Plane of Shadow

[EmperorSarda]

Question for you all. The Shadow Plane mirrors the real plane, correct? Well, except you can open doors just fine (or maybe pass through doors, I am not sure).

So if you have a group of adventurers who plane shift to the plane of shadow and enter a dungeon they had been planning on entering and go through the dungeon that way, bypassing the traps, and then use Gate to enter the Throne Room, that would work correct? The only thing that blocks access from the material plane are force affects, correct?

[elonin]

I don't know. Are you talking about vanilla 3.5 or a specific setting? The basic search turned up a wiki page. There is a historical reference to 2e that states the plane of shadow being a sub plane of the ethereal, but the reference doesn't state that about 3.5 so I'm inclined to think that objects have physical substance while on the plane of shadow.

[EmperorSarda]

We're going by 3.5 rules.

[Abemad]

They could bypass the dangers present in the material plane, but keep in mind that there may well be worse things in that dungeon in the plane of shadows, and the dungeon may turn into a weird labyrinth reflection of itself... The plane of shadows is not a shortcut :smallwink:

[EmperorSarda]

Would the Ethereal plane be any better?

[Arcanist]

To quote the Manuel of Planes (and mind you, I believe this is just fluff)


The Plane of Shadow is highly morphic, and parts continually flow onto other planes. As a result, precise maps are next to useless, despite the presence of landmarks. If a traveler visits a mountain range during one use of a shadow walk spell, the mountain range may still be there the next time, but the individual mountains may have moved about. Precision is a lost cause in the Plane of Shadow.

So I don't think you can precisely land where you want by traveling to the Plane of Shadows and stepping through with a Shadow Walk, but I believe a Gate Spell SHOULD work, but at that point you'd be better off using Greater Teleport :smalltongue:

[EmperorSarda]

but at that point you'd be better off using Greater Teleport :smalltongue:

But if you don't know the full layout of the dungeon, then I am not sure Greater Teleport helps much to get past traps.

[Arcanist]

Would the Ethereal plane be any better?

I'd imagine it would be a better option for skipping a dungeon crawl.


But if you don't know the full layout of the dungeon, then I am not sure Greater Teleport helps much to get past traps.

Divinations, Knowledge: Dungeoneering, Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering would be able to help you get the knowledge you seek. I'm curious if this is just a thought experiment or if you are planning to try this in a game :smallconfused:

[Callin]

Honestly they might start in the dungeon they wanted but may pass through many different mirror rooms of OTHER dungeons across many realms and fighting different shadow creatures. Could honestly make for a whole new dungeon crawl experience.

[Jack_Simth]

Would the Ethereal plane be any better?For the purposes of skipping a dungeon, yes. You can see the material plane from the Ethereal, but very little on the material plane can affect you (some things can - critters with Gaze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks) attacks are still a problem, and of course the expected Force Effects and Abjurations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#theEtherealPlane), and the occasional item that affects things on the Ethereal regardless. And again, the Ethereal plane has its own denizens.

[EmperorSarda]

I'm curious if this is just a thought experiment or if you are planning to try this in a game :smallconfused:

I'm planning on trying this in a game.

[TuggyNE]

The problem with this idea is that teleport is flat-out more efficient, and there are very few defenses against teleporting that don't also block all other extradimensional travel. So, if you can safely shadow walk in, or whatever, you could also have just teleported with less difficulty. (The exception is anticipate teleport, of course.)

[Matticussama]

I'm planning on trying this in a game.

Any dungeon capable of challenging a party of a high enough level to use Shadow Walk, Ethereal Jaunt, etc probably has defenses that also work against people attempting to bypass their traps on the prime material plane. In some cases the encounters might be even more difficult, due to creatures that inhabit the ethereal and shadow planes roaming about in addition to abjurations or transdimensional spell traps, etc. It is always worth trying, I suppose, but don't expect to bypass everything and go straight to the end. Most DMs of that level will have additional encounters for situations like that prepared.

[EmperorSarda]

The problem with this idea is that teleport is flat-out more efficient, and there are very few defenses against teleporting that don't also block all other extradimensional travel. So, if you can safely shadow walk in, or whatever, you could also have just teleported with less difficulty. (The exception is anticipate teleport, of course.)

The problem with Shadow Walk is that when the spell ends it shunts you 1d10×100 feet from the desired endpoint, and if that is a solid object, it tries to put you 1d10×1,000 feet in the same direction. Which, if you are in an underground dungeon, may not be the best thing. I'm not sure how large any of the rooms are in the dungeon; and so something as precise as Gate from the Ethereal plane or plane of Shadow is best, so the dungeon can be explored some. Well, I could try scrying to see the layout but if the scry attempt is detected and we're discovered, then the BBEG might teleport something to us.

[Ravenica]

wouldn't that be ideal? anything he sends after you outside is something you won't encounter on the inside

[Jack_Simth]

wouldn't that be ideal? anything he sends after you outside is something you won't encounter on the inside

You are aware of the reason why Scry & Die is such an effective and feared tactic (at least up until Anticipate Teleportation and anti-scrying measures become common), correct? When you know exactly when you're facing someone, you can cast all of your hours/level buffs like normal... but also your minutes/level and rounds/level, and then drop in on your target, fully buffed, when your target hasn't had time to do anything in that regard.

[Ravenica]

If he can cast gate then that situation no longer applies as he should always be prepared :smalltongue:

If they are looking at raiding this dungeon and the owner is even relatively competent he already knows they are coming, who they are, and when they are on the can

[EmperorSarda]

If he can cast gate then that situation no longer applies as he should always be prepared :smalltongue:


Still, the surprise of gating in to surprise a more powerful opponent is better than scrying, being detected and losing the element of surprise.

[Ravenica]

assuming he doesn't already see that coming, which you can't be sure of :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

The problem with this idea is that teleport is flat-out more efficient, and there are very few defenses against teleporting that don't also block all other extradimensional travel. So, if you can safely shadow walk in, or whatever, you could also have just teleported with less difficulty. (The exception is anticipate teleport, of course.)

As a point of reference, If anything is SERIOUSLY worth protecting in a Dungeon, it should have a Weirdstone built into the foundation and have it's magical aura removed if only to prevent a Lucky idiot from accidentally teleporting into it. At minimum the important areas should at least have Anticipated Teleport.


I'm planning on trying this in a game.

I'd recommend against this (pending your level of optimization), but to each their own I suppose. At certain levels of optimization (usually High) Walls of Force become commonplace in the construction of Dungeons because of thoughts like these become more and more commonplace. Instead of "How can I make the dungeon crawl easier?" It becomes "How can I skip the dungeon crawl?"

I'm not saying this WILL happened, I'm saying that it is a distinct possibility that a reasonable designer would employ should the item be TRULY worth defending.

Now that we've gotten my little disclaimer out of the way, I recommend using Divination and Knowledges to get a good layout of the Dungeon at the first 5ft and then use Greater Teleport to get into the Throne room after shouting at your DM "WELL THAT WAS A HAPPY ACCIDENT!"

[EmperorSarda]

A
Now that we've gotten my little disclaimer out of the way, I recommend using Divination and Knowledges to get a good layout of the Dungeon at the first 5ft and then use Greater Teleport to get into the Throne room after shouting at your DM "WELL THAT WAS A HAPPY ACCIDENT!"

Which scrying spells would you recommend? Cause Arcane Eye seems like the only one that can really travel/move about, and the spell Scrying seems to only target creatures.

[Arcanist]

Which scrying spells would you recommend? Cause Arcane Eye seems like the only one that can really travel/move about, and the spell Scrying seems to only target creatures.

Discern Location, Legend Lore, Greater Prying eyes, and then that should provide you with enough information to be familiar with it. Greater Teleport in.

[TuggyNE]

The problem with Shadow Walk is that when the spell ends it shunts you 1d10×100 feet from the desired endpoint, and if that is a solid object, it tries to put you 1d10×1,000 feet in the same direction. Which, if you are in an underground dungeon, may not be the best thing. I'm not sure how large any of the rooms are in the dungeon; and so something as precise as Gate from the Ethereal plane or plane of Shadow is best, so the dungeon can be explored some. Well, I could try scrying to see the layout but if the scry attempt is detected and we're discovered, then the BBEG might teleport something to us.

I wasn't recommending shadow walk at all, I was pointing out that you seemed to have completely ignored the possibility of teleporting. However, the comment on scrying detection suggests one possible reason to try this.

Still, the Plane of Shadow/Ethereal Plane aren't exactly obscure enough to just assume the BBEG will ignore them, so you'd best be served by figuring out an even more foolproof method.

How about wish from well outside, once you've gotten your target location?

[Arcanist]

Still, the Plane of Shadow/Ethereal Plane aren't exactly obscure enough to just assume the BBEG will ignore them, so you'd best be served by figuring out an even more foolproof method.

Build a better mouse trap I suppose :smalltongue:


How about wish from well outside, once you've gotten your target location?

5,000xp to skip a Dungeon crawl seems pretty fair, but I believe that no DM in their right mind would still give XP for that (but this coming from the guy offering the use of Greater Teleport, so eh...) :smalltongue:

[Arbane]

My first thought on this: "Taking a short-cut through Silent Hill? That sounds like a GREAT plan!"