IS it ever "okay" to use a prestigious prestige class?

[RedDragons]

IS it ever "okay" to use a prestigious prestige class? I mean do the bard,paliden,ranger actually offer anything that can't be just taken from the regular class itself?

[Jeff the Green]

Yes. In particular, Prestige Paladin lets you be a cleric who can cast paladin spells. And there are some juicy ones on the list.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Prestige bard isn't bad for dread necros or warmages.

[RedDragons]

err...bard is -2 on evocation spells

[Arundel]

err...bard is -2 on evocation spells

Well evocation spells are...not the most useful school of spells in general. Anything they can do, something else does better. *minor exceptions apply*

[Jeff the Green]

Well evocation spells are...not the most useful school of spells in general. Anything they can do, something else does better. *minor exceptions apply*

Yes, but they are warmage's bread and butter gluten-free bread and margarine.

It's okay on beguiler, though. You can even argue that it gives the entire bard list spontaneously available, since beguilers (and DNs and warmages) know their entire spell list.

[Acanous]

It's okay on beguiler, though. You can even argue that it gives the entire bard list spontaneously available, since beguilers (and DNs and warmages) know their entire spell list.

This is an argument? I thought it just up and did, I don't see any other way to read the text.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Beguilers already have most of Bard's list.

Just look at a Warmage's feat burnt on Practiced Spellcaster as a feat spent on +3 CL to the entire bard spell list.

[Logic]

The Paladin is my favorite class, and the prestige Paladin is a way to make the Paladin more useful.

[A_S]

This is an argument? I thought it just up and did, I don't see any other way to read the text.

The Beguiler class description says both that they learn each level of spells as they gain the ability to cast that level, and that their spell list is the same as their spells known list. In adjacent sentences, I believe. Conclude as you will.

[Jeff the Green]

This is an argument? I thought it just up and did, I don't see any other way to read the text.


In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.
"In general," "at the game master's discretion" and "the game master may" are the bane of RAW.

[Spuddles]

Yes, but they are warmage's bread and butter gluten-free bread and margarine.

It's okay on beguiler, though. You can even argue that it gives the entire bard list spontaneously available, since beguilers (and DNs and warmages) know their entire spell list.

Warmages bread & butter is actually conjuration. Most of the evocations on their list are trap actions.

[RedDragons]

The in general part,


Does that translate to ..


Beguiler 3rd level casting = 3 rd level casting bard


or Beguiler 3rd levl casting = 3rd 2nd 1st casting bard

[Ashtagon]

My understanding is that the prestige classes in the "prestige $base_class" series are only meant to be used in campaigns where the DM has banned the corresponding base class. That is, in a campaign where the "prestige paladin" prestige class exists, there is no "paladin" base class, and vice versa.

[Seharvepernfan]

If it weren't for the retarded feat prerequisites, prestige ranger would be better than regular ranger.

[Psyren]

Yes they are very useful, because they are a way of putting the nicer class features of weaker classes onto a more robust casting chassis. For instance, you can put Divine Grace onto a Favored Soul, and they get a lot more mileage out of their Cha score so they will likely have more of it.


"In general," "at the game master's discretion" and "the game master may" are the bane of RAW.

"In general" means "You get this unless specifically banned" which is actually the boon of RAW.

The "discretion" and "may" bits refer to splatbook bard spells; you definitely get all the core bard ones by default. Congrats, your Beguiler can now heal and summon monsters.


The in general part,


Does that translate to ..


Beguiler 3rd level casting = 3 rd level casting bard


or Beguiler 3rd levl casting = 3rd 2nd 1st casting bard

"At the same levels for the standard class" refers to spell level, not class level. So a 5th-level Bard spell will be a 5th-level spell for a Beguiler as well, even though they get their 5th-level spells several levels earlier than Bards do.

[JaronK]

PrC Paladin is WAY better than the regular one. You can enter it via Persistent Divine Power with Cloistered Cleric 7, pop in for a long enough dip to get the mount, and then throw on the Holy Mount feat. Congratulations, you can do everything a normal Paladin can do, only better. Your mount is better, your casting is WAY better, and any spell like abilities you've lost are made up for with spells that do the same thing. Feel free to add in more appropriate PrCs like Church Inquisitor or Divine Oracle or Contemplative for more fun.

JaronK

[Sgt. Cookie]

Yes, yes a thousand times yes. There are a couple of tricks you can use to get 9ths on both Prestige Bard and Paladin.

Prestige Paladin: Savage Bard 6/Ur-Priest 3/PrC Paladin 11. You have to be Evil to get into ur-priest, but you can advance ur-priest casting regardless of alignment.

Prestige Bard: Arbitrary full caster 7/PrC Bard 3/Sublime Chord 1/PrC Bard 9 (Advancing Sublime Chord)


Personaly, I like to use Prestige Bard to advance Warlock, with a Beguiler dip for preqs. This is because the Prestige Bard/Paladin/Ranger don't explicitly state what spellcasting they advance, unlike say, Rainbow Savant.

Prestige Bard gets even crazier when you add Lyric Thurmaturge into the mix as it advances spellcasting "As if you had taken a level in the Bard class" and by extension Prestige Bard.

[mattie_p]

Sgt Cookie, you ever going to finish up your prestigious handbook?

[Sgt. Cookie]

I have been neglecting that...:smallredface: But yeah, I will. Paladin is up next and I think I've trawled through about half my books. I'll have Paladin up soonish.

[RedDragons]

Would you say the prestigious pally, is actually better, as you are not hung up by the Pally code?

[Sgt. Cookie]

Prestigious Paladin is just better. Full stop. Code or no Code. If you have the chance to use Prestige Paladin, you use it instead of regular Paladin. No exceptions. No excuses.

[mattie_p]

Would you say the prestigious pally, is actually better, as you are not hung up by the Pally code?

Umm, yes you are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin).


Code of Conduct and Associates
These restrictions are the same as those described for the standard paladin class.

It is at the tail end of the class description, after all class features.

[Daftendirekt]

Erm, Prestige Paladin has the code of conduct. Check the page, right below the table.

"Code of Conduct and Associates: These restrictions are the same as those described in the Player's Handbook."

[JaronK]

Yeah, the code is still there. Doing evil builds with it requires also using the Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter/Freedom variants and assuming they can be combined with PrC Paladin (which is reasonable, but not explicitly allowed).

Certainly and Unseelie Fey Hexblade/Binder/Ur Priest/PrC Paladin of Tyranny/Tenebrous Apostate would be extremely devastating... 6+Cha mod subtracted from the saves of all nearby enemies in addition to everything else.

JaronK

[RedDragons]

How does a Cleric 4 , crusader 1 , Prc pally 1 Go down for flavor?

[8wGremlin]

if DM allowed would combining Pathfinder Oracle; with Life Mastery, taking life link, channel and turn undead feats and the prestige paladin be good?

[RedDragons]

uhg, that is cheating lol

[navar100]

The only thing paladin has over prestige paladin is a significant amount of more damage on smite evil. Otherwise, you are at one less level on all paladinesque abilities as a prestige paladin than a paladin of the same character level that mean anything based on level - lay on hands and Bonded Mount statistics. Both paladin and prestige paladin are better off spending a feat on a divine feat to use turn undead to fuel something more useful. If you enter prestige paladin as a 4/1 fighter/cleric you have a good number of feats to build on and cleric spellcasting while obviously not as good as a cleric is better than a paladin. You can even have weapon specialization if you want. If you enter as a 2/3 fighter/cleric you have one less feat and a little less hit points but more potent spellcasting.

The big issue is what to do about Battle Blessing. That feat was only intended for the regular paladin, which isn't broken. For a prestige paladin that has cleric spellcasting, it could be due to more potent cleric spells and having more spells per day in general. It's probably for the best not to allow it for prestige paladin despite how cool it would be.

[Chronos]

I like the concept of Prestige Paladin, since most paladins of literature and legend started off as something else before getting the Call. But I don't like the execution. The way it's written, it's basically aimed at a cleric entry, but what about a fighter who gets the Call to become a paladin?

[Pickford]

IS it ever "okay" to use a prestigious prestige class? I mean do the bard,paliden,ranger actually offer anything that can't be just taken from the regular class itself?

If the PrC versions are available the regular classes aren't....so that's when it's okay.

edit:

This is an argument? I thought it just up and did, I don't see any other way to read the text.

No it's not. You cast spells based on your class level of the caster (so you can't be a 19th level cleric, pick up 1 level of sorcerer and then cast all wizard spells too)

[Lonely Tylenol]

How does a Cleric 4 , crusader 1 , Prc pally 1 Go down for flavor?

This is the best E6 Cleric build. :smallwink:

[DarkSonic1337]

No it's not. You cast spells based on your class level of the caster (so you can't be a 19th level cleric, pick up 1 level of sorcerer and then cast all wizard spells too)

Have you read how beguilers and warmages learn spells? (aka they know all of them)

Warmages know every spell on their list. Period

Beguiler's learn every spell on their list of a particular level the moment they gain access to that level of spells (your definition of "gain access" may vary?)

Both classes instantaneously learn a spell the moment it is added to their spell list (provided that the beguiler is a high enough level to have access to that level of spells of course).

[JaronK]

I like the concept of Prestige Paladin, since most paladins of literature and legend started off as something else before getting the Call. But I don't like the execution. The way it's written, it's basically aimed at a cleric entry, but what about a fighter who gets the Call to become a paladin?

Actually it's designed as much for Fighter entry as Cleric. Fighter 4/Cleric 1 qualifies just fine, IIRC. So a Fighter that hears the calling of his god just takes one level in Cleric and goes right on in.

JaronK

[Yogibear41]

Yes. In particular, Prestige Paladin lets you be a cleric who can cast paladin spells. And there are some juicy ones on the list.

Are you sure you can cast paladin spells and not just cleric spells? It says it advances your previous casting class, so wouldn't that only be off the cleric list?

[JaronK]

There's a note in UA that lets you cast any Paladin only spell (the same goes for PrC Bard and Ranger). It's a little funny how it says it though... it basically says you definitely get the core spells but only maybe get the rest.

JaronK

[Pickford]

Have you read how beguilers and warmages learn spells? (aka they know all of them)

Warmages know every spell on their list. Period

Beguiler's learn every spell on their list of a particular level the moment they gain access to that level of spells (your definition of "gain access" may vary?)

Both classes instantaneously learn a spell the moment it is added to their spell list (provided that the beguiler is a high enough level to have access to that level of spells of course).

And taking 'another' class doesn't add to the 'beguiler' class spell list. Nowhere in there does it say the Beguiler class learns other class spells.

[Yogibear41]

There's a note in UA that lets you cast any Paladin only spell (the same goes for PrC Bard and Ranger). It's a little funny how it says it though... it basically says you definitely get the core spells but only maybe get the rest.

JaronK

In that case, thats freaking awesome. How does battle blessing work with this prestige class?

[WhatBigTeeth]

And taking 'another' class doesn't add to the 'beguiler' class spell list. Nowhere in there does it say the Beguiler class learns other class spells.
"The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class."

Whether the word "unique" undermines the degree of claims might be up for debate, as might the meaningfulness of the phrase "unique to that class's spell list" in a game with prolonged expansion and the Chameleon/Archivist/StP Erudite classes, but whether the beguiler learns other spells really shouldn't. That part is very clear.

[JaronK]

In that case, thats freaking awesome. How does battle blessing work with this prestige class?

Unclear, really, as it's hard to say what a "Paladin Spell" is in this case. That's up to your DM. If it works, then Cleric or Archivist into PrC Paladin becomes obscenely powerful.

JaronK

[RedDragons]

If you go by Core Only


Unique spells are as follows


Bard: the laughing line and retirve stuff.


Rangers: A few choices here

Paliden: Heal Mount

[Pickford]

"The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class."

Whether the word "unique" undermines the degree of claims might be up for debate, as might the meaningfulness of the phrase "unique to that class's spell list" in a game with prolonged expansion and the Chameleon/Archivist/StP Erudite classes, but whether the beguiler learns other spells really shouldn't. That part is very clear.

Ah curses, missed that box. Hrm, by that reading a PrC bard never learns 6th level spells, as they are available to a Bard at 16th level.

edit: Still, this only takes hold in a universe where Bards/Paladins/Rangers don't exist except as PrCs.

[RedDragons]

AKA


It is alterntive rules and up to the DM mercy anyways.

[Daftendirekt]

Paliden: Heal Mount

Holy Sword as well.

[Totally Guy]

I quite like the idea of the Wizard 2, Human Paragon 3, Prestige Bard.

You pump Int and use him as a skill monkey.

Of course our interpretation was that unique spells just meant access to spells otherwise on the class spell list such as Cure Light Wounds for bards. The alternative reading was dismissed as silly as it'd require checking too many books to build up and knock down the spell lists.

[RedDragons]

Keeping this Core only, is probably important for keeping it strong but not OP.

[Acanous]

Keeping this Core only, is probably important for keeping it strong but not OP.

I don't see how limiting to core takes it down a peg from "OP" to "Practical". Most of the borked spells are IN core.

[Philistine]

More to the point, the Prestige Base Classes themselves are not Core.

[Ashtagon]

More to the point, the Prestige Base Classes themselves are not Core.

Prestige classes as a general concept are not core. As noted in the DMG, the entire concept of prestige classes is an optional rules component.

[Daftendirekt]

Prestige classes as a general concept are not core. As noted in the DMG, the entire concept of prestige classes is an optional rules component.

Right, except it's really not. Base classes 1-20 suck in nearly every case.

[Ashtagon]

Right, except it's really not. Base classes 1-20 suck in nearly every case.

It's not that base classes suck (fighter and monk excepted), it's that prestige classes allow power creep to insane levels, resulting in relative suck. Relative suck is not absolute suck.

Full caster 20 beats out any tricked out melee build that abuses prestige classes.

[Mirakk]

The big issue is what to do about Battle Blessing. That feat was only intended for the regular paladin, which isn't broken. For a prestige paladin that has cleric spellcasting, it could be due to more potent cleric spells and having more spells per day in general. It's probably for the best not to allow it for prestige paladin despite how cool it would be.

I always handled this as written. Battle Blessing says you can cast PALADIN spells as swift actions. If it's not on the Paladin list, you get the normal casting time. It keeps the balance just fine.

[WhatBigTeeth]

I always handled this as written.
"Paladin spells" isn't a game term. It could just as easily mean spells on the paladin spell list (which would let a glory-domain Cleric auto-quicken his protections from evil and holy swords), spells cast from paladin spell slots (which would let a SotAO Paladin auto-quicken his polymorphs and hastes) or spells cast by paladins (which would open one hell of a door for prestige paladins of any sort). None of these would be using the feat in a way other than it's written.

The writing is imprecise enough that someone in any game will have to make the call on exactly what the text means.