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View Full Version : [3.5] Classless system based on feats, critique/suggestions?



RealMarkP
2013-03-21, 02:29 PM
I'm brainstorming about creating a single unified class which only offers feats at every level (in addition to bonus feats every 4th level). Base Attack Bonus and Grappling will be a skill, so a BAB progression isn't tied to a class. At creation time, the player will chose X number of skills as class skills.

Feat System:
The feats will allow a character to pick and choose any feat or ability from any published class. A character, at 4th level, could take Uncanny Dodge from the Rogue class as his feat. Or Animal Companion from the Ranger class. The only caveat is that he would need to meet all prerequisites.

Spells:
I'm thinking of using the system from True Sorcery. A character can build a spell out of components (like lego) as long as he is able to make the spellcraft check. In this feat system, there will be feats called 'Talents', whereby a character can take a talent in Fire spells, charm-like spells, and so on. This character would literally write his own spell book. Caster level is the amount of times this 'Talent' feat is taken. This effectively has a similar progression to a wizard where a character takes the Talent feat each level and uses bonus feats for other things.

The True Sorcery system has been widely critiqued as being low-powered. Therefore, in the system I propose a caster will also be able to put skills in BAB, essentially making him a gish (but without special abilities or fighter feats). So there is nothing stopping a 'sorcerer' from gimping his spell progression in order to get a Barbarian's Rage or Cleric's Turn Undead.

Saves:
If the key ability for saves is less than 10, the save will progress at a slow rate. If less than 15, it's a moderate rate. 15 and above the save progresses at a fast rate. Bonuses or penalties to these ability scores that happen during a level up, can force the progression to be altered for that one level. As an example, if wearing an amulet that gives +5 wisdom, a character can increase his Will Saves as if at a higher rate. If at the next level that character doesn't have the item anymore, they will continue with their original rate.


I'd like to know what you think or if there is a system out there that already accomplishes this.


EDIT: Saves progression

cameronpants
2013-03-21, 03:30 PM
True Sorcery functions fine with True 20... why not just use True 20, and homebrew the other rules you have? I like the idea of BAB and Combat Maneuver (I wouldn't limit it to grappling) as skills, though finding the right balance might be rough. It would be easy to have a high BAB and max spellcasting at every level.. and how would you differentiate Class Features and Feats? Feats are notoriously less powerful than Class Features. Still, look at True 20 as a base is my suggestion.

Grinner
2013-03-21, 03:39 PM
One thing to remember about feats is that they're really easy to unbalance.

Consider the Storyteller system. It has optional features as well in the form of Merits. Merits, however, each have different values, reflecting how one Merit can be more powerful than another.

Feats don't reflect these nuances. It's assumed that each feat is just as valuable as the last, when that's not the case at all.

RealMarkP
2013-03-21, 05:04 PM
It would be easy to have a high BAB and max spellcasting at every level.. and how would you differentiate Class Features and Feats? Feats are notoriously less powerful than Class Features. Still, look at True 20 as a base is my suggestion.
Hmm, maybe Grapple shouldn't be a skill. Having all the Special Attacks as skills won't port cleanly.

I've taken a look at the True20 system and there are things about it that I'm thinking about taking, such as the wound system. But there are aspects of Pathfinder I'm also adapting, such as collapsing some skills into new ones (ie. Perception instead of Listed/Spot). I might take Pathfinder's skills verbatim.

In the case of spellcasting and a full BAB, I'm thinking of having class skills be picked at creation time. You would use your modifiers to pick class skills. So a Strength modifier of 2 will give you the ability to pick two Strength based skills as class skills. Same goes for Dex, Int... etc. BAB will be Strength based for the creation process but won't use the Strength modifier during skill checks. This means that a caster with a focus on using Int or Wis may not invest in Strength to make BAB a class skill; causing a slower progression in this skill (non-class skill limitations). But, if you want to be a gish, why not? You wont do much damage at higher levels without complex attacks (such as Rage, maneuvers, weapon specializations, etc). Does this seem more balanced?


One thing to remember about feats is that they're really easy to unbalance.

Consider the Storyteller system. It has optional features as well in the form of Merits. Merits, however, each have different values, reflecting how one Merit can be more powerful than another.
I know feats are not as powerful as special abilities. Perhaps I should limit the amount of times you can pick Special Abilities to every two levels (Starting at 1st)? You can pick up feats at every level, even in place of Special Abilities.

I don't know anything about the Storyteller system. In the interest of keeping this a smooth transition for my players, I'm reluctant to throw too many new things at them. The True Sorcery system will be a learning experience in it's own right.

Zman
2013-03-22, 08:28 PM
I'm working on something similar.

Everything, abilities, skills, BAB, defense, saves, "feats", special abilities, Hit Points, and Spellcasting are all based upon build points. Everything is also based upon increasing cost, ie the "low level" abilitis are much more affordable and further iterations become progressively more expensive. Levels and classes are gone, only build points and choices remain. Huge WIP right now.