Sudden Leap for Extreme Dummies

[Palanan]

I'm using ToB for the first time in my current campaign, and I'm having a flaming bear of a time understanding just how Sudden Leap is supposed to work.

According to the text, you "make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result." Okay...but how does the check result determine the distance?

My first instinct would be that you make a Jump check and compare your result to the first table on p. 77 of the PHB. If your check beats the DC for a particular distance, then you can leap that distance. This sort of makes sense...except if you assume doubled DCs for no running start, then half the time you can't move more than an additional five-foot square, unless you have a truly absurd Jump modifier.

The Leaping Dragon Stance takes care of the running-start issue, but it's not available for another couple of levels after Warblade 1; and in the meantime you're only Suddenly Leaping five or ten feet at most, which seems a little underwhelming.

But I've also seen the opinion, if I'm understanding it correctly, that what you actually do is roll a d20, add your Jump mod, and move the combined distance in feet. I may not be following this, because that leads to a whole spray of uneven distances, like 8, 12 or 17, which don't fit into the typical five- or ten-foot increments of movement. Also, the maneuver text doesn't specify units of distance.

Is that really how it's supposed to work? And if not...how?

[Vaz]

It allows you to Full Attack and move more than 5' without the need for pounce, as well as ignoring difficult terrain balance checks, which for your typical feat starved user is going to struggle with.

Combine with Dragonborn, Raptoran or Thri-Keen for earlier big movement. (A Thri-Keen Warblade is typically having a Jump Modifier of +37-40 at ECL5-6).

But yes, it combines well at later stages.

[Curmudgeon]

Your first instinct is correct: you follow the standard Jump check rules. The Sudden Leap maneuver makes no special provisions for new types of Jump checks. If you have greater than 30' speed or a racial bonus to Jump you'll be better able to make use of this maneuver at low levels. Otherwise, as you noted, the distance you move won't be great.

Also note that all Jump checks have a DC. You pick the distance you want to Jump first, make the check, then move the distance if you succeed — or not, if you fail the check. You don't just Jump some odd distance based on the die roll. Jump works like every other unopposed skill: with a DC to make (or exceed) for success.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks for the concise reply on that. Knowing that you need to select a distance first puts a different perspective on things.

What happens if you, say, try for a jump of 10 feet, and just miss the DC? Do you move five feet, or just sort of give a stunted skip and not go anywhere?

[Curmudgeon]

What happens if you, say, try for a jump of 10 feet, and just miss the DC? Do you move five feet, or just sort of give a stunted skip and not go anywhere?
The rules for Long Jump check failures are intended to cover when your Jump is to span a chasm.
If your check succeeds, you land on your feet at the far end. If you fail the check by less than 5, you don’t clear the distance, but you can make a DC 15 Reflex save to grab the far edge of the gap. You end your movement grasping the far edge. If that leaves you dangling over a chasm or gap, getting up requires a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. So you do move 5' if your DC was for a 10' Jump and you missed by under 5. (That would be a check total in the 16-19 range, with doubled DCs for no running start.) With a check total of 15 or less you don't make that distance. In either failure case you don't land on your feat and you end up grabbing the dirt (which would make you prone without a chasm wall to grab).

[Palanan]

This was a much shorter thread than I expected, but that's all for the best. :smalltongue:

Thanks for the clarifications here, very much appreciated.

[ImaginaryDragon]

That's just one interpretation, though. I've seen quite a few.

But yeah, it is kinda stupid to have it before leaping Dragon stance

[icefractal]

Well, there are some methods that can give you a really good jump bonus. I played a Totemist using the Landshark Claws meld, plus IIRC some things that boosted speed. What with everything, I had +30-something to Jump pretty early on, meaning a 20-foot move with Sudden Leap (or 40 feet if augmenting other movement).

With a low Jump modifier though - yeah, not as useful, although even 5' of extra movement has its benefits.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ImaginaryDragon
That's just one interpretation, though. I've seen quite a few.

If there are other interpretations which make as much sense, I'd certainly be interested in looking at them.


Originally posted by icefractal
Well, there are some methods that can give you a really good jump bonus.

And, this leads into a question that occurred to me after my last post. On the much-consulted p. 77 of the PHB, it mentions that "if your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet." In other words, each additional 10-foot increment of speed nets you a stacking +4 bonus; a speed of 60 should get you a +12 on the check.

The question is, does this bonus accrue only for base speed, or will something like Expeditious Retreat grant the same effect? To me it makes sense that Expeditious Retreat would contribute, since your base speed is a factor even without a running start; thus a magically enhanced base speed should also enhance your Jump check.

But does this actually work?

[Curmudgeon]

Land speed is land speed. Jump calculations don't make any distinctions about how you got that speed.

[Greenish]

One of the amusing side effects being that Expeditious Retreat actually gives you a better bonus to jump than the spell Jump until CL 5.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also you CAN get a running start. Sudden leap can be used to extend a move action with a jump check.

First move your speed in a direction, making sure to end the move going 10ft in a straight line. Then use sudden leap at the end of the move, allowing you to jump after moving in a straight line.

Not the most powerful thing, but sometimes that extra 10-15ft means getting somewhere first or last.

[stack]

Goliaths, who make excellent warblades anyhow, don't need a running start either.

[Person_Man]

Funny story about Jump and slightly unintended consequences:

Player want to play the a really fast, mobile, DC comics Flash-like build.

Rather then saddle him with the a cruddy Scout or Monk build, I homebrew the Vanguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13098583).

Player loves it. Crunch seems balanced. Fun is had by all.

Player re-reads the Jump rules to discover that you gain a bonus based on your land speed.

Vanguard has ridiculous land speed, and has access Tiger Claw discipline by default. And can thus Jump ridiculous distances.


At first, I thought that it was just too good, and was going to nerf it. But then I stopped myself. Casters have access to flight and teleportation. And most D&D combats tend to take place in an enclosed space. So who cares if a melee character is really fast and can make anime-like Jumps? If everyone is having fun, just go with it.

[Elves]

Also note that all Jump checks have a DC. You pick the distance you want to Jump first, make the check, then move the distance if you succeed

Necro, but this seems to be wrong. Page 63 of the PHB: "To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character's modifiers...The higher the result, the better...Some checks are made against a Difficulty Class (DC)."

That contradicts the idea that a skill check is inherently tied to a DC it's trying to beat.

This is backed up by the language of the maneuvers. Compare the language of Sudden Leap to Swooping Dragon Strike, on the same page. Sudden Leap just says, "you can make a Jump check and move the distance determined by the result", Swooping Dragon says, "you attempt a jump check to leap over your target" and then lists what happens if you fail. Seems like that's one of the "some checks" made against a DC, while Sudden Leap is more open ended.

[Roland St. Jude]

Necro, but ...Sheriff: Don't necro old threads.