How Do You Like To Determine Stats? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-21, 07:41 PM

Either what rules do you like to use as DM, or what are your favourite sets as a player.

Personally, I'm leaning towards something weird, for future games: I give players three choices. (They have to pick one and stick with it, though - can't choose another after looking at the roll.)

First, 32 Point buy; this gives them enough flexibility to build to the concept they want, but not so much they can get everything. Good for players who want to be certain of getting a specific character build.

Second, 4d6b3, with two rerolls - so, for each stat they roll four d6s and take the best three (reroll 1s), then assign them to stats as they like; they can do this a total of three times (no mixing and matching between sets, though) and take whatever they like most. Introduces a bit more randomness, which I think is good, and would (I think, on average), give them a stronger array than they'd get by point-buy - but one they'd have less control over.

Third, 5d6b4, in order, no rerolls. This one offers the best results, but leaves those results entirely outside of their control - so, they might have to be creative, or play something they don't usually play.

Anyway. Scale of one to ten, how crazy am I? Oh, and given those options, what would you pick?

EDIT: Based on comments/other ideas, changing a couple of things.

First, the third option is now 3d12b2, cause 5d6b4 isn't even risky.

Also: New idea. 30 point buy, with a bonus point for every page of character backstory.

Aegis013

2013-03-21, 07:45 PM

You're not crazy if you're giving them the options. That's fine, players like and enjoy options.

I'd pick 32 pt buy every time.

Ravenica

2013-03-21, 07:45 PM

Quiddle

2013-03-21, 07:46 PM

Personly I like the second option; I enjoy rolling for stats but with rolling in order you are forced to make your character based on what you roll.

Miriad

2013-03-21, 07:53 PM

We use 32 point buy in or 4d6 drop lowest with no rerolls.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-21, 07:58 PM

Huh... I would pick option three every time, just for the chance to play something rare and awesome.

...actually, just for the heck of it...

STR: 5d6b4
DEX: 5d6b4
CON: 5d6b4
INT: 5d6b4
WIS: 5d6b4
CHA: 5d6b4

Edit: Does that only work in the PbP forums?

ArcturusV

2013-03-21, 08:00 PM

Out of it, I'd take the 3rd option.

A lack of control is not a bad thing. A lack of control can lead to characters that are really fun that you wouldn't otherwise play because they are "useless". I know, I know, people will say something about Stormwind and how optimized stuff isn't equivalent to a lack of creativity/roleplaying, or that a lack of optimization or effectiveness isn't equivalent to good roleplaying.

But there are rules to creative pursuits, like Roleplaying. And one of those is: You come up with more creative, better ideas when you are imposed a limit by an outside source, than you ever would trying to make up something new whole cloth.

Stats are one of those outside limitations I like to use to help build.

Thus in games I run, if players are okay with it? I go old school, 3d6, in order.

Morphie

2013-03-21, 08:02 PM

We use 4d6 for each stat and discard the dice with the lowest value. The number of sets depends on who's DMing, but it's usually 5 sets. We've never used the point-buy system, I guess we just like the randomness of the dice :smallsmile:

rockdeworld

2013-03-21, 08:07 PM

I like to look at the table of stats by CR (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=mqg1bdtli1fa5772tt1v9v4i62&topic=11336.msg388252#msg388252). I look for the CR equal to the level we're starting at, then I set all the PC's base (before racial modifiers) Str and Dex to the Avg AC, Con to the Avg HP * (level/1.5), and Int/Wis/Cha to the highest Avg save +10. I find it makes the game slightly more balanced across tiers.

Just kidding, I use 25PB :smalltongue:

If I had the choices in the OP, I would probably use 5d6b4, since it has an average of 16.5 and 1/3 of the results are 18 or higher, meaning I'm statistically guaranteed at least 2 of my stats to be >= the normal max.

elonin

2013-03-21, 08:09 PM

Much of the time i'd choose the point buy. I hate apparent randomness.

ArcturusV

2013-03-21, 08:14 PM

rockdeworld

2013-03-21, 08:18 PM

Even if I had 10, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3... I'd still run it.
Run it into the ground :smalltongue:

Edit: Does that only work in the PbP forums?
No, but you can't edit rolls into a post, which is what I assume you did.

ArcturusV

2013-03-21, 08:23 PM

Metamagiced Cantrip Master, it's a lot of fun. And would work with those stats.

cosmicAstrogazr

2013-03-21, 08:30 PM

I usually do a point buy. Yeah, yeah, boring, but it does prevent parties where you have one character with a high stat of 13, and another character with a low stat of 15.*

*This actually happened in a game I played in, and it's what 'converted' me to point buy.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-21, 08:32 PM

I do admit though that some of the methods I've seen have made me question why they don't just Point Buy instead.

I mean if I'm doing something like 4d6b3, reroll any 1s or 2s, assign at will, reroll if you wish...

You're not really "Accepting the Random Luck of Fate" or anything anymore. You're basically trying to rig it so you end up with a character who has stats like: 18, 17, 17, 16, 15, 14.

So you might as well just Point Buy it at that point.

So, my sort-of counterargument to that (though I do see your point):

The way things worked in my old group was pretty close to what you describe, minus the re-rolling 1s and 2s - we rolled 4d6b3 as many times as we wished (though, we had to decide to keep each one or continue rolling - also, it was all done on the basis of trust, DM didn't have to oversee each roll).

It meant that you could pretty easily get the stats needed for each character - on the whole, the MAD classes are the less-powerful ones to begin with, so I don't think it impacts the balance too much. However, it also meant that if a particular character really wanted something for role-play purposes, that didn't mechanically benefit his class, it was achievable.

The important thing was, though, that it wasn't a flat "You can have whatever you want" - you actually did have to roll actual dice, write down the results, etc, over and over. Now, if you had a character concept you were absolutely in love with, you'd put up with that; but, after rolling over and over enough times, most of us got it out of our system, and decided we were happy with what we had, though it still left the option open for Monks, Paladins, etc, who really needed those awesome arrays to be functional.

rexreg

2013-03-21, 08:36 PM

4d6 re-roll ones...put the #'s in any order...you are allowed one 2-for-1 trade...

this was our modus operandi for lo!, these many moons, until a party member was caught cheating rolling stats :smallfrown:....we now tend towards a 23 point buy, not scaling, w/ all 10's as starting #'s...

we also use Comeliness & that number is chosen after all other stats are generated...

The Trickster

2013-03-21, 08:40 PM

My group uses the 4d6, drop lowest die, roll 7 times method, which usually works pretty well. Sometimes, having weird stats can be kinda fun (like having a fighter with a high INT or whatever).

I personally like the 32 point buy system, but that can have its flaws. Playing some classes, like paladins or monks, can be difficult with a point buy system, due to MAD problems.

Sometimes, we like to have it where one person rolls stats, and we share those rolls between each person, putting them into stats as we see fit. At least doing that will remove the possibility of one person rolling three 18's (like my one friend does...all the time...while we watch her do it...with our own dice...) while another person rolls a bunch of 12's (which is usually me...).

Velaryon

2013-03-21, 08:49 PM

When I run, I let my players agree on a method, with the understanding that I generate NPCs using the same method (so if they get high stats, so do the enemies). Every single one of them hates point buy, so we always end up rolling.

They tend to like high stats, so what we usually end up with is 4d6, keep the best 3 after rerolling 1's (and sometimes 2's), roll 7 stats and keep the best 6. Oh, and we always let you assign freely because we tried rolling stats in order once and we all hated it. With this method, negative modifiers are almost unheard of, and it's not uncommon for everyone to have a 13 or better in every ability score.

As a player, I am not happy if I don't have an 18, and will usually ask for a reroll.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-21, 08:50 PM

...I just had another idea.

Base 30 point buy, maybe a little higher or lower.

For every page of written backstory, add another point.

The Trickster

2013-03-21, 08:52 PM

...I just had another idea.

Base 30 point buy, maybe a little higher or lower.

For every page of written backstory, add another point.

...Everyone I play with basically have novels for each their characters.

OP characters for everyone!

:smallbiggrin:

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-21, 08:58 PM

...Everyone I play with basically have novels for each their characters.

OP characters for everyone!

:smallbiggrin:

*shrugs* Adjust the base point buy, and the number of pages needed for a bonus point, to fit your group.

Callin

2013-03-21, 10:29 PM

My group has always used a high heroic Stat allotment. 15 in every Stat + or - up to an 18 or as low as 3. Then add racials.

With yours I would use the 32 pt buy.

Arskanator

2013-03-22, 12:22 AM

In my group we usually use 28 point buy. I recently started DMing for a group of newbies and gave them a choise between that, or rolling 4d6 drop lowest die 6 times, and let them re-roll if they get absolutely abysmal rolls.

I remember when I first started gaming. 3d6, no rerolls. Ooo boy, those were fun times :smallbiggrin: At least the rolls weren't in order.

ddude987

2013-03-22, 12:35 AM

When I DM I like 42pb I know its a lot but its more fun for my players and I. In other campaigns usually we do 4d6 drop the lowest with rerolls... I would go crazy without an 18 in my primary.

AuraTwilight

2013-03-22, 01:38 AM

My group's current favorite method is the Three Dragon Ante method from Dragon magazine 346.

SowZ

2013-03-22, 01:42 AM

My rolls...

STR: 18
DEX: 16
CON: 15
INT: 17
WIS: 15
CHA: 20

I think 5d6b4 is way too strong, IMO. You can easily end up with someone who has just about every stat at 16+ and a stat at 21 or so. 4d6, (no dropping lowest number,) seems more reasonable.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-22, 01:43 AM

STR: 5d6b4
DEX: 5d6b4
CON: 5d6b4
INT: 5d6b4
WIS: 5d6b4
CHA: 5d6b4

Doesn't work in this subforum, but I played with it a few times, and yeah, that was a bad idea. Trading it for either 2d12, or 3d12b2.

Amiria

2013-03-22, 04:34 AM

Ever since 3.0 we have been using a custom 100-points system in our RL group. Iirc, because the guy who GMed an introduction group to 3.0 in on of my FLGSs used that system:

Stats 8-13 cost stat +1 (e.g. a 12 costs 13 points), then it changes to 14 -> 16, 15 -> 18, 16 -> 20, 17 -> 22, 18 -> 24.

In the standard system this would be a ~45 point-buy on avarage. That's quite high-powered but we don't have problems with it. At least it makes MAD classes more viable (my first ever and still played character is a paladin, started in the last millenium in AD&D).

Norin

2013-03-22, 04:52 AM

We use the following options depending on dm:

3d6 x6: arrange as you please, if the stats sucked, roll all 6x3d6 again, still sucky? -reroll again, but this time you have to make a char witht he stats you get, and you roll in order: str - dex - con, and so forth.

This made for some interesting chars at times, if you reroll 3 times. :smallbiggrin:
We even did the forced option on some campaigns. (3d6 in order, no rerolls) Makes char building a challenge. Either fun, or very sad. :smalleek:

Or, if we want better stats we use (in current campaign):

4d6x6, reroll all 1's, drop lowest dice and arrange as you please. You have to keep what you get for your char, no rerolling after you have all your 6 stats rolled.

SowZ

2013-03-22, 06:12 AM

Doesn't work in this subforum, but I played with it a few times, and yeah, that was a bad idea. Trading it for either 2d12, or 3d12b2.

With 2d12 you can get up to 24, though, which messes with a lot of the game balance. Using just two dice will get swingy results, (lots of very high and low results.) 3d12 average 2, (where you keep the two that are closest to the median, dropping the greatest outlier whether that is a high or low roll,) might achieve what you want?

Eldariel

2013-03-22, 06:17 AM

Massive pointbuys. 40+. Allows players to play what they want, pretty much; at least stats are not the reason their Gish or whatever isn't doable, or that they can't have a charismatic Barbarian or a nimble Cleric.

Azif13

2013-03-22, 06:56 AM

I found in the Conan RPG a way I liked a lot and I use every time I GM a game now: 8+1d10. You have still randomness, you can get a negative modifier (but only of -1) and the chances of getting an 18 are 10%, which is high but not that much. You end up with a pretty good build without it being excessive. Sometimes I do 6 rolls and sometimes 7 rolls and drop the lowest, sometimes I ask them to do it in order so they choose the class AFTER the stats and sometimes I let them order them in the way they want.

Equilibria

2013-03-22, 07:20 AM

27 PB.

I know that some of the MAD classes suffer, but its kind of a non issue in my group.

We play the characters we want to play and trust the DM to make encounters that makes everyone useful.

Duskranger

2013-03-22, 07:37 AM

My players roll

2 sets of 4d6b3 x7
One set they pick the other is discarded. It's quite simple, you have two choices, so far it worked.

Yora

2013-03-22, 07:47 AM

Point Buy 25 and nothing else.

Since I generally don't play with people who know a first thing about optimization and those who do are fine with keeping things simple for the benefit of the other players, so far everyone always went along without any objections on the parameters I set for the game. Every time I start a new campaign, I ask everyone what they would like to play, and every time everyone says they don't care and I should decide.
So I always decide PB 25 (and no monks, paladins, and prestige classes).

Vaz

2013-03-22, 08:00 AM

2d6+6 is a way in which we get higher than average results (13's across the board), but still has the Maximum and Minimum's for point buy met and observed. It's usually done altogether, and for a little more fun we declare the rolls after choosing the classes.

Say a Cleric who has rolled has to say "Rolling Wisdom", and whatever they get, they're stuck with (unless it makes him unable to utilise his class features at first level, at which point the points are traded off a random determined stat; say he got Wisdom 8, and he needs 11 to cast his spells. Roll a dice, or pick out of a hat, or whatever. This might be another commonly "needed" stat, like Con, or Charisma, but so's your breaks. These then get reduce by 3 (to a minimum of 8, any left over is then determined once more) gaining you the required 11 Wisdom.

It's about making things work; he might be a highly mobile and Intelligent Cleric, but also inherently fragile, naive and meek, so see what you can come up with in that time.

Zero grim

2013-03-22, 08:12 AM

I go for the simple 4d6 drop lowest or a 25 point buy if your not building your charter at the session.

sure your almost never going to have a super strong character but I find role-play games get a lot more enjoyable if characters have a weakness, it inspires teamwork that way.

I had a ninja at one point who had amazingly high stat's but had a mighty 2 str and 1 con, was probably my most favourite character as I had everything to fear if anyone actually beat AC.

though as a DM I always just grab the elite ability score array, every villain I've ever made has had it, its simple and effective.

Piggy Knowles

2013-03-22, 08:32 AM

I happen to like 28 PB.

Karnith

2013-03-22, 09:07 AM

When I DM I usually have my players use 32 point buy, though they are free to roll (4d6 drop lowest) if they want to.

rockdeworld

2013-03-22, 09:43 AM

Trading it for either 2d12, or 3d12b2.
I've used 2d6+6 in a game to good effect. Average score of 13, somewhat higher than 4d6b3, but not game-breakingly so, and produced good, playable stats.

Massive pointbuys. 40+. Allows players to play what they want, pretty much; at least stats are not the reason their Gish or whatever isn't doable, or that they can't have a charismatic Barbarian or a nimble Cleric.
I also like the sound of that. Having high stats is fun, not having all 18s makes it somewhat more interesting. My friends and I messed with point buys a lot in numerous character creations, with essentially the goal of getting high-powered characters with all 18s. When I eventually saw a character with such stats, I was depressed (in part because I didn't like the player), and when the GM explained the rolling scheme he used to come up with it, I realized that was just the outcome of all our messing with the probabilities. As a poster put it earlier, it was heading away from random results toward getting all 18s on our characters.

Amnestic

2013-03-22, 10:23 AM

4d6b3, allow one reroll, otherwise they can default to 32 point buy.

A lot of players like to roll out stats. Some will even take poor rolls over point buy, but PB is there as a fallback "minimum" level, so I don't have to worry about Johnny Rogue over there with a dex of 11, an Int of 9 and stats which only get worse from there.

qwertyu63

2013-03-22, 10:48 AM

I have two different rules I use.

1: 4d6, drop lowest. Do that 4 times. Add in a 16 and an 8. Assign to taste.

2: 4d6, drop lowest. Do that 6 times. Reject if there is no penalty. Assign to taste.

As you can guess, these are designed to force them to have an ability score penalty somewhere.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-03-22, 10:56 AM

I have a couple of ways I prefer, and would implement them based on how experienced the group is, or how up the group is for more of a challenge.

Most Experienced Players to Least Experienced Players;
- 4d6b3, 6 rolls, place in the order you roll them in the order that you roll them (first roll is strength, 4th is intelligence, etc.). 1 or 2 rerolls.
- 20 point buy
- 24d6b18, 3d6 per ability score. Reroll if you don't get any 6s.
- 25 point buy
-4d6b3, 8 rolls, pick the best 6 for your ability scores. 1 or 2 rerolls

I also encourage random heights/weights and starting ages.

OverdrivePrime

2013-03-22, 11:02 AM

I'd love the 5d6, best 3 option (or wait, was it best four?? then heck yes!). Point buy makes me sad. Games should have randomness, but we keep trying to force everyone to be 'even', when the class options are anything butt. A caster benefits from point buy far more than a warrior does.

Let's see what I get:
Strength: 19 [3, 6, 5, 3, 5]
Dexterxity: 16 [5, 3, 3, 4, 4]
Constitution: 21 [6, 6, 3, 3, 6] o__O
Wisdom: 12 [3, 2, 2, 4, 3]
Intelligence: 17 [3, 5, 4, 2, 5]
Charisma: 15 [4, 2, 6, 3, 2]

So... Warblade. :smallcool:

Amnestic

2013-03-22, 11:07 AM

Calimehter

2013-03-22, 11:14 AM

I'm a fan of fixed arrays that the players can assign in whatever order they like.

YMMV but it eliminates some of the "idiot savant" characters from min-maxed point buy, especially for the SAD classes, and it eliminates the disparate power levels that can sometimes result from a (truly) random stat roll. Power level can be adjusted from gritty to epic just by using higher or lower numbers. I've never tried it myself, but you could even randomly assign the order of the stats if you wanted to add an element of randomness to it and force people to expand beyong their "comfort" classes, but still keep everyone's stat levels at the same total.

Hendel

2013-03-22, 11:16 AM

most common for the games I run lately are 25 point buy straight up, max 18 before racial bonus and everything starts at 10...

I adopted this because many of my players are new and I was having a hard time adjusting to playing their skill level. The epic stat spread they got using this method made it easier for me to bridge the gap (most common array I see in these games is 18, 18, 14, 13, 12, 10)

I agree! We started the 25 point buy in Pathfinder and I find that I am not struggling so much to challenge all of the epic stats that I did when we allowed a 32 point buy or once a simple 90 point allocation (that led to severe munchkinism!).

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-22, 12:04 PM

With 2d12 you can get up to 24, though, which messes with a lot of the game balance. Using just two dice will get swingy results, (lots of very high and low results.) 3d12 average 2, (where you keep the two that are closest to the median, dropping the greatest outlier whether that is a high or low roll,) might achieve what you want?

I've never really accepted the premise that high stats break the game balance; compared to the impact of class choices or general build, there's just not that significant. Furthermore, it seems like the classes that get the most from high stats - melee types - are the ones lagging behind the curve anyway, so nothing goes too bad if they get more oomph.

Plus, the entire point of that choice is to give players an incentive to play something truly random, something outside their comfort zone - if it didn't have the promise of getting to play a super-genius, or the World's Strongest Circus Freak, it wouldn't meet that bar in the first place.

Telonius

2013-03-22, 12:22 PM

I've played around with some different systems.

My favorite so far:
1 free 18. For the other 5 stats, 4d6, take the best 3, reroll 1's once. (With the option of an array for cases where the dice really hate a player). Still has a sense of randomness, but the player's completely sure his primary stat is going to be good.

Other options I've tried:
6 x 4d6, best three, reroll 1s once, arrange as desired
d8+10 six times, arrange as desired (high-powered game)
Optional: 3 1's = 18

Hecuba

2013-03-22, 12:29 PM

My personal favorite?
3d6 in order, re-roll lowest, scrap net mod below -1 (at player's discretion)

Friv

2013-03-22, 12:35 PM

32-point buy, assigned randomly. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, I tend to prefer one of two options:

1) 28-point buy for more "standard" games, with 32-point buy for slightly higher-power games.

2) 4d6b3, three times. Place the three arrays on the table, let each player decide which of the three they want to use. Multiple players can use the same array, and each player can arrange as desired.

I've had too many games with wildly divergent results to really like normal random generation.

Curmudgeon

2013-03-22, 12:40 PM

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-22, 12:51 PM

I recommend point buy with a weighting system to take relative class power into account.

There's no rolling for any part of character level gain. (Hit points at later levels are always average + ½.) Adjust the points available for point buy based on the Tier System for Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but really: Just skip characters this weak.

This assumes PCs are going to start in their primary class. If they change the primary class in later levels they'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.

Always hated this method, myself. Most of the Tier 1s can get by just fine with a single stat, or even without one, by higher levels; at lower levels, it ensures they'll just be squishy and -un-fun to play. Besides, it limits the ability for them to have interesting characters from a role-play perspective - maybe I want my sorcerer to be a tactical genius, or my wizard to be a charming devil. Putting that difficult a setup on them just pushes the player further into munchkinery, without actually doing anything to solve the problems.

Now, I could get behind giving the lower tiers more, maybe; that I don't have a problem with.

Drelua

2013-03-22, 12:56 PM

My group just uses 25 point-buy starting from 10s, using the 3.5 method even though we play Pathfinder; it's basically the equivalent of 37 point buy, but without an entire party full of negative Charisma modifiers. :smallannoyed:

gr8artist

2013-03-23, 05:06 AM

[PF] We've had good success with a slight modification to the 2d6+6. We like it because we're playing goofy/unoptimized characters. We wanted a good bit of variance, but nothing too low, with a high level of customization.

We instead use 2d6+5 (avg 12), roll 6 times and assign the results as desired.
Then we get a bonus point at every even level, instead of every 4th. This allows us to customize our characters to a greater extent, and gives us something every level, regardless of class. (Feats at odd, stats at even)
Since we started with highly random rolls from 7-17, we're actually a little behind the curve our entire career, since a normal 2d6+6 would end with 12d6+36+5 (1/4 levels) and we end with 12d6+30+10 (1/2 levels). But we get to really spec a high stat if we need to.

Never tried point buy, so I'd probably opt for that, since I don't care for the dropping of low dice. Although the possible implications of a savant wizard or untouchable monk make the 2d12 option interesting.

molten_dragon

2013-03-23, 05:55 AM

I don't like entirely random rolling. I've been in too many games where you get one player who rolls the equivalent of like 20 point buy, and another who rolls 60.

Generally I'll do 32 point buy for my games, although the game I just started running I rolled up a 6x6 grid of ability scores using 1d12+6, and the players could pick any row, column, or diagonal going either direction as their ability scores in order. It took me a few tries to get a grid that had at least one decent array for pretty much any character, but they seemed to like that method, so I may try it again in the future.

molten_dragon

2013-03-23, 05:59 AM

I recommend point buy with a weighting system to take relative class power into account.

There's no rolling for any part of character level gain. (Hit points at later levels are always average + ½.) Adjust the points available for point buy based on the Tier System for Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but really: Just skip characters this weak.

This assumes PCs are going to start in their primary class. If they change the primary class in later levels they'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.

I never liked this method. It 'balances' things the most at low levels, where the low-powered classes don't need the help nearly as much. By high levels, the Tier 1s and 2s aren't seriously hampered by their low point buy, and are still ruling the universe while the fighter stands around impotently.

molten_dragon

2013-03-23, 06:03 AM

...I just had another idea.

Base 30 point buy, maybe a little higher or lower.

For every page of written backstory, add another point.

I've always found this irritating. I've never needed to write a novel to have an interesting backstory for my character, plus I hate writing, and I'm busy, so why should I not get the same bonuses as the guy with a lot of time on his hands who likes writing and shows up with a 30-page backstory when the impact in-game is pretty much the same?

Curmudgeon

2013-03-23, 10:04 AM

I never liked this method. It 'balances' things the most at low levels, where the low-powered classes don't need the help nearly as much. By high levels, the Tier 1s and 2s aren't seriously hampered by their low point buy, and are still ruling the universe while the fighter stands around impotently.
I haven't seen that happen. A Wizard with 8 CON is still going to spend time buffing themselves to avoid dying, pretty much every battle; trying to rule the universe comes second. Yes, the Fighter still has problems, but is much more likely to have survived until that point, thanks in part to much better Reflex and Will saves from their higher point buy.

It's not a perfect fix, but it does make things better.

thompur

2013-03-23, 11:37 AM

In recent groups, we've used:
4d6b3 reroll 1's
25pb(pathfinder method)

and my favorite: 79 point distribution; no stat higher than 18 or lower than 6 before racial mods.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 11:58 AM

I've always found this irritating. I've never needed to write a novel to have an interesting backstory for my character, plus I hate writing, and I'm busy, so why should I not get the same bonuses as the guy with a lot of time on his hands who likes writing and shows up with a 30-page backstory when the impact in-game is pretty much the same?

So, the idea is that you can get by with the basic point buy - I still haven't decided what that would be, might be 32 points, might be 30 with the expectation that everyone comes up with at least a couple pages - and that's more than enough to build a good, working character.

But, if you want something else - if you want your cleric to have been an acrobat in his youth, or your paladin to be a genius tactician, or your fighter to be a charming rogue - you always *can* accomplish such, it just takes more work on your part.

I might change it from a straight "Per page" to something where I provide a set of backstory/fluff questions (almost short essay prompts, about a paragraph each), and the more you respond to, the more points you get.

molten_dragon

2013-03-23, 12:44 PM

So, the idea is that you can get by with the basic point buy - I still haven't decided what that would be, might be 32 points, might be 30 with the expectation that everyone comes up with at least a couple pages - and that's more than enough to build a good, working character.

But, if you want something else - if you want your cleric to have been an acrobat in his youth, or your paladin to be a genius tactician, or your fighter to be a charming rogue - you always *can* accomplish such, it just takes more work on your part.

What's to stop someone from plagiarizing a 66-page backstory they like from somewhere, changing the name to their character's, and handing it in to get 18s in every stat? Because I would totally do that with every single character.

Also, what point font and spacing criteria will be used to determine a 'page'. cause I could write a paragraph double spaced in 72-point font and have like 60 or 70 pages probably.

It just seems like kind of a silly idea to me. I'm all for having an interesting backstory, but I don't necessarily think longer = better.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 12:55 PM

What's to stop someone from plagiarizing a 66-page backstory they like from somewhere, changing the name to their character's, and handing it in to get 18s in every stat? Because I would totally do that with every single character.

Also, what point font and spacing criteria will be used to determine a 'page'. cause I could write a paragraph double spaced in 72-point font and have like 60 or 70 pages probably.

It just seems like kind of a silly idea to me. I'm all for having an interesting backstory, but I don't necessarily think longer = better.

*Shrugs* I'm still the DM - if you try hijinks like that, your character will get eaten by rats. It's not exactly tough to enforce a "No Bull****" rule.

Norin

2013-03-23, 01:55 PM

I'd also consider Factotum with that array. Yum!

Duskblade too! :smallsmile:

Nice stats!

molten_dragon

2013-03-23, 03:20 PM

*Shrugs* I'm still the DM - if you try hijinks like that, your character will get eaten by rats. It's not exactly tough to enforce a "No Bull****" rule.

My point though is, how would you know they didn't write it themselves?

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 03:34 PM

My point though is, how would you know they didn't write it themselves?

I was mostly referring to the font-size shenanigans, but as for the plagiarism, any number of ways.

First, a person actually writing that many pages of backstory is going to have questions for me as they go - "Can I have done this?", "Is there a God that works like this?," "Work out the details of this flaw/trait with me."

Secondly, I almost always run in custom worlds, so a plagiarized back story just wouldn't fit to begin with.

Third, if someone actually is coming to the table with that attitude - "All I care about is mechanics, and I'm willing to cheat to get them," it'll be pretty obvious, especially as I run role-play heavy games. If the guy who supposedly wrote a novel of back story proceeds to have nothing to say during NPC encounters... yeah, he might not get eaten by rats, but there are subtler ways to indicate my displeasure. (Eaten by spiders.)

Fourth... who cares? Even "18 in all stats vs. 0-point-buy" is less of a difference than "Single Optimized Wizard vs. Fighter" in terms of capacity to ruin a game, if played to that effect. If the guy isn't a hugely disruptive player, I don't really care if he gets a better point buy than he deserves, I've got better things to worry about. If he *is* a hugely disruptive player, restricting him to a reasonable point buy isn't going to do much to limit his disruption.

Curmudgeon

2013-03-23, 04:34 PM

Even "18 in all stats vs. 0-point-buy" is less of a difference than "Single Optimized Wizard vs. Fighter" in terms of capacity to ruin a game, if played to that effect.
Your "0-point-buy" "Single Optimized Wizard" has 8 INT before racial adjustments. How much optimization are you going to do to make that Wizard stand up to an "18 in all stats" Fighter? Please explain. :smallconfused:

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 05:39 PM

Your "0-point-buy" "Single Optimized Wizard" has 8 INT before racial adjustments. How much optimization are you going to do to make that Wizard stand up to an "18 in all stats" Fighter? Please explain. :smallconfused:

That's not exactly the same as what I said - I said the capacity to ruin a game is lesser. But, to indulge you... even with a starting INT of 8, he can still cast spells (Racial Modifier + Aging Modifier), and from there items + progression bonuses will keep him casting; depending on WBL, he might be behind once in a while, but not by much - so long as he can cast, he can mess with the plotline, the world, you name it, even if his save DCs suck. So, a wizard can still get full spellcasting with a crappy point buy.

Meanwhile, a fighter with 18 in every stat can... yeah, he can still hit things.

The point is, a Problem Player with an incredible stat array is less trouble than a Problem Player with a powerful class.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-03-23, 11:32 PM

I usually use Pathfnder's 25 point buy, which is roughly equivalent in power to a mid-30s point buy in D&D. Possible arrays incluce {18 18 10 10 9 7}, {18 12 12 12 12 10}, {16 16 14 10 10 10} or {14 14 14 14 14 10}. Not that I'd play characters with such uninteresting point buys, but those were to show the power of the 25pb.

However, I really like the "three options" presented in the OP. I'll definitely offer those choices for any future games I run.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-25, 05:38 PM

Hmm... new idea.

Some sort of rolling, but with a caveat - if you roll especially poorly, you get a bonus feat or two, as if you'd taken a flaw. If you roll exceptionally well, you're required to take a flaw, without getting a feat to compensate.

So, when you roll for crap, you get something to make up for it.

OverdrivePrime

2013-03-25, 08:31 PM

What's to stop someone from plagiarizing a 66-page backstory they like from somewhere, changing the name to their character's, and handing it in to get 18s in every stat? Because I would totally do that with every single character.

I think the key here is to make sure you're not gaming with jackasses.

I think most of us know if we're playing with people mature enough to handle this. For my games, I make a point to reward the people who help me tell the story, and that often means giving me more to work with, or enhancing the overall experience of the whole group.

I have some very good writers in my group. They've written some amazingly detailed backstories that have helped me flesh out entire kingdoms in my games. I reward that.

One of the guys I game with is a talented artist. He sometimes does character portraits when he has time, and when inspiration strikes him, will draw particularly memorable moments that the group experienced together. You'd better believe I reward that.

Two of the women in my group are musicians (of very different varieties) and help suggest background music, or theme music for different NPCs and places they've been. That helps everyone immerse into the game a little more fully, and I reward that.

Finally, one of the guys is a programmer way above my ability. When he has some time, he makes widgets, webapps and useful tools for our group. That sort of thing is almost priceless, and I reward the bejeezes out of that.

The kind of reward tends to vary - sometimes, it's a neat item or a character trait appropriate to what they've done. Sometimes it's a stat boost, an EXP boost or a special skill. Nothing overpowering, but absolutely the players who put more effort into my game get a greater in-game reward.

I understand that not everyone has the same amount of free time. Half of us have small children, and we all have pretty demanding jobs, or are writing a book and holding down another job. That's life. I don't require anyone to contribute extra effort to my games, but I make absolutely clear that if they have the time, their effort will not go unnoticed.

Yogibear41

2013-03-25, 09:04 PM

My group rolls 5d6 best 3 8 times then drops the lowest (we play with a comeliness score) after having these base scores we can subtract 1 to add 1 to any score as many times as we want. For example if you had a 12 and a 16 you could change it to a 10 and an 18.

killem2

2013-03-25, 09:07 PM

5d6 keep top three, roll 5 times, take auto 18 on classes core stat for the 6th.

Averis Vol

2013-03-25, 09:11 PM

I've always preferred 5d6rr1 to point buy, if only for the fact that point buy panders to SAD casters and generally leaves mundane types out to dry. so atleast with rolled they have a chance to actually be able to qualify for the things they want.

As a DM I give a stat array of 18 16 15 14 12 10 because I enjoy lower power classes myself, so I try and make things a little easier on them. Yes this also rounds out a casters stats, but that's only a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things.

Octopusapult

2013-03-25, 09:12 PM

4d6 drop lowest.
Seven times, drop lowest.

Range is 18-8. (If you roll under 8, it doesn't count against your 7 rolls.)

BUT I only use this for Face to Face games in real life. If it's online, it's 20 point buy on a point for point basis with all attributes having started at 8's.

20 point buy doesn't seem like enough? That's because I reward a stat increase at even numbered levels and feats at odd numbered levels for high heroic style games.

JusticeZero

2013-03-25, 11:26 PM

If I have time and we're all around a table making characters for the first time for the whole session, I use bingo-board. That's 4d6 best 3 36 times in order on a 6x6 grid, then take stats IN ORDER in any direction valid for tic tac toe/bingo. People can trade their boards. "I have an 18 in a corner, but nothing good in a second row - and I want to play a cleric!" "I've got a 17 in a spot that you can hit with a wisdom score, and I want to make a Sorcerer, so i'll trade."

Lately i've been considering something pretty basic along the lines of "Pick three numbers. Now subtract them from 25 to get the other three. Put them wherever you like." I just cant be bothered and I don't want to deal with dice arguments anymore.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-25, 11:41 PM

Hmm. Is there any love for me "Bonus Feats if you roll poorly" idea?

Octopusapult

2013-03-25, 11:42 PM

Hmm. Is there any love for me "Bonus Feats if you roll poorly" idea?

Not from me, if only because in my houserules I already end up rewarding a bunch of feats.

But that's the beauty of the thing. You can do whatever works. Or whatever doesn't work if you've got that one annoying player you all secretly want to leave the group.

You know who you are...

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2013-03-25, 11:56 PM

I understand the "balance" component of point buy, but it's always seemed so dull, to me. I find rolling a lot more fun, and dealing with the consequences of fate more enjoyable than getting to pick a certain degree of how things turn out. I guess I'd default to rolling stats and giving the players the option to use point buy if they really don't like the rolls.

TuggyNE

2013-03-26, 12:10 AM

rockdeworld

2013-03-26, 12:36 AM

Possible arrays incluce {18 18 10 10 9 7}
That's 29, not 25. Relative to 3.5, a Pathfinder point buy punishes players for having multiple high stats and rewards having multiple lower stats.

AttilaTheGeek

2013-03-26, 05:32 AM

That's 29, not 25. Relative to 3.5, a Pathfinder point buy punishes players for having multiple high stats and rewards having multiple lower stats.

Whoops, that's right. That should be {18 17 10 10 9 7} or {18 18 10 9 7 7}. But that's a good thing, though, because MAD classes are already the ones who get screwed over by point buy.

Bakkan

2013-03-26, 06:06 AM

Usually the games I run or play in use 32 point buy.

In one game I had them pick their race first, and then roll 4d6b3 in order, and then chooase their class. It was intended to be soemwhat more realistic, in that a character chooses neither his race nor his stats, but he'll choose a career that takes advantage of his strengths and doesn't depend on his weaknesses.

I really like the bingo-board idea though. I think I'm going to try that the next game I run. Not sure whether to have each player make their own (and allow swaps) or make one that everyone shares.

When I'm making enemies that aren't straight out of a manual I use the Elite array.