OotS + Linear guild = truth?

[Mastikator]

Yeah, it's time for another ridiculous speculation.

Since it's very unlikely that either the Linear guild nor the Oots can take out Xykon (and Redcloak), but they might be able to oppose him if they work together, now that Durkon has passed on to the other side he might serve as a force to bring them together once Malack releases him from his thrall, at least if he reaches out to the order and they accept him. It is the only way that the Oots and the Linear guild doesn't both lose.
If not Durkon, then the FCC might want to broker such an alliance, since they have the imp, and the imp has the drow wizard, and Elan has a better relationship with Tarqin than Nale has. Elan could probably convince Tarqin to come over to his side.

What does the playground think of this speculation?

[Mike Havran]

It's probably the most pragmatic thing the Order could try, but it's morally unacceptable. Good guys need to draw the line somewhere and "working with a guy who turned our buddy into a bloodthirsty undead monster" is well beyond that line.

[Finagle]

Yeah, I'm sure OOTS would be just fine with a team member who needs to make frequent pit stops to drain the life out of commoners, and who disintegrates in the sunlight. It's a ridiculous speculation all right.

[asphias]

i for one think you're right on the money.

as we can see right now, oots is heading for rock bottom. the moment redcloak and Xykon arrive, they're done with. i'm not too familiar with the d&d rules, but you cant tell me that - even with V on the scene, they stand any chance right now, let alone with V out of the picture.

But lets analyze the motivations of the linear guild for a moment:
Nale, on the one hand, is simple going for petty nonsensical revenge. Tarquin, on the other, is seeing this as a sport more then anything. test his skill against Roy, see how his sons hold up in battle, and hey, chance of a macguffin that could help his empire.
then we have Malack, who's probably mainly looking forward to the 'end' of the mission, where he can kill Nale, and on the other hand wants to protect his new colleague and brother, Durkon, and possibly following the last wish of the Durkon that was, no more harm to the oots.
kilkil and zz'dri are more or less just following tarquin and nale respectively.
and sabine is out of the picture for now.

sooner or later, Nale and Malack will clash, and once that happens, with nale either dead, fleeing, or otherwise, there is no reason why the linear guild would object to helping the oots. Tarquin will see xykon as an even bigger sport, and a genuine threat to both Elan and his empire, and Malack will honor his fallen comrades last wish by no longer fighting the oots.

and why the oots would accept such an offer? because they don't really have a choice in the matter. They need all the help they can get once xykon arrives, and the only help in the area right now, is the linear guild. the choice will be to ally with your enemies for the greater good, or to die accomplishing nothing. It won't be easy for them, and i expect great Conflict over accepting durkon or not(and thus great character development :smalltongue: ), but it's what they have to do to win this gate. whether that's a decision they like or not.:smallfrown:

edited not to doublepost:

It's probably the most pragmatic thing the Order could try, but it's morally unacceptable. Good guys need to draw the line somewhere and "working with a guy who turned our buddy into a bloodthirsty undead monster" is well beyond that line.

the problem is that letting the gate fall in xykons hands is also morally unacceptable. it's a choice between two evils, but one of the evils concerns the fate of the world, and the other concerns your personal feelings about the guy who wants to help you.

if you're really the good guy, saving the world should be more important then sparing your own feelings.

[Silverionmox]

That joint venture idea comes up regularly lately, but the only perspective from which it makes sense is numerical.

Let's face it:
- Tarquin is the evil overlord of a cruel empire. Roy and Haley were wary of him before, and now even Elan knows he's Bad News.
- Malack has just killed, turned into undead and enthralled their trusted friend an party member.
- Nale has been trying to kill them from the first time they met him.
- Sabine is literally an embodiment of evil and Haley's best enemy.
- Z is tailored to oppose V.

They might get along with Tarquin's accountant, I'll grant that. But otherwise the only strategical advantage they're going to be able to gain from the Linears is to play them out against Xykon, somehow.

[NerdyKris]

It's probably the most pragmatic thing the Order could try, but it's morally unacceptable. Good guys need to draw the line somewhere and "working with a guy who turned our buddy into a bloodthirsty undead monster" is well beyond that line.

Not to get into a morality debate, but "No compromise with evil, ever!" is a Paladin thing, not a "good" thing. They can still compromise with Malack and Vampire Durkon in the interest of, you know, saving the world, with the intention of rescuing Durkon after.

And vampires can drink the blood of the willing too. They can always offer some blood as needed.

Now, I don't think that's going to happen, but it's far from "morally unacceptable" to join forces with the bad guys to take on the worse evil.

[Zallera]

The only way I can see the Order of the Stick keeping Xykon from getting the gate at this point is either teaming up with the linear guild or finding some way of blowing it up.

[Rig]

Tarquin doesn't strike me as an "insane risks which could involve ceasing any and all of your existence" kind of guy. He'll get very inventive with the Gate's if he has them, but wont risk the world in the process. Hell, allying with Tarquin will probably end up having the gates efficiently run.

My key problem with the premise is the assumption that Tarquin doesn't know of Xykon given the events of Azure city and Nale's information. Given that he's still pissing about regardless is what worry's me. I wouldn't put it past him to have gotten some inside information on the demons plans for keeping things even, given his son both dating a demon and Malack in tow.

[Dr.Epic]

I REALLY hope not. It'd be contrived and out of character.

[Bulldog Psion]

I don't think the Linear Guild could defeat Xykon toe to toe either, so "blowing it up" is pretty much their only option.

[Gift Jeraff]

There's also the issue of the Guild defecting to and working for Xykon. The Order doesn't seem to know about Xykon's horrible track record with minions (just an isolated incident with a Chief Executioner who spelled guillotine wrong), so they can't really use the whole "You're in even more danger if you're on his side!" argument without making a Bluff check.

[skim172]

Second on the "contrived and out of character." Has a fanfic-ish quality: "What if the heroes and the evil characters HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER!!! Drama."

Let's establish something: The Linear Guild is EVIL. They consist of a narcissistic near-delusional megalomaniac, a servant of the underworld and literal embodiment of evil, a mentally uninhibited mass murderer who kills people for fun, and a powerful arcane magician who, again, kills people for the hell of it. And now, you add in a crypto-fascist sociopathic war criminal in command of a militarist, slave-powered empire and a walking undead abomination who straight up murdered the nicest, kindest person in the entire cast.

Please set aside the romanticizations of "evil is kewl" or "they're not evil, just misunderstood" - save those delusions for the outlaw rebel on the motorcycle with the leather jacket whose heart cannot be tamed. No matter how loquacious Malack is, how suave Tarq is, how "dark and handsome" Zzdtri is, how adorably stupid Thog is, how loyal Sabine is, how (I have no idea) Nale is - they're all still incredibly evil. And not in that "Evil but in a good cause" or "Evil is just a label society puts on those who don't belong" way, but in the "Would kill you slowly and painfully just for the passing enjoyment of watching your mother cry as you roast to death on a spit" kinda way.

Except for Tarq and Malack, I guess - they're more the "Would burn to death escaped slaves for trivial reasons" and "casually murdered Durkon and then defiled the corpse and soul with unholy magic into a twisted abomination of everything Durkon ever believed in" kinda way.

Let's imagine that Jeffrey Dahmer kills and eats your best friend, and then your boss tells you, guess what: he's your new co-worker! And you've got to work hard to get this project done on time! What a mismatched pair, forced to work together despite their differences, and Dahmer being a crazed murderer who wants to eat your pancreas.

That's essentially what an OOTS-LG team-up would look like.

[Rig]

Which is so crazy it just might work. Not on an even, trusting footing however. Much more like Tarquin keeping his hands in as many pies as possible, and at the very least munchkin his sons.

[EmperorSarda]

Here is the thing everyone is overlooking though, Tarquin and Malack are operating under the basis that Nale can get the ritual. We know this to be impossible.

All it takes is Tarquin offering parlay, letting them exit the pyramid safely, for Roy or one of the others in the Order of the Stick to mention Nale's old employer Xykon, add in that the other gates are destroyed, that Xykon aims to control the world and will be there in the next few days to take this gate. Connect the dots some to realize that there is no way Nale can get the ritual to control the gate, because Xykon for sure is not about to let his part go.

Once all that is established, then there is no sense in Tarquin and Malack being there, and that it is only in their best interests to help out and defeat Xykon.

[Scowling Dragon]

The Linear Guild is MUCH more likely to side with Xykon and try to destroy him with an inside job then work with the OOTS.

[EmperorSarda]

The Linear Guild is MUCH more likely to side with Xykon and try to destroy him with an inside job then work with the OOTS.

Nale and demon lover, yes. But Tarquin is more practical than that I think.

[Zmeoaice]

Nale and demon lover, yes. But Tarquin is more practical than that I think.

Tarquin wants to control the gates, and Xykon and Redcloak are the only ones who "know" how. He might ally with them if just to manipulate them.

[B. Dandelion]

I could see the Order acceding to an extremely temporary alliance lasting the exact duration of time it takes to drive off or destroy Xykon.

I think the issue of the ritual complicates things. Right now it works against an alliance. As of now, the Order's "lose condition" is one that results in the Gate being captured intact. A Gate not being captured intact is Team Evil's lose condition. For the Guild, it is to not capture both a Gate and the ritual. So if Xykon is destroyed or driven off before the ritual is handed over, Team Evil and the Linear Guild both lose. A team-up between the Order and the Guild could only happen if the Guild were to revise its lose condition -- either by retrieving the ritual (which would make driving off Xykon okay as they don't need him any more), or by being pushed so far to the wall they're forced to accept fighting for the status quo over Xykon's probable takeover.


All it takes is Tarquin offering parlay, letting them exit the pyramid safely, for Roy or one of the others in the Order of the Stick to mention Nale's old employer Xykon, add in that the other gates are destroyed, that Xykon aims to control the world and will be there in the next few days to take this gate. Connect the dots some to realize that there is no way Nale can get the ritual to control the gate, because Xykon for sure is not about to let his part go.

That could be a way to "revised lose condition," but I think it's a pretty specific sequence of events being advertised as "all it takes".

Plus, Tarquin has guessed at the existence of a "cliched scenery-chewing villain bent on world conquest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html)" that must be the entity Elan initially came to oppose. For that to be a eureka moment for him, he'd have to have assumed Nale was talking about somebody completely different when he was talking about the ritual -- and also, he'd have to conclude from a completely second-hand account that this villain he's already well on the way to writing off is too savvy for Tarquin to con.

[EmperorSarda]

Tarquin wants to control the gates, and Xykon and Redcloak are the only ones who "know" how. He might ally with them if just to manipulate them.

Maybe. At the same time, he has said he has a vested in Elan defeating scenery-chewing villains (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html), before Nale showed himself.

Maybe Tarquin thinks he can manipulate Xykon and Redcloack, but one he meets them he probably won't be so sure.

[dps]

My key problem with the premise is the assumption that Tarquin doesn't know of Xykon given the events of Azure city and Nale's information. Given that he's still pissing about regardless is what worry's me. I wouldn't put it past him to have gotten some inside information on the demons plans for keeping things even, given his son both dating a demon and Malack in tow.

Unless I've forgotten or missed something, there's zero in-comic evidence that Tarquin has ever even heard of Azure City, or the name "Xykon". All that we can say for sure that he knows about Team Evil is that they are someone who knows the ritual to control a Gate, and that Nale had worked with them before.

All that it takes for him to wise up about Xykon is to ask Vampire!Durkon the right questions.

[EmperorSarda]

All that it takes for him to wise up about Xykon is to ask Vampire!Durkon the right questions.

Tarquin will not get any answers until Malack releases Vampire Durkon from being a Thrall though.

[dps]

Tarquin will not get any answers until Malack releases Vampire Durkon from being a Thrall though.

OK, maybe it's just that I'm not all that up on 3.5 rules, but as long as he's a Thrall, doesn't he have to answer questions truthfully if Malack tell him to?

[EmperorSarda]

OK, maybe it's just that I'm not all that up on 3.5 rules, but as long as he's a Thrall, doesn't he have to answer questions truthfully if Malack tell him to?

I'm honestly not sure, because Durkon's personality is repressed under Thrall-hood. Which most likely means that until Durkon is released from being a thrall, none of his memories are available to use. But... I don't know for sure.

[torugo]

I think people forget what durkon knows...

Durkon knows a lot about the gate and the reasons why he is defending it. Nale doesnt have the full picture and he certainly didnt give all information about it to Tarquin, but I really doubt Tarquin wont question vampire durkon about the gate once he has a chance. Tarquin is the kind of guy who uses information in his favour.

Once Malack discovers the fight is about preventing a god killer to get loose, he will be forced to help the order. I very much doubt Tarquin wont change sides when he knows Xykon is coming to get a gate that will destroy all he worked for.

Nale never had a voice in the new Linear Guild so he will comply or be shut down. As for the order they are not in a position of arguing...xykon is the bigger threat.

[Heksefatter]

Personally, I could see it happening. The Order is desperate. It has no chance whatsoever against the Linear Guild or Xykon. Only half the order is fit for fight.

The only hope in such a case is to parley with Tarquin, explaining that if they can't stop Xykon, both Linear Guild and the Order lose.

However, there are alternatives, which I see as more plausible. The Order did arrive at the gate (or so it seems) before any of its opponents. It is possible that there might be something to turn the tables in there. In fact, the paranoid Girard strikes me as someone who would something for desperate situations at the gate itself. Possibilities could be a self-destruct button (too boring for the story, though) or some sort of weapon or defense. Perhaps some guardian?

[ReaderAt2046]

Not to get into a morality debate, but "No compromise with evil, ever!" is a Paladin thing, not a "good" thing.


Even paladins can acknowledge that "to fight the raven, one may make alliance with the serpent." (quote from Wheel of Time's Whitecloaks, a pretty Miko-ish order.)

[hamishspence]

BoED also says something similar- though it also points out that this is not an excuse to let your evil allies do evil deeds, like hurting innocents, in front of you.

[Akari Itagami]

I REALLY hope not. It'd be contrived and out of character.

I'd second that, given how emotionally disturbed are our heroes in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html

[JSSheridan]

I could see Tarquin and his buddies team up with OotS. Though his motivations are completely different, it's his world too, and that means protecting it sometimes. If Xykon conquers it or the Snarl destroys it, how can he rule the continent with an iron fist and live like a king?

If Nale doesn't see it that way, then I think Tarquin would kill him, but it would tear him up. He does love both his sons, but his pragmatism would win out. He'd show real remorse after it was done, and he'd see Nale's shortcomings as his failures as a father.

Edit: This could be segued into Tarquin arguing to the OotS that he just sacrificed his own son to protect the Gate. He's shown he's serious about defending the Gate, and if the OotS is as well, they'll set aside their feelings and work with him. Though it would be more, "you all are working for me until this is over."

[Longest Skies]

Honestly as much as I like Tarquin, Malack, and Kilkil I just don't see it. Tarquin may be willing to let Elan finish his world-saving quest, and even assist it a little bit. I don't think he would go all out and directly help. Honestly I think he would more likely watch and IDK give dramatic commentary than actually fight.

And the Raving guy is right. Malack did kill Durkon, and though he will honor Durkon's last wishes that doesn't mean he will bend over backwards to help them.

And it seems Kilkil is just a numbers guy with no real combat skills it seems. So maybe help commentary with statistics.

And the rest of the Linear guild, wouldn't even fathom helping. Cause last I checked Sabine is or originally was there for the IFCC (I think that's the three archfiend's collected name.)

Basically It wouldn't be in-character or that cool. :D

[Starwaster]

Yeah, it's time for another ridiculous speculation.

Since it's very unlikely that either the Linear guild nor the Oots can take out Xykon (and Redcloak), but they might be able to oppose him if they work together, now that Durkon has passed on to the other side he might serve as a force to bring them together once Malack releases him from his thrall, at least if he reaches out to the order and they accept him. It is the only way that the Oots and the Linear guild doesn't both lose.
If not Durkon, then the FCC might want to broker such an alliance, since they have the imp, and the imp has the drow wizard, and Elan has a better relationship with Tarqin than Nale has. Elan could probably convince Tarqin to come over to his side.

What does the playground think of this speculation?

Possible, with the exception of the FCC.... why would they want an OotS / LG alliance? They're in this to cause conflict so why join two sides together?

Looks to me like they're planning a three-way battle (or four-way if the Sapphire Guard somehow can make it in time) over the gate. I do think it's in Tarquin's best interest to set aside his best interests for awhile and help 'Elan's Team' out but FCC is going to foil that if they can.

I wouldn't be surprised if they call in their marker on Vaarsuvius and start claiming some quality soul time. V is going to be their unwitting agent at a time when the Order can least afford it.