is V female or male [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Haruki-kun

2013-03-21, 06:47 PM

1st if some one else came up with this first please let me know cuase i want to be sure i don't want hateful comments saying i copied or anything
2 yes i am new if that is a problem lay off you were new to once
3 this thread is wether you think V is male or female and your reasons for beliving so if anything i unclear please let me know and i will try and fix it.

It's a common question, but it has, thus far, never actually been answered. The Giant doesn't want to reveal it, so it's down to fan theories and speculation, which some might find conclusive, while others might consider pointless.

So... the answer to that is "whatever you think s/he is". And yes, it has been discussed before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4918), the discussions pop up every once while

rgrekejin

2013-03-21, 06:56 PM

So... the answer to that is "whatever you think s/he is".

Yes! I knew it!

Dr.Epic

2013-03-21, 07:16 PM

Answering the OP:

Yes.

I disagree!!!

Obscure Blade

2013-03-21, 07:25 PM

S/he's a Quantum Elf, whose gender is indeterminate until observed.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-21, 07:29 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10

"Q: Is Vaarsuvius male or female?
A: I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception.not the actual reality of the situation."

thereaper

2013-03-21, 08:39 PM

Vaarsuvius is a hermaphrodite.

JackRose

2013-03-21, 08:39 PM

Probably. However, V might also be genderqueer, or perhaps another gender extant among elves.

MoonCat

2013-03-21, 09:26 PM

Obvious troll is obvious.

Doxkid

2013-03-21, 09:34 PM

It's pretty hard to milk a picture of a goat. Please note that I did not say impossible.

The Second

2013-03-21, 09:45 PM

When V put on V's robes, V entered a state in which V was either male or female. Until the robes are removed, V will remain in this state.

To this date, there have been no recorded instances of the robes being removed, except possibly in the presence of Haley, but Haley does not appear to be talking.

KillianHawkeye

2013-03-21, 09:52 PM

To this date, there have been no recorded instances of the robes being removed, except possibly in the presence of Haley, but Haley does not appear to be talking.

V was without robes after recovering from being turned into a lizard, but the Black Dragon of Starmetal Cave used its tail to block everyone's view.

Eurthantian

2013-03-21, 10:03 PM

S/he's a Quantum Elf, whose gender is indeterminate until observed.

Schrödinger's Elf?

Doxkid

2013-03-21, 10:10 PM

...the Black Dragon of Starmetal Cave used its tail to block everyone's view.

Wait wait wait. That was part of the dragon?! I thought it was a clear answer that Vi was male...

mrzomby

2013-03-21, 10:20 PM

Yes, V is female or male.

Bravo

2013-03-21, 11:09 PM

Since V rooms with Haley in the inn (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html), it seems reasonable to assume that Vaarsuvius is either female or gay. Or a hermaphrodite, I suppose, but as they say: when you hear hoofbeats, you should think of horses, not zebras. Then AGAIN, this comic has already demonstrated that million-to-one shots are practically guaranteed.

One thing I'm relatively certain of is that V is not a straight male.

Dumbestupidiot

2013-03-21, 11:12 PM

V is like, totally a reflection of your state of mind at the time, dude. I mean, whoa, hir robes feel so soft and vibratey. Dude you need to see this man. Everytime I open my right eye he is male, and with my left she is female. Far out.

Ron Miel

2013-03-21, 11:17 PM

It's pretty hard to milk a picture of a goat. Please note that I did not say impossible.

I'd say about a dozen, maybe more on weekends.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-21, 11:32 PM

One thing I'm relatively certain of is that V is not a straight male.

Why?

An elf might not want to room with "the boys" for reasons besides its gender.

Gift Jeraff

2013-03-21, 11:36 PM

jere7my

2013-03-21, 11:45 PM

Why?

An elf might not want to room with "the boys" for reasons besides its gender.

If you look at strip 123, it was actually Haley's call that they room together.

I think 123 offers the strongest argument that Vaarsuvius is biologically female, or at least not presenting as male to her companions. When Haley says "I'm surprised you don't have your own set [of what they assume are boobs]," and Vaarsuvius replies "I do, actually, but they are not nearly so large," the eavesdroppers don't seem startled, either by the idea that Vaarsuvius has boobs or that Haley would expect her to have them.

If they were all pretty sure that Vaarsuvius was male, that would be a very odd exchange to overhear. The responses we see could read as, "Oo, hot girl-on-girl action!" or, conceivably, "Oo, finally we get confirmation that Vaarsuvius has lady-parts!" I don't think "Oo, Vaarsuvius, who we all know is a dude, apparently has boobs, and Haley expected him to!" is really on the table.

Beyond that, Haley refers to the folks in the other room as "the boys," which would be an odd construction to use when talking to a male member of the group. And they naturally split a six-person group up by putting four into one room and two in the other.

So, personally, I think it's very likely that Vaarsuvius is female, and if she's not then nobody in the Order (except possibly Haley) knows one way or the other.

Zmeoaice

2013-03-21, 11:48 PM

Yes, V is female or male.

Or both. Or neither

Haley is V's closest friend among the Order. If Haley was a guy or asexual, V still would have likely only roomed with him/it.

Really?

MaximKat

2013-03-21, 11:53 PM

nobody in the Order (except possibly Haley) knows one way or the other.

This is the correct answer

Codyage

2013-03-22, 01:16 AM

Cavenskull

2013-03-22, 02:16 AM

This is the correct answer
So you really think that nobody in the Order (except possibly Haley) knows one way or the other? And here all this time I thought that at least Vaarsuvius would know. But then again, maybe not. :smalltongue:

JackRackham

2013-03-22, 03:08 AM

Vaarsuvius is Schrodinger's Elf. Until it is disrobed it is both male and female.

MaximKat

2013-03-22, 03:31 AM

So you really think that nobody in the Order (except possibly Haley) knows one way or the other? And here all this time I thought that at least Vaarsuvius would know. But then again, maybe not. :smalltongue:

Well, we know for a fact that V can't tell gender in humans (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html).

Mike Havran

2013-03-22, 04:14 AM

This is true.

Could we compile a list of things that refer to V as Male, and a list of things that refer to V as Female? Then we can see what V is most COMMONLY refereed as. Sure it won't prove V's gender, but it will give us insight to how other things in the world see V.

Example: In this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) strip. Redcloak and Tsukiko refer to V as a female. So we know that Redcloak and Tsukiko see V as a female. (At least at that current time.)

That won't help much. Other character refer to V's gender in order to balance things out. For example, Sabine calls him "elf dude" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html), but calls her "sister" a while later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html).

Nevertheless, V is clearly female :smalltongue:

Ceaon

2013-03-22, 04:25 AM

Chessgeek

2013-03-22, 05:21 AM

I personally feel that V was male at first, due to the whole power-hungry thing. But immediately after* the soul splice ends we see V with the longer, more feminine hair, and regretful, lamenting the wasted opportunity. V becomes much more pensive and more concerned about the well-being of others, which suggests a female character.

But I don't know if Rich even bothers assigning a gender to Vaarsuvius when he writes the script. He's stated that he won't tell since it's irrelevant to the story, and I have to agree. V's character need not have an established gender, and confirmation either way would just be a letdown to the folks who want to bicker about it, so why would he spoil the fun?

My 2 ¢

*Yes I know, V has long hair during the splice. But (as far as the elf is concerned) Vaarsuvius isn't acting as it would normally, and there's no Familicide to regret yet, which explains the delay between hair change and personality change.

KillianHawkeye

2013-03-22, 07:29 AM

Example: In this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) strip. Redcloak and Tsukiko refer to V as a female. So we know that Redcloak and Tsukiko see V as a female. (At least at that current time.)

Yet in the strip immediately preceding that one, Xykon refers to V as "Mr.-or-Mrs. Spock."

allenw

2013-03-22, 07:38 AM

Haley is V's closest friend among the Order. If Haley was a guy or asexual, V still would have likely only roomed with him/it.

Plus: V is married, and Haley knew it.

Durkon *could* have tried to find out with a Commune spell (Is V Male? Is V Female?). However, since Rich is the quasi-GM, the answer would probably be "Irrelevant" (which as I recall was a valid response to the spell in 1st edition). :smalltongue:

Peanut Gallery

2013-03-22, 11:07 AM

Every time someone suggests a personality trait indicates V's gender I want to punch a wall. Gender stereotypes are a pet peeve of mine.

That said, I would consider Varsuvius male because he was drawn with a definite gender in mind, and that gender had no breasts. And I don't think a D&D comic would have started socially aware enough to wave the "women come in all body types" flag. Honestly I wouldn't mind being proven wrong on that point.

However, I would consider Varsuvius female because she shares the exact same body type and hair cut as Kristen from 5 foot step. And that comic has an Elan, (teen) Haley, and Roy look-alike prototype. And making the (then) D&D newbie be the OOTS rules lawyer know-it-all has poetic justice.

Mishri

2013-03-22, 11:56 AM

When I re-read the strips I found the first time someone(random NPC in a shop I believe) called V a Him (or He I think it actually was). up to that point it was always gender neutral, So I assumed it was a mistake, and The Giant slipped, then played it off by saying people will refer to him/her as they see her/him.

But, I like the argument that Haley chose V as a roommate at the inn... If she were going to choose a male you'd think she'd choose Elan. Even if they were closest. At the time she didn't want Elan to know she liked him, but she still flirted with him quite a bit in the earlier comics.

But wait, isn't V's mate a cupcake baker who stays at home with the kids? .... :D

So my Final answer is, V is a male. The Giant might try making V seem feminine but that is just how male elves are, and female elves are super feminine, by human standards. Just as a female orc is nearly as masculine as a male human :smallbiggrin: (many humans assume that a female orc was a male, many humans assume elves are female, clearly that first random NPC spent a lot of time with the elves and could discern the difference.)

I'm looking forward to V's gender reveal party. (Basically the new baby shower for those of you who don't know)

Astrella

2013-03-22, 12:05 PM

But wait, isn't V's mate a cupcake baker who stays at home with the kids? .... :D

Cause men can't stay at home, right?

-----

I actually find the fact that we don't know V's gender pretty amusing / annoying cause people have this strong desire to find out and it brings out all the gender related biases people believe in.

Kish

2013-03-22, 12:26 PM

But wait, isn't V's mate a cupcake baker who stays at home with the kids? .... :D

So my Final answer is, V is a male. The Giant might try making V seem feminine but that is just how male elves are, and female elves are super feminine, by human standards.
Unless you're suggesting that Inkyrius is super feminine by human standards, I'd have to call that a truly spectacular own goal.

JustWantedToSay

2013-03-22, 12:29 PM

Re: Strip 123
As spartan as i can be on the details, but i suppose i should still spoiler it so:
Haley and V met each other before applying to Roy.

That's naturally why Haley chose to room with V. Thus it is not evidence of gender.

___

Personally I say female, just because The Giant has shown very good gender neutral balance throughout the story. So i think a 4m-2f party is more likely than a 5m-1f party. Assuming a 50-50 gender chance per character, 4m2f is 23.44% chance. 5m1f is 9.38%

(Double each of those percentages if you want to include the opposite distribution)

ETA: even if the distribution were 70%male, it would still be slightly more like to have two females than one.

Obscure Blade

2013-03-22, 02:48 PM

That said, I would consider Varsuvius male because he was drawn with a definite gender in mind, and that gender had no breasts. And I don't think a D&D comic would have started socially aware enough to wave the "women come in all body types" flag.
But a D&D comic could easily be started with the "elves all look girly" cliche in mind as a target for later mocking.

Codyage

2013-03-22, 03:06 PM

Hmm, how many Elves/Drow have we seen in the entire comic, with female and male body shapes?

This one has V with a Square (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html)body.

While in this comic we see a Drow female. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) Her body isn't square. Lirian's body isn't square either. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

Has there been any Elves/Drow in the comics who are Female with square bodies?

If not, V may most likely be male by physiology. At least without the Robe.

Edit: Found another Drow with a non square body. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html

I am still trying to find all the Elves during the Resistance strips.

The Pilgrim

2013-03-22, 03:54 PM

Shouldn't we rather be discussing Belkar's alignment?

Ceaon

2013-03-22, 04:07 PM

But wait, isn't V's mate a cupcake baker who stays at home with the kids? .... :D

So my Final answer is, V is a male.

I'm sure you mean no offense, I mean, it looks like a tongue-in-cheek kind of remark, but comments like these are one of the things that make me wish that V's sex, gender and sexual preference would be revealed. The lack of certainty makes all kind of silly gender biases come to the surface, which irritates me more than it should.

Mishri

2013-03-22, 05:57 PM

Hmm? you guys are all assuming something here, I just made a statement about V's mate and left it with a ... and a smiley face. Any conclusions being drawn are entirely in your mind. :smallwink:

ahh I see... you correlated that statement to my conclusion. I explained why I reached that reasoning which has nothing to do with his mate. :smalltongue:

Dumbestupidiot

2013-03-22, 06:06 PM

Also say that we know V's mate to be definitively female, that doesn't mean that V can't be a lesbian as opposed to a straight man.

redzimmer

2013-03-22, 06:19 PM

Wrong. Varsuvius is an elf. You can tell from this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html) comic.

In panel 5 you can see the pointed ear.

Mutant Sheep

2013-03-22, 07:24 PM

Also say that we know V's mate to be definitively female, that doesn't mean that V can't be a lesbian as opposed to a straight man.
....How do you know? "Adopted children" and "other parent" were all we got as translations from the Elvish. They could be two hermaphodite Yoda's under a polymorph for all we know. So I don't see how you "know" that V's mate is a female.

Dr.Epic

2013-03-22, 07:28 PM

V is a Namekian. It totally explains the pointy ears and why V hates Dragon Ball Evolution so much.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-22, 07:32 PM

So I don't see how you "know" that V's mate is a female.

Pretty sure that meant "if we knew, which we don't".

nonamearisto

2013-03-22, 07:52 PM

I believe that the lack of knowledge about V being male or female is a commentary on how many elves are drawn or else presented in an androgynous manner. That, and it is something that makes V more distinct, given that until recently, V was a pretty bland character.

If I had to guess, I'd say male. There's more to that guess, but in keeping with the rules, it would get controversial and political, so I can't say it in this forum.

The_Tentacle

2013-03-22, 08:12 PM

First of all, this topic has been talked to several deaths, with raises in between (at one point we needed a true resurrection).

I would venture the guess that absolutely no one outside of the comic knows what gender V is. Sure, Haley knows in comic, but the Giant doesn't know, and if he doesn't know, then no one knows. It's like me saying that a character in my book knows how the universe started existence. They know in the story, but the writer doesn't know, and no one knows outside of the story.

JustWantedToSay

2013-03-22, 08:16 PM

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-22, 08:20 PM

And V's mate is named Inkyrius/Kyrie. I think that just means the suffix gives us no information.

Kish

2013-03-22, 08:44 PM

Real world stats: "~us" is by a large majority a male name ending. But then V's partner calls V 'Suvie.' By a similar margin, "~ie" is mostly female." Well played Giant. (Also 'V~' names are more likely female.)
Also, "~us" signifies male...in Latin and Latin-based names. And the Latin language has neither the aa form, nor the ky form.

DrBurr

2013-03-22, 08:54 PM

I also read V's dialogue in a kinda spockish voice so I considered him male then I came on the forum and saw the debate.

My brother has opposite opinion he thinks V is female and his reasoning is similar its just the voice he assigned her.

An Enemy Spy

2013-03-22, 09:04 PM

I remember the discussion of what would happen if V put on the belt of gender changing. My personal theory is that s/he would turn into an equally androgynous version of the other sex, and think it was obvious to everyone else, loudly complaining about it in terms that don't actually reveal what gender s/he is?

Personally, I think the real question is does V know that nobody else knows what s/he is?

Cavenskull

2013-03-22, 10:58 PM

Real world stats: "~us" is by a large majority a male name ending. But then V's partner calls V 'Suvie.' By a similar margin, "~ie" is mostly female." Well played Giant. (Also 'V~' names are more likely female.)

Freddie
Eddie
Johnnie
Tommie
Frankie
Jimmie
Jamie
Larrie
Donnie
Ronnie
Howie
Louie
Ralphie
Paulie

Include names that end in 'y', and the list gets bigger. The hard 'e' sound in general is pretty common on the end of names, regardless of gender.

Bravo

2013-03-23, 03:53 AM

Tragak

2013-03-23, 10:35 AM

Thrax

2013-03-23, 10:37 AM

I think V was originally meant to be male, then made ambiguous due to fan reception. And because I believe author's intention is more important than reader's delusion, I think of V as male. Inkyrius might be male as well IMO.

Bulldog Psion

2013-03-23, 10:41 AM

I'm reasonably sure that V doesn't know what V's gender is.

I'm serious -- I don't think the elf is really capable of perceiving gender at all. Including his own.

That's my theory, anyway.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-23, 03:34 PM

V is not incapable of discerning gender. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html)

martianmister

2013-03-23, 03:41 PM

V is not incapable of discerning gender. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html)

Also, he wrote her real gender on Roy's application form (On the Origin of PCs).

Zmeoaice

2013-03-23, 04:25 PM

Every time someone suggests a personality trait indicates V's gender I want to punch a wall. Gender stereotypes are a pet peeve of mine.

Me too.

That said, I would consider Varsuvius male because he was drawn with a definite gender in mind, and that gender had no breasts. And I don't think a D&D comic would have started socially aware enough to wave the "women come in all body types" flag. Honestly I wouldn't mind being proven wrong on that point.

I think it is possible that V was intended to be male, since Roy calls zer V-man, although the robes probably cover zer breasts.

However, I think Kyrie is male since ze is wearing form fitting clothing but has a flat chest, as well as box shaped waist.

Kish

2013-03-23, 05:04 PM

I think it is possible that V was intended to be male, since Roy calls zer V-man, although the robes probably cover zer breasts.
I used to think that. Then Rich posted clarifying the chain of events.

When he decided to make Vaarsuvius ambiguously gendered, the latest comic was #8. He decided to tilt Vaarsuvius' apparent gender against what a majority of his audience believed. He polled his six-member IRC D&D group, and determined that four of them believed Vaarsuvius to be female, while two believed Vaarsuvius to be male. So, "V-Man" appeared in the next strip. If the poll had gone the other way, a similarly unambiguous reference to Vaarsuvius as female would have been there.

In retrospect, Rich said that he considers he made two mistakes there: He assumed that the IRC group's numbers were a representative sample of the total comic audience's numbers, and he thought that a clear statement of the gender people were leaning against would promote ambiguity.

bogaboga

2013-03-23, 05:24 PM

if i recall correctly rich referred to V as male in his description (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639) (round 5) of order vs miko.

Vinyadan

2013-03-23, 05:49 PM

If people on the forum had not begun wondering about his sex, I would have always assumed that he was a male and I would have never noticed the ambiguity. For me, he counts as male, as I had assumed at the beginning. Haley is much more feminine. His partner, I don't know, could be anything.

To tell the true, what really made me thinking of him as a male was the ending of his name by -us, which really is no proof and is actually a mistake on my side. I also thought that the name came from Warsaw, and not from Vesuvius.

MasterGhandalf

2013-03-23, 07:18 PM

Tend to prefer a female Vaarsuvius, myself (assuming here that she's not very curvy and her robes hide her body shape effectively, and non-elves in universe are generally bad at telling an elf's gender purely from voice and face, hence the varied reactions). Can't put a particular finger on it, but female!V just works better for me.

Have no strong feelings either way about Inkyrius.

Codyage

2013-03-23, 08:35 PM

All though I think V as a female would help balance the party male to female ratio, I believe he is male.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html

The strip just makes it far to hard for me to believe that V is female with a square body shape. When all other drow's and elves who were female had curved bodies, and confirmed male drow/elves had square ones.

Also on panel three, you can V pulling the robe over himself, where we can see a good portion of his back side, and see it doesn't curve. That with both sides of his body visible in panel two, makes me believe his body is square shaped.

So unless we have seen a female with a square body that wasn't a child, I believe V is male.

Kish

2013-03-23, 08:38 PM

So unless we have seen a female with a square body that wasn't a child
"The Blue Boy."
*kish* "You know, 'the Blue Boy' could be female."
*multiple people whose names I have forgotten* "No, his body is obviously square."
*"The Blue Boy"* "My name is Miko Miyazaki!"

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-23, 08:46 PM

Is that a reference to people thinking Miko must be male before she is "unmasked"?

Codyage

2013-03-23, 08:55 PM

"The Blue Boy."
*kish* "You know, 'the Blue Boy' could be female."
*multiple people whose names I have forgotten* "No, his body is obviously square."
*"The Blue Boy"* "My name is Miko Miyazaki!"

Problem with that one. Miko is wearing a robe...like V!

When Miko loses the robe we see, her breasts, and her curved body. Attributed to FEMALE members of the world.

When V's robe is off we see a square body. Attributed to MALE members of the world.

I mean we KNOW robes can hide genders. Except in my example V isn't wearing a robe!

Kish

2013-03-23, 09:12 PM

Is that a reference to people thinking Miko must be male before she is "unmasked"?
It's a paraphrase of an actual exchange that took place. Before #200, obviously.

cutekitty13

2013-03-23, 11:26 PM

i have had a experiance in a D&D game were a female character with a low charisma was porcieved as a man i think V has a low charisma does she not so is it possible that her low charisma score could make her precieved as a man when realy a girl.

MoonCat

2013-03-24, 01:39 AM

Guys, there is already a thread for this and one that has special permission to be resurrected. There is no point in continuing the debate here in an essential duplicate that started as a badly done trolling attempt.

Souju

2013-03-24, 02:25 AM

V's gender is obscure so people will keep making threads discussing V's gender being obscure :3

MoonCat

2013-03-24, 11:06 AM

V's gender is obscure so people will keep making threads discussing V's gender being obscure :3

Yes, which is why there is an entire archive of official threads that are allowed to be resurrected. So we don't end up with a billion threads on the matter. Some with worse spelling than others.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201481&page=28) it is.

NinaNymph

2013-03-26, 04:52 PM

I belive personaly v is a girl if you think v is a boy fine by me

Grogmir

2013-03-26, 07:09 PM

That said, I would consider Varsuvius male because he was drawn with a definite gender in mind, and that gender had no breasts. And I don't think a D&D comic would have started socially aware enough to wave the "women come in all body types" flag. Honestly I wouldn't mind being proven wrong on that point.

I agree with this for very similar logic. Now I want to start this by a qualification. I do NOT think the giant is sexist. Which of course means it'll probably come across like that...
But he consciously wrote these characters, as a male myself that has done a little writing (for both DnD and non DnD material - nothing in the giants league mind - not claiming that either!) I know my go to default is male. If I have to make a character up on the spot more than likely it'll be male. I have to consciously "Make" a character female.

As we know the giant had a definite gender in mind for V, and as the quote says, I don't think that The Giants initial concept was, a women that i'll draw ambiguously so people aren't sure if male or female. I've always believed that V was intended to be male.

Have a look at Comic One again... Panel 1. to me there is no trace of femininity in that drawing of V,

Now. that is no longer the case, The Giant picked up on the forums initial questions (and probably in one of the only times actually reacted to it) V's ambiguous gender became part of the character of V. The Giant now, I believe, honestly doesn't "know" what gender V is. Or at least tries to use the Ambiguous area to explore peoples reactions to sexuality.

Belkster11

2013-03-27, 06:44 AM

I think V's gender is purposefully left up for grabs so we can decide for ourselves whether she's male or female.

Obviously, I think she's a female because it helps to balance out the OotS.

F.Harr

2013-03-27, 11:30 AM

Vinyadan

2013-03-27, 02:00 PM

The only reason why I suspect V is male is becasue of the "-us" ending which occures in Latin, appropriated for V, I suspect. Also, "Suvie" is obviously a nick-name. A thin reed, I admit. I also think V and Inkuryus are the same gender.

-us is masculine in Latin adjectives of the first class, but not always by names. In the second declension malus is feminine, as a vast number of tree names ending in -us, and there are also neuter names ending by -us, although non-standard (pelagus, virus, vulgus). In the third declension iuventus is feminine, and there is a whole class of such names, starting by virtus and ending by servitus. manus and tribus, just to name a couple of names from the fourth declension, are feminine.

And this is counting just the nominatives. You probably think them to be very important, because they are the ones found in the dictionary, but they are just a case as important as anyone else. Italian words come from the Latin accusative, just to give you an example (although they often look like an ablative).

I have to say, however, that I don't remember a single feminine personal Latin name ending with -us. So, this could be something. Aarindarius also ends with -us. Has anyone found where the name came from? It is really similar to [V]aar[suv/indar]ius .

The ending -ius must be very common in elfnames, as even Zz'dri used it for his disguise (and counting Inkyrius). The ending -ius was also very, very common by Latin masculine person names: Antonius, Caius, Lucius, Publius, Valerius, Claudius, Tiberius... At the same time, Zz'dri has always been called a male, as far as I know. Could this mean something? But Poluzius has a z in it, which was no Latin letter (it was introduced later) and is hard to find in Latin names.

My personal opinion is that elves use a crystallized form of genitive -ius as an ending for personal name and that it is the same for man and woman (like second class adjectives in Latin).

Ah, how nice to talk about inconclusive matters! :smallbiggrin:

Now I wonder if Poluzius comes from Puteoli, after Pompei and Vesuvius...

SaintRidley

2013-03-27, 02:03 PM

V is not incapable of discerning gender. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html)

Tangentially related - V does not comment upon the dragon's gender, in part because it cannot be determined. The dragon could easily be Girard's grandfather, but just as easily be Girard's grandmother.

Kish

2013-03-27, 02:12 PM

Huh? I don't think Vaarsuvius' reason for not noting that the dragon who, three times, impregnated the human woman s/he refers to as a mother, was male is that s/he thinks that might not be the case.

SaintRidley

2013-03-27, 02:23 PM

Huh? I don't think Vaarsuvius' reason for not noting that the dragon who, three times, impregnated the human woman s/he refers to as a mother, was male is that s/he thinks that might not be the case.

I'm saying the dragon's gender is indeterminate. It is also irrelevant, given the human being very much identifiable in gender, and therefore what V bases the conclusion on. The irrelevance to the conclusion is the big reason V doesn't comment, but I think the indeterminacy is a contributing factor to that irrelevancy.

ti'esar

2013-03-29, 10:54 PM

I choose to view V as female because in fiction, male characters who neglect their families, and male characters who seek ultimate knowledge, and power-mad male characters, are all too common. Whereas a female character with those traits is basically unheard of... even female villains only seem to want power in order to help them in some love-related matter. In fiction, male characters seem to be able to have ANY motivation, whereas female characters tend to have "love or sex or children" in there somewhere. So for me, viewing V as female makes her a fairly unique character, whereas as a male he'd actually sort of be a dime-a-dozen.

I've always thought this way. I don't actually view V as having a gender at all, but this is why I use female pronouns for her - if I absolutely had to make a choice, that's the one I'd prefer.

Tangentially related - V does not comment upon the dragon's gender, in part because it cannot be determined. The dragon could easily be Girard's grandfather, but just as easily be Girard's grandmother.

I'm not sure I understood what point you're making here.

denthor

2013-03-30, 12:28 AM

Please see the eight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/GuestStrips.html) guest comic down.

Now ask yourself do you really want to know the answer?

Haleth

2013-03-31, 04:35 AM

I was positive Vaarsuvius was male. Until I started going on this forum. Now I'm completely unsure. :smallconfused: There are so many arguments for both sides...

And I'm not sure this has been brought up before, but are V's children adopted? Their complexion and hair color are very dissimilar to both Vaarsuvius and Inkyrius.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-31, 04:43 AM

Yes, V calls them his/her "adopted progeny" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html).

Koo Rehtorb

2013-03-31, 11:12 AM

I choose to believe she's a gay woman.

Not out of any evidence in comic, but because both women and gay characters are underrepresented in the Order and it'd help restore some balance.

Themrys

2013-03-31, 01:11 PM

I agree with this for very similar logic. Now I want to start this by a qualification. I do NOT think the giant is sexist. Which of course means it'll probably come across like that...
But he consciously wrote these characters, as a male myself that has done a little writing (for both DnD and non DnD material - nothing in the giants league mind - not claiming that either!) I know my go to default is male. If I have to make a character up on the spot more than likely it'll be male. I have to consciously "Make" a character female.

That "male is default, female is exception" thinking is the proof that society as a whole is sexist. Therefore, the giant is sexist, too. Not more so than any other random writer, but still.

This is why I fear V was meant to be male, although I'd prefer hir to be female to balance things out, and to have a non-sexualized female group member in the OotS.

Regarding V's mate, I'm quite sure that, if Inky has a sex, it's male. He very obviously doesn't have a gender in elvish language, and no gender role in elvish society, but he looks male to me.

The Pilgrim

2013-03-31, 03:14 PM

When I began reading this comic I assumed V was female (pink magic signature, pastel robe and hair colors, haircut, party gender balance, intimacy with Haley, etc...) I needed to read the forums to realize the gender ambiguity joke.

Inky has always looked male to me, even as I already know about the androgynous theme.

Starwaster

2013-03-31, 10:13 PM

WoolenSocks

2013-03-31, 11:08 PM

I have to say, however, that I don't remember a single feminine personal Latin name ending with -us.

How about Venus? :P

jere7my

2013-03-31, 11:15 PM

How about Venus? :P

Indeed, though Venus/Veneris is actually third declension. There are a number of rare but attested feminine tree names in the second declension: Pinus, Laurus, Quercus.

blauregen

2013-04-01, 01:28 AM

From my litlle FR-knowledge, at least one prominent wizard was - before hir cremation - known to ocassionally jump the gender and sometimes species-barrier.

I am not sure whether the question is applicable to high-lvel wizards beyond 'prefers to present as'.

F.Harr

2013-04-01, 06:10 PM

-us is masculine in Latin adjectives of the first class, but not always by names. In the second declension malus is feminine, as a vast number of tree names ending in -us, and there are also neuter names ending by -us, although non-standard (pelagus, virus, vulgus). In the third declension iuventus is feminine, and there is a whole class of such names, starting by virtus and ending by servitus. manus and tribus, just to name a couple of names from the fourth declension, are feminine. . .

Excelent points, all.

F.Harr

2013-04-03, 10:56 AM

XanKrieger

2013-04-03, 12:43 PM

Guys please, they are both clearly hermaphrodites hence the use of s/he. V is clearly both. It's completely obvious if you think about it, without thinking about it.

hamishspence

2013-04-03, 01:44 PM

Another option is "neither"- there's a character in Cityscape which is described as being genderless- neither male nor female.

ObadiahtheSlim

2013-04-03, 02:30 PM

Is V female or male?

Answer: Yes.

Mando Knight

2013-04-03, 02:32 PM

Is V female or male?

Answer: Yes.

Actually, I would go with probably. There's nothing that strictly states that elves in the Stick-world have binary gender/sex.

goodyarn

2013-04-03, 04:58 PM

sims796

2013-04-03, 05:00 PM

Actually, I would go with probably. There's nothing that strictly states that elves in the Stick-world have binary gender/sex.

I'd go with both.

Zmeoaice

2013-04-03, 05:57 PM

What fascinates me is that Belkar, who does not otherwise seem to be attracted to males, gets drunk and smooches V.

Well, he was really reeeeaaallly drunk.

The Dark Fiddler

2013-04-03, 06:01 PM

if i recall correctly rich referred to V as male in his description (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639) (round 5) of order vs miko.

He is frequently used as a gender-neutral pronoun in English, since the only other option, it, is typically used for objects rather than people.

Anyway, I'm surprised that nobody's figured this out yet.

V is a half-doppelganger elf, and has the ability to change genders whenever he wants. She uses it all the time.

Dr.Epic

2013-04-03, 06:17 PM

Rule 63?:smallconfused:

sims796

2013-04-03, 06:20 PM

Rule 63?:smallconfused:

That's illegal to mention in 13 states.

Shadowknight12

2013-04-04, 03:14 AM

I choose to believe she's a gay woman.

Not out of any evidence in comic, but because both women and gay characters are underrepresented in the Order and it'd help restore some balance.

These are my thoughts as well. Save for that one gay cop in Cliffport, whose sexuality was used as part of a joke, the whole "homoerotic gladiators" arc (which was also a constant source of comedy), and Sabine, Haley, Nale and Elan's bicuriosity/bisexuality (which were also all jokes), there really haven't been that many instances of LGBT+ people in the strip, so I take what I can get.

Women are also quite underrepresented as major characters in the comic as a whole. Miko, Tsukiko, Crystal and the Black Dragon got unceremoniously killed off as soon as they served their narrative purpose, Celia was... controversial (and now is more or less out of the comic until the end), and almost all the protagonists and antagonists are male.

Themrys

2013-04-04, 06:08 AM

What fascinates me is that Belkar, who does not otherwise seem to be attracted to males, gets drunk and smooches V.

Also...in Don't Split the Party, the chart shows that Belkar "wants to shtup" V.

I don't take this as proof that V is female (although I personally do think "female" when I think of V), I just think it's interesting in terms of what it says about Belkar's psychology.

Belkar has been shown to happily flirt with people he knows are male, just to make them uncomfortable. I'd say that was his motivation to kiss V, too, only that he wouldn't have acted on that impulse if he hadn't been drunk, since he knew V would take revenge.
Nothing to do with attraction at all.

(Of course, if Belkar's sense of smell was really good enough to distinguish Elan from his identical twin, something that is impossible in real life, even for dogs, he should be able to determine V's sex by smell, too ... unless V is a hermaphrodite. Or a person with just one X-Chromosome and no reproductive organs at all, which would explain the adopted children)

The adopted children ... why did Inky and V adopt them? In our world, one would assume that a couple adopts children because they can't have children of their own, or, very rarely, to show off their generosity.

However, elves could have a much more closely knit social structure, which might require a young couple to adopt the orphans of even distant relatives (or even people not related to them at all) instead of having children of their own.

If V and Inky cannot reproduce (or don't want to), they could be:

-both female
-both male
-female and male, but one or both of them infertile
-Inky male and V female, but V not willing to be pregnant for nine years, or whatever it takes
-Inky male and V hermaphrodite, same as above
-one or both of them completely sexless (no reproductive organs)
-one or both of them asexual

(Of course, Inky could be female/hermaphrodite and not willing to go through pregnancy, too, but it's less likely, as V obviously is the career-person in this family)

The idea that elves don't have two sexes but four (female, male, hermaphrodite, nothing at all) is fascinating.

martianmister

2013-04-04, 09:09 AM

Another option is "neither"- there's a character in Cityscape which is described as being genderless- neither male nor female.

Guys please, they are both clearly hermaphrodites hence the use of s/he. V is clearly both. It's completely obvious if you think about it, without thinking about it.

That's unlikely. In the prequel On the Origin of PCs, V fills out an application form, and did spill some ink blot where the gender blank is. When Roy calls this to V's attention, V said that it was a quill malfunction, and suggests using owl feathers in the future. When Roy asks V to write in the correct answer next to the blot, V, assumed Roy could see what gender he/she is, and doesn't think the issue is something worth wasting his/her time, tells him to feel free to put it in himself, if it's that crucial. Roy decides that it's really not that important.

Reathin

2013-04-05, 11:37 PM

V strikes me as slightly female, but when I think about it too hard, it becomes LESS clear. The more I think about it, the more V seems to occupy a weird sort of quantum gender state. If I just relax, my instinct just leans toward female.

Her mate, on the other hand, struck me as immediately male, oddly. Like, zero doubt in my mind.

Razanir

2013-04-05, 11:49 PM

V is not to be discussed. No mind control here preventing his/her gender from being released

F.Harr

2013-04-06, 11:03 AM

He is frequently used as a gender-neutral pronoun in English, since the only other option, it, is typically used for objects rather than people.

Anyway, I'm surprised that nobody's figured this out yet.

V is a half-doppelganger elf, and has the ability to change genders whenever he wants. She uses it all the time.

That could be fun.

The adopted children ... why did Inky and V adopt them? In our world, one would assume that a couple adopts children because they can't have children of their own, or, very rarely, to show off their generosity.

However, elves could have a much more closely knit social structure, which might require a young couple to adopt the orphans of even distant relatives (or even people not related to them at all) instead of having children of their own.

If V and Inky cannot reproduce (or don't want to), they could be:

-both female
-both male
-female and male, but one or both of them infertile
-Inky male and V female, but V not willing to be pregnant for nine years, or whatever it takes
-Inky male and V hermaphrodite, same as above
-one or both of them completely sexless (no reproductive organs)
-one or both of them asexual

(Of course, Inky could be female/hermaphrodite and not willing to go through pregnancy, too, but it's less likely, as V obviously is the career-person in this family)

The idea that elves don't have two sexes but four (female, male, hermaphrodite, nothing at all) is fascinating.

Interesting, all.

I remember the discussion of what would happen if V put on the belt of gender changing. My personal theory is that s/he would turn into an equally androgynous version of the other sex, and think it was obvious to everyone else, loudly complaining about it in terms that don't actually reveal what gender s/he is?

Personally, I think the real question is does V know that nobody else knows what s/he is?

I don't think so. Although I like your idea of what would happen if the Big V put on the sex-changing belt.

F.Harr

2013-04-06, 11:08 AM

By the way, I can't find this post to reply to it, but someone was discussing about how Romen women were, at one point in their history, named after their fathers. And if there were several girls, they were refered to as "the Elder", "the Skinny", "the fat" etc. Some of those are nicknames I don't think I'd want if I were a girl.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-04-06, 08:37 PM

There are very many reasons to adopt children besides infertility or generosity.

Zmeoaice

2013-04-07, 12:05 AM

I don't think so.

Well ze did mention that turning invisible while going to the bathroom frustrated Belkar

The Dark Fiddler

2013-04-07, 06:52 AM

That could be fun.

There's also the theory that V
is actually a set of twins, male V and female V. They're both secretly ninjas, and switch who is onscreen between comics and panels.

F.Harr

2013-04-07, 10:53 AM

Well ze did mention that turning invisible while going to the bathroom frustrated Belkar

That doesn't mean they understand why it's frustrating.

There's also the theory that V
is actually a set of twins, male V and female V. They're both secretly ninjas, and switch who is onscreen between comics and panels.

I don't know if could be fun.

I love the bow-tie, by the way.

sam79

2013-04-07, 11:46 AM

I was positive Vaarsuvius was male. Until I started going on this forum. Now I'm completely unsure. :smallconfused: There are so many arguments for both sides...

Interesting; I was convinced she was female until I came to the forums! I still think of her as female, in fact, despite the deliberate ambiguity and the many good arguments on the other side.

And for what it's worth: I assumed Inkurius was male (based on his body-shape, mainly), and thus that there relationship was a heterosexual one.

KoboldRevenge

2013-04-07, 01:06 PM

Female since it creates a better balance in the team. Instead of Haley being the one girl against the four boys. It becomes 2 vs 4.

An even match?

Themrys

2013-04-07, 04:50 PM

That's unlikely. In the prequel On the Origin of PCs, V fills out an application form, and did spill some ink blot where the gender blank is. When Roy calls this to V's attention, V said that it was a quill malfunction, and suggests using owl feathers in the future. When Roy asks V to write in the correct answer next to the blot, V, assumed Roy could see what gender he/she is, and doesn't think the issue is something worth wasting his/her time, tells him to feel free to put it in himself, if it's that crucial. Roy decides that it's really not that important.

That could be V tricking Roy into accepting the application form as it is. V says it was a quill malfunction, but we don't know whether that is true.
Maybe V just doesn't want to have a clearly established gender identity.

martianmister

2013-04-07, 05:49 PM

That could be V tricking Roy into accepting the application form as it is. V says it was a quill malfunction, but we don't know whether that is true.
Maybe V just doesn't want to have a clearly established gender identity.

1. Occam's razor.

2. Why would he/she lie about her/his nature?

Themrys

2013-04-07, 07:24 PM

1. Occam's razor.

2. Why would he/she lie about her/his nature?

As a woman, I can think of a lot of reasons why I would refuse to fill such a space on a form in real life. I do often lie about my "nature" on the internet, and I am sure you can imagine why.

In a supposedly gender-equal society it makes less sense, but then, so does the existence of such a question on a form in the first place.

Vaarsuvius may feel that Roy has no need and therefore no right to know about hir sex, and that it is something that matters only to hirself and hir mate. As seen after Belkar's kiss, V does prefer not to adress intrusions into hir personal space directly.

VanaGalen

2013-04-09, 05:11 PM

As a woman, I can think of a lot of reasons why I would refuse to fill such a space on a form in real life. I do often lie about my "nature" on the internet, and I am sure you can imagine why.

In a supposedly gender-equal society it makes less sense, but then, so does the existence of such a question on a form in the first place.

Vaarsuvius may feel that Roy has no need and therefore no right to know about hir sex, and that it is something that matters only to hirself and hir mate. As seen after Belkar's kiss, V does prefer not to adress intrusions into hir personal space directly.

I don't think V wants to hide anything from Roy or anyone else. The elf can be seen as rather open person - s/he never withheld any information about hirself when asked by somebody. Even though s/he isn't very effusive, s/he often talks about hir family and hir past openly.

As far as I know, V never told any joke, therefore I assume hir ignorance on the small change Roy had undergone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html) was genuine. Judging from that strip I suppose V simply doesn't consider all that gender stuff important at all. I suppose from hir perspective gender is more or less just as interesting as somebody's eye color - sure, you can notice it if you pay attention, but it isn't really that important.

Also, the rest of the Order doesn't seem to be curious about it either - Roy dropped it after that application form, Haley apparently knows the truth but keeps it to herself, Durkon and Elan aren't curious at all. Only Belkar seems to be interested in the topic. Knowing how V likes to piss him off s/he might keep this information from Belkar simply to annoy him.

Pyromancer999

2013-04-09, 07:33 PM

Well, think V's sex has been confirmed. The imp just called V's familiar "his pet bird!"

SaintRidley

2013-04-09, 07:52 PM

Well, think V's sex has been confirmed. The imp just called V's familiar "his pet bird!"

Quaar's opinion of V's sex has been confirmed. V's sex, however, has not been.

Water_Bear

2013-04-09, 07:55 PM

Well, think V's sex has been confirmed. The imp just called V's familiar "his pet bird!"

We've been over this; whenever someone calls V by a gendered pronoun, that reflects their own view of V's gender rather than fact.

The only people who could definitively say would be Inky (V's mate) and possibly the Oracle.

-Edit-

Ninjas!

dps

2013-04-09, 08:34 PM

I think that Rich accidentally outed V as male in the Gender and Sexualtiy Representation thread.

Shadowknight12

2013-04-09, 08:44 PM

I think that Rich accidentally outed V as male in the Gender and Sexualtiy Representation thread.

The Giant said that the adopted children thing was to keep the gender/sexuality issue as broad-ranging as possible. It wasn't a statement of certainty.

The bit about Haley being tokenism is probably more related to "overtly feminine features" rather than actual biological sex. And even if he did, initially, conceive V as a male, he has repeatedly stated over the years that he's doing the gender ambiguity thing on purpose, so that supersedes his original thoughts on the matter.

Procyonpi

2013-04-09, 09:11 PM

I find it interesting that I've never seen anyone suggest that V is intersexed.

JusticeZero

2013-04-10, 11:12 AM

For that matter, what elves have we seen that aren't ambiguous?

Shadowknight12

2013-04-10, 11:15 AM

For that matter, what elves have we seen that aren't ambiguous?

Some of the elven insurgents seem to have more stereotypical gender characteristics.

sam79

2013-04-10, 12:24 PM

For that matter, what elves have we seen that aren't ambiguous?

I'm sure she's been mentioned already on this thread, but Lirian (Order of the Scribble's Elven Druid) is pretty clearly female.

VanaGalen

2013-04-10, 02:43 PM

I'm sure she's been mentioned already on this thread, but Lirian (Order of the Scribble's Elven Druid) is pretty clearly female.

Yes, Lirian is very feminine and in fact every elf in the comic besides V and hir family has well defined gender: Azure City Resistance elves, creator of the Bag of Tricks, Pompey (yeah, half-elf, but looks elvish anyway), Haley's intellect, Plane-shifted Drow Lady... it's just that so far there were hardly any elves in the comic (I think I listed here every single elf that ever appeared).
I'm not sure only about Zz'dtri. I always thought he's "he". Also V's master looks ambiguous to me.

MoonCat

2013-04-10, 02:59 PM

Kyrie is unambiguous as well.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-04-10, 03:05 PM

Kyrie is unambiguous as well.

I disagree.

MoonCat

2013-04-10, 03:17 PM

I disagree.

If it weren't for his association with V, there wouldn't be any debate. He has every single male characteristic the Giant uses to determine gender.

Kish

2013-04-10, 03:30 PM

If it weren't for his association with V, there wouldn't be any debate. He has every single male characteristic the Giant uses to determine gender.
No, rodneyAnonymous is right. Lots of people claim "his" eyes are higher than Vaarsuvius', but no one's ever actually measured them, and "he" certainly doesn't have every (or any) unambiguously male characteristic. Say, rather, "he" has all the same characteristics that people try to use to argue that Vaarsuvius is "obviously" male.

VanaGalen

2013-04-10, 03:38 PM

If it weren't for his association with V, there wouldn't be any debate. He has every single male characteristic the Giant uses to determine gender.

Yes, but so does V when s/he's without hir robe. Picturing Inky in more masculine way actually leaves some room for speculation. While there are tomboyish women, drawing Inky with round hips and breasts would cross out any possibility of hir being male.
Also Inky behaves in rather feminine way, which somehow softens hir appearance.

Shadowknight12

2013-04-10, 04:07 PM

Also Inky behaves in rather feminine way, which somehow softens hir appearance.

That's actually somewhat detrimental, sadly, because it would have been wonderful to see a male character who chooses a non-combat profession (baker), is a stay at home dad and a househusband, and is a romantic and devoted husband whose attempts at intimacy are always too subtle for his overly logical and detached career wife.

If I am ever in the position where I have to write a married couple where one goes adventuring and the other one stays behind to look after the children, that is exactly how I'm going to portray it: all the aforementioned characteristics for the husband, and a determined, fierce woman whose two main emotional states are "impassioned speech of courage" and "sword-wielding anger".

Zmeoaice

2013-04-10, 04:18 PM

Yes, but so does V when s/he's without hir robe. Picturing Inky in more masculine way actually leaves some room for speculation. While there are tomboyish women, drawing Inky with round hips and breasts would cross out any possibility of hir being male.

Kyrie could have been drawn with round hips and no breasts. And have eyes not as high.

One_Wolf

2013-04-10, 04:50 PM

Well, think V's sex has been confirmed. The imp just called V's familiar "his pet bird!"

Ugh. Giant, I love you and I hate you. It was a sadistic move using the masculine pronoun in this comic. Well done.

-One Wolf

MoonCat

2013-04-10, 05:16 PM

V's hips have not been seen, whereas the only confirmed females with square hips were ones wearing armor, which would be unlikely for Kyrie to be wearing, as he's a baker.

Ad I do believe people have done comparisons on where the eyes are placed for genders, and V's are kept in between the two, Kyrie's were found to be the same level on the face as those of males.

Kish

2013-04-10, 08:23 PM

Kyrie's were found to be the same level on the face as those of males.
No. Many people have made the exact same false claim you just did, however.

MoonCat

2013-04-10, 09:34 PM

No. Many people have made the exact same false claim you just did, however.

Could you provide evidence for this? And there's no need to be rude about it just because we disagree.

Kish

2013-04-10, 09:59 PM

Could you provide evidence for this? And there's no need to be rude about it just because we disagree.
...Sorry, what? You're asking me to provide evidence of a negative? No one has ever posted an actual measurement of Inkyrius' eyes, or even said, "I measured Inkyrius' eyes, and...". Lots of people--you most recently--have posted "Someone a while ago measured Inkyrius' eyes and it supports him being male, duh."

We apparently have a very different idea of who's been being rude here. If you want to talk about evidence, how about some for "if it wasn't for his association with V, there wouldn't be any debate"?

Fshy94

2013-04-10, 10:02 PM

VanaGalen

2013-04-11, 05:32 AM

That's actually somewhat detrimental, sadly, because it would have been wonderful to see a male character who chooses a non-combat profession (baker), is a stay at home dad and a househusband, and is a romantic and devoted husband whose attempts at intimacy are always too subtle for his overly logical and detached career wife.

If I am ever in the position where I have to write a married couple where one goes adventuring and the other one stays behind to look after the children, that is exactly how I'm going to portray it: all the aforementioned characteristics for the husband, and a determined, fierce woman whose two main emotional states are "impassioned speech of courage" and "sword-wielding anger".

Actually, I didn't think of hir career choices - after all, baker isn't a profession associated with one gender (our beloved Wizard Guy was great baker and definitely male). I thought rather about hir personality traits: Inky seems to put the wellbeing of their children above anything else, even V. S/he seems to be quite good in multitasking, at least s/he considers multiple issues simultaneously - which is contrasted by V, who forgets everything else when s/he concentrates on something. S/he also has more need for romance in their relationship than V.

As for their kids and why they're adopted I thought that either V or Inky could've adopted them before they actually married or even before they met. After the marriage the other elf simply became the second parent.

sam79

2013-04-11, 06:14 AM

The whole eye thing seems like a dead end, but talking about it avoids what seems to me the more significant clue; Kyrie's body-shape.

As MoonCat said not so long back, Kyrie is drawn with the standard Person In Armour And Male Not In Armour body-shape. Not conclsuive, I know; but as soon as I saw Inkyrius, I thought 'male'.

For what it's worth, I had always assumed that the relationship dynamic between V and Kyrie was pretty much as Shadowknight described; the dedicated and caring house-husband and the work/research-driven somewhat insensitive career-woman (rather career-(female) elf).

AngryHobbit

2013-04-11, 09:46 AM

I tought V is female since the beginning of the Comics, but, if I had to guess, I think (especially after he introdused Lirian) that Giant originally wanted V to be male. Names ending with -us are usually male, and S/he lacks feminine features.
Maybe confusion began because of the long hair and robes, plus that V being male would make Haley only woman in the group.
If that's true, i really hope he changes the original idea if (one big IF) he reveals s/his gender. I like the idea of a male baker househusband and Wizard career-woman.

Sunken Valley

2013-04-11, 10:14 AM

Don't Rich's comments in the gender thread kind of send strong evidence that V is male?

Kish

2013-04-11, 10:23 AM

No, but your jumping on everything he says with, "You just implied that V is male!" there sends strong evidence that you want him/her to be.

Astrella

2013-04-11, 10:38 AM

Don't Rich's comments in the gender thread kind of send strong evidence that V is male?

No, Rich said he made the choice for their kids to be adopted so that both V and Kyrie's gender were left open.

VanaGalen

2013-04-11, 10:43 AM

Don't Rich's comments in the gender thread kind of send strong evidence that V is male?

Not really. Both comic characters and people on forum (sub)consciously consider V's gender to be specified, either male or female. In the comic Potion Sellers, Haley and Belkar treat hir as female, while Quarr and Roy think of hir as male. Also on this forum many people use specified pronouns, usually explaining "I know V is ambiguous, but I always think of him as F/M and it's easier to write this way".

And I think the same goes for the author. I think The Giant might personally imagine V as either male of female, but he's very careful not to let that perception influence the actual balance of yin and yang in the character itself. Therefore I don't think using one "he" or "she" on the forum matters.

I think that actually both "she" and "he" pronouns fit V very well, regardless of his "real" gender. S/he has a lot of both male and female traits, so I think both "she" and "he" (and anything in between) is appropriate in hir case. And the biology isn't that important. After all in real world we have girls with XY chromosomes, men with XXY and even men with XX. So the gender issue by itself is quite ambiguous.

Zmeoaice

2013-04-11, 10:49 AM

I know its not usual that I advocate restraint, but Kish, I believe that Mooncat was seeking evidence of other people stating that before, not evidence of a negative. Though perhaps "evidence" was a poor word.

Now everyone can ratchet down our internet superpowers and we can go about our business.

Kish doesn't know what it means to 'prove a negative'. "Kyrie has 'androgynous' eyes" is not a negative claim. Ze just could have taken measurements zirself.

Kish

2013-04-11, 10:56 AM

It is possible that your implication is correct and what MoonCat meant was, "Can you provide evidence that the exact opposite of my claim is true?" She'll have to speak for herself.

Zmeoaice

2013-04-11, 11:03 AM

And you could simply by doing the measurements yourself.

Kyrie's eyes are positioned similarly to V's

BaronOfHell

2013-04-11, 11:59 AM

This is probably old news for all of you, but I think it's an excellent opportunity to write it.

In math you prove stuff. In the real world, you substantiate your claim.

The reason of this difference is that in math you've absolute true definitions and axioms and whatever it's called from which you can logically build upon. What you can prove however is a statement of the form 'anything, but X', shortened into 'non-X'.

This holds some requirements on X though, but I'm not qualified to write about it.

In the real world, we don't have absolute truths (no offense intended). What we do in stead, as far as I know, is to build a hypothesis X, then make unique predictions based on X. If the predictions do not hold true, we've proved non-X. When we find an X which yields predictions which keeps on holding true, we usually say that we've a supported theory.

In any case, I can't help but wonder, is this really applicable to a work of fiction? Here apples can change into oranges without a moments of notice, and nothing would seem wrong. As far as I know, it was never stated V's gender could be guessed, so for all we know, it may be eternally interchanging. :smalltongue:

blauregen

2013-04-11, 12:32 PM

In any case, I can't help but wonder, is this really applicable to a work of fiction? Here apples can change into oranges without a moments of notice, and nothing would seem wrong. As far as I know, it was never stated V's gender could be guessed, so for all we know, it may be eternally interchanging. :smalltongue:

As soon as someone other than Kyrie figures out Suvies sex, a transmutation spell on self is cast as a contingency to change it.

SaintRidley

2013-04-11, 12:36 PM

I propose we call this the Uncertainty Principle of Elven Sex and Gender.

ghoul-n

2013-04-11, 01:22 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html

For all those who searched, here you have a close-up on that flat-chested-with-curvy-hips elf dude from Resistance. Though ofc this can just represent some tight leather pants (geesh, it's scarier than Durkon's gaze attack somehow).

And yes, V's acting like kinda hysterical lesbian girl. I really doubt that any random male elf would lament Draketeeths so much, he laments not about them imo, but rather about families per se being eradicated. Actually, just maybe even about him/her unlocking an achievement, 'Dedicated family destroyer'.

sam79

2013-04-11, 02:01 PM

Don't Rich's comments in the gender thread kind of send strong evidence that V is male?

Possibly, especially with his Smurfette reference. I think that when Rich first created V, he was creating a male elf wizard, and then converted her to an elven wizard of ambiguous gender later.

So perhaps better to say strong evidence that she was male?!

Rakoa

2013-04-11, 03:06 PM

Could we get Crocodile Dundee in here? Please?

stsasser

2013-04-11, 03:25 PM

I know V's gender but it's pretty obscure...you've probably never heard of it.:smallcool:

Peanut Gallery

2013-04-11, 03:32 PM

And yes, V's acting like kinda hysterical lesbian girl. I really doubt that any random male elf would lament Draketeeths so much, he laments not about them imo, but rather about families per se being eradicated. Actually, just maybe even about him/her unlocking an achievement, 'Dedicated family destroyer'.

Pray tell, could you clarify which personality traits specifically that are attributed to the "acting like a lesbian" during said arc? And the girl part as well, if you don't mind. So far emotional excess is the only one I've been able to observe.

GnomeGninjas

2013-04-11, 03:33 PM

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o705/GnomePics/EyeComparisonOotS_zpsf84f0684.png
I took Vaarsuvius's face, Roy's face(male) and Haley's face(female) from strip #1 and Inkyrius' face from strip #641. I scaled them all to (roughly) the same size and put them next to each other. You can clearly see that Inkyrius shares an eye-level with Vaarsuvius and not with Roy. I believe this refutes the claim that based on eye-level you can tell that V is either a heterosexual female or a homosexual male.

This isn't accounting for changes in art style over the years and things like that so it might not be entirely reliable. Feel free to do it your self if you don't trust my work.

Waspinator

2013-04-11, 03:40 PM

Yes, V is female or male.

Lorsa

2013-04-11, 06:10 PM

I think V is androgynous. Assuming gender has to be either female or male is disregarding reality.

My proof? Vaarsuvius has, on several occassions and by several people, been referred to as androgynous. It's a valid gender assignment and I see no reason why it would need to be anything else.

Tragak

2013-04-11, 06:23 PM

Pray tell, could you clarify which personality traits specifically that are attributed to the "acting like a lesbian" during said arc? And the girl part as well, if you don't mind. So far emotional excess is the only one I've been able to observe. And even that seems like a stretch: as a guy, I resent the implication that if I accidentally killed somebody, I wouldn't be expected to feel any more remorse than just a clinical "oops."

So yeah, could you clarify for Peanut and I what you meant? We're not getting it.

Shadowknight12

2013-04-11, 10:46 PM

And yes, V's acting like kinda hysterical lesbian girl. I really doubt that any random male elf would lament Draketeeths so much,

Because goodness forfend a person of the male persuasion ever express more emotion than a stale biscuit forlornly gazing at the horizon.

Guancyto

2013-04-12, 02:28 AM

Regardless of V's actual physical sex, ze exhibits a variety of masculine traits. It's partly based on stereotype (of course), but from finding ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER in a doily and loving the smell of bat guano in the morning because it smells like victory to going Rambo on the dragon, to being the one going off and searching for ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER while zir mate went off and took care of the kids, it makes a pretty clear thesis.

I kind of like the comment early in this thread by a poster who wanted V to be female because V being male would be 'just too typical,' it's a pretty accurate assessment of zir traits. The manliness is strong with this one.

V is a very masculine individual. And the comic will never, ever, ever reveal more than that, because where would the fun in that be?

Bulldog Psion

2013-04-12, 03:19 AM

Has anyone ever answered the "burning" question of V's sex with a shrug and a "who cares" rather than a theory? :smallbiggrin:

allenw

2013-04-12, 06:57 AM

Possibly, especially with his Smurfette reference. I think that when Rich first created V, he was creating a male elf wizard, and then converted her to an elven wizard of ambiguous gender later.

So perhaps better to say strong evidence that she was male?!

I think this is very plausible. The only reason that I don't think it's definitive is that I seem to recall reading that Rich said that he added V to Strip #1 late in the creation process, so he might not have been counting him/her in his "Smurfette" logic.

In any case, V is certainly ambiguously-gendered now, and I'm positive we will never find out otherwise (and I believe that Rich himself doesn't know V's gender, or rather knows that it's unknowable and irrelevant). So, my answer to the original poster is "No."

sam79

2013-04-12, 07:47 AM

I think this is very plausible. The only reason that I don't think it's definitive is that I seem to recall reading that Rich said that he added V to Strip #1 late in the creation process, so he might not have been counting him/her in his "Smurfette" logic.

IIRR, V was indeed created late in the process, but with a definite gender in mind. It was in conversation with his gaming group that the author realised that some of the audience had thought V was the opposite gender to the one he had had in mind. So he took this ambiguity and ran with it.

Kish

2013-04-12, 08:13 AM

Themrys

2013-04-12, 11:45 AM

I think the "Smurfette" thing is being overread. Four clearly male, one clearly female, one who is ambiguous nine strips in whatever s/he started out as, is more than enough "token woman" to be going on with.

If we must be strictly literal about "Smurfetted," then clearly there is an unrevealed prequel which details how the Order consisted of only the male/ambiguous members until Xykon created Haley as a golem to infiltrate the Order. And I don't know how it's going to be reconciled with On the Origins of PCs, but it must exist, mark my words.

You're right, it's still Smurfette-y if Haley and V were intended to be both female. So we can happily continue our ignorance about V's sex.

Although ... that prequel sounds fun. On the other hand, that's basically what Sabine is, so it would be a bit repetitive.

@Guancyto: In fact, at least the "going Rambo on the dragon" was a very stereotypically female thing to do. Look it's up on TVTropes, it's called "Mama Bear", I think.

Tragak

2013-04-12, 12:10 PM

@Guancyto: In fact, at least the "going Rambo on the dragon" was a very stereotypically female thing to do. Look it's up on TVTropes, it's called "Mama Bear", I think. Or, contrariwise: Papa Wolf

Bryan Mills (Taken)
Rick Grimes (The Walking Dead)
Benjamin Martin (The Patriot)
Bruce Lee (Real Life)

Pesimismrocks

2013-04-12, 01:13 PM

My belief has always been Vaarsuvius is female, with things like the supposed whore attack which would probably consist of 3 females, not 2 females and a male.

However in the last comic it does appear that Xarr (is that his name?) believes vaarsuvius is male as shown by him saying his dim witted bird when referring to Vaarsuvius

Tragak

2013-04-12, 01:36 PM

Yeah, but Xarr previously referred to Vaar as "her"

BirdHarvester

2013-04-12, 01:36 PM

However in the last comic it does appear that Xarr (is that his name?) believes vaarsuvius is male as shown by him saying his dim witted bird when referring to VaarsuviusActually, Qarr's usage of "his" in #883 confirms that he had no idea what gender Vaarsuvius is, since he used "her" in #637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html).

Edit: Ninja'd by Tragak!

AngryHobbit

2013-04-12, 02:34 PM

Actually, Qarr's usage of "his" in #883 confirms that he had no idea what gender Vaarsuvius is, since he used "her" in #637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html).

Edit: Ninja'd by Tragak!

Maybe he didn't even refer to shim as a male this time. In serbian for example we use sometimes male nouns for judges and lawyers, regardless of gender.

Tiktik Ironclaw

2013-04-19, 06:49 PM

Personally, I just see V as female based on the fact that I think there needs to be more than one female in the group. Unless V and Inkyrius are both male, which I doubt because there are no homosexual characters anywhere else in the comic, I observe that Inkyrius is wearing normal clothes, and he has the male bodyshape. V could be wearing loose fitting robes, like the (presumably) female wizard in team Peregrine. And, as mentioned, the RAGE story is very Mama Bear-ish.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-04-19, 10:04 PM

...there are no homosexual characters anywhere else in the comic...

"Sorry. I'm gay." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)

Probably other examples, but I don't remember them offhand. Not to mention all the people who don't say what their sexual preference is, many of whom must be gay. Plus Rich deliberately made that ambiguous, by making their children adopted.

Weak reasoning. "I just see V as female based on the fact that I think there needs to be more than one female in the group" is stronger, should stop there.

davidbofinger

2013-04-20, 08:37 AM

"I just see V as female based on the fact that I think there needs to be more than one female in the group" is stronger, should stop there.

Except the Giant ruled that out. He said he wished he'd thought to have more female characters, but it only occurred to him after the main cast was set. Later he tried to have female minor characters, and thought he was succeeding, but in retrospect felt he hadn't done a good job there, either.

Some people have suggested V gives no thought to issues of gender. That might be true but V certainly gives a lot of thought to not telling people eirs. Other people are interested in V's gender and it passes belief none has ever asked, so V must be refusing to answer as e refused to answer Roy in OtOoPCs. V also goes out of eir way to avoid letting them find out by observation, for instance by turning invisible for urination when camping. V doesn't state eir reasons but I assume it's mostly a matter of principle that it shouldn't matter.

jere7my

2013-04-20, 11:10 AM

Except the Giant ruled that out. He said he wished he'd thought to have more female characters, but it only occurred to him after the main cast was set. Later he tried to have female minor characters, and thought he was succeeding, but in retrospect felt he hadn't done a good job there, either.

No, he said even if you think of Vaarsuvius as female he had a Smurfette problem early on.

Yumori Zatsuken

2013-04-21, 08:24 AM

V is probably Male,due to his name,and his looks,but I dont know,he could be a female,

Cavenskull

2013-04-21, 02:50 PM

I prefer to think of Vaarsuvius as male, because I find certain events in the comic to be funnier if Vaarsuvius is male, such as the "Charlie's Angels" attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0239.html) and Belkar's drunken kiss (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html). Also, I believe that Vaarsuvius being male would subvert more gender-based stereotypes than being female would.

Vinyadan

2013-04-21, 04:31 PM

Because goodness forfend a person of the male persuasion ever express more emotion than a stale biscuit forlornly gazing at the horizon...

...pining for the fjords.

But really, I think the joke about V is that he has a sex, it is just irrelevant to him and not identifiable to others. Honestly, I doubt Inky's sex really had any relevance on V's decision to marry him. I don't believe all elves are physically androgynous, and so for V.

Pandoren

2013-04-21, 06:41 PM

Sorry for long post... I didn't realise it was going to be an essay when I started writing it...

I think when I first saw Vaarsuvius, the haircut and the colour struck me as sort of symbolic of a female character, but the rest of the design and the behaviour perhaps as more male. I didn't pay it much attention and then a few comics in, there came the ambiguity joke.

In some ways I see Vaarsuvius as like an optical illusion... in certain lights, in certain comics, I can see feminine or masculine hints, but nothing that convinces me either way. I do think, as a matter of personal conclusion on balance, that Vaarsuvius does have a binary sex (that is to say, not physically ambiguous) but the gender is ambiguous. I also think that Rich has done an impressive job of keeping the balance between hints.

For some reason I have a tendency, if the sex of a character is unknown, to default to male. I guess I can't really imagine Vaarsuvius as being female, but if (and I know Rich said the sex would remain unrevealed) V became canonically female, I think could well accustom myself to that fairly quickly. I do like the fact that there is a main character that is gender unspecified and I'm quite happy in this case to label V as androgynous.

I get the feeling that by now Vaarsuvius is well aware that sex/gender is a big issue for other people/species and that while there appears to be a lot of indifference for this fact, there might be, to some degree, a bit of (I'm not sure "enjoyment" is the word I'm looking for here, but it's kinda late at night and brain is going to sleep) in deliberately thwarting efforts to discover this piece of information.

A few people have used the night in the hotel room as evidence towards Vaarsuvius being female... Personally I interpretted that as Vaarsuvius labelling Haley as the "safe option"... someone who probably wouldn't actively attempt to interfere, harass, or try to take a peek inside the robes during trance time... (can you imagine sharing a room with Belkar?) As well as that, as an outside reason, it was a set-up for the later joke.

As for Kyrie, it's interesting how the vast majority of people here have said they instantly pegged Kyrie as male... When I first saw the image, I thought "oh, that looks definitely female....... hmm... for all I know, it is just Vaarsuvius recoloured... means nothing" and then kept an open mind. Maybe if I stare at Kyrie enough I might see something masculine, but I can't at the moment for some reason.

LuisDantas

2013-05-01, 08:06 AM

I get the feeling that the Giant wants to show that V's gender is not particularly meaningful. His meaning as a character comes from other attributes, not his gender.

From the coloring book that was sent to basically all Kickstarter reprint drive contributors I gather that at the very least he wants to point out that we don't have clear indications one way or the other and that he feels fine that way.

Which, of course, is a very reasonable stance to take. Maybe the ultimate intent is to give people reason to pause and consider their gender-related biases, including rejection of homosexuality and transexuality.

That said, despite the funny hair and robe, I always picture Vaarsuvius as a male. He just seems to have a male attitude to me.

Likewise, and perhaps just because I knew her as V's mate from the start, I never thought of Kyrie was particularly male, although I will grant that it is not a give that she is a female, either. There are those who say that she looks clearly masculine, but I just don't see it.

Osiris

2013-05-02, 07:26 PM

Chessgeek

2013-05-02, 10:49 PM

I think in one of the comics, a demon roach referred to V as "he"

http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10

"Q: Is Vaarsuvius male or female?
A: I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception, not the actual reality of the situation."

Almonds are a member of the same family as peaches.

Acanous

2013-05-02, 10:55 PM

V is definately male. Fantasy females do not have the INT to be wizards.
That's sarcasm for y'all who can't tell.

Tragak

2013-05-03, 07:30 AM

I think in one of the comics, a demon roach referred to V as "he", but I couldn't track down the comic, can anybody help there?

Yes V is a male wow who knew. In Origin of the PC's Roy asked V's gender, and he was like nevermind, showing not interested :smallwink:

This entire thread makes me laugh as to whether this is relevant, but I don't care, let's just hear peoples' opinions.

883 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html): Qarr refers to V and "his" bird

637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html): Qarr refers to the plan they dangled in front of "her," while the IFCC have no idea what pronoun to use.