Goblinoid Campaign - Good or bad?

[gurgleflep]

Greetings, everybody! I've got a question about a campaign idea I've been bouncing around with myself and a couple of the players who will be playing in it.
Is a campaign where everybody plays as some form of goblinoid a good idea?

There's the regular goblin, bhurka, vril, blue, hobgoblin, bugbear, and countless others, so it will allow for some variety among the PCs. No alignment restrictions, all classes (though I expect mostly core to be used), and appropriate templates.

If you've got a suggestion as to how this could work, I'd be more than happy to listen. There's going to be about seven people playing, excluding myself.

[Slipperychicken]

You could check out the Goblins webcomic for inspiration.

[Malak'ai]

I don't really see any problems apart from all the usual things like LA and RHD (for those that have it, though off the top of my head I'm not sure many Goblinoids have a +LA or compulsary RHD).

Only thing you might have to do if re-fluff certain PrC's if the players want to take them.

Apart from those, good luck!

[gurgleflep]

You could check out the Goblins webcomic for inspiration.

I'll check it out now, thank you.


I don't really see any problems apart from all the usual things like LA and RHD (for those that have it, though off the top of my head I'm not sure many Goblinoids have a +LA or compulsary RHD).

Only thing you might have to do if re-fluff certain PrC's if the players want to take them.

Apart from those, good luck!

LA's are no problem, I've - after hours of reading - finally began to understand them. :smallsmile:
Any PrC's in particular? We've got nearly all the books as a group.

[ArcturusV]

Well you might want to rework things like Halfling Outrider to be Goblin friendly, so Goblin Wargrider. As Halflings and standard Gobbos would tend to fill the same sort of PC niche, stuff meant for Halflings only make sense as a Goblin option.

... which makes me wonder what you would do for those Evil Halflings. I mean they do have a subrace of Halflings that are basically all puppy kicking genocidal gypsies in Vile Darkness. Make an equivalent of an Exalted Gobbo race?

[gurgleflep]

Well you might want to rework things like Halfling Outrider to be Goblin friendly, so Goblin Wargrider. As Halflings and standard Gobbos would tend to fill the same sort of PC niche, stuff meant for Halflings only make sense as a Goblin option.

... which makes me wonder what you would do for those Evil Halflings. I mean they do have a subrace of Halflings that are basically all puppy kicking genocidal gypsies in Vile Darkness. Make an equivalent of an Exalted Gobbo race?

The Goblin Wargrider sounds like a good idea, and like it'd be relatively easy. Thank you for that suggestion.
Have you got a page number for that particular halfling?

[ArcturusV]

Starts on page 13, they're called the "Jerren".

[gurgleflep]

Starts on page 13, they're called the "Jerren".

Thank you :smallsmile: I'll look into it now.

[ArcturusV]

Though as I just looked, the Jerren crunch isn't all that satisfying. Least to me. You might want to take inspiration from the Vashar for a race of "Exalted Goblins".

So you'd have things like this -

Copper Goblin:

Size: Small
Movespeed: Base 20' per round
+2 Dex, -2 Str
+1 Saving throw bonus
+2 Saving throws against mind affecting spells.
Copper Goblins gain a bonus feat at first level. This feat must be an Exalted Feat. They lose the benefits of this feat as usual for Exalted Feats if they stray from a Good Alignment.
Automatic Languages: Goblin, Orc
Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon, Celestial, Dwarf
Favored Class: Rogue

Just a thought. Hell, if Humans and Halflings can have an "Always vile evil" subrace, why not give Gobbos an "Always Exalted Good" subrace?

[Coidzor]

Check out the Goblin homebrew thread over here, I'd say, considering I just did.

[LOTRfan]

I'm trying to think of all the goblinoid races there are.

Goblin
Hobgoblin
Bugbear
Vril
Bhuka
Dekanter Goblin (but those are monstrous humanoids)
Bake mono
Forestkith
Varag
Ogrillion (Orc-Goblin hybrid)
Snow Goblin
Air Goblin


I'm probably missing a few. Also, if you allow pathfinder, I would suggest allowing goblin-dogs (which are actually over-sized rodents that goblins in that setting love) as alternate animal companions.

[gurgleflep]

Check out the Goblin homebrew thread over here, I'd say, considering I just did.

Have you got a link to the homebrew?


Though as I just looked, the Jerren crunch isn't all that satisfying. Least to me. You might want to take inspiration from the Vashar for a race of "Exalted Goblins".

So you'd have things like this -

Copper Goblin:

Size: Small
Movespeed: Base 20' per round
+2 Dex, -2 Str
+1 Saving throw bonus
+2 Saving throws against mind affecting spells.
Copper Goblins gain a bonus feat at first level. This feat must be an Exalted Feat. They lose the benefits of this feat as usual for Exalted Feats if they stray from a Good Alignment.
Automatic Languages: Goblin, Orc
Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon, Celestial, Dwarf
Favored Class: Rogue

Just a thought. Hell, if Humans and Halflings can have an "Always vile evil" subrace, why not give Gobbos an "Always Exalted Good" subrace?

An exalted goblin sounds like it's right up the ally of the party Paladin. Thank you for that idea :smallsmile:


I'm trying to think of all the goblinoid races there are.

Goblin
Hobgoblin
Bugbear
Vril
Bhuka
Dekanter Goblin (but those are monstrous humanoids)
Bake mono
Forestkith
Varag
Ogrillion (Orc-Goblin hybrid)
Snow Goblin
Air Goblin


I'm probably missing a few. Also, if you allow pathfinder, I would suggest allowing goblin-dogs (which are actually over-sized rodents that goblins in that setting love) as alternate animal companions.

The ones I've bolded, I have no clue what books they're in. Also, I could've sworn the Ogrillon was an ogre-orc hybrid.

I've not got any pathfinder books. What book are they in though? I can quickly look up the PDF of what book they're located in (if I'm able to find it that is :smalleek:).

[Slipperychicken]

I've not got any pathfinder books. What book are they in though? I can quickly look up the PDF of what book they're located in (if I'm able to find it that is :smalleek:).

Most of the Pathfinder material is on their website (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). Almost everything there is compatible with 3.5 (this is intentional, as Paizo wants to steal 3.5 players by creating compatible material).

Here's the Goblin Dog (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dog/goblin-dog).

[gurgleflep]

Most of the Pathfinder material is on their website (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). Almost everything there is compatible with 3.5 (this is intentional, as Paizo wants to steal 3.5 players by creating compatible material).

Here's the Goblin Dog (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dog/goblin-dog).

Well this is quite new to me, thank you.
How much of the stuff is compatible?
WOOHOO!! DOG!!

[LOTRfan]

Forestkith is a race of goblins who can transform into trees. They are in the... Monster Manual III, I believe? Varags are in the Monster Manual IV or V, Bake mono are in Oriental Adventures.

You're right on the Ogrillion. It seems there are two orc-ogre hybrid races.

[ArcturusV]

Bakemono is from Oriental Adventures, a 3.0 book but still good to use. In case you didn't know 3.0 stuff is still legal unless it's been reprinted in a 3.5 book. In which case use the 3.5 version.

[gurgleflep]

Forestkith is a race of goblins who can transform into trees. They are in the... Monster Manual III, I believe? Varags are in the Monster Manual IV or V, Bake mono are in Oriental Adventures.

You're right on the Ogrillion. It seems there are two orc-ogre hybrid races.


Bakemono is from Oriental Adventures, a 3.0 book but still good to use. In case you didn't know 3.0 stuff is still legal unless it's been reprinted in a 3.5 book. In which case use the 3.5 version.

Thank you both for telling me the location of these goblin(oid)s :smallsmile:

The other orc-ogre is the Orog, isn't it?

[Slipperychicken]

How much of the stuff is compatible?
WOOHOO!! DOG!!

Pretty much all of it, really, including the classes and many feats. They consolidated some skills (Perception is Spot+Listen, stealth is hide+move silently, Diplomacy includes Gather Information, Acrobatics is Tumble+Jump, and so on), changed what some feats do, and slightly altered some spells to be less broken. The new Combat Maneuver system uses essentially the same mechanics, but is represented as two numbers. They fixed the Paladin so it's actually good now, and added optional firearms rules. And browse through the new classes, they're pretty interesting, covering some archetypes which are otherwise hard to support in 3.5.

Overall, for the things which need conversion, it's usually effortless. Just changing names most of the time.

EDIT:
Here are some pictures of Goblin Dogs, since they aren't in the website's entry.
http://imageshack.us/a/img9/706/goblindog.jpg
http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/goblin-dog-rider.jpg

[gurgleflep]

Pretty much all of it, really, including the classes and many feats. They consolidated some skills (Perception is Spot+Listen, stealth is hide+move silently, Diplomacy includes Gather Information, Acrobatics is Tumble+Jump, and so on), changed what some feats do, and slightly altered some spells to be less broken. The new Combat Maneuver system uses essentially the same mechanics, but is represented as two numbers. They fixed the Paladin so it's actually good now, and added optional firearms rules. And browse through the new classes, they're pretty interesting, covering some archetypes which are otherwise hard to support in 3.5.

Overall, for the things which need conversion, it's usually effortless. Just changing names most of the time.

EDIT:
Here are some pictures of Goblin Dogs, since they aren't in the website's entry.
http://imageshack.us/a/img9/706/goblindog.jpg
http://worldofalidor.com/4th-ed/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/goblin-dog-rider.jpg

The goblin-dog isn't as ugly as I had anticipated, I expected it to be WAY worse. Also, thank you for explaining the skills and what-not :smallsmile:

[Slipperychicken]

The goblin-dog isn't as ugly as I had anticipated, I expected it to be WAY worse.

Your game. You could always make them more ugly. I personally envisioned them as sickly green hyena-like beasts before I saw the pictures.

[veven]

If you are in need of plot ideas you could take a page out of Red Cloak's book and have the campaign be based around the idea that the goblinoids are fed up with being shat-upon nomads and decide to carve out a nation for themselves. Where the party fits in is up to you but that sort of setup would give you a lot of options as a DM.

[gurgleflep]

If you are in need of plot ideas you could take a page out of Red Cloak's book and have the campaign be based around the idea that the goblinoids are fed up with being shat-upon nomads and decide to carve out a nation for themselves. Where the party fits in is up to you but that sort of setup would give you a lot of options as a DM.

That actually sounds like a pretty good idea. I hadn't really thought up a major plot-line yet, but that's pretty good. Thank you for suggesting that :smallbiggrin:

[ArcturusV]

Note that it's kinda related to how Goblins, the webcomic starts.

I mean literally the Goblins are sitting in an Warcamp with the "poorly locked chest" filled with "magic items we will never use", waiting for Adventurers to kill them. Because if they weren't in these warcamps the Adventurers would be sacking their HOMES instead, killing their women, etc.

Min-Max the Unstoppable Warrior, a few Drizzle Clones, and a punk Dwarf come in and almost wipe out the camp. The Goblins who survive say "Screw it. We'll become Adventurers, get items and power, then we can stop them from killing us!". Also there is a Goblin "Terror" who is tryign to make a Goblin Empire for similar reasons.

I'd be tempted to go another way. Instead of trying to show Goblins as NOT being what they are typically portrayed as, or being somehow "Enlightened" and misunderstood, just playing up to type.

They are 'Savage' and cruel. Less advanced than other races they normally have regular contact with for some arbitrary reason. Fairly cowardly. They are trying to make their way in a world where they are basically throwbacks who the whole world is out to take down. It's a struggle to "pull one over" on the "Civilized" folks and get moral victories in there.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd be tempted to go another way. Instead of trying to show Goblins as NOT being what they are typically portrayed as, or being somehow "Enlightened" and misunderstood, just playing up to type.


I'd see it best as just having tribal Goblins portrayed as human in nature, in a struggle against some 'civilized' peoples only because they feel peaceful resolution is impossible ("Those city-devils have never kept the peace, and they never will!"). Also, the few city-dwelling Goblins are traditionally persecuted and driven to the fringes of a racist culture, which could be some cool RP.

Also, there could be a diversity in interactions with non-goblins. Some states would be willing to peacefully trade with Goblin tribes and respect their borders, while others will kill on sight and refuse to negotiate. Some Goblin tribes are willing to make peace, some are rightfully angry and ready for war, while one of the major tribes is locked in a hell-bent crusade against the "fair folk" (and has the potential to unite the Goblins in the warpath).

That could be a pretty cool moral choice; help the tribes make peace with civilization, or join the "war-path" faction and plunder the civilized peoples, or betray their people to city-dwellers. Helping to unite the Goblin tribes (and possibly ally with Orcs, Trolls, Drow, and other "evil" races) is another interesting questline.

[BCOVertigo]

The goblin-dog isn't as ugly as I had anticipated, I expected it to be WAY worse.

http://davegrasso.deviantart.com/art/quot-Sucker-Punch-quot-War-Dog-205161147

Better?

[Man on Fire]

I'd be tempted to go another way. Instead of trying to show Goblins as NOT being what they are typically portrayed as, or being somehow "Enlightened" and misunderstood, just playing up to type.

They are 'Savage' and cruel. Less advanced than other races they normally have regular contact with for some arbitrary reason. Fairly cowardly. They are trying to make their way in a world where they are basically throwbacks who the whole world is out to take down. It's a struggle to "pull one over" on the "Civilized" folks and get moral victories in there.

No, stop that, racial stereotypes were, are and will always be bad. Forcing the players to play one type of character, all of them, because some moron at WotC decided to write big red letters "ALWAYS Neutral Evil" on Goblin's sheet is horrible and ruins fun for everybody. The best games of all x-monster race are when you allow your party to ignore this and explore different faces of monsterkind in question (says guy who plays very nostandard Orc Frenzied Berserker and played LG Goblin Crusader in such kinds of games [and one comedic Orc game in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay]). Hell, unless somebody will make a class with alignment specific abilities, I would suggest lifting alignment altogether.

And who said that having some good goblins suddenly means they all need to be good? You could as well have several different goblinoid fractions, maybe even in conflict with each other. At one point you could even drop at them some evil goblinoid npc from one of published modules, say Captain Gnash.

Second, having goblins who decide they are sick of adventurers murderign their villages doesn't mean they cannot be evil, remember that Redcloak is still Evil, only Lawful.

[supermonkeyjoe]

For races there's also the dolgrim (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dolgrim) from the Eberron setting, it's technically an aberration but fluff wise it's made my magically squishing two goblins together.

[gurgleflep]

http://davegrasso.deviantart.com/art/quot-Sucker-Punch-quot-War-Dog-205161147

Better?

DEAR LORD, THAT'S HIDEOUS!! I love it, thank you :smallsmile:


No, stop that, racial stereotypes were, are and will always be bad. Forcing the players to play one type of character, all of them, because some moron at WotC decided to write big red letters "ALWAYS Neutral Evil" on Goblin's sheet is horrible and ruins fun for everybody. The best games of all x-monster race are when you allow your party to ignore this and explore different faces of monsterkind in question (says guy who plays very nostandard Orc Frenzied Berserker and played LG Goblin Crusader in such kinds of games [and one comedic Orc game in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay]). Hell, unless somebody will make a class with alignment specific abilities, I would suggest lifting alignment altogether.

And who said that having some good goblins suddenly means they all need to be good? You could as well have several different goblinoid fractions, maybe even in conflict with each other. At one point you could even drop at them some evil goblinoid npc from one of published modules, say Captain Gnash.

Second, having goblins who decide they are sick of adventurers murderign their villages doesn't mean they cannot be evil, remember that Redcloak is still Evil, only Lawful.

I agree with all of this. Where can I find this Captain Gnash though?


For races there's also the dolgrim (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dolgrim) from the Eberron setting, it's technically an aberration but fluff wise it's made my magically squishing two goblins together.

How would one play as that? Do they automatically get two-weapon fighting or something? Multiple arms (and heads for that matter) has always confused me.

[Greenish]

How would one play as that? Do they automatically get two-weapon fighting or something? Multiple arms (and heads for that matter) has always confused me.It gets to make attacks with one off-hand for no penalty. Which means it wouldn't need Multi-Weapon Fighting unless it was fighting with more than two weapons.

[Man on Fire]

I agree with all of this. Where can I find this Captain Gnash though?


Exemplars of Evil, he is third bad guy described in the book. He is insane bugbear captain of pirate ship "Much Kill", who plans to unleash some horrible monstrority on the world. He and his all-goblinoids crew are perfect to contrast with the party of good goblinoids, I think.

[gurgleflep]

Exemplars of Evil, he is third bad guy described in the book. He is insane bugbear captain of pirate ship "Much Kill", who plans to unleash some horrible monstrority on the world. He and his all-goblinoids crew are perfect to contrast with the party of good goblinoids, I think.

I've just got done reading through his tidbit in the book (and his allies) and all I can say is this: HOT-DIGGITY-DANG!!

I wanted to use ships in the campaign, but hadn't thought up any pirates or anything. This is pretty awesome. Thank you for telling me about this :smallbiggrin:

[SaintRidley]

One thing youmight consider in doing this is taking the Hobgoblin and the Blue Goblin and just saying they don't have any LA. They really don't need it. I'd even consider setting the Bugbear at 2 HD of humanoid without LA, as well, instead of 3 RHD and +1 LA as standard.

[gurgleflep]

One thing youmight consider in doing this is taking the Hobgoblin and the Blue Goblin and just saying they don't have any LA. They really don't need it. I'd even consider setting the Bugbear at 2 HD of humanoid without LA, as well, instead of 3 RHD and +1 LA as standard.

I probably will. The LA's on those two seem rather pointless to me.

[Greenish]

One thing youmight consider in doing this is taking the Hobgoblin and the Blue Goblin and just saying they don't have any LA. They really don't need it. I'd even consider setting the Bugbear at 2 HD of humanoid without LA, as well, instead of 3 RHD and +1 LA as standard.Hobgoblin and Blue have it easy compared to the poor Snow Goblin.

Anyway, bugbear could probably use Monstrous Humanoid RHD on top of the LA cut (there are Monstrous Humanoid (Goblinoid) critters somewhere, I want to say MMV).

[Toy Killer]

I never did understand where Hobgoblins got their LA from, they don't seem to extreme in my eyes.

[ArcturusV]

Probably because early on in third edition the guys at WotC thought abilities like Darkvision were hot stuff and thus anything with good dark vision needed to be LAed. Similarly they overestimated things like 1d4 natural attack or +1 natural armor.

[LOTRfan]

If you were to calculate the Hobgoblin's LA using Savage Species, I believe their LA is .5, which, unfortunately, gets rounded up. I would suggest adding a bonus fighter feat and granting them proficiency with all martial weapons and an exotic weapon proficiency of their choice to further fill out that LA and reinforce the fluff of the race having a proud military tradition.

[gurgleflep]

If you were to calculate the Hobgoblin's LA using Savage Species, I believe their LA is .5, which, unfortunately, gets rounded up. I would suggest adding a bonus fighter feat and granting them proficiency with all martial weapons and an exotic weapon proficiency of their choice to further fill out that LA and reinforce the fluff of the race having a proud military tradition.

I like this idea. I know they lean towards the lawful alignments, so any idea as to which weapons?

[Greenish]

I like this idea. I know they lean towards the lawful alignments, so any idea as to which weapons?Weapon Familiarity with Spiked Chain (à la Eberron) gets my vote.

[ArcturusV]

Weapon choice I don't really see as a "Lawful" or other alignment based concern. It's a cultural concern really.

I'd pick weapons that are useful in group/tactical fighting. You might add something like:

All Hobgoblins are trained in shields (including tower shields) regardless of class.

Or give them a niche exotic weapon which is more useful in the wider fight rather than soloing. So no, not Spiked Chains. But something like Nets or Bolas. Or just have them "count as a martial weapon".

[gurgleflep]

Weapon Familiarity with Spiked Chain (à la Eberron) gets my vote.

That sounds like a rather appropriate weapon. I know there was some mention in one of the books of a hobgoblin samurai using one.

[ArcturusV]

Huh. Really? I mean, I know the Spiked Chain is the OPTIMAL, for a solo fighter, exotic weapon. But I don't know if I'd pick it as THE weapon for Hobgoblins.

The spiked chain is... not really a "group tactic" weapon. It's a one on one brawler weapon. Or maybe two on one if you got the right set up with it.

So it'd fit more of the idea of a savage culture in my mind. Less Hobgoblin and more like an Okk or Orgg sort of creature using it. Big, flashy, great for duels. Lots of visceral detail as you rip people apart with it, etc.

But Hobgoblins are, well, orderly, military, tactical. They don't generally seem to fit the idea of a good solo artist. Because they realized that 5 guys working together as a single unit can hold off forces of "better" enemies through superior tactics and teamwork, and their military culture is based as such.

[Malak'ai]

Weapon choice I don't really see as a "Lawful" or other alignment based concern. It's a cultural concern really.

I'd pick weapons that are useful in group/tactical fighting. You might add something like:

All Hobgoblins are trained in shields (including tower shields) regardless of class.

Or give them a niche exotic weapon which is more useful in the wider fight rather than soloing. So no, not Spiked Chains. But something like Nets or Bolas. Or just have them "count as a martial weapon".

I agree here. If you allowed them free access to a spiked chain, you'd have nothing but a race of trippers (not a bad thing for individuals, but imagine a whole regiment of them :smalleek:).

Personally, I'd go more the Roman or Macedonian route with something like Phallanx Fighting or Short Haft so they can use long spears while in ranks.

[Greenish]

Huh. Really? I mean, I know the Spiked Chain is the OPTIMAL, for a solo fighter, exotic weapon. But I don't know if I'd pick it as THE weapon for Hobgoblins.I'm actually suggesting it because it's one of the weapons hobgoblins have racial affinity for in Eberron, as evidenced by Darguun Mauler feat.


The spiked chain is... not really a "group tactic" weapon.

<snip>

But Hobgoblins are, well, orderly, military, tactical. They don't generally seem to fit the idea of a good solo artist. Because they realized that 5 guys working together as a single unit can hold off forces of "better" enemies through superior tactics and teamwork, and their military culture is based as such.But reach weapons and trip are superior tactics in the game. :smalltongue:


I agree here. If you allowed them free access to a spiked chain, you'd have nothing but a race of trippers (not a bad thing for individuals, but imagine a whole regiment of them :smalleek:).I'm imagining it, and it's awesome. :smallcool:


Anyway, another option would be bastard sword. It's Iron Heart weapon, and hobgoblins invented Iron Heart. It can also be used with a shield, for formations.

Or maybe awlpike, if one is married to hobgoblin phalanxes (despite their impracticality in a setting where damaging AoE exist).

[Kuulvheysoon]

I like this idea. I know they lean towards the lawful alignments, so any idea as to which weapons?

According to Races of Eberron, 'the' hobgoblin weapons are the flail, heavy flail, dire flail (!) and the spiked chain.

[gurgleflep]

Weapon choice I don't really see as a "Lawful" or other alignment based concern. It's a cultural concern really.

I'd pick weapons that are useful in group/tactical fighting. You might add something like:

All Hobgoblins are trained in shields (including tower shields) regardless of class.

Or give them a niche exotic weapon which is more useful in the wider fight rather than soloing. So no, not Spiked Chains. But something like Nets or Bolas. Or just have them "count as a martial weapon".

I didn't mean it as an alignment thing, more of a class thing/specific mention thing. I can't recall which book it was in, but I remember reading something about a hobgoblin samurai using a spiked chain.

[ArcturusV]

Well, the way you get class specific things with Race is by typically taking an exotic weapon and saying "Counts as a martial weapon". Thus martial characters are already proficient with it. If a class gets limited martial weapon choices, like the Human Paragon's "Choose one Martial weapon", etc, they can use it. But classes with fixed lists or only Simple Weapons won't get it.

[Man on Fire]

I've just got done reading through his tidbit in the book (and his allies) and all I can say is this: HOT-DIGGITY-DANG!!

I wanted to use ships in the campaign, but hadn't thought up any pirates or anything. This is pretty awesome. Thank you for telling me about this :smallbiggrin:

You're welcome.
If you're interested in doing pirate campaign, I woudl also recommend Leviathan from Elder Evils - Gnash could be easily refluffed to trying to free him and you always have a way to end the campaign.

[8wGremlin]

I ran a game where the major antagonist was a newly forming goblin nation
The Main Nemisis was "Waaaghner Bonecaster" a Bargest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm).
In his goblin form he rose to power amongst the local tribes, uniting them, and eating anyone who opposed him!

As an outsider he is very talented, and not only can he weield weapons he had a few spell-like abilities
In addition to the spell-like abilities all barghests possess, a greater barghest gains the following abilities. At will—invisibility sphere; 1/day—mass bull’s strength, mass enlarge person. Caster level equals the greater barghest’s HD.

I'll have to dig that campaign up and re run it...

[gurgleflep]

You're welcome.
If you're interested in doing pirate campaign, I woudl also recommend Leviathan from Elder Evils - Gnash could be easily refluffed to trying to free him and you always have a way to end the campaign.

I've never done a pirate campaign before, so this is a pretty great idea. Hopefully somebody will use one of the pirate-themed classes/PrC classes, to make it seem more... natural.

[Man on Fire]

I've never done a pirate campaign before, so this is a pretty great idea. Hopefully somebody will use one of the pirate-themed classes/PrC classes, to make it seem more... natural.

Don't worry about this, you can always refluff the class if you want. And I think there is a book for sea-themed games -Stormwrack - that has a lot of content related to how refluff classes and many tips on other related subjects.

And, if we're aroudn the subject, have some music for inspiration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q49slS1_vFc

[gurgleflep]

Don't worry about this, you can always refluff the class if you want. And I think there is a book for sea-themed games -Stormwrack - that has a lot of content related to how refluff classes and many tips on other related subjects.

And, if we're aroudn the subject, have some music for inspiration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q49slS1_vFc

Aha! As a group, we've got that book. One of the people in the party wants to be an aquatic elf. (Well, really aquatic anything, she's not overly picky)
This music is right up my alley. You've just introduced me to a new band. (And genre for that matter. I've never heard of pirate metal.)

[gurgleflep]

I ran a game where the major antagonist was a newly forming goblin nation
The Main Nemisis was "Waaaghner Bonecaster" a Bargest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm).
In his goblin form he rose to power amongst the local tribes, uniting them, and eating anyone who opposed him!

As an outsider he is very talented, and not only can he weield weapons he had a few spell-like abilities
In addition to the spell-like abilities all barghests possess, a greater barghest gains the following abilities. At will—invisibility sphere; 1/day—mass bull’s strength, mass enlarge person. Caster level equals the greater barghest’s HD.

I'll have to dig that campaign up and re run it...

An outsider that can shapeshift into a goblin? An interesting concept to say the least.
Is it from a book, or self-made?

[8wGremlin]

An outsider that can shapeshift into a goblin? An interesting concept to say the least.
Is it from a book, or self-made?

No it's CORE! MM1

EDIT:
I did have him get pissed off at his goblins being so weak, so got a lot of his minions to make potions so they could take them in combat.

if doing it again, I'd defiantly make the goblin nation get ideas from the commoners handbook! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822)

think I may take a look at making that again...

[gurgleflep]

No it's CORE! MM1

I feel stupid for not knowing this. Thank you for telling me though. :smallsmile:

[8wGremlin]

I feel stupid for not knowing this. Thank you for telling me though. :smallsmile:

Don't be, it's a very overlooked creature.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Having noticed no one else has stated the obvious about fluff...

... I will, if only to make sure Gurgleflep remembers to take this into consideration if s/he is running a standard D&D world.

The humans vs. goblins thing? It is pretty much civilization vs. barbarism in disguise.

Check it- the standard goblin entry depicts our gleeful green gobbos as "neutral evil" and coming in a "gang," "band," "warband," or "tribe." For most D&D standard worlds, this means... few strategic resources, and being decentralized from any sort of trading network.

The benefit of playing a human/elf/dwarf/halfling/etc. in the standard D&D world, is that every village, every city, every tower, is part of something bigger... a fief, a barony, a duchy, a kingdom. There is a trading network made up of merchants protected by a dedicated military of some kind that keeps the peace (mostly by quashing the monsters).

As a Goblin party member (I fully endorse and support your idea as Capital "F" Fun), I would most likely need to figure out a way to acquire my gear. Perhaps this will mean the whole party needs to get ranks in Craft and specialize in armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, jewelrysmithing, etc., and to strategically feat select to make individual magic items. Without a good disguise (I'm totally a halfling, I swear!) the chance of ordering exactly what you want is going to be problematic... and random loot rolls will be the order of the day.

This means that the goblins need a base of operations, or at least, their own trade network, which means obeisance to some evil overlord : / If you wanted Good gobbos, then they're even more out of luck, because racial prejudice will likely keep them out of the local humanoid economy and alignment issues will keep them out of the local monstrous humanoid economy. This can be problematic for resurrection unless the gobbos are part of a temple with a high enough caster (Adept gets Raise Dead at 17th level, so nuts to asking the local Shaman, who is likely to be less than 5 or 10 depending on how you run your experience pyramid model for population demographics).

These are some things to think about anyway. Mechanic wise, I will echo what has already been said; some prestige classes can be rewritten for a goblin's point of view, but I imagine a standard party build can be achieved from the gobbo lineages (Bugbear Barbarian, Hobgoblin Fighter, Goblin Rogue, etc.).

[gurgleflep]

Having noticed no one else has stated the obvious about fluff...

... I will, if only to make sure Gurgleflep remembers to take this into consideration if s/he is running a standard D&D world.

The humans vs. goblins thing? It is pretty much civilization vs. barbarism in disguise.

Check it- the standard goblin entry depicts our gleeful green gobbos as "neutral evil" and coming in a "gang," "band," "warband," or "tribe." For most D&D standard worlds, this means... few strategic resources, and being decentralized from any sort of trading network.

The benefit of playing a human/elf/dwarf/halfling/etc. in the standard D&D world, is that every village, every city, every tower, is part of something bigger... a fief, a barony, a duchy, a kingdom. There is a trading network made up of merchants protected by a dedicated military of some kind that keeps the peace (mostly by quashing the monsters).

As a Goblin party member (I fully endorse and support your idea as Capital "F" Fun), I would most likely need to figure out a way to acquire my gear. Perhaps this will mean the whole party needs to get ranks in Craft and specialize in armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, jewelrysmithing, etc., and to strategically feat select to make individual magic items. Without a good disguise (I'm totally a halfling, I swear!) the chance of ordering exactly what you want is going to be problematic... and random loot rolls will be the order of the day.

This means that the goblins need a base of operations, or at least, their own trade network, which means obeisance to some evil overlord : / If you wanted Good gobbos, then they're even more out of luck, because racial prejudice will likely keep them out of the local humanoid economy and alignment issues will keep them out of the local monstrous humanoid economy. This can be problematic for resurrection unless the gobbos are part of a temple with a high enough caster (Adept gets Raise Dead at 17th level, so nuts to asking the local Shaman, who is likely to be less than 5 or 10 depending on how you run your experience pyramid model for population demographics).

These are some things to think about anyway. Mechanic wise, I will echo what has already been said; some prestige classes can be rewritten for a goblin's point of view, but I imagine a standard party build can be achieved from the gobbo lineages (Bugbear Barbarian, Hobgoblin Fighter, Goblin Rogue, etc.).

This was quite a bit of information to take in. I appreciate this quite a bit though, because this isn't something I'd thought of. Thank you for this.
I'll probably set up some form of trade system with other races that most races would kill on site - orcs, trolls, giants, ogres, etc. - so they've got some way of getting the items they require. Very few of the cities (if any) will allow them in I'd imagine, so I'll have to be sure to get a "master of disguise" somewhere in the party.

Have any other ideas I could use to make this work better?

[Slipperychicken]

As a Goblin party member (I fully endorse and support your idea as Capital "F" Fun), I would most likely need to figure out a way to acquire my gear. Perhaps this will mean the whole party needs to get ranks in Craft and specialize in armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, jewelrysmithing, etc., and to strategically feat select to make individual magic items. Without a good disguise (I'm totally a halfling, I swear!) the chance of ordering exactly what you want is going to be problematic... and random loot rolls will be the order of the day.


Why couldn't Goblins just buy things from "Civilized" merchants? Surely someone would see Goblin demand for weapons and magic items, then take advantage of it. This goes double if there are civilized factions which haven't criminalized trade with Goblins (even primitive economics recognized the value of exports to the domestic economy. And everyone loves cash). At worst, they could still buy smuggled and salvaged goods.

Additionally, there's nothing stopping Goblins from making their own items, magic or otherwise. Magic items don't require special infrastructure or even a dedicated work-space ("Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items"), and Goblins can take crafting feats just like any other race.

[gurgleflep]

Why couldn't Goblins just buy things from "Civilized" merchants? Surely someone would see Goblin demand for weapons and magic items, then take advantage of it. This goes double if there are civilized factions which haven't criminalized trade with Goblins (even primitive economics recognized the value of exports to the domestic economy. And everyone loves cash). At worst, they could still buy smuggled and salvaged goods.

Additionally, there's nothing stopping Goblins from making their own items, magic or otherwise. Magic items don't require special infrastructure or even a dedicated work-space ("Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items"), and Goblins can take crafting feats just like any other race.

Yet another good point. I like hearing - reading in the case of these forums - other peoples views and opinions on these kind of things. Thank you :smallsmile:

Where would I find a table or something saying how long it would take to make certain things, what materials and components they'd use, and what they'd have to roll?

[Slipperychicken]

Yet another good point. I like hearing - reading in the case of these forums - other peoples views and opinions on these kind of things. Thank you :smallsmile:

Where would I find a table or something saying how long it would take to make certain things, what materials and components they'd use, and what they'd have to roll?

Nonmagical items. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) Craft checks are very slow, often taking a week or more to make most items.

Magic Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). You don't need to roll to make them; just have the correct feat and you're golden. And it takes a day per 1000gp -much faster than the Craft rules.

In 3.X, magic item components were streamlined into a gold piece cost to allow PCs to craft them reliably. I think 2e had the exact components spelled out, so that's one place to start. Presumably, nonmagic items are made with ordinary materials like wood, metal, and animal bits.

[ArcturusV]

Well, there is the "Masterwork Item" requirement which I think often gets forgotten. Weapons and Armor, but I've also seen DMs apply it to wondrous items, magic rings, etc, so you effectively needed a Masterwork Ring to enchant a Ring.

Which is fine if you're in a well stocked city and can just tell the DM, "Okay, X of the gold the item costs to make is me going down to the shop to buy a masterwork _____ to enchant."

But can be a pain in the butt if you're running a less cosmopolitan setting.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Why couldn't Goblins just buy things from "Civilized" merchants? Surely someone would see Goblin demand for weapons and magic items, then take advantage of it. This goes double if there are civilized factions which haven't criminalized trade with Goblins (even primitive economics recognized the value of exports to the domestic economy. And everyone loves cash). At worst, they could still buy smuggled and salvaged goods.

Additionally, there's nothing stopping Goblins from making their own items, magic or otherwise. Magic items don't require special infrastructure or even a dedicated work-space ("Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items"), and Goblins can take crafting feats just like any other race.

Slippery- I love you on this forum for your very well reasoned posts, but I think you didn't read everything I originally wrote. I address your second point in the very paragraph you quote.

As to your first point; the types of people who will sell to goblinoids in a standard D&D world system are likely similarly aligned (neutral evil) and there is likely to be a huge markup (like 200% or more) because trading with goblinoids is risky (both for the law, which sees this as trading with the enemy, ie, monstrous humanoids, and simply to keep from getting your throat slit and your goods stolen outright by the goblinoids). Again, this is based on a standard reading of D&D stats and descriptions; some game worlds incorporate goblins into the native populations (like mine, which imagines a Roman Empire using goblinoids as slave labor, and thus goblins and kobolds are sympathetic characters for my players)

So thieves guilds, fences, the black market; these are all avenues for fringe characters to acquire stuff they want... at a huge markup. Buying that ring of feather falling with gold looted from the nearby village? Um... few honest merchants will touch that in my opinion, for fear of the real Baron/Duke/King.

EDIT: Just had a thought on crafting your own magic items; remember that gold does not disappear into your weapon/armor/item, even though mechanically you scratch out numbers here to write down a description there on your sheet. The assumption (dating back to the original D&D, where players had to rely on NPCs for everything and didn't have their own feats to do this) is that rare substances are used for each enchantment on an item; a dragon's tooth, an ogre's claw, ointment of ambrosia, etc. Whole scenarios can be crafted to harvest needed ingredients because the jerk humans won't sell to the goblin heroes.

[sabelo2000]

For a quick jumping-off point, check out the old 2e "Reverse Dungeon" module. It might work for the first couple of low-level sessions while your players get used to their gobbo characters, and you can introduce plot hooks for your meta-campaign there.

As far as trade and economics, I'd argue that trading with "evil" humanoids isn't evil of itself; it's just Neutral. Traders will take their goods anywhere and everywhere that profit exceeds risk; as long as your goblins are reputed to NOT slaughter each trade caravan they find, and as long as they have something of value to trade, acquiring basic goods shouldn't be a problem.

Furthermore, caravans and merchant cartels often operate outside the lawful bounds of cities. A LN caravan group, based out of a city in which trade with Goblinoids is prohibited, might feel themselves justified when they leave that city and trade with goblins in the hills. "Hey, trading to the Gobbos is only illegal inside the city walls."

That said, the important part of all trade is PROFIT. Your goblin group (tribe, nation, clan, etc) needs some sort of actual product to trade in order to become a functioning economy. And going back to the alignment point made earlier, "plunder" is not a trade good accepted by most Good or Neutral merchants.