help a noob make a decent character

[Askeladd]

So im new to dnd kind of(mostly new to these threads), ive been playing with a group for a couple of months, and have gone through a couple of characters within those months that generally didnt turn out so good.
i tried out a rogue but got left fighting constructs and undead the rest of the game till he died,
the second a fighter, that ended up dying the 3rd game he was in, crit to self doesnt help
and lastly a sorcerer that specialized in magic missile cus i was tired of being the lowest lvl(lvl 14 in a party of lvl 17-20s) and missing everything and having my damage be ignored by the circumstancial bs that rogues have to go through.. cool thing was it didnt die but it wasnt anything special i was just there, while my other party members were being awesome

i really just wanted to play the game for fun, not to try to be competitive with the other players, but its rather anoying when every enemy we come across gets blasted in a single round or two, (because of the level differnce i miss one attack and i missed the only opportunity i had to do almost anything that battle) by either the wizard, the druid, the cleric, or the other druid.
yeah sure i was able to do an instant 14 d4s with my magic missile mage, but just to watch the bard/cleric do 10 d12 to the same enemy the next round.. as a free action, and right before their cohort of about 2 lvls higher than me did something insane as well... you get my drift


so that campaign ended and we are gonna start a new one
and i really dont want to set myself up for a similar disappointment so i was wondering of anyone would like to help me with a character build originally i wanted to play a warlock but the dm has a thing against warlocks, and has been pushing me away from it ever since i first joined the group. the game is alignment restricted to having no evil characters and i was told to just use the core book for choosing my class, though i know that the other players are chosing things like shugenja (however its spelled) and artificer, and i think also psion.
as for the character i was going to make for this campaign, i was thinking dwarf barbarian, but im doubting my choice since the other things i chose ended up being a trap. i want to make a melee character that stands out, so i can finally get some of my own spotlight in combat situations, instead of just sitting there thinking about how cool my friends characters are.
also i forgot to mention we are only allowed to multiclass between 2 classes and one prc example: fighter/barbarian/frenzied beserker

[Tvtyrant]

I'm sorry to hear that things haven't gone well for you so far.

Melee in D&D tends to be weaker than casting classes, and the optimized options are fairly narrow. This is especially true in your case, being limited to Core.

My suggestion is to play a small race (Gnome is best) Paladin and get a medium mount (riding dog!) Then stack charge multipliers. A lance does double, the feat spirited charge makes it triple, and you can combine it with ride-by attack to strafe opponents.

Out of core chargers get much nicer things, and there are the Tome of Battle classes to pick from.

If I needed to stay relevant in Core I would play a Cleric or Druid, as they can both fight in melee and cast.

[Askeladd]

the gnome idea sounds cute xD

how would you optimize cleric?
i dont really feel the druid idea, but cleric and gnome paladin seems like something i wouldn't mind doing,

[HunterOfJello]

What level is everyone starting at?
What are you ability scores?

~

Clerics are a great class. Optimizing them is fairly simple, though not as simple as Druids who are pretty much already fully optimized right out of the box.

There are several Cleric Handbooks out there that you can read up on:
The Cleric Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866830/The_Cleric_Handbook)
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) (by AfterCrescent)

and

The Guide to Sovereign Speakers and Other Domain Users (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866706/The_Guide_to_Sovereign_Speakers_and_Other_Domain_U sers) is handy for picking out which domains you want.

~~~

If you're playing a cleric, then you're going to want to pick out which Prestige Class your character is going to enter in to at level 6+. If you want at more melee involved character, I would strongly consider the Bone Knight PrC. It's very flavorful, gets some cool ability and is quite strong.

Bone Knight can be found in the book Five Nations and is focused on melee combat, gaining tons of undead-type immunities while not obtaining any of the weaknesses of actually becoming undead (!!!), controlling undead, and riding around on a skeletal version of the paladin's Special Mount.

~

A lot of cleric optimizing eventually ends up depending on the feat Divine Metamagic. Whether a DM allows this feat or not is usually questionable since most ban the feat for being too powerful. If a DM does not ban it, then players often attempt to obtain Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) so that they can cast a 24 hour buff on themselves at early levels. To be able to get that feat you have to take:
1. Extend Spell [Metamagic]
2. Persistent Spell [Metamagic]
3. Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
and
4. Extra Turning <---- Optional

That's a lot of feats to take only to be able to do that one single extra thing, but many people consider it worth the cost. Whether a person takes the Extra Turning feat or not depends on how many turning attempts they have per day. It requires 1 use of Turn Undead + "an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you’re using", which in this case happens to be 6 for Persistent Spell. That means it takes 7 turn undead attempts to cast a persisted spell without increasing its spell level through Divine Metamagic. A normal cleric has 3 + charisma modifier turn undead attempts per day, so you either need a charisma modifier of +4 or the Extra Turning feat to pull the combo off.

Note 1: People often take the Planning or Undeath domains in order to pull this combo off. The Planning Domain gives the Extend Spell feat as a domain ability and the Undead domain gives the Extra Turning feat. This makes it easier to fill out the combo faster and earlier.

Note 2: It's not necessary to take this feat line and combo in order to play a powerful cleric. It's simply a powerful and popular option. It might, in fact, be a better idea for you to avoid the feat line altogether. The decision is entirely up to you.

[Gwendol]

Important note: Clerics are almost universally powerful, DMM or not.

What you want to look for are combos that give you many domains, because that increases the (already respectable) versatility of the cleric.

Something like Cloistered cleric/cleric/ordained champion for example gives you two extra domains: knowledge and war. Top up with choosing a deity that offers for example luck and travel, and you have a very competent character.

[Socratov]

You could try to use a snowflake wardance bard... Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook) you can find the build. It does fighting and supporting (which is more fun and more glamorous then in most videogames IMO). Beisdes, you will be dashingly handsome and the chicks will swoon :smallwink::smallcool::smallcool:

As far as your GM's restrictions, it's probably for the best since warlocks can seem like a trap.

[Shaynythyryas]

I'd say to try Psionics, if your DM allows it. Technically, it's more or less Core.
They're really easy to manage (as long as you don't try to go cheesy, and you really shouldn't, because that's the reason n°1 DMs tend to throw books at psionics players) and can punch really really hard.
And if you wanna maximize combat efficiency, go for a wilder : you'll be like a very focused high level psion.

[herrhauptmann]

Why were you so much lower level than the rest of the party?

High level D&D is not for newbies. Especially when players start optimizing. You should really be playing in a level 5-10 game, at least until you get the rules down. And get better at optimizing.
Asking the forums for help is a good idea, but sometimes the most optimized character in the world won't help a new player. It's like handing a machinegun to a bunch of neanderthals for a fight against another tribe.

Ask the DM why he's limiting you to a core class, but not the rest of the party.

Crit to self? Fumble chart/deck? Those things suck for a reason. You've just found that reason.

You're stuck with class/secondclass/PrC right? With classes coming from Core, but PrC don't? Ask about taking a PrC that isn't 10 levels long. Heck, there's some that are 3 levels long.
---There's also base-class type things called Racial Paragon (SRD/UA) that are 3 levels long. They're generally very good, and they don't activate multiclassing penalties either.

Your classes are limited to the PHB, but what about your PrC? DMG only? Or can that come from anywhere? (You do mention Frenzied berserker)

A charger type character could be good for your new choice. I recommend taking a tauric type race. Either Tauric template. Or the Bariaur (MotP, Planar, BoED) Low racial hit die and LA are important.


You'll take the same charging feats a regular fighter/barbarian takes. But you can also take mounted combat feats. In a few spots (Races of Faerun, MM) it states that certain creatures can take mounted feats due to their tauric body type, because they are their own mount.
If you are your own mount, you'll also be able to use both your mounted feats, and leap attack/shocktrooper. Without getting into the issue of leaping off your horse midcharge and suddenly not getting to use your mounted feats.


Leadership. Take it.
Take it and get a cohort that does everything you need him to do. If you're squishy, make your cohort a knight with devoted defender to keep you alive. If you're a glass cannon, make your cohort a DMM-Persist RSoP to heal you every round. (And buff you too)
There's a reason that Leadership gets banned so much. It's powerful and easy to abuse.




Bonus:
Here's something to boost your sorcerer if you ever try it again.
Force Missile Mage from Dragon Compendium.
Argent Savant from Complete Arcane.
Or check out the mailman build. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer

[Almagesto]

Can't go wrong with a druid. No, really there's absolutely NO way to screw it up, except failing to take Natural Spell. Go ahead and mix some wild shaped melee with powerful spellcasting!

[NikitaDarkstar]

Can't go wrong with a druid. No, really there's absolutely NO way to screw it up, except failing to take Natural Spell. Go ahead and mix some wild shaped melee with powerful spellcasting!

You forgot Wild Clips (whatever the heck they're called. Lets you get your gear bonuses even when wildshaped. Does the same as a feat later).

And I'd really have to get behind the druid option, it's very hard to go wrong with and absurdly powerful. And if you don't like the naturey "tree hugger" feel the class tends to have there are alternative class features for it. Druidic Avenger http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger comes to mind (yes, it makes the druid more barbarian like), and I'm fairly certain there's others in Cityscape, Frostburn, Sandstorm, and Stromwrack to name a few.

[herrhauptmann]

Wildling clasp I think.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Whatever class or build you're doing, there's probably a handbook or three to help build or play that type of character. There's an index here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=nc54djeou6bkhbdu9e668s9m63&topic=399.0), and unindexed handbooks often show up on a google search for "<whatever> handbook 3.5" -- you can narrow the search to wizards.com, giantitp.com, minmaxboards.com and brilliantgameologists.com without losing much, if you get too much chaff in the search results.

[Shining Wrath]

If you want to play a melee class that does good damage, I can strongly recommend Warblade with the Power Attack feat. By 3rd level you can have Emerald Blade and make your attack against touch AC - which means you can put everything possible into your PA. Full BAB, 12 sided HD, and nice class abilities. As you go up in level more powerful maneuvers present themselves. At level 17 you can pick up Time Stands Still and make two consecutive full attacks. With full BAB that's +17/+12/+7/+2, twice. Given Power Attack if you're unleashing that on something that isn't a dragon or an Iron Golem you can crank out a couple hundred points of damage.

If you want a core class that is not too hard to play but is powerful, I think you should give sorcerer another look. It depends almost entirely on charisma, there are nice handbooks hereabout to help you choose your spells at each level, and you can cast more times per battle than a Wizard or Cleric (setting aside magical devices for a moment).

If you go non-core and still want powerful, but simple, try Beguiler.

[GreenETC]

Not to break the flow here, but I feel you need to discuss with your DM as to what's going on in this game. Fumble tables and Rogue vs Construct issues aside, it seems like there's a definite problem if your DM allowed you to be within a party 3-5 levels higher than you, especially if he was letting them have Cohorts as well. I could understand if you were brought back to life around 5 times, but that sort of level difference is incredibly off for balance purposes and leads to the problems you have been describing.

Other than that, I think it's best for you to discuss with your DM if you can pick something outside of Core, and then take a peek at the Tier chart, since it seems your party has a knack for picking very high tier characters with some good optimization levels, and you should try to look there for decent classes, especially if you're wishing to go melee. The Tome of Battle classes in particular work very well with small multiclass/PrC amounts, but a lot of DMs have a problem with it.

tl;dr: Talk to your DM first and discuss the problems you had last time. See if you can get some help from the people around you so that your optimization level will match theirs, and you can all have some fun.

[Askeladd]

as to specific books im allowed to use this is what my dm sent me
-Player's Handbook
-Monster Manual
-Dungeon Master's Guide
it does seem as though hes willing to work with me if i have something else in mind, within reason of course.

what i was thinking before posting on here was maybe to go barbarian,(although i may just go cleric since it seems the whole party is going dps o.O)
i dont have the stats since we roll at the table, and we havent exactly sat down to make our characters just yet.

i was looking through some of the barbarian handbook chapters, and from what i gather i could make one that focuses on charging and dealing loads of damage by power attacking and taking negatives to my ac instead of attack roll, but then my would be braught down and id be easier to hit. i also read somewhere that theres a feat that allows me to make attacks of oportunity to people who attack me o.O not sure how some of these things would work out in the end other than trial and error.

as for cleric, how well do inflict spells work? and what should i focus on if i want to make a melee/heal cleric, i know i wont be the main damage dealer, but who wants to just sit back and heal all day anyways. but i do like the idea of being able to handle myself, heal my allies and pretty much be awesome.

id pick fighter but id lose myself in all the different feats i can take X.X and my last one critted himself with a icyburst great-spear.. although i think he was the more successful characters i made, the level difference and bad luck just wrecked him though o-o. if i did make a fighter though, id want to tank it out o.O... so much to choose from, so many ways to optimise and i feel as if i may fail at doing so simply cus **** looks good... and it ends up never being used Q_Q

[Norin]

Sorry, a bit OT here but... Askeladd, such a Norwegian name. Are you from up in the cold north by any chance?

[Askeladd]

nope, although the name did come from a norwegian friend of mine. when he told me a story and showed me a manga,(vinland saga). i made it my ign for more than just this thread, i like it quite a bit, and it has given me a bit of good luck.

[Callin]

Want your party members to absolutely LOVE you? Go for the Debuffer/Minor Healer route. I say Debuffer because that way you dont feel totally left out by just buffing then goin in with weapon at the ready. Debuffing has more "feel" to me. Like I am doin more and besides its worth the trouble of getting up there to have your friends look at you dumbfounded as you just gave someone -x to a stat or ac or saves or with the right spell ALL of em at once. Then you go in weapon at the ready and smash their weak faces in.

[Crake]

Play the aloof wizard with as many ranks in knowledge skills as you can get and just RP because combat is below you, let the chumps deal with that. If your campaign consists of just dungeoncrawling for loot to dungeoncrawl better for more loot, you may as well just go play wow instead.

[Pesimismrocks]

Why were you level 14 and what level are you niw. And why us he requiring you to stick to core rule books? With only those available cleric is your best option. Take spells like bull's strength and divine power to try and become decent in combat, perhaps permenant on some buff spells. Take healing and/or buffs and the rest of the party will support you

[thethird]

Being limited to core, why don't you give a spin to the horizon tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) is a fun, dynamic, competitive and easy to use melee build.