OOTS #881 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Thump]

Er... Roy?

Continuing is probably a bad idea... just saying.

[Maquise]

Must have just went up. I honestly can't say whether Belkar's doing harm or good.

[Lochar]

And sometimes you have to hurt to help. Belkar finally wins an argument and comes out morally superior.

[hamishspence]

Belkar of all people being the one to "snap Roy out of it" is interesting.

[Finagle]

Belkar's pep talk and giving Roy the motivation of "keep on or you did this for nothing" is exactly the same as in Start of Darkness when
Redcloak killed Right-Eye and then Xykon lectured him about it.

[Poisson]

That was a Renegade interrupt if I ever saw one.

[Ashtagon]

I see shades of Redcloak in that motivational speech.

[RustyVenture]

That's true character growth, brought to you by Belkar.

[ThisIsNotDan]

Belkar actually sounds like he regrets that the only thing he's good at is hurting people.

[hamishspence]

His assessment of what happened after Roy's death and before his resurrection is also rather perceptive.

[Alexander1996]

Ah Belkar... sometimes the worst motivational speeches are the worst.

[CigarPete]

Belkar actually sounds like he regrets that the only thing he's good at is hurting people.

That was my feeling as well. I was very sad for Belkar then.

[internisus]

Damn. That made me cry. That was really rough. And nuanced because, yeah, the audience knows that Belkar is more than the little prick Roy assumes him to still be at this point. It was hard on multiple levels. It upsets me to see how badly Roy is dealing with this—not just the despair, but the way he's treating everybody else. And I feel really sad for Belkar in particular, for the self-awareness with which he describes his purpose.

[oppyu]

Wow, this may be the first time that Belkar did something awesome that didn't involve stabbing or a cat.

[meto30]

Whether this will end well or badly for the Order, I do not know, but if this isn't Belkar's crowning moment of multidimensional character glory, I don't know what is.

Good job, Belkar. It is too sad that you will not last for long - I pray that your end will at least be epic, as is befitting a Sexy Shoeless God of War.

[HUMVEE Driver]

So sad. Ouch.:smallfrown:

[DoctorWhooves]

God I love Belkar.

[Traab]

I cant tell whether he is proud, depressed, or sad about what he thinks his only purpose is. (Its arguably true, he cant track a giant walking through a pristine snow field, and his spot check couldnt get him to notice the broad side of a barn. All he is good for is stabbing people.)

[John Cribati]

Holy actual balls. Did… was that… ?

??

I really have no words, but just pretend that this post is made entirely up if clapping GIFs because that was amazing.

I'm actually rootin for Belkar here.

[Essence_of_War]

I love Belkar. :smallsmile:

I am, however, very concerned about pressing onward :smalleek:

[ReaderAt2046]

I'm not sure which is more interesting, that Roy almost gives up or that Belkar of all people is the one to snap him out of it. Also, we can continue seeing Roy come apart at the mental seams. You know, this is the first time he's lost a crewmate. Last time this happened, he was the one to be lost. And I do think it's interesing to see Roy's assessment of the situation so matching our own.

[hamishspence]

I cant tell whether he is proud, depressed, or sad about what he thinks his only purpose is. (Its arguably true, he cant track a giant walking through a pristine snow field, and his spot check couldnt get him to notice the broad side of a barn. All he is good for is stabbing people.)

Technically he's good at two things- hurting people and gourmet cooking:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0738.html

maybe since then he's gotten pessimistic about his cooking skills?

[Morph Bark]

Belkar is that one friend. That one friend you know is an ass, but because he's a good ass, you remain friends.

[Kazyan]

I cant tell whether he is proud, depressed, or sad about what he thinks his only purpose is.

He comes across as more of a "disgruntled" to me.

Also, the character dynamics recently have been incredible. Go Giant! This is awesome!

[HUMVEE Driver]

For once I can see Belkar's point. I really feel for him now. Roy should listen to him and take that into account. Show them he can be a good leader. They deserve better.

Perhaps now they will start working as a team, instead of individuals. An event as traumatic as Durkon's turning might solidify them this way. Go back a few strips and see what they could have been like. Everything would be working so much better if they would just use some teamwork.

[Knick]

Utterly necessary. Loss of a friend has consequences and the plot needs to keep going.

[blueblade]

wow... crowning moment of... fleshed out characters on the page??

[bhtooefr]

Probably not the best tactics, but goddamn if that wasn't Belkar's Crowning Moment of Awesome.

And I think he just crossed the Moral Event Horizon... BACKWARDS. :smalleek:

[hamishspence]

Perhaps now they will start working as a team, instead of individuals. An event as traumatic as Durkon's turning might solidify them this way. Go back a few strips and see what they could have been like. Everything would be working so much better if they would just use some teamwork.
I've been speculating that as well-

in response to speculations that this will be like Kraagor's death for the Order of the Scribble- the event that breaks the party up.

[internisus]

Also, we can continue seeing Roy come apart at the mental seams.

You just mean continuing from the last strip, right? Not that it's been happening for awhile?

[Hippie_Viking]

well... wow!

I have always liked Belkar but this just takes him to a new hight, more than just funny!
To bad he is going to die soon:smallfrown:

[Asmodean]

Read the strip with a distinct feeling of "meh". Just a talky-strip to push them along in the story. Belkar is the one to push them. No big deal. Nothing new. Nothing to see here.
Aaaaand then I got to the last panel and got punched in the gut. Not as bad as some parts of Durkon's death but... hoooooly crap, Belkar is going through some character development here. Holy crap, Belkar is going through some character development here.
He's still averaging out somewhere south of Neutral, as of yet. Sure. I buy that. But I can't shake a slight hint of regret to those words. Never thought I'd see it. :smalleek:

[Cuthalion]

That was sad. Belkar is good at reasoning, though.

[ReaderAt2046]

You just mean continuing from the last strip, right? Not that it's been happening for awhile?

Yeah, just the past two strips. It'll probably continue, though.

[R00kie]

1. Denial - Check
2. Anger - Check
3. Bargaining - Check
4. Depression - Check
5. Acceptance - Not yet

Considering most people take years dealing with grief and loss Roy seems to be on some sort of fast track

[Hendel]

"You don't count!"

Priceless!!

[What'sInAName?]

And sometimes you have to hurt to help. Belkar finally wins an argument and comes out morally superior.

Hm. I think it would be more accurate to say:

"Sometimes you have to hurt people to get them to do what they have to."

Belkar knew that the only way to get Roy over his "It's all my fault" kick was to piss him off to the point that he'd continue on just in order to prove Belkar wrong. Righteousness is all well and good, but as a motivator? It doesn't hold a candle to indignation and simple spite.

[Drascin]

While this is all quite cool, I must say I'm kinda curious what happened to Belkar. This is a guy with a wisdom score that lemmings find laugh-worthy, and suddenly he's trotting around extremely well reasoned arguments and skill at reading people like he was Tarquin himself.

If this was an actual campaign we'd be calling the player out for metagaming instead of playing to his stats, most likely.

[NightAngel]

Long long time lurker, read it all dozens of times, own books, helped on Kickstarter (got only the print-only books cause I live far away and shipping was super expensive).

I must say that last panel was a kick in the gut. Very nicely done.

And Giant, if you're reading this, kudos on being an excellent storywriter, and please don't listen to all the criticism and annoying little twits who come here to tell you what to do or not to do. Most ppl think you're awesome and that's what counts. I worry that too much contact with negative thinking could impact your mood and motivation and that'd make me sad.

Ps: yeah, i realize i'm telling what to do, but i figure if it's "be happy and content", then it's ok. :)

[factotum]

Figures that Belkar would finally start getting some self-knowledge shortly before he's due to die. Yes, Belkar, you *are* a heartless little bastard whose only known talent is hurting people (well, cooking, I suppose)--but this is the first time I can genuinely say I'll miss you when you're gone. Who knows where a few more weeks of character development would have got you?

[hamishspence]

While this is all quite cool, I must say I'm kinda curious what happened to Belkar. This is a guy with a wisdom score that lemmings find laugh-worthy, and suddenly he's trotting around extremely well reasoned arguments and skill at reading people like he was Tarquin himself.

His lecture to Hinjo, while a lot shorter, was basically similar:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

[DougTheHead]

1. Denial - Check
2. Anger - Check
3. Bargaining - Check
4. Depression - Check
5. Acceptance - Not yet

Considering most people take years dealing with grief and loss Roy seems to be on some sort of fast track

The current plot-line was supposed to end 119 comics ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html) Roy has to keep things moving.

[Arkwright]

.......damn.

[ReaderAt2046]

Oh, that's one theory Jossed anyway, that isn't the Gate Haley just finished disarming. (If it was, Roy would just have walked into one of the Rifts.)

[FlawedParadigm]

Your Disdain Fills Me With Shame too, apparently.

Also picking the strong "regret" current a few others have mentioned. I keep thinking back to the old "Belkar + 4 Wisdom = healer" joke from way, waaaay back. Oddly, that was also a Linear Guild encounter. I wonder if that was a deliberate parallel there.

Also, Belkar's safe for the rest of this book, I'd say. The commentary in DStP mentioned someone was going to die in the next book, but not sometwo or "a third of the Order." Of course, "the rest of this book" is probably 1-2 days in-comic tops. He may have as long as three weeks left. But it looks like he's going to have genuine character growth in that time.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Oh wow, this was amazing. I never expected Belkar to give that kind of a speech but it feels so right. He really is evolving.

[137beth]

Belkar is awesome. Period.

[DaOldeWolf]

That was truly amazing. Belkar keeps showing how much of a team player he has become.

[GnomeFighter]

Is it me or is Roy turning in to a bad leader... For a, supposedly, trained warrior, he is brakeing very quickly under the stress once he is asked to actualy lead rather than just point the way. Yes his best friend has died, but that is not that much of a problem. He admits himself it is not about the death but the time to rez him not being enough. He seems to be breaking once the going gets hard, and in many ways Belkar is turning out to be the better leader, able to hold the group together when it gets difficult.

[Nenec]

Despite most people disliking Belkar, he's always been one of my favourites...and in here he really showed something. So perceptive...and he gave reason back to Roy in one his blind--depressed-negation moments, maybe the worst one. Telling him soft words and surround him in comfort would have only done worst, but SUCH a blant and sincere approach...oh sweetie.
And, poor Elan...when will Roy stop mistreating him so?


Is it me or is Roy turning in to a bad leader... For a, supposedly, trained warrior, he is brakeing very quickly under the stress once he is asked to actualy lead rather than just point the way. Yes his best friend has died, but that is not that much of a problem. He admits himself it is not about the death but the time to rez him not being enough. He seems to be breaking once the going gets hard, and in many ways Belkar is turning out to be the better leader, able to hold the group together when it gets difficult.
I think despite all difficulties he never contemplated truly losing...and while maybe he could have handled the stress of losing a friend and team mate alone, now he sees the end of everythign he fought for and completely breaks down.
I don't know, I've always seen Roy as not very elastic-minded, so it doesn't surprise me at all he would fall like this.
Belkar on the other side has nothing to lose more or less, and had no vocation of "saving the world" that's being put in discussion so...

[Asis]

Belkar actually sounds like he regrets that the only thing he's good at is hurting people.
I think he is kind of hurt that the good-est person of the guild died and even got cheated out of a blissful afterlife just to save his sorry hide.

Alignment is a guideline, not a rulebook: as we saw with Miko good people can harbor evil feelings and vice versa.

[mawexzon]

Yay! New Comic!

[hamishspence]

He seems to be breaking once the going gets hard, and in many ways Belkar is turning out to be the better leader, able to hold the group together when it gets difficult.

"Holding the group together" isn't always the job of the leader. Sometimes it's that of (apologies in advance for the TV Tropes term) Team Mom (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TeamMom).


Durkon filled that role before to a degree- with him gone- maybe Belkar's stepping in?

[FolcoTook]

:elan: Roy, I'm a spellcaster.

:roy: YOU DON'T COUNT!!

:frown:
Poor Elan.

[Ursus the Grim]

Of all characters, Belkar is the one that makes me go "awww, poor guy"?

[ReaderAt2046]

:elan: Roy, I'm a spellcaster.

:roy: YOU DON'T COUNT!!

:frown:
Poor Elan.

You can see Haley giving him a sympathy hug in the next panel. D'awww!

[Don Ohnic]

Master class in hipshot rhetorics! Thank you, Giant and Belkar.

[Vectner]

Belkar just hates to quit. He's got a score to settle as well, so it really was self serving convincing Roy to keep going.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Damn, Belkar. In a good way.

[Uryuu~Nipaa]

So now one comic has got me feeling bad for Roy, Elan, Durkon and even Belkar. Well played, Rich.

[Drynwyn]

...Huh.
I now genuinely dread Belkar's impending death.

[quasit]

:elan: Roy, I'm a spellcaster.

:roy: YOU DON'T COUNT!!

:frown:
Poor Elan.

Very harsh of his. But I think Roy meant "Spellcasters able to one-shot any menace and fully heal the party" , not "Jack of all trades with limited albeit usefull spellcasting abilities". Elan missed the point, me think.

[juicycaboose]

This was such a good comic! One of my favourite so far, belkar is a gr8 character maybe my favourite.

[hrak]

I dont see what Belkar said that was insulting or upsetting. He basically told Roy how much his party needs him and then told him he cant quit now because his best friend just died for the cause. I mean, he said the perfect thing to get some one to snap out self pity. I dont know how he hurt Roy in that speech at all.

[CoffeeIncluded]

He does what I do: Tell the truth, tell them what they need to hear and not what they want to hear. And that involves smashing them in the face with it, which hurts.

[Apricot]

I wonder if Belkar's improvement in understanding the world and morality is going to end up being reflected in his stats? I mean, there's no set way to do it within the rules (or else everyone would buff their dump stat via "character development"), but on the other hand, you can't get wiser without increasing your Wisdom.

Maybe it could be done by rolling a new character?

[Incom]

Speculation: Belkar will find something else he's good at immediately before dying. (Or at least re-discovers his already known cooking talent.)

[Macros]

Wow, that was tense. And who's that small guy and what has he done to Belkar ? Not that I mind too much, I like the new one better.

anyway, great page. But the future still looks bleak, Roy had every reason to freak out, after all, and Belkar's surprisingly inspirational speech does not change the fact that this adventure is turning into a disaster. I hope for them they'll manage to find V soon, it'll be a start.

[FlawedParadigm]

It's funny seeing how many people are talking about Belkar tugging at their little heartstrings now. I just posted http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14938456&postcount=31 yesterday (the relevant part is in the spoiler, which is spoiled more for Rich's sake than anyone else's.)

Perhaps we just had that moment.

[hamishspence]

I wonder if Belkar's improvement in understanding the world and morality is going to end up being reflected in his stats? I mean, there's no set way to do it within the rules (or else everyone would buff their dump stat via "character development"), but on the other hand, you can't get wiser without increasing your Wisdom.

Maybe it could be done by rolling a new character?
In Exemplars of Evil- a ranger gains the Prodigy of Strength template from years in a giant's fortress- where everything he had to use, was much larger and heavier than normal.

Maybe Belkar could have gained Prodigy of Wisdom that way- from being around wiser people and learning from them?

Though I doubt it.

[Rig]

Excellent character development. I would like to thank the giant for highlighting the failures of the "plot holes" i and perhaps others was espousing. The statement of Roy's idiocy doesn't hurt none either, especially given how he deals with loss.

What I'm interested in now is the panel placement of elan's shock's at Belkar's comment in the 17th one. Given both that it's the first thing we see after the 16'ths mention of a last minute hero making a better story then this mess (ironically enough), Elan's plan, and Tarquin's grasp of Narrative Causality, (not to mention his thoughtful expression 4 panels later), I want to see where this going. Maybe Elan just got outplayed. Maybe he clicked an essential for the plan. Maybe he's deduced Tarquin's. I can see few enough ways of getting into the worlds good books then saving it from destruction, or a better legend. Hell, the amount of belief he could get from that might elevate him to god status. Possibilities! :D.

Thank you Giant!

[Filippo]

Boom! Belkar goes all wolverine-like (or vegeta-like) but keeping his original taste. As I said about last comic Durkon really gives our shoeless killer something hard to work out. You can be Evil as a demon, but still it hurts when you lose one of your few true friends

[Apricot]

I dont see what Belkar said that was insulting or upsetting. He basically told Roy how much his party needs him and then told him he cant quit now because his best friend just died for the cause. I mean, he said the perfect thing to get some one to snap out self pity. I dont know how he hurt Roy in that speech at all.

He called Roy a whiny *****, which was the insult. What made it hurt was that it was true.

EDIT: I find it mildly amusing that I can't use a word which was in the comic on these forums.

[Swashbuckler]

... and THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why I love the character Belkar. :smallamused:

[pendell]

Well spoken, Belkar. The mission's not over yet. Yes, both enemies have overwhelming power compared to the party at this point so that means we can't simply overpower them for victory. But there's not enough time to retreat. If we do that, one of the two evil factions may very well secure the gate.

So the thing to do is go to the gate and either destroy it if possible, or allow the two evil factions to fight each other and hope for an opening.

Of course, I also don't find Belkar's line about "Durkon died for nothing" convincing in any way at all. That's an example of the sunk cost fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_ fallacy). The only thing worse than ONE party member dying for nothing is MORE party members being thrown away in a futile gesture.

But I don't think we're at that point yet. Get to the gate and if nothing else, look for that one golden moment where one sword-swinging maniac can tip the scales (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) . We've had this discussion in-comic before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html). Having less power doesn't mean giving up -- it means being clever instead of seeking open battle. Doing less with more. Finding ways to leverage what power you have. Local superiority. Attack the enemy where he is weak and you are strong.

Be cunning. Haley can help with this.

After all, although being down their only cleric puts them in a terrible situation, it doesn't change the fact that Xykon was always a CR-impossible battle to begin with. Fighting overpowered enemies directly is a bad idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html). You'd think Roy would have learned that from studying his world's equivalent of Sun Tzu or Clausewitz, or at least from his last visit to Cloudland, but evidently not.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[rgrekejin]

...you know, for some reason, Belkar here reminds me of Sojiro from Rurouni Kenshin. It isn't that he has suddenly grown some emotional depth - it's probably always been there, it's just that the façade is starting to slip a little.

[Apricot]

In Exemplars of Evil- a ranger gains the Prodigy of Strength template from years in a giant's fortress- where everything he had to use, was much larger and heavier than normal.

Maybe Belkar could have gained Prodigy of Wisdom that way- from being around wiser people and learning from them?

Though I doubt it.

I agree. That sort of thing is for something really, REALLY exceptional. Moral philosophy 101 is not the same as years of constant physical exertion. I'd imagine Prodigy of Wisdom would be something more like spending years with a philosophical luminary, a Socrates or a Laozi or what have you. Although the other party members weren't completely lacking in wisdom, they just don't get up to that level.

Shojo, though... He might have the wisdom necessary for this. He had the intelligence to run a country through deceit and the wisdom to do so morally. But Belkar only had a few conversations with him, one of which was after he was dead. I don't think that counts. So that leaves us at square one.

[Zonkerbl]

*sniff!*
Yay, Belkar!

[Prospero7]

CRAP! I was hoping to see what was behind the door this strip. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

So that leaves us at square one.

He could have spent a point on Wis after reaching 16th level.

That requires him to have reached 16th level fairly recently though.

[Torrasque]

So awesome to see Belkars growth continue

[Bastian Weaver]

Belkar is so awesome.
I'm going to miss him so much...

[Apricot]

He could have spent a point on Wis after reaching 16th level.

That requires him to have reached 16th level fairly recently though.

Would one point of Wisdom have this kind of an impact, though? He's lecturing Roy on morality and correctly identifying party dynamics. That kind of insight is something I don't remember seeing out of the rest of the party (bar Durkon), and so even if we assume some sort of circumstance bonus on account of Belkar's "outsider" position (he's looking in on the rest of society, and so he's able to see what's happening more easily on account of not being emotionally invested into most of it), that still seems like 2 or possibly 3 points. Not 4, though. He still hurts things, as he so accurately mentions.

EDIT: Let's get a crazy fan theory going. When Durkon was sucking Con from Belkar, an equal amount of Wisdom points were transferred back!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I--oh my word. I did not see that coming. And by "that", I mean the punchline at the end. The suckerpunchline. Ow. This is why I keep reading.

[hamishspence]

Would one point of Wisdom have this kind of an impact, though? He's lecturing Roy on morality and correctly identifying party dynamics. That kind of insight is something I don't remember seeing out of the rest of the party (bar Durkon), and so even if we assume some sort of circumstance bonus on account of Belkar's "outsider" position (he's looking in on the rest of society, and so he's able to see what's happening more easily on account of not being emotionally invested into most of it), that still seems like 2 or possibly 3 points.It's mostly because characters can't get more than +1 to a stat at a time by levelling up- I think 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level.

(Prodigy of X only grants +2, in case you're wondering- it's in DMG2. The real value is the +4 bonus to all skill and ability checks which use that stat).

[SavageWombat]

Maybe it's not so much "wisdom and insight" as it is "genre savvy"? I mean, most good-aligned people wouldn't think of that "people who say stuff like 'I've got someone to fight for' tend to win" idea.

[pearl jam]

Wow. I really enjoyed this strip. The last few were all great in different ways, but I really enjoyed this look at Roy and Belkar. :smallsmile:

For all those complaining about disappointment at Roy's reaction to this situation and questioning his leadership, I would merely point out that we had a 126 post thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275169) discussing the possibility that Durkon's death and undeath was going to lead shortly to a TPK. While I believe that the majority of posters in that thread felt that was an unlikely outcome, many people in that thread and others have wondered about how the Order can hope to successfully carry out their quest from here, so it is not surprising that Roy might be asking some very similar questions himself.

As for whether or not the last panel indicates any regret on Belkar's part, I'm uncertain at this time. I can certainly read it that way, particularly when taking into account the comments at the end of the previous comic regarding Belkar. However, it seems just as possible that it could be an indication that he accepts himself for what he is and is preparing to apply that knowledge in full. "I know what I am and I'm going to do what I do best." :smallannoyed:

*Edited to add a forgotten point*
Regarding Belkar's Wisdom score as an indication of his ability to have insights into other characters. It is not necessary, in my opinion, to have a high Wisdom score in order to make the occasional insightful statement. Belkar is frequently shown to completely misconstrue the intentions and thought processes of other members of the Order, as is fitting for someone of his low Wisdom. That does not entirely negate the possibility that he can make a shrewd observation or two on occasion, however, as he has also demonstrated in cases previously mentioned.

[Burner28]

That's true character growth, brought to you by Belkar.

He already had character growth. His faking his character growth ironically turned him from Stupid Evil to an actual cunning Evil character.

[Apricot]

It's mostly because characters can't get more than +1 to a stat at a time by levelling up- I think 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level.

(Prodigy of X only grants +2, in case you're wondering- it's in DMG2. The real value is the +4 bonus to all skill and ability checks which use that stat).

I get what you're on about. It just seems like a bit of a stretch. Then again, the Giant isn't bound by the rules, so it doesn't completely matter either way. I'm just wondering if this will be used as a justification for Belkar using scrolls at any point during this plotline.

[theNater]

Of course, I also don't find Belkar's line about "Durkon died for nothing" convincing in any way at all. That's an example of the sunk cost fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_ fallacy). The only thing worse than ONE party member dying for nothing is MORE party members being thrown away in a futile gesture.
It wouldn't be popular enough to get a name if it didn't have a tendency to work on people.

[Ellye]

SoD-related
I really like the parallel between Belkar<->Roy and Xykon<->Redcloak, with the invoking of guilty survivor feelings. Obviously in different ways, though.
And yes, both Roy and Recloak fell to the sunken cost fallacy.

[Chantelune]

Awesome double strip.

Belkar setting Roy back on track is surprising in some way, but only logical. Roy needed to hear hard truth and those wouldn't come from any other of the remaining member of the order (well, except from V, but she's not there).

I find interesting that Roy is relying so much over resurection, as it seem to be his main point there. Then again, he did explain to Celia that knowing they could be raised was probably why they were so eager to throw themselves in front of danger.

And although I don't like Elan much, I think Roy was too harsh in his "you don't count" claim. In their situation, a poor healer is still better than no healer at all. Sure, he can't bring back the dead, but if it start to suck, he can at least help keeping them alive a bit longer. Sometimes, that's enough to make a difference.

Good thing Durkon's demise didn't happened during the big battle, though, because it seems that would truly be the end of the order then. Roy collapsing like that in the midst of a battle would be catastrophic.

Hopefully, V will be back soon and that will get Roy's moral up a bit.

[Socratov]

*slow-claps*
Well done Belkar! Well. Done.

I don't think it warrants an increase in wisdom, I think it falls under the simple weapons (insults) and Belkar's favored enemy(everything), along with the fact that in DnD you always succeed in telling the truth. What we can at least agree on is that this moment was a major moment of character growth for Belkar

[Turgon9357]

Panel 2, Elan sporting the new tears. :smallfrown:

[Martok]

Damn, that was an amazing comic -- so much character development.

Roy's continuing breakdown and Belkar's apparent regret over who/what he is... I am truly impressed.

[Apricot]

It wouldn't be popular enough to get a name if it didn't have a tendency to work on people.

There are situations where it isn't exactly fallacious, either. Like, let's say you get a mortgage on a home and pay a good amount of money into it. Then later, you decide you want a different home. Assuming you can't sell off the rest of your mortgage to someone else, the best choice is to finish paying off house 1 and then sell it and get house 2, because otherwise you'll end up with nothing.

The essential idea is: if you've already sunk enough into option 1 that choosing option 2 will result in you getting nothing (as opposed to getting something suboptimal with option 1), then it's the right choice to continue with option 1. In this situation, it can be argued that given that option 1 is worth following through with, given that it has the chance of getting them something, and option 2 is certain to get them nothing. I don't entirely agree with that argument, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Burner28]

Roy's continuing breakdown and Belkar's apparent regret over who/what he is... I am truly impressed.

How is he regretting anything? He isn't even sad in the last panel.

[Hamiltonz]

Man that was rough. Roy is the rock and suddenly he's the one crumbling. reading the first comic I wanted to say the fives words that can make anyone feel better, only I never found out what they were. Best I could come up with was, "You are not a loser". Then I read the second comic and I thought, "yeah, kind words just aren't going to cut it", but I'm confused. Roy looks more and more angry then nothing. I know there was a break somewhere internal but it just felt wrong. I don't know. Maybe I just can't realate to what Roy is going through.

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder if Team Evil will be likelier to attack the LG if they Durkon mixed in among them.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Use that Int score Roy! He needs to find some way to get the LG pointed at Team Evil, since the LG is the stronger party at the moment.

[Taren]

You know, I've heard a lot of people saying that the argument Belkar gives here is outside of his depth. That may be true, if we were going with a purely DnD-mechanics situation here. Or maybe not, I'm hardly qualified to determine what a high or low wisdom may allow.

But I just thought I'd point out that this isn't the first time Belkar has Insulted People for the Greater Good. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html) This is certainly a deeper argument, granted, but it's not as if this behavior is out of character for him when he's around or speaking about people who actually resonate with him (In this case, Durkon, and in the last case Shojo)

[maxon]

Blimey. Belkar getting some perspective on himself. This seems like it's going to be seat of their pants stuff. I do hope the spare vampire-cleric gets to RIP at some point.

[hamishspence]

But I just thought I'd point out that this isn't the first time Belkar has Insulted People for the Greater Good. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html) This is certainly a deeper argument, granted, but it's not as if this behavior is out of character for him when he's around or speaking about people who actually resonate with him (In this case, Durkon, and in the last case Shojo)

Agreed. I noted that as well:

His lecture to Hinjo, while a lot shorter, was basically similar:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

[Apricot]

How is he regretting anything? He isn't even sad in the last panel.

Belkar's never shown sadness. Up to this point, he's never gotten sad. When something distresses him, he gets disgruntled or outright angry, which is what we see here. He's definitely not happy with that fact, though.


I wonder if Team Evil will be likelier to attack the LG if they Durkon mixed in among them.

There's not much difference between 99% and 100%. Xykon's dead serious (aha) right now, and he's not going to goof around conducting job interviews in the middle of this battle. Anyone who's standing anywhere near that gate when he shows up is liable to be killed, because he's doing things seriously for the first time.

[Garwain]

Belkar's character growth:

step 1: care for the cat
step 2: care for Durkon's death
step 3: Take V on the lap and talk away the guilt

You'll see, they'll encounter V soon...

[Chad30]

Maybe Belkar will start putting skill points in tracking and spot/listen to help him be more useful in non stabby things. Like V learning how to be a wizard instead of playing like a sorcerer.

I appreciate the double strips.

[Starwaster]

Damn. That made me cry. That was really rough. And nuanced because, yeah, the audience knows that Belkar is more than the little prick Roy assumes him to still be at this point. It was hard on multiple levels. It upsets me to see how badly Roy is dealing with this—not just the despair, but the way he's treating everybody else. And I feel really sad for Belkar in particular, for the self-awareness with which he describes his purpose.


Yeah, that's how Roy is though. He's harsh, sarcastic and abrasive sometimes. He'll usually feel bad about it later because I don't think he likes being that way. But he's also fairly dishonest, especially right now in his dealings with Belkar given what he knows about Belkar's future.

Belkar isn't very honest either, to him the lies and truths are to be dispensed like water depending on his whims at the moment.

Except right now. This is Honest Belkar like we've never seen him before telling Roy exactly what he thinks Roy needs to hear to get him up and moving again. I don't want to start the whole argument over again from last week's thread as to whether Belkar is really having character growth and/or might have an alignment shift, but the events of the last 5-10 minutes or so have clearly affected him. Durkon's sacrifice especially so.

[Apricot]

Agreed. I noted that as well:

It's a good point. I suppose that means there's really no chance of him getting to use a Scroll of Restoration and re-enter the fray. That's a shame, I've liked seeing him in action ever since he stopped being a boring little killfreak.

[warmachine]

Roy is being a little harsh to Elan and he'll have admit that to himself later. Bards don't have the spell power and versatility of Clerics or Wizards but they're still 2/3rds casters. There are still clever tricks they can pull off. Also, Durkon vampire will have lost his Cleric abilities because good gods don't like undead. The Linear Guild don't have a spare.

I reckon the next strip is Roy realising this. When things are going wrong, stop to re-evaluate and you might still save the day.

Once he clears his head Roy should set Haley and Elan out in the hopes of finding Vaarsuvius, then locate and destroy Malack and Durkon vampire with him. It's desperate but playing it safe is no longer an option.

[hamishspence]

Belkar's never shown sadness. Up to this point, he's never gotten sad.

Never under normal circumstances. Once under the influence of magic, though:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html

[Aotrs Commander]

Was that... actual character development from Belkar? Guess that fake character development is having an effect - apoarently when you wear the mask too long, you become the mask...!

Very nicely done.

[hamishspence]

Also, Durkon vampire will have lost his Cleric abilities because good gods don't like undead. The Linear Guild don't have a spare.

They usually get them back fast though:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm
Clerics
Vampire clerics lose their ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. This ability does not affect the vampire’s controller or any other vampires that a master controls. A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.

[Apricot]

Yeah, that's how Roy is though. He's harsh, sarcastic and abrasive sometimes. He'll usually feel bad about it later because I don't think he likes being that way. But he's also fairly dishonest, especially right now in his dealings with Belkar given what he knows about Belkar's future.

Belkar isn't very honest either, to him the lies and truths are to be dispensed like water depending on his whims at the moment.

Except right now. This is Honest Belkar like we've never seen him before telling Roy exactly what he thinks Roy needs to hear to get him up and moving again. I don't want to start the whole argument over again from last week's thread as to whether Belkar is really having character growth and/or might have an alignment shift, but the events of the last 5-10 minutes or so have clearly affected him. Durkon's sacrifice especially so.

As was pointed out in the thread for the last comic, Belkar has never really been a liar. He makes small lies of omission and the like to mess around with Roy, but the biggest lie he's told so far was that he had nothing to do with saving the slavers. In that same comic he says that he's not used to lying. So yeah, telling the truth is the natural state for him, mostly because he doesn't have the imagination to lie.

[AgentofHellfire]

While this is all quite cool, I must say I'm kinda curious what happened to Belkar. This is a guy with a wisdom score that lemmings find laugh-worthy, and suddenly he's trotting around extremely well reasoned arguments and skill at reading people like he was Tarquin himself.

1. The "Wisdom score that lemmings find laugh-worthy" thing was only what Vaarsuvius claimed was the case, and we know about Vaarsuvius' tendency towards overly verbose ways of describing things. In actual fact, while he's been bone-stupid in some arenas (taking a bit to figure out why he should agree to the prison terms of Azure city, for example), he's proven quite capable of both using his own actual past to come up with a lie (he said it "wasn't a bluff", but that's only half-true), and making a fairly well-reasoned argument as to why the Oracle was damn useless and killing him was fine.

2. He strikes me as a Wisdom 8. Generally slower on the uptake, but still capable of some insight now and then--especially when he's personally feeling the same exact sorts of emotions the subject of the pep talk is.

[Pronounceable]

I was expecting the character growth. But I wasn't expecting the wisdom increase.

Giant is doing all he can to make us miss the little guy when he finally kicks the bucket.

[Apricot]

Never under normal circumstances. Once under the influence of magic, though:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html

He also decided that killing people was wrong while under the influence of magic.

Magic: not even once.

[Dr. Gamera]

Wow, that was a great strip. I mean, OOTS is generally high-quality, but that strip was exceptional.

[Ezekiel]

Thank you Belkar! Going forward is still better than wallowing in self-pity, and it's true, Roy IS the only one that can lead the lovable band of misfits. :amused:

[Lkctgo]

While this is all quite cool, I must say I'm kinda curious what happened to Belkar. This is a guy with a wisdom score that lemmings find laugh-worthy, and suddenly he's trotting around extremely well reasoned arguments and skill at reading people like he was Tarquin himself.

If this was an actual campaign we'd be calling the player out for metagaming instead of playing to his stats, most likely.

Actually, I'm of a firm belief that he is playing to his stats. He has been known to be intelligent, but without the wisdom to balance it out.

He was smart enough to know what to say to force Roy to continue the quest, but not wise enough to realise that retreating and regrouping would probably be a better idea.

[The_Tentacle]

Roy is being a little harsh to Elan and he'll have admit that to himself later. Bards don't have the spell power and versatility of Clerics or Wizards but they're still 2/3rds casters. There are still clever tricks they can pull off. Also, Durkon vampire will have lost his Cleric abilities because good gods don't like undead. The Linear Guild don't have a spare.

I reckon the next strip is Roy realising this. When things are going wrong, stop to re-evaluate and you might still save the day.

Once he clears his head Roy should set Haley and Elan out in the hopes of finding Vaarsuvius, then locate and destroy Malack and Durkon vampire with him. It's desperate but playing it safe is no longer an option.

There has already been speculation that that vampire Durkon will now become the first and only priest of Hel. Maybe we will see that Thor abandoned him and betrayed his trust, and so Durkon turns his back.

[Apricot]

He has been known to be intelligent

Not straight-up disagreeing with you, but could you cite your sources here? I was unaware of this, and I'd like to see where you got your information from.

[denthor]

The only thing missing from the hearlless little bastards speach was....


I can I get a healing spell before we move on.

Elan can cast healing.

[Apricot]

The only thing missing from the hearlless little bastards speach was....


I can I get a healing spell before we move on.

Elan can cast healing.

To parrot those who mentioned this before:

Vampire bloodsucking is Con drain, not hitpoint drain. It can't be fixed with healing spells. You need something like Restoration.

[Kish]

The only thing missing from the hearlless little bastards speach was....


I can I get a healing spell before we move on.

Elan can cast healing.
Belkar's hit point loss is trivial to nonexistent. He's mostly taken Constitution drain--and a few negative levels.

Neither of those can Elan do anything about.

[t209]

Oh well, it's like Azure City all over again.

[Wiffleboy]

Is it me or did it seem that Roy managed to get through the five stages of grief rather quickly? Then again what should I expect in a comic?

[The Troubadour]

Wow. For the first time in... Well, ever, I actually like Belkar as a character.

[Kish]

The five stages of grief will really only be applicable if something prevents Durkon's resurrection.

Right now, Roy's effectively found out that his best friend needs a doctor, and getting him to one is likely to be somewhat difficult.

[Apricot]

Is it me or did it seem that Roy managed to get through the five stages of grief rather quickly? Then again what should I expect in a comic?

You should expect the same thing as from any story: when the plot demands it and no graceful resolution is possible, reality gets nudged a little. Would you rather have had five comics about Roy's handling of denial?


The five stages of grief will really only be applicable if something prevents Durkon's resurrection.

Right now, Roy's effectively found out that his best friend needs a doctor, and getting him to one is likely to be somewhat difficult.

...Except in the comic that was just posted, Roy says clearly that he thinks resurrection is impossible. Whether or not that's actually TRUE, it's obviously his perception.

[Stormwolf]

Belkar is too hard on himself - not only is he good at stabbing people but he's also an excellent chef ;)

[Amarsir]

This is why Belkar's awesome. Durkon's death was sad and impacts the party immensely. But from a story standpoint, I'll feel the loss of Belkar even more.

[Ellye]

Not straight-up disagreeing with you, but could you cite your sources here? I was unaware of this, and I'd like to see where you got your information from.I don't think there's an specific citation, but I agree with him.
Belkar is always making snarky comments that show some level of intelligence. He has also shown that he can be a surprisingly tactical combatant (at Azure City) and that he has a pretty decent knowledge of DnD. I always assumed that he has above average INT, and I thought this was commonly agreed with.

[-Sentinel-]

Wow. For the first time in... Well, ever, I actually like Belkar as a character.
Seconded.

This is one of the best moments yet for my least favorite member of the Order. When Belkar single-handedly slaughters dozens of people, it's sorta cool, but it's still expected of him - it doesn't change your opinion of him. This, though...

[Corronchilejano]

Come on, I know you guys are thinking about it.

Sometime, somewhere, a druid with Reincarnate must bring back Belkar.

Although, what Soon told Miko I guess applies both ways (alignments)?

[glocknare]

I don't think it was out of ordinary for Belkar at all. It does not take much to point out the flaws of others, especially if they were obvious. He has always been good at making fun of people and putting them down, meaning he has always seen their flaws. This is just the first time he cited all of them in one go. And goading Roy is really a Belkar trait. So this feels right to me.

Also, we keep talking doom and gloom about the story and what will happen but remember as things get worse and worse there is one tried and true method of story telling: when it appears that the good guys have only a 1 in a million chance of winning, that's when the miracle happens. Things need to get a lot worse to trigger that but still, I'm waiting for it.

And V is just running around panicked and wallowing. Soon she will have to run into the group and bring some much needed, if slight deranged, assistance.

Wonderful strip. I'm going to read it again for the fun of it.

G.

[hamishspence]

I always assumed that he has above average INT, and I thought this was commonly agreed with.

V does compare his mental acuity to that of a table, and even hypothesises that he lacks the brain of a true sentient.

The illithid, however, only thought his brain was "too spicy":
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html

[Silverionmox]

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

[FlawedParadigm]

"And I hope it feels good."
"You hope what feels good?"
"I hope it feels so good to be right. There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?"

[Jay R]

CRAP! I was hoping to see what was behind the door this strip. :smalltongue:

Right now? Roy.


Belkar actually sounds like he regrets that the only thing he's good at is hurting people.

"sounds"? Interesting.

I agree, but I find it intriguing that we are both basing it on sounds, which don't exist. How he sounds is what we make up in our heads.


His lecture to Hinjo, while a lot shorter, was basically similar:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

Another similar occurrence here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html). Belkar's always been willing to say the hard thing quickly and painfully. The subtlety is that he is continuing a previous practice, while reacting to it very differently.

[Once a Fool]

I find it very interesting that Belkar exhibited empathy in this strip, while Roy specifically exhibited a lack of it.


...I'm beginning to wonder if, now that Belkar (possibly) knows about his own death-prophesy, he might not end up sacrificing his own life on behalf of the party.

[hamishspence]

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

At the moment, all we're seeing is, possibly, the teensiest bit of remorse. Repentance involves more.

Belkar's always been willing to say the hard thing quickly and painfully.

To Miko, as well:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html

[MReav]

Not straight-up disagreeing with you, but could you cite your sources here? I was unaware of this, and I'd like to see where you got your information from.

Roy acknowledged that he's too clever to be held in any prison.

To me, Belkar's got an average+ intelligence. It's his Wisdom that's the problem. He can come up with good ideas, but he's also got a lot of bad but sociopathically fun-sounding ideas. Due to his wisdom, he's got difficulty filtering out the latter when it would bite him in the ass.

[MoonCat]

Giant, I would not like to thank you for updating on my birthday.

Because now I'm pretty sure everything else happening on this arbitrary date has been overshadowed, and it's only half past eight.

dsjgqnbrg;fsml' nvblnkjfgsnsbdsbfgnb

I LOVE THIS STRIP

[hamishspence]

Another occasion where Belkar gave Roy a very pointed lecture:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0146.html

[Adeptus]

Awesome pair of strips! Intense... not funny, but instead amazing. All character development and such.

Since when has Belkar had this level of self awareness? Way to go little man :belkar:

[elros]

This double strip was worth waiting a week!
I like how the Giant continues to show that alignment does not mean static characters. Belkar learned the value of sacrifice and the need for perseverance, and he tells Roy what he needed to hear. I don't think Belkar will last too much longer, but at least he will have made a positive impact before he's done.
I also like how sad Elan looked after Roy dismissed him as a spellcaster. And how Haley comforted him.

[stsasser]

Also, we keep talking doom and gloom about the story and what will happen but remember as things get worse and worse there is one tried and true method of story telling: when it appears that the good guys have only a 1 in a million chance of winning, that's when the miracle happens. Things need to get a lot worse to trigger that but still, I'm waiting for it.

Do you think that would 'make a better story than this one'? :belkar:

[Lossoth]

Belkar's awesome character development is great an all, but please don't think that Roy is 'losing it' or turning into a jerk. He's just experiencing a victory crash. His excellent strategic victory over the Linear Guild probably happened less than an hour ago, which is easy to forget considering it happened for us six months ago.
In my personal experience, if I plan something and it results in a resounding victory, then the next defeat, even a miniscule one, hits harder than it would normally. And a major defeat, like the loss of a teammate, would hit even worse.
It's a lot like an adrenaline crash. For all I know, it IS an adrenaline crash.
Roy hasn't gone to the dark side, nor is he in danger of doing so, is all I'm saying.

[Peelee]

Wow. For the first time in... Well, ever, I actually like Belkar as a character.
I was going to say the exact same thing myself. Still won't miss him when he dies, of course.

Giant, I would not like to thank you for updating on my birthday.
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dmstudio/dmstudio1006/dmstudio100600071/7318269-birthday-cake-with-burning-candles.jpg

[Peanut Gallery]

Damn it, Belkar. Why is it the only time I can ever stand your miserable psychopathic character is when you're taking the piss out of Roy? I want to just hate you in peace.

[GigaGuess]

Wow...go Belkar.

Ummm...really not much else to say on this one. Well, aside from "Sunken Cost Fallacy," as mentioned, is a very bad reason to continue. That said, "Either we die on the front lines now, or get ganked once Xykon/LG gets access to the gate later" is a better reason to do what they can.

[Needle]

I'll just say this strip was great, and poor guys :smallfrown:

[Byzantine2]

Anyone else think that was the nicest thing anyone could have done for Roy? He really needed the kick in the pants.

Also: Does that sound like... regret coming from Belkar? That is kinda scary coming from him.

[MoonCat]

I was going to say the exact same thing myself. Still won't miss him when he dies, of course.

-

Thank you. :smallsmile:

[Balok]

The best thing about this strip is how the characters have real foibles. Moments of weakness to counter their moments of strength, emotional highs and lows. It's why this story stands out in the increasingly large crowd.

[Stabbey]

That was fantastic writing. Belkar was absolutely right. What he said was harsh, sure, but it was absolutely the right thing to do to keep things from utter collapse, and to keep Roy from sinking into a pit of despair.

[kurokotetsu]

CAn we get a funny strip about puppies now? I think my heartstrings are strained to the maximum by this point and any more my heart will break.

I blame Cerberus, as did V. Not that it is bad (on the contrary is exceptional) but I need a good Tarquin laugh of Xykon being a lovable psycho a bit after all this Durkon bit.

[Shatteredtower]

Interesting. Two complete comics presented as one? Impressive. Good comics, too. Things are looking Grimm for our fantastic foursome.

[King of Nowhere]

And cooking, belkar. Do not forget about cooking.

[Reddish Mage]

1. The "Wisdom score that lemmings find laugh-worthy" thing was only what Vaarsuvius claimed was the case, and we know about Vaarsuvius' tendency towards overly verbose ways of describing things. In actual fact, while he's been bone-stupid in some arenas (taking a bit to figure out why he should agree to the prison terms of Azure city, for example), he's proven quite capable of both using his own actual past to come up with a lie (he said it "wasn't a bluff", but that's only half-true), and making a fairly well-reasoned argument as to why the Oracle was damn useless and killing him was fine.

2. He strikes me as a Wisdom 8. Generally slower on the uptake, but still capable of some insight now and then--especially when he's personally feeling the same exact sorts of emotions the subject of the pep talk is.

This perhaps belongs in the class/level geekery thread but its blindingly obvious that Belkar's arguments in strip 568 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html) and earlier were 1. decently logical but not profound and 2. totally inappropriate in the circumstances. That's the very example of decent intelligence and low wisdom.

[BobVosh]

Was Belker actually bitter about being there on those terms?

[Anarion]

Really solid writing. After I read it, I realized that the whole comic except for one panel is just the characters standing still against two shades of solid brown, yet the whole thing felt powerful and emotive to me.

Also interesting that Belkar seems to do this. Even before his "reform" he did the same kind of thing to Hinjo and seems to have a knack for getting to the heart of an issue when people are being wimps about it. It's like his one bit of wisdom.



Also: Does that sound like... regret coming from Belkar? That is kinda scary coming from him.

Belkar doesn't look regretful in that last comic. More like a statement of fact, with maybe a hint of spite mixed in.

[TheYell]

I thought Belkar's speech was in line for him. I didn't hear much "reverse psychology" as straight warrior scorn.

I had to look up the sunken cost fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_ fallacy):


The idea of sunk costs is often employed when analyzing business decisions. A common example of a sunk cost for a business is the promotion of a brand name. This type of marketing incurs costs that cannot normally be recovered. It is not typically possible to later "demote" one's brand names in exchange for cash.

Oh Wikipedia, you're so innocent.

[snikrept]

Belkar: Demonstrating more insight into other people's character motivations than we thought. Still not sure if advocating continuing a suicide mission is demonstrating wisdom, though. Roy's plan to leave and focus on seeking more and stronger allies seemed the better one to me.

[Harry Leipzig]

This is the lowest Roy has ever been. I can't believe he was ready to pack it in and call it a day. And I can't believe that it was Belkar who snapped him out of it. Belkar is truly moving from fake character development to real character development. The old Belkar would never have said something so honest. He would have just pointlessly mocked Roy's emotional trauma. This new Belkar called him out on it. And admitted that he's a bad person.

And in other news, the team is back in "flying by the seat of our pants" mode. Which is kinda how they've dealt with most of their problems. Commentary by the Giant on well-laid plans, or coincidence? Knowing the Giant, probably the latter.

[Yagerr]

Man, Rich, you are an amazing writer.

"Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at"

Start another kickstarter so I can throw more money at you.

[Angulf]

Ouch, right in the truth.

[Apricot]

Roy acknowledged that he's too clever to be held in any prison.

To me, Belkar's got an average+ intelligence. It's his Wisdom that's the problem. He can come up with good ideas, but he's also got a lot of bad but sociopathically fun-sounding ideas. Due to his wisdom, he's got difficulty filtering out the latter when it would bite him in the ass.

Not going to quote everyone above as well, but those are all good points. Whether or not Belkar's intelligence is above average is hard to say, but he is capable of doing some clever things. Although this last comment reminded me of a line from a Pratchett novel (paraphrased): "He's not smart, but he's so cunning you wouldn't be able to tell!" I'd say this best describes Belkar's "brain-damaged" intelligence best.

[snikrept]

Also, don't they have any consumables that can help Belkar? Roy might detest him and his speech but he's one of their last remaining assets

[Fish]

:elan: Roy, I'm a spellcaster.

:roy: YOU DON'T COUNT!!

:frown:
Poor Elan.
I have a strong feeling that this is a plot point. The Order is going into the defenses of a paranoid illusionist, who expects to be betrayed by paladins and wizards and druids and such. Elan "doesn't count?" That may be important.

[Vinsfeld]

Is Elan crying on panel 2?

[FlawedParadigm]

Belkar: Demonstrating more insight into other people's character motivations than we thought. Still not sure if advocating continuing a suicide mission is demonstrating wisdom, though. Roy's plan to leave and focus on seeking more and stronger allies seemed the better one to me.

The problem with it being the better plan is that, barring perhaps the two adventurers Durkon found in OtOotPCs - which may have been a one panel throwaway joke - and the possibility that Serini might still be alive somewhere, I'm not sure higher level good guys exist anywhere. The only one we knew of for certain (Miko) is dead and gone, and would never have worked with the Order anyhow. O-Chul seems to be a similar level, but he'd still need to work with the Order. He couldn't face all this on his own.

[Apricot]

Also, don't they have any consumables that can help Belkar? Roy might detest him and his speech but he's one of their last remaining assets

It would have to be a Scroll of Restoration or some kind of potion not exactly contained within the rules (a la Miko's Cure Critical Wounds). They're not guaranteed to have one, and even if they do, Roy's not exactly in a rational frame of mind right now. If they have something like that, it'll come up in the next strip or two. Otherwise, Belkar will continue to be useless.

[Kish]

Also, don't they have any consumables that can help Belkar?
I don't get why people keep posting some variation on, "Why aren't they doing something for Belkar before they move on?" Please don't take this personally, snikrept, you're just the latest one to have posted.

They can't. Constitution drain is serious business. Restoration is a fourth level cleric or paladin spell. It is not something made in potion form without house-ruling. Despite what you may have heard about wands of Cure Wounds, adventuring parties do not normally consider a cleric an optional extra. Welcome to why.

[Shatteredtower]

In the middle of his lecture rant, Belkar says, "Bring your sister, too," when suggesting hiding with Celia.

Was he being considerate of the welfare of Roy's family or creepy? He'd expressed possible interest in her before, at least when it came to deciding whether it was worth his time to help rescue her.

[jaybird]

_______
We're with you. --/ \
| |-- [Say nothing]
Suck it up! --\ /
-------

[Deepbluediver]

I honestly can't say whether Belkar's doing harm or good.

He's keeping the Order moving forward, that's what.

I find it most interesting when Belkar says "The get-the-hell-out-of-here part I can get behind", and if he had just kept his trap shut, thats PROBABLY what would have happened. But Belkar's "quictcher bitchin" speech instead convinced Roy to keep going.

Right now I'm wondering if this was intentional, intentional-but-subconcious, or just Belkar just not being able to see what actions his words would provoke. All three are probably plausible, and each might have at least one entirely different motivation behind it that could indicate any number of things.


Of course, the real question that I know where all wondering is, where the eff is V? If s/he is still in that tunnel, waiting for a zombie mummy to come munch his/er brains, s/he's gonna be waiting an awful long time (since Roy bisected most of them).

[busterswd]

Uh...huh. :smallconfused:

Wow, great little Belkar moment there. Also, very happy that the Giant knows pacing; I'm dying to know what happens next after this one.

[SavageWombat]

In the middle of his lecture rant, Belkar says, "Bring your sister, too," when suggesting hiding with Celia.

Was he being considerate of the welfare of Roy's family or creepy? He'd expressed possible interest in her before, at least when it came to deciding whether it was worth his time to help rescue her.

It's a little subtle for Belkar, so I may be misreading - but he's reminding Roy that it's not just his life on the line if the world goes to hell, but the life of people he cares for more than anything.

[Ardantis]

I really identify with Belkar on this one. A lot of people think I'm the ass (including some in my family). Here Belkar gains the respect of his team and my sympathy.

Now I have to go back and re-read parts of the Belkar story to really figure out what it means to me.

[Apricot]

In the middle of his lecture rant, Belkar says, "Bring your sister, too," when suggesting hiding with Celia.

Was he being considerate of the welfare of Roy's family or creepy? He'd expressed possible interest in her before, at least when it came to deciding whether it was worth his time to help rescue her.

I'd say neither. He was just reflecting what he knew Roy cared about.

[Harry Leipzig]

I'd say neither. He was just reflecting what he knew Roy cared about.

Yes. Belkar seems to be developing a sense of empathy. Probably primitive, ie. "The way I care about Mr. Scruffy," but still, it's there.

[skim172]

I've speculated that Belkar's intensely anti-social personality is partially driven by a sense of his own valuelessness. He engages in self-destructive, violent behaviors, because he has a sense that he doesn't matter that much in the world, that all the other people are more important than him, so f#@* it - no one cares about him, so he doesn't care about them. The universe has been stacked against him from the start, so screw all of you. It's a very self-pitying, resent-filled mindset that has the effect of rationalizing your own misbehavior on the grounds that "They would've done it to me first, anyway" or "It's only fair after what the world did to me already." A lot of criminals have this kind of mindset - it rationalizes a wide range of violent behavior. And it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - be selfish and violent because you think no one values you and the latter quickly becomes the case.

That's all speculation, of course. And I think the Giant has already said that Belkar is just a sociopath.

For this specific strip, I'd say a lot of Belkar's anger is directly a response to Roy first accusing him of somehow hurting Durkon and then openly admitting that he's seen Belkar as a menace all along and he's only kept Belkar around because he expects Belkar to die soon. And then showing that he'd be willing to kill Belkar as well. Belkar probably isn't surprised at Roy's antipathy - but on the other hand, maybe his is. He's put a lot of stock since Greysky City into becoming a team player, and Roy outright declaring he would kill Belkar at a drop of suspicion might come as a shock. Belkar might not be playing the teammate game for the most noble and honorable reasons, but he is sincerely attempting to be a team member and Roy's threat tells him that no, the others still don't see him as one of their own.

Going back to my baseless pseudo-psychobabble speculation, rejection is a big part of the narrative of self-worthlessness. And while for most people, this manifests as anxiety and depression, for certain characters, the reaction is one of resentment, then hatred, then violence. Right after the shock of Durkon intentionally dying in order to save him, Belkar is then rejected by Roy through the threat of violence. Durkon's death shocked him enough to temporarily let down his guard, and right then, Roy hits him hard with the rejection.

[Leirus]

Awesome. Is this... is this Belkar in a guilt trip? "We were bloody useless" "Hurting people is the only thing I am good at". I sense tons of character development coming out of Durkon's death, for everyone involved.

(Oddly enough, even for Durkon himself).

[Harry Leipzig]

Feeds back into the fever dream debate. Did Belkar really have a conversation with Shojo's ghost, or did he have an internal talk with his conscience, which manifested itself as Shojo?

[multilis]

"hurting people is what I am good at".

Belkar gave a pep talk praising the importance of Roy with only a coating of lack of tact in way it was said, poorly faked "hurt".

[Harry Leipzig]

Belkar gave a pep talk praising the importance of Roy with only a coating of lack of tact in way it was said, poorly faked "hurt".

Touche. Belkar is starting to show some hidden depths.

[multilis]

"hurting people is what I am good at".

Belkar gave a pep talk praising the importance of Roy with only a coating of lack of tact in way it was said, poorly faked "hurt".



Feeds back into the fever dream debate. Did Belkar really have a conversation with Shojo's ghost, or did he have an internal talk with his conscience, which manifested itself as Shojo?

Lots of other options as well, eg Mr. Scruffy, Snarl or some other force could be influencing him. Eg if Mr. Scruffy is more than he seems, then Shojo, Belkar, and Malack may have been influence by him when near him.

It has been noted that Snarl has not been seen reaching out of rifts, it could be he has enough people now to populate his new world and doesn't care, or it could be that he isn't where he used to be or he changed into a world.

[LasVegasLawyer]

Is it me or did it seem that Roy managed to get through the five stages of grief rather quickly? Then again what should I expect in a comic?

What makes you think he's gotten through the 5 stages? Looks to me like he's still on Anger. He's angry at Belkar, he's angry at LG, he's angry at himself, he's angry at V for not being there, he's angry at the entire world for putting itself in this situation that caused his best friend's death. Sure, the first part of the strip looks like he's jumped into depression, but that's still just anger. He hasn't coped at all. And now his anger is causing him to lash out at the rest of the party members. If he doesn't bring himself under control, his anger might just cause him to make some severe mistakes in the next few strips.

[The Pilgrim]

:elan: "Roy, I'm a spellcaster"
:roy: "YOU DON'T COUNT"


Gezz, Roy, you are in a maze designed by a master illusionist that is now useless because the illusionists beaming up their defenses have been butchered and the illusions turned off.

Elan is an illusionist. Haley knows how to run a con.

Acknowledge that Elan is not totally useless and command his girlfriend to guide him into beaming up some of the illusions back.

[Apricot]

Yes. Belkar seems to be developing a sense of empathy. Probably primitive, ie. "The way I care about Mr. Scruffy," but still, it's there.

Hmm... although I definitely think Belkar's getting more empathetic, I don't think this is a good example of it. This is just a simple "Roy says he cares about his sister, so I'll mention his sister" sort of deal. You don't need to understand something to be able to use it.

There may be some hidden depths there, but I wouldn't bet too highly on it.

[Deepbluediver]

Feeds back into the fever dream debate. Did Belkar really have a conversation with Shojo's ghost, or did he have an internal talk with his conscience, which manifested itself as Shojo?

Or is the ghost of Shojo simply possessing Belkar?

Crazy theory of the day: Shojo, a heavily chaotic dude, compelled all his life by traditon, responsibility, assassin-happy nobels, and even a frickin order of paladins to walk one very narrow path, and despite managing to the best of his abilities, dies painfully and violently.
Given even half a chance, his soul jumps into the body of a high-level low-will-save adventurer with very loose morals, and sets out on a whirlwind life of fighting monsters, seducing women, finding treasure, and celebrating with friends and allies. :smallbiggrin:

[Bedinsis]

I feel horrible for considering this, but:

In panel 5 of the second page, is it possible that Elan's chock is due to hearing that Durkon was Roy's best friend (and not him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html), not that Elan thought the words were harsh to Roy?

[Ted The Bug]

"Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at" in the context of Belkar's failure to save Durkon comes off to me as surprisingly introspective...wonder if Belkar's time to shine is coming up soon.

You've got me on the edge of my seat, Giant.

[Essex]

:elan: "Roy, I'm a spellcaster"
:roy: "YOU DON'T COUNT"


Gezz, Roy, you are in a maze designed by a master illusionist that is now useless because the illusionists beaming up their defenses have been butchered and the illusions turned off.

Elan is an illusionist. Haley knows how to run a con.

Acknowledge that Elan is not totally useless and command his girlfriend to guide him into beaming up some of the illusions back.

Don't forget that Elan also has healing spells and Belkar is currently in desperate need of healing.

[Harry Leipzig]

Elan is an illusionist. Haley knows how to run a con..

I would rely more Haley than Elan, here. His combat effectiveness has drastically improved ever since he picked up Dashing Swordsman, to the point that he actually aids, rather than hinders, the party. Don't get me wrong, my love of Elan has grown immensely, but just how good are his illusions? Girard could've known spells that Elan's never even heard of. :smallconfused:

[Apricot]

Or is the ghost of Shojo simply possessing Belkar?

Crazy theory of the day: Shojo, a heavily chaotic dude, compelled all his life by traditon, responsibility, assassin-happy nobels, and even a frickin order of paladins to walk one very narrow path, and despite managing to the best of his abilities, dies painfully and violently.
Given even half a chance, his soul jumps into the body of a high-level low-will-save adventurer with very loose morals, and sets out on a whirlwind life of fighting monsters, seducing women, finding treasure, and celebrating with friends and allies. :smallbiggrin:

Lemme one-up you. It's not Belkar he's possessing. It's Mr. Scruffy!

[pendell]

Wait , wait ,wait. What is this "character growth" for Belkar that everyone speaks of? This is the same Coach Belkar last seen snapping Hinjo Out Of Heroic Last Stand Mode (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html).

This isn't character development. It's always been there. Belkar is a tactically savvy character who is more than willing to express his insights, so long as it can be done in some hurtful, cruel way. And because he's smart enough to hold onto it until it can be rationalized, he gets away with it.

He's just as mean a bully as Miko is. The difference is that Belkar is nowhere near as socially inept as Miko is, because he doesn't have a badge to hide behind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[baerdith]

Almost CN FTW?

[JustWantedToSay]

Also, don't they have any consumables that can help Belkar? Roy might detest him and his speech but he's one of their last remaining assets
If anything it would be something V bought (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html), too bad for belkar s/he's not around.

[Nekocon]

Wonderful as usual, Giant.

Is it me or Belkar seems a little bitter about the way the other members of the Order see him? That "Isn't that what you losers keep me around? Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at" pulled a string I didn't know the little pyscho could ever pull.

[Apricot]

"Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at" in the context of Belkar's failure to save Durkon comes off to me as surprisingly introspective...wonder if Belkar's time to shine is coming up soon.

You've got me on the edge of my seat, Giant.

Belkar's time to shine has already begun. Previously, him being awesome was almost exclusively involved with sticking pointy things inside of soft things. Now he's sticking pointy words inside of soft arguments. The halfling keeps getting better!

[Harry Leipzig]

Crazy theory of the day: Shojo, a heavily chaotic dude, compelled all his life by traditon, responsibility, assassin-happy nobels, and even a frickin order of paladins to walk one very narrow path, and despite managing to the best of his abilities, dies painfully and violently.Given even half a chance, his soul jumps into the body of a high-level low-will-save adventurer with very loose morals, and sets out on a whirlwind life of fighting monsters, seducing women, finding treasure, and celebrating with friends and allies. :smallbiggrin:

... Is there a mechanic in 3.5 for this? Because this is frighteningly intriguing. :smalleek:

It would explain a lot, but why hasn't Shojo been more active in Belkar's head? He seems to be letting Belkar run the show, if he is hitching a ride. From what I remember of him, Shojo seems like he would be constantly chattering in Belkar's head. Interesting, but it has it's flaws. :smallconfused:

[Apricot]

Wait , wait ,wait. What is this "character growth" for Belkar that everyone speaks of? This is the same Coach Belkar last seen snapping Hinjo Out Of Heroic Last Stand Mode (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html).

This isn't character development. It's always been there. Belkar is a tactically savvy character who is more than willing to express his insights, so long as it can be done in some hurtful, cruel way. And because he's smart enough to hold onto it until it can be rationalized, he gets away with it.

He's just as mean a bully as Miko is. The difference is that Belkar is nowhere near as socially inept as Miko is, because he doesn't have a badge to hide behind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Consider: in the first scenario, Belkar just wanted to insult Hinjo. In the second scenario, do you think it's reasonable to say that he just wanted to insult Roy? Methodology is similar, but the reasons have changed dramatically.

[Harry Leipzig]

Wait , wait ,wait. What is this "character growth" for Belkar that everyone speaks of? This is the same Coach Belkar last seen snapping Hinjo Out Of Heroic Last Stand Mode (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html).

This isn't character development. It's always been there. Belkar is a tactically savvy character who is more than willing to express his insights, so long as it can be done in some hurtful, cruel way. And because he's smart enough to hold onto it until it can be rationalized, he gets away with it.

He's just as mean a bully as Miko is. The difference is that Belkar is nowhere near as socially inept as Miko is, because he doesn't have a badge to hide behind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Hm, that's true, but I don't know, this time seems different. :smallconfused:

[baerdith]

While this is all quite cool, I must say I'm kinda curious what happened to Belkar. This is a guy with a wisdom score that lemmings find laugh-worthy, and suddenly he's trotting around extremely well reasoned arguments and skill at reading people like he was Tarquin himself.

If this was an actual campaign we'd be calling the player out for metagaming instead of playing to his stats, most likely.
Well, according to the GEEKERY he has hit 16 so +1 to Wis???

[Thalnawr]

I feel horrible for considering this, but:

In panel 5 of the second page, is it possible that Elan's chock is due to hearing that Durkon was Roy's best friend (and not him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html), not that Elan thought the words were harsh to Roy?
I was thinking maybe it was from what Belkar said in the previous panel: "Who knows? It would probably make a better story than this one."

Seems like something that'd shock Elan's bardic sensibilities, but your assumption is equally valid.

[FlawedParadigm]

Belkar is nowhere near as socially inept as

The fact that a sentence even _can_ be started this way without any sarcasm is a frightening proposition in and of itself.

[ellindsey]

Don't forget that Elan also has healing spells and Belkar is currently in desperate need of healing.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, Elan can do nothing to help Belkar. Vampiric drain doesn't drain hit points, it drains levels and Constitution, and Elan can't cast Restoration.

[RNGgod]

It's a little subtle for Belkar, so I may be misreading - but he's reminding Roy that it's not just his life on the line if the world goes to hell, but the life of people he cares for more than anything.

I think it's part of the "suck it up" argument. He's suggesting that giving up is selfish. "Bring your sister too" means "sure, let the whole world go to hell, but don't forget your relative!"

[jidasfire]

Whew, good comic, and well-reflects the situation at hand. I for one certainly felt the despair Roy went through after Durkon died, as I imagine some others must have. As usual, it falls to the jerk to smack some sense into everyone else because, in theory, he's hurting the least (but in actuality, probably not).

I would also want to address the whole sunk cost fallacy point, and why I don't buy it in this case. For one thing, it's not really the crux of Belkar's argument. His main point is that no one else is coming, the day is not going to be saved, and the only people who are in any position to do anything, wounded or no, is the Order. The point about Durkon was specifically designed to hit Roy in the gut, and remind him that Durkon wouldn't want them to quit, certainly not on his account. If the only reason they were carrying on was Durkon dying, that would be one thing, but in a battle between Nale, Tarquin, and Xykon for the Gate, no matter who wins, everyone in the world loses, so what choice do they have but to keep fighting? Ultimately, Durkon's sacrifice meant that the rest of the Order still has a chance, and after the proper prodding, Roy knows that's why he can't give up. So yeah, not a sunk cost fallacy.

[pendell]

Consider: in the first scenario, Belkar just wanted to insult Hinjo. In the second scenario, do you think it's reasonable to say that he just wanted to insult Roy? Methodology is similar, but the reasons have changed dramatically.

Having thought about this, I would describe Belkars thought's thus:

1) I don't want the world to be destroyed, there are millions of people I haven't murdered yet.

2) I don't like to lose.

3) It's bad enough serving under a lawful goody-two-shoes. BUT I REFUSE TO SERVE UNDER A WEEPY ONE! If you're going to be the commanding officer of the sexy shoeless of war, you're going to have to man up.


====

Also, Belkar acted at this point because he saw an opportunity to hurt someone, and he took it. If this problem could have been solved by some other way than hurting Roy, Belkar would not be offering the words of wisdom. He'd let Haley do it. Or he'd find some way to twist it around to being hurtful.

That's the sum of Belkar. He hurts people. That's what he is. That's what he does. The most that can be said is that he can be used as a weapon against greater evils than himself, whether that's a moment of internal weakness or an external hobgoblins. But he is a weapon without any redeeming qualities save, perhaps, a few that have manifested as a result of his association with Mr. Scruffy and Hinjo.



I would also want to address the whole sunk cost fallacy point, and why I don't buy it in this case. For one thing, it's not really the crux of Belkar's argument. His main point is that no one else is coming, the day is not going to be saved, and the only people who are in any position to do anything, wounded or no, is the Order. The point about Durkon was specifically designed to hit Roy in the gut, and remind him that Durkon wouldn't want them to quit, certainly not on his account. If the only reason they were carrying on was Durkon dying, that would be one thing, but in a battle between Nale, Tarquin, and Xykon for the Gate, no matter who wins, everyone in the world loses, so what choice do they have but to keep fighting? Ultimately, Durkon's sacrifice meant that the rest of the Order still has a chance, and after the proper prodding, Roy knows that's why he can't give up. So yeah, not a sunk cost fallacy


I arrive at the same conclusion -- they could continue -- but for different reasons.

I reason that, although their power is minimal, they still retain some ability to influence the outcome of events, and that power is greater than they would have if they withdrew now, because there isn't any assistance within reach.

This is not impacted by Durkon's loss. I would continue regardless of whether Durkon sacrificed himself or not, because it is the course which brings about the greatest potential good. If the calculation were otherwise and I saw no chance whatsoever for any useful action -- as occurred after the gate was destroyed in Azure City -- I would withdraw, and the fact that Durkon sacrificed himself would not alter the calculation one jot. Die so that others may live, don't throw your life away because other people have as well. Increasing the body count so that you don't have to admit to making a mistake is something best left in 1914.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

Wait , wait ,wait. What is this "character growth" for Belkar that everyone speaks of? This is the same Coach Belkar last seen snapping Hinjo Out Of Heroic Last Stand Mode (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html).
Huh. Belkar got all tall and had on an Azurite soldier's uniform in that strip. And who's the halfling who started insulting Hinjo after Belkar had convinced Hinjo to retreat?

No. That was Belkar lobbing a bunch of insults at Hinjo, generally on the theme of it being pathetic that Hinjo cared about honor at all. Speculating that they would have caused Hinjo to agree to leave the city, or respond in any positive way, is...extremely speculative, and the idea that Belkar was any better than fifth-most-helpful to convincing Hinjo to do anything in that strip makes me scratch my head. An exhaustive list of the verifiable effects of said insults goes: "Hinjo glares silently at Belkar." What happened in strip #881 was genuine insight, even to the point of acknowledging he'd done something wrong and that he needed Roy.

[Sir_Leorik]

Wow. Belkar snaps Roy out of his pity party with the most powerful thing he can say: "If we leave now, Durkon will have become an undead monstrosity for nothing. But if we keep going, if we persevere, it will only be because you'll figure out a way for us to triumph."

In a sense Belkar's right; every time Roy wasn't there the OotS screwed up. After Roy abandoned them in Wooden Forest, Haley proceeded to leave Durkon behind, lose control of Belkar, get them captured and then have them almost executed. After Roy was killed by Xykon the OotS fell apart (see Belkar's speech for details). The only time they have succeeded without Roy was against half the Linear Guild in Azure City.

Belkar's speech also mirrors Right-Eye's conversation with Redcloak before Redcloak murdered Right-Eye to save Xykon. Right-Eye had regretted allying with Xykon even before the fiasco at Lirian's Glade, and he wanted nothing more than to destroy Xykon, find his daughter and rebuild his village before he died. But Redcloack was so fixated on "The Plan" that he ignored the fact that Xykon was wasting the lives of Goblins for his own amusement. He'd either kill them for fun or watch gleefully as adventurers slaughtered them for XP. Right-Eye realized that Redcloak was displacing the guilt of the dead goblins by his absolute faith that "The Plan" could still be made to work. If Redcloak allowed Right-Eye to destroy Xykon all of those lives were wasted in pursuit of a meaningless dream. Redcloak couldn't bear that kind of guilt, as Xykon pointed out in his own "pep-talk" after the battle. So long as Redcloak followed Xykon, he could hope they'd succeed and he could justify the death of any goblin, even his own flesh and blood. Because Xykon gave Redcloak the means to justify his Evil acts.

The main difference is that Roy didn't murder Durkon; Durkon chose of his own free will to a) follow Roy, b) defend the Gates from Xykon and c) to defend Belkar from Malack, even if it cost him his own life. As a dwarf, Durkon would want Roy to honor his sacrifice and continue on, even if it gets harder. And that is what Belkar is tossing in Roy's face: yes, this is bad, but how can you ignore the sacrifices that Durkon, your best friend, has made for this team? How can you give up? Belkar just gave Roy the means to get rid of his pessimism.

[Jay R]

Feeds back into the fever dream debate. Did Belkar really have a conversation with Shojo's ghost, or did he have an internal talk with his conscience, which manifested itself as Shojo?

Not his conscience.

1. His conscience doesn't work there any more. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)
2. Your conscience doesn't advise you to cheat, or to fake sincerity.

No, it was his self-interest talking.

But I note that he was healed with a Remove Curse whose password was "Evolve or die." Did the password just unlock the curse, or does it have any residual effect on Belkar?

[Apricot]

Having thought about this, I would describe Belkars thought's thus:

1) I don't want the world to be destroyed, there are millions of people I haven't murdered yet.

2) I don't like to lose.

3) It's bad enough serving under a lawful goody-two-shoes. BUT I REFUSE TO SERVE UNDER A WEEPY ONE! If you're going to be the commanding officer of the sexy shoeless of war, you're going to have to man up.


====

Also, Belkar acted at this point because he saw an opportunity to hurt someone, and he took it. If this problem could have been solved by some other way than hurting Roy, Belkar would not be offering the words of wisdom. He'd let Haley do it. Or he'd find some way to twist it around to being hurtful.

That's the sum of Belkar. He hurts people. That's what he is. That's what he does. The most that can be said is that he can be used as a weapon against greater evils than himself, whether that's a moment of internal weakness or an external hobgoblins. But he is a weapon without any redeeming qualities save, perhaps, a few that have manifested as a result of his association with Mr. Scruffy and Hinjo.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Or you could consider his actions before this, which indicate that he feels actual obligation to Durkon. You could also consider that this entire speech was building Roy up, and it's just that Belkar's had such a twisted past that he doesn't know any other way of doing it outside of being hurtful. We've seen in the past that he's very capable of helping people. He just doesn't know how. That's what he meant by "Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at."

As for why he didn't let Haley do it? It's because Haley has too soft a touch. It takes someone awfully blunt to get across to someone in a bad way like this. Previously, Durkon did that, and in a way that ended up being kind rather than harsh, but now Durkon is unavailable. That just leaves Belkar.

[TheYell]

In the middle of his lecture rant, Belkar says, "Bring your sister, too," when suggesting hiding with Celia.

Was he being considerate of the welfare of Roy's family or creepy? He'd expressed possible interest in her before, at least when it came to deciding whether it was worth his time to help rescue her.

He was being creepy and insulting, suggesting Roy bring her for Belkar. Because that's all life would be good for if they don't keep fighting.

[JackRackham]

This could be incidental, but did anyone else notice that Mr. Scruffy showed up just as Belkar was saying he's only good for hurting people? I take that as a subconscious reminder of Belkar's character growth.

[Apricot]

This could be incidental, but did anyone else notice that Mr. Scruffy showed up just as Belkar was saying he's only good for hurting people? I take that as a subconscious reminder of Belkar's character growth.

I'm almost certain it's just that Mr. Scruffy stayed put until the whole party started moving, but interesting catch.

[Peelee]

This could be incidental, but did anyone else notice that Mr. Scruffy showed up just as Belkar was saying he's only good for hurting people? I take that as a subconscious reminder of Belkar's character growth.

Last panel of the first page.

[Harry Leipzig]

I guess nothing less than a definitive answer from the Giant will clear up the matter of Belkar's character progression. Until then, people will interpret his arc how they want to. Which I guess is kinda the point of good stories.:smallsmile:

[JackRackham]

D***. If only V could have been in earshot for that speech, right?

[stsasser]

:roy: "If we manage to destroy their high-level vampire cleric, they can just be like, "Oh, no problem - we have a spare!" :roy:

If Malack is destroyed, does Durkula automatically and/or necessarily stay with LG?

[BronyHeresy]

Oh Roy. Oh Belkar.

I for one think Rich has been building up to some real character development for Belkar for a while, and I'm really hoping that Durkon's death is the straw that breaks the camel's back. I mean, Belkar's started caring about someone other than himself (even if that someone is just a cat) he's starting to learn to empathize (Enor and Ganjii), and he seems genuinely upset by Durkon's death. I really hope he gets the opportunity to redeem himself and get the converse of "Alas, poor villain" by the time he dies. I'm starting to really believe that Rich has been building up to a "Redemption Equals Death" for Belkar - something which I had hoped for, but not quite believed, for a long time. We've seen that he's capable of good before, when his WIS Score was increased: he just doesn't know how. And I, for one, interpret his "Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at," with at least a note of bitterness.

Points of importance:
-Belkar has shown at least a bare understanding of loyalty. (He uses the point that Roy's best friend got killed as a reason for Roy to continue).
-Belkar seems now to want to continue the mission for some reason other than the opportunity to kill something.
-Belkar has shown the ability to genuinely care about someone other than himself.
-Belkar has actually felt empathy for someone else (something which actual Sociopaths are incapable of). This in particular seems both distressing and confusing to him.

[Dr.Epic]

Man, Captain Wallow-Pants* really is a jerk. Belkar's acting more LG than him.

*That's his name from now on, and that's what I'm gonna call him.

[TheYell]

:roy: "If we manage to destroy their high-level vampire cleric, they can just be like, "Oh, no problem - we have a spare!" :roy:

If Malack is destroyed, does Durkula automatically and/or necessarily stay with LG?

Just about everything Roy said in that rant is incorrect. He wasn't thinking clearly.

[WoLong]

Well, Belkar has now demonstrated that he actually cares about the rest of the world.

[F.Harr]

Well, that was up-bucking. I still don't know what the hell Roy's going to do, though. He needs more personal, pronto. And a plan. A deus ex machina wouldn't go amiss, but I doubt that's going to happen.

Maybe put Elan out in front because he's the one with the happy ending.

[F.Harr]

Just about everything Roy said in that rant is incorrect. He wasn't thinking clearly.

He's desparing, with a twist of panic.

[Harry Leipzig]

Just about everything Roy said in that rant is incorrect. He wasn't thinking clearly.

People experiencing grief over the death of a close friend aren't renowned for their rational thinking. :smallannoyed:

[Geordnet]

Wow. I think Durkon's sacrifice has genuinely moved Belkar.

[the_tick_rules]

Is Belkar becoming introspective? I'm worried :smalleek:

[F.Harr]

D***. If only V could have been in earshot for that speech, right?

Yeah. Of course, V is also feeling epic guilt.

[F.Harr]

People experiencing grief over the death of a close friend aren't renowned for their rational thinking. :smallannoyed:

I've been one. Three times. I can attest to that.

[Harry Leipzig]

Wow. I think Durkon's sacrifice has genuinely moved Belkar.

Roy's death (specifically, Elan's singing) moved him. But Belkar did have a grudge against Roy for keeping him on a fairly tight leash. I don't recall Durkon ever being antagonistic towards Belkar. Food for thought.

[Tundar]

Wow Belkar. I'm at a loss of words.
Though, impressive comes to my mind.

[Sir_Leorik]

I guess nothing less than a definitive answer from the Giant will clear up the matter of Belkar's character progression. Until then, people will interpret his arc how they want to. Which I guess is kinda the point of good stories.:smallsmile:

Until the Oracle's prophecy about Belkar dying comes true, Belkar's character arc in the story is not over. Belkar has grown as a character ever since his "vision quest" that he experienced while he was suffering the final stages of the Mark of Justice curse. Even before that, the Deva reviewing Roy's case file told Roy that he's been a controlling influence on Belkar. After Roy was killed, Belkar began to go out of control. Haley and Celia had no way of reigning him in, and he murdered the Oracle as a result. Thanks to the memory charm, Belkar avoided getting kicked out of the OotS, but the curse, the vision and the influence of Mr. Scruffy have been changing Belkar. That's why he helped Gannji and Enor escape the arena, that's why he crawled back to Roy to let him know about Durkon's fate and that's why he called out Roy.

Belkar's story isn't over until we see the x's in his eyes. (And maybe not even then!)

[F.Harr]

"hurting people is what I am good at".

Belkar gave a pep talk praising the importance of Roy with only a coating of lack of tact in way it was said, poorly faked "hurt".

I don't know if there's time for tact.

They need the A-Team. Where's Liam Neeson or Geaorge Pepard when you need them?

[Sir_Leorik]

I don't recall Durkon ever being antagonistic towards Belkar. Food for thought.

Let (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) me (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html) jog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0683.html) your (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html) memory. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0872.html)

Durkon and Belkar have never gotten along that well.

[happycrow]

:belkar: is definitely up in Wisdom lately.

[Harry Leipzig]

Ok, fair enough. In that case, has the lust/hate protobrain been brought back up yet?:smalltongue:

[Coldwind]

That's why we love Belkar. Nice job.

[allenw]

If anything it would be something V bought (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html), too bad for belkar s/he's not around.

Yeah, 27 Heroism potions would indeed be helpful now. It's a shame their effects (+2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks) don't stack, though.

[Canuck617]

I just want to be one of many who declare that The Giant is on FIRE!! I've been reading since 2005 aka Miko's first Smite Evil, and I'm loving it. Keep it up!!! :biggrin:

[Almaseti]

Damn. Belkar is really surprising everybody these days. I think Roy is going to find Belkar's death a lot more painful than he expected it to be. Speaking of which, he spilled the beans about the death prophecy just a little while ago, isn't Belkar going to ask about that?

[Porthos]

One of the things I've long suspected about this comic is that it is going to have The Order of the Stick succeed where The Order of the Rift failed.

And by fail, I mean where the Order of the Rift ultimately fell apart over their internal tensions and differences.

Here we have a Generation Xerox moment where The Order of the Stick is THIS close to completely collapsing. Hurt Words That Can Never Be Taken Back. Long Simmering Conflicts. Spells Cast Swords About to be Swung In Anger.

But here, the Order of the Stick somehow pulls back from the brink.

This might, just might, be a defining moment for the difference in the fates of the two parties.

Now, of course, there is a major difference as when the Order of the Rift fell apart, the Snarl had been beaten back, while here the Gates are still very much in play. And there could be another testing moment down the road.

But for now at least, The Order of the Stick has passed the initial party implosion moment that the The Order of the Rift so spectularly failed at.

ETA:::

Actually the parallel is even strenghtened as I think about it. After all, it was a Halfling's speech that settled the conflict in both cases. :smallamused:

[Loki_42]

Damn...

This was particularly great, because I just finished rereading Don't Split the Party today.

[SaintRidley]

One of the things I've long suspected about this comic is that it is going to have The Order of the Stick succeed where The Order of the Rift failed.

And by fail, I mean where the Order of the Rift ultimately fell apart over their internal tensions and differences.

Here we have a Generation Xerox moment where The Order of the Stick is THIS close to completely collapsing. Hurt Words That Can Never Be Taken Back. Long Simmering Conflicts. Spells Cast Swords About to be Swung In Anger.

But here, the Order of the Stick somehow pulls back from the brink.

This might, just might, be a defining moment for the difference in the fates of the two parties.

Now, of course, there is a major difference as when the Order of the Rift fell apart, the Snarl had been beaten back, while here the Gates are still very much in play. And there could be another testing moment down the road.

But for now at least, The Order of the Stick has passed the initial party implosion moment that the The Order of the Rift so spectularly failed at.

ETA:::

Actually the parallel is even strenghtened as I think about it. After all, it was a Halfling's speech that settled the conflict in both cases. :smallamused:

Absolutely. The (seemingly) permanent loss of a teammate is always a tough experience for a party. And we're about to witness the real make or break moment.

[Zweisteine]

Hmmm... I wonder what Belkar'll do next...
This is how I see it: Belkar, despite what he believed, has formed genuine bonds with the rest or the Order (they may not have, but he has). Having witnessed one of them die, and the things he said as he died, has made Belkar regret his cruelty a little. I wonder what he'll do next...

And going in there is really the only option right now. maybe there'll be something useful inside. Who knows, it could even be Serini Toormuck. Actually, Serini is my best guess as to what known character could become their next ally. We know she went adventuring after setting up monsters at her gate, and (according to the wiki) that she remained in contact with Draketooth. If Dorukan was still alive relatively recently, she should be too, considering that halflings live longer than humans. But, mind you, this really is just a guess, I am not at all sure about this, and only say it because something amazing will have to happen to save the order now.