Why doesn't Vaarsuvius use a wizard's staff?

[Finagle]

Given that Vaarsuvius is so dedicated to arcane power, why doesn't he have a wizard's staff? Other wizards have been seen with them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html). Malack makes very good use of his cleric's staff. Heck, how do you get to level 15 without finding one in loot at the very least?

I know that Vaarsuvius has a quarterstaff in his inventory that has never been seen, but I mean a magical staff.

[Silverionmox]

IMO D&D has devalued the idea of magical items to the point that people think it's abnormal if characters don't have a Walmart worth of stuff by the time they're level 15.

[dps]

It's about V's ego and outlook that everything can be solved with arcane power, remember? It's all about the power of V's mind. A staff isn't arcane power, it's a physical object.

[Kareasint]

It's about V's ego and outlook that everything can be solved with arcane power, remember? It's all about the power of V's mind. A staff isn't arcane power, it's a physical object.

Probably about as good an explanation that is possible. V would view the staff as casting the spell, not him. He also tends to fly a lot which would result in him needing to carry it. Given his recent change of mind concerning arcane power, it is possible that we may see him using a wand in the future since it is easier to carry.

[Morty]

Because he couldn't get his hands on one. Or he couldn't afford it. Sometimes it's that simple.

[Laughing Dragon]

Staves also have a certain masculine inplication ... for the sake of ambiguity, I don't think we will ever see V's hands around one.

[Silverionmox]

V does use a ring of wizardry.

The simplest explanation is that they never encountered one. The things aren't mass-produced, after all.

[NerdyKris]

IMO D&D has devalued the idea of magical items to the point that people think it's abnormal if characters don't have a Walmart worth of stuff by the time they're level 15.

We've seen other characters make regular use of multiple magical items. Nale and Tarquin in particular. Kabuto had magical armor and a ring as well. Xykon has multiple items granting him immunities to positive energy and his favorite area of effect spells.

I'd go with the explanation that V just doesn't believe in using a staff. A ring of wizardry increases your spell slots. A staff is saying "I can't cast this spell myself, so I'll use a staff to do it for me." To V, one increases your own power, the other shows a weakness.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, I'd say it's precisely because it would be useful, and V seems to have set himself up to be as useless as possible most of the time. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

We've seen other characters make regular use of multiple magical items. Nale and Tarquin in particular. Kabuto had magical armor and a ring as well. Xykon has multiple items granting him immunities to positive energy and his favorite area of effect spells.

The one thing all those people have in common is that they're the antagonists. There's never been an instance of any member of the Order being shown to have a dozen useful magical items on their person.

[theinsulabot]

Xykon has an ass load of magical items because he has actually lamented that he is only allowed 8 hours a day to make magical items. Most people don't have that much time or XP to spare.

[Dr.Epic]

It's about V's ego and outlook that everything can be solved with arcane power, remember? It's all about the power of V's mind. A staff isn't arcane power, it's a physical object.

But a soul splice with three of the most evil and powerful casters to have ever lived, that's real power.

[FlawedParadigm]

Because it's not necessary. Rich already has to write V out of half the fight scenes so that V doesn't utterly dominate them in 1-2 rounds. V can solo entire encounters that would wipe the floor with the rest of the order combined excepting maybe Durkon. Malack? Quickened Dispel Magic, Sunburst, take 32d6 (16d6 for being undead, x 2 for being a sunlight-vulnerable creature after QDM removes Protection from Sunlight.), and chances are that's that. Note Durkon had to get into touch range and make an attack roll to do significantly less damage. V would take one round (to reduce Malack to gaseous, anyhow; obviously a little extra work goes into actually destroying a vampire.)

All it would require is V preparing Sunburst itself, since a QDM is useful enough to expect s/he'd have at least one available anyhow. Sunburst is an Evocation so I see no reason unspliced V wouldn't have it (we've only seen it used spliced) and knowing they're expecting to run into Xykon at some point while there, V could well have it prepared.

V is in fact likely to save the Order's bacon pretty soon - most spell slots should still be sitting there unused as soon as V stops guilt-tripping. I imagine you're about to see exactly how unnecessary it is to give V any more magic items.

[Bird]

I like the explanation of it not fitting in with V's personality.

I also find it likely that the Giant prefers the look of V not having a staff.

[Finagle]

Oh, right. :smallmad: I forgot that it's too difficult to come up with challenges so constant party-splitting is the only remaining alternative. Not like Silence or tanglefoot bags or anything else like that.

[Devils_Advocate]

IMO D&D has devalued the idea of magical items to the point that people think it's abnormal if characters don't have a Walmart worth of stuff by the time they're level 15.
That is the context of the question, yes.

High level stuff seems to be relatively rare in this story. The random encounters have mostly been with with relatively low-CR foes unlikely to have powerful magic items, I think. Certainly I find that preferable to "Your characters are capable of plowing through loads of low-level mooks, but that doesn't matter, because encounters are going to be proportionate to party level regardless of whether that makes sense. Might as well not be leveling up at all really, so far as winning fights is concerned."

[Magdela]

Oh, right. :smallmad: I forgot that it's too difficult to come up with challenges so constant party-splitting is the only remaining alternative. Not like Silence or tanglefoot bags or anything else like that.

That's a failure of imagination. Blame yourself for that one. Just because The Giant doesn't cater to your specific way of playing the game doesn't mean he's original.

[snikrept]

Magic staves seem rare.

Leeky activates a staff here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html . Given his surname, he's probably earned a reputation in the world for "that guy who uses the staff," which suggests staff ownership might be something unusual.

Malack activates a staff, but it's been established he custom made the thing himself an he's one of the most powerful casters in the world.

Have we seen anyone else activate a magic staff? I can't recall. Others have been shown carrying them, but those might be nonmagical walking sticks or +1 quarterstaves or something.

[Necris Omega]

Staves are for old bearded men too lazy to walk and too lazy to cast on their own strengths!

... Honestly, given V's attitude towards the concept of even a familiar, it might well just be a matter of taste. Moreover, I think Rich probably doesn't want to bog down the story with too much obsession over -stuff-.

Yeah, it's D&D based, and thus an element of "stuff" will always be there, and it honestly should be, but I think the real question isn't so much "why doesn't V have a staff?" or "what staff would be good for V?", but more "would having a staff benefit V in a way that enhances the story?"

Roy's sword is a central plot device. Elan's sword was part of a major character arc. Haley's Bow was the same. When we get back around to focusing on something V-centric, maybe a staff will work its way in.

[FlawedParadigm]

That's a failure of imagination. Blame yourself for that one. Just because The Giant doesn't cater to your specific way of playing the game doesn't mean he's original.

Well the funnier thing is he's complaining about V having to be written out of fights and...suggesting other ways that would write V out of fights. It's not V's physical presence that needs to be curbed to keep challenges to the Order as challenges, it's V's (and to some extent, Durkon's) spells. I mean, you saw not too long ago what a single Holy Word did to the ENTIRE LINEAR GUILD, barring Tarquin, and him only for being higher level. When you can accomplish that kind of upheaval of an engagement in a single standard action, you're a fearsome beast in your own right.

Consider Fireball: a third level spell, and yet by tenth level, even hitting a lousy three creatures, it can do more damage (30d6 total between all three targets) it can do more damage than some melee builds will do in Epic levels. V can throw 20-odd spells of that or better power level around per day. While flying completely out of bow or melee range, if outdoors. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fireball

[Morty]

Staves are for old bearded men too lazy to walk and too lazy to cast on their own strengths!

... Honestly, given V's attitude towards the concept of even a familiar, it might well just be a matter of taste. Moreover, I think Rich probably doesn't want to bog down the story with too much obsession over -stuff-.

Yeah, it's D&D based, and thus an element of "stuff" will always be there, and it honestly should be, but I think the real question isn't so much "why doesn't V have a staff?" or "what staff would be good for V?", but more "would having a staff benefit V in a way that enhances the story?"

Roy's sword is a central plot device. Elan's sword was part of a major character arc. Haley's Bow was the same. When we get back around to focusing on something V-centric, maybe a staff will work its way in.

That's the best way to put it, really. What would the story gain if V started using a staff? Other than satisfying those readers who can't stop reading the comic as if it was a D&D campaign?

[Finagle]

Being "written out of a fight" and being neutralized by the enemy's combat tactics are two different things. I just find it bizarre that in the entire realm of possible thought, there can not exist a situation, contrived just for such a purpose, that a wizard can't finish off in 1-2 rounds. No, let's just split the party, again, because that never gets old.

[FlawedParadigm]

Being "written out of a fight" and being neutralized by the enemy's combat tactics are two different things. I just find it bizarre that in the entire realm of possible thought, there can not exist a situation, contrived just for such a purpose, that a wizard can't finish off in 1-2 rounds. No, let's just split the party, again, because that never gets old.

No, for the purposes of effect on difficulty/plot challenges, being neutralised or physically removed are not at all different. So long as the caster can't cast, the result is the same. Consider the Miko fights - V had to be written as to barely get any spells off, because otherwise a single failed save on Miko's part would most likely have lost her the fight. Which, if this were tabletop D&D and not a story in a webcomic, could have ruined the entire plot. The Order would have had no particular reason to go looking for Azure City, would never have found out about the Gates and Miko might not have been around to destroy the Azure City Gate. The comic might be over by now and the world doomed if V had won that fight.

Also, if you find it difficult to imagine situations that Wizards can't finish off in 1-2 rounds, then you lack vast amounts of familiarity with the Wizard spell list. Mind you, this is the kind of power V has as one of the LEAST efficient possible Wizard builds. If V were a powergamed Wizard, s/he would have utterly ruined Team Evil single-handedly (barring MAYBE whatever MitD is) while s/he was spliced.

Any time you think you can out-write Rich though, I'll be glad to read your work and see how it stands up though. 'Cause you know what else never gets old? Complaining.

[Stormlock]

It is kind of odd that V is seemingly the poorest member of the order. I suppose she blew some money on researching spells to find Haley, but even so, you'd expect more magical items than just a single ring. Everyone else has at least a couple, barring maybe Durkon who has had to spend crazy amounts on diamonds and such.

I mean, look at Halley. Magic bow (what is that thing, effectively +7 or something? +5 icy burst is crazy) magic dagger, magic boots, potions... oh and a giant sack of gold. Roy has a similarly overpowered weapon, and previously had the bag of tricks, and now a belt of giant strength. Belkar had the ring of jumping and those daggers have got to be magical. Looking at the geekery thread I'm forgetting a ton of stuff too. But all V has is the ring and a headband of intellect (which she doesn't seem to wear any more and was only inferred by casting too many spells for an 18 int character.)

But yeah, if V had a staff to cast stuff for him, he'd be even more overpowered. Even some scrolls would pretty much just ruin the plot. Can you imagine if V got her hands on a scroll of Shapechange? Let alone a Staff of Passage to teleport the order around all day long.

[Vinyadan]

Plottity plot.

I think it is because of narrative reasons. If you have a character having to use too often a magic item, the item becomes boring. In the end, it's just as if he cast the spell, but with a longer, boring procedure.
It's like with the reserve feats: I read of people who hate them, because they actually reduce character options and make them prevedible and boring.

Also, if the protagonists don't have many magic items, opponents become quickly much stronger if they have some. The fights become much more difficult and suspence is increased. And opponents don't get so much screen time, thus not becoming prevedible.

I mean, if Rich wanted to make things easier for the Order, he could have had a pure neutral cleric, a wizard who could teleport and a ranger able at tracking and not crazy evil, a beguiler instead of a bard... If you have a disfunctional party, things get much more interesting for a bystander.

[AngryHobbit]

Why doesn't Belkar wear Armor?, Why doesn't Vaarsuvius use a wizard's staff?
Why doesn't Roy wear helmet? :smallbiggrin:

[Vinyadan]

Why doesn't Roy wear helmet? :smallbiggrin:

http://www.goblinscomic.com/11182005/ :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

But all V has is the ring and a headband of intellect (which she doesn't seem to wear any more and was only inferred by casting too many spells for an 18 int character.)
It's still there, it's just serving as a hair tie now. Where it went during the whole soul splice episode is another question entirely...:smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

IMO D&D has devalued the idea of magical items to the point that people think it's abnormal if characters don't have a Walmart worth of stuff by the time they're level 15.
It's not that "people think" it's abnormal. It is abnormal, because the system requires magic items to function as intended, and is very explicit about the fact.

[King of Nowhere]

Because it's not necessary. Rich already has to write V out of half the fight scenes so that V doesn't utterly dominate them in 1-2 rounds. V can solo entire encounters that would wipe the floor with the rest of the order combined excepting maybe Durkon. Malack? Quickened Dispel Magic, Sunburst, take 32d6 (16d6 for being undead, x 2 for being a sunlight-vulnerable creature after QDM removes Protection from Sunlight.), and chances are that's that. Note Durkon had to get into touch range and make an attack roll to do significantly less damage. V would take one round (to reduce Malack to gaseous, anyhow; obviously a little extra work goes into actually destroying a vampire.)

All it would require is V preparing Sunburst itself, since a QDM is useful enough to expect s/he'd have at least one available anyhow. Sunburst is an Evocation so I see no reason unspliced V wouldn't have it (we've only seen it used spliced) and knowing they're expecting to run into Xykon at some point while there, V could well have it prepared.

V is in fact likely to save the Order's bacon pretty soon - most spell slots should still be sitting there unused as soon as V stops guilt-tripping. I imagine you're about to see exactly how unnecessary it is to give V any more magic items.
I don't know about that. dispel magic caps at +10 to dispel check, so it would be unlikely to have an effect against malack. And even if it works, if malack succeeds in the saving throw (and i think he should have quite strong bonuses here, I'm no expert but a template giving +8 to cr should give some boost to saves too) he will survive and heal himself the next round. And V is equally vulnerable to a cleric wide selection of save or die spells targeting his weak fortitude.

Anyway, I never understood one thing about staffs. wizards are supposed to do gestures with their hands when they cast a spell, so how the hell do they manage to cast a spell whiole wielding a weapon? seems to me they would have to let it fall every time they want to cast, and retrieve it after casting. bloody annoying.

[Stormlock]

Casting spells requires only one free hand.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't know about that. dispel magic caps at +10 to dispel check, so it would be unlikely to have an effect against malack.
Are you sure? While Malack's ECL is bound to be quite high, his actual caster level, which depends only on his cleric levels (and possibly magic items) and not his racial hit dice and level adjustment, is not. It's not inconceivable that V could win an opposed caster level check versus Malack's eleven or so cleric levels, though V does have a poor record of making opposed caster level checks.

That said, this might not actually matter. Sunburst is not natural sunlight, and Protection from Daylight might not hold against it. Protection from Daylight being a homebrew spell, we will not know unless and until it's tested on-panel.


And even if it works, if malack succeeds in the saving throw (and i think he should have quite strong bonuses here, I'm no expert but a template giving +8 to cr should give some boost to saves too) he will survive and heal himself the next round.
The Vampire template gives a +2 bonus to Reflex saves in the form of a +4 bonus to Dexterity. Malack would get that +2 in addition to the bonus from his natural Dexterity, +3 from being a Cleric, plus whatever bonus his racial HD give to Reflex saves (the matter of Malack's race is somewhat controversial). Let's be generous, call him a yuan-ti halfblood, and thus give him a bonus of +5 to Reflex saves from his racial hit dice. Assuming average racial Dexterity, that's a total Reflex save of +11 (+3 Dex +5 RHD +3 Cleric).

V in this scenario, on the other hand, is a wizard casting a level 8 spell with an Intelligence of 23 and with no known boosts to her save DC, which means a DC of 24. Malack would have to roll a natural 13 or better to save against it or, assuming Protection from Daylight isn't a factor for whatever reason, either because it doesn't block Sunburst or because it's been dispelled by the time V gets around to casting Sunburst, be destroyed (or possibly reduced to a gaseous state). Sunburst destroys undead that are specifically harmed by bright light if they do not save against it. Damage dice do not come into it.


And V is equally vulnerable to a cleric wide selection of save or die spells targeting his weak fortitude.
Show me a spell, and I'll show you a defense. Of the save-or-die spells Malack has actually cast, V has a very simple defense: Overland Flight.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Why doesn't V use a wizard's staff?

Simple. Nobody ever called hir smart.

[Dr.Epic]

Because it's not necessary. Rich already has to write V out of half the fight scenes so that V doesn't utterly dominate them in 1-2 rounds. V can solo entire encounters that would wipe the floor with the rest of the order combined excepting maybe Durkon. Malack? Quickened Dispel Magic, Sunburst, take 32d6 (16d6 for being undead, x 2 for being a sunlight-vulnerable creature after QDM removes Protection from Sunlight.), and chances are that's that. Note Durkon had to get into touch range and make an attack roll to do significantly less damage. V would take one round (to reduce Malack to gaseous, anyhow; obviously a little extra work goes into actually destroying a vampire.)

All it would require is V preparing Sunburst itself, since a QDM is useful enough to expect s/he'd have at least one available anyhow. Sunburst is an Evocation so I see no reason unspliced V wouldn't have it (we've only seen it used spliced) and knowing they're expecting to run into Xykon at some point while there, V could well have it prepared.

V is in fact likely to save the Order's bacon pretty soon - most spell slots should still be sitting there unused as soon as V stops guilt-tripping. I imagine you're about to see exactly how unnecessary it is to give V any more magic items.

Really? V can solo it? He wouldn't let pride or some other foolish emotion get in the way and squander his awesome power? How'd that fight against Xykon when he had two epic caster bound to him go again?

[Cavenskull]

Magic staves seem rare.

Leeky activates a staff here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html . Given his surname, he's probably earned a reputation in the world for "that guy who uses the staff," which suggests staff ownership might be something unusual...
Should we make similar assumptions based on Roy's and Durkon's surnames?

[FlawedParadigm]

Really? V can solo it? He wouldn't let pride or some other foolish emotion get in the way and squander his awesome power? How'd that fight against Xykon when he had two epic caster bound to him go again?

1) You're just arguing to argue now, and trying to substitute emotion for numbers, at that. 2) V's entire plotline since the splice has been about how V's been learning to be less prideful and more thoughtful. 200 strips later, one might think that V would probably not make the same mistake this time, yes.

Which is...drum roll...exactly why V had to be written out of the fight!

[jere7my]

Should we make similar assumptions based on Roy's and Durkon's surnames?

You don't reckon Greenhilt has some connection to that green-hilted sword Roy carries around?

[Cavenskull]

You don't reckon Greenhilt has some connection to that green-hilted sword Roy carries around?
I'm quite sure that it does. Any by the logic presented previously regarding Leeky Windstaff, that would suggest that swords (or at least hilts) must be rare, based on Roy's surname. And of course, Durkon's surname by the same logic would also suggest that shields are rare.

[jere7my]

I'm quite sure that it does. Any by the logic presented previously regarding Leeky Windstaff, that would suggest that swords (or at least hilts) must be rare, based on Roy's surname. And of course, Durkon's surname by the same logic would also suggest that shields are rare.

Swords with green hilts are presumably rare enough to serve as a distinguishing characteristic, yes. That's what surnames do, historically — they distinguish "Roy the Smith" from "Roy of Vinci" from "Roy the Guy with the Green-Hilted Sword." Greenhilt, at the time it became a surname, wouldn't have been much use if everybody was running around with a green-hilted sword.

[Stormlock]

V actually has a much simpler way to shut down (albeit not kill) Malack: forcecage. Malack can likely escape with word of recall, but it puts him out of the fight for the meagre cost of a relatively low level spell. Sunburst is a strong option, but Malack could make the reflex save quite easily depending on his stats (he might have better than 10 base dex to begin with), equipment, and buffs. Vampires get lightning reflexes too iirc, which is another 2 free reflex save.

[Magdela]

Well the funnier thing is he's complaining about V having to be written out of fights and...suggesting other ways that would write V out of fights. It's not V's physical presence that needs to be curbed to keep challenges to the Order as challenges, it's V's (and to some extent, Durkon's) spells. I mean, you saw not too long ago what a single Holy Word did to the ENTIRE LINEAR GUILD, barring Tarquin, and him only for being higher level. When you can accomplish that kind of upheaval of an engagement in a single standard action, you're a fearsome beast in your own right.

Consider Fireball: a third level spell, and yet by tenth level, even hitting a lousy three creatures, it can do more damage (30d6 total between all three targets) it can do more damage than some melee builds will do in Epic levels. V can throw 20-odd spells of that or better power level around per day. While flying completely out of bow or melee range, if outdoors. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fireball
Once again, you've fallen prey to the fallacy that V thinks to do these things. Like I said, it is not the playstyle that you want. It is Rich's writing. One effective use of Holy Word was a freak accident in itself, even the Order being surprised.

I don't really see how you have a foot to stand on.

[Stormlock]

You seem to be under the impression that V hasn't been the most effective member of the order by a mile. Let me jog your memory:

Chimera. All V.
Black dragon. All V (as a lizard no less.)
Zzditri and Kilkil 2v1? V's got you covered.
Colossal pit fiend? Good thing V is around. To be fair Durkon did lower it's saving throw.

Not to mention repeatededly demonstrating the ability to handle entire groups with a handful of spells, like the ogre tribe or the thri-keen slavers. Sure, the order can handle them too... by working together and fighting a protracted battle.

Even when fighting in a completely halfassed way V demonstrates the ability to outshine the rest of the order COMBINED. If he actually fought effectively (Why hello there Redcloak. Don't suppose you can cast Disintegrate can you? No? Forcecage. Bye. How about still metamagic? No? Meet my grasping hand and enjoy being pinned while Scruffy kills you.) he would have broken the comic in half a dozen times by now. Then again, this is even worse for Redcloak and Xykon (ESPECIALLY Xykon) so eh, whatever.

[zimmerwald1915]

(Why hello there Redcloak. Don't suppose you can cast Disintegrate can you? No? Forcecage. Bye.
Not to pick nits, but Redcloak can cast Disintegrate.

[Souju]

this thread is giving me great insights into why so many demons and devils have immunities and resistances out the wazoo in 3.5 and pathfinder...

[Kislath]

I would guess it's because V hasn't yet found one worth lugging around. Let hir find a Staff Of Wizardry sometime and we'll put this theory to the test.

[Silverionmox]

It's not that "people think" it's abnormal. It is abnormal, because the system requires magic items to function as intended, and is very explicit about the fact.That's what I mean what I say "D&D has devalued the idea of magic items".

[Cavenskull]

Swords with green hilts are presumably rare enough to serve as a distinguishing characteristic, yes. That's what surnames do, historically — they distinguish "Roy the Smith" from "Roy of Vinci" from "Roy the Guy with the Green-Hilted Sword." Greenhilt, at the time it became a surname, wouldn't have been much use if everybody was running around with a green-hilted sword.
Then how did surnames like Smith, Baker, Hunter, and Mason ever come about, when a person could count on finding people of such occupations just about everywhere? A defining characteristic does not have to be particularly unusual or rare for it to be worth using to describe someone.

Maybe a Windstaff is unusual, but that shouldn't mean that any staff at all is unusual. After all, the druid's name was Leeky Windstaff, not Leeky Staff. My point was that simply having a reference to an item in a name does not by itself make that class of item rare or unusual.

[FlawedParadigm]

Once again, you've fallen prey to the fallacy that V thinks to do these things. Like I said, it is not the playstyle that you want. It is Rich's writing. One effective use of Holy Word was a freak accident in itself, even the Order being surprised.

I don't really see how you have a foot to stand on.

Uhm...V does think to do these things. Young black dragon. Ancient black dragon. Chimera. Yukyuk/the drow, the summoned devil. Honestly the only two encounters non-spliced V has really flubbed were the Death Knight (which was a couple of levels higher and almost designed to destroy casters) and Leeky Windstaff, and that's largely in part because Druids are the only class even more ridiculous (speaking from a single class perspective.) Then there were the ogres, the titanium elementals, most of the goblin encounters...why, oddly, it looks as though V has been the deciding factor in over half the Order's victories!

If you don't see how I have a foot to stand on, try taking the sack off your head. A little light might improve your vision vastly.

[oppyu]

:vaarsuvius: Is reshaping the laws of physics with naught but my incredible intellect not enough for you plebiscites? Do you also require me to lug around a phallic symbol to pointlessly supplement my ultimate arcane power? Perhaps I should also carry a bow, in case scorching my enemy to cinders with my bare hands is not sufficiently entertaining for you.

[King of Nowhere]

Are you sure? While Malack's ECL is bound to be quite high, his actual caster level, which depends only on his cleric levels (and possibly magic items) and not his racial hit dice and level adjustment, is not. It's not inconceivable that V could win an opposed caster level check versus Malack's eleven or so cleric levels, though V does have a poor record of making opposed caster level checks.

That said, this might not actually matter. Sunburst is not natural sunlight, and Protection from Daylight might not hold against it. Protection from Daylight being a homebrew spell, we will not know unless and until it's tested on-panel.


The Vampire template gives a +2 bonus to Reflex saves in the form of a +4 bonus to Dexterity. Malack would get that +2 in addition to the bonus from his natural Dexterity, +3 from being a Cleric, plus whatever bonus his racial HD give to Reflex saves (the matter of Malack's race is somewhat controversial). Let's be generous, call him a yuan-ti halfblood, and thus give him a bonus of +5 to Reflex saves from his racial hit dice. Assuming average racial Dexterity, that's a total Reflex save of +11 (+3 Dex +5 RHD +3 Cleric).

V in this scenario, on the other hand, is a wizard casting a level 8 spell with an Intelligence of 23 and with no known boosts to her save DC, which means a DC of 24. Malack would have to roll a natural 13 or better to save against it or, assuming Protection from Daylight isn't a factor for whatever reason, either because it doesn't block Sunburst or because it's been dispelled by the time V gets around to casting Sunburst, be destroyed (or possibly reduced to a gaseous state). Sunburst destroys undead that are specifically harmed by bright light if they do not save against it. Damage dice do not come into it.


Malack is level 11 or 12 from our knowledge. Assumingn his spell gives some protection (maybe it makes him no more vulnerable to sunburst that a regular human), V would need more than 10 to dispel. And then malack would still stand a chance in 3 of making the saving throw. Overall, chances of instakill aren't extremely high. And that's assuming malack don't have any magical item to boost saving throws. Ok, in oots world people don't seem to have those, otherwise belkar wouldn't be stopped by a hold person. But something worth +5 to all saving throws should cost 25000 gp, and I expect any high level adventurer to have it.
Malack, on the other hand, could reach V (if V flies M could use some other spell, or even a magi item to duplicate the effect) andd use slay living. V should have little chances against it, unless durkon did cast a death ward on him.


Show me a spell, and I'll show you a defense. That's more opr less the point I'm trying to make. It applies to wizards too. A wizard's spells can be resisted or countered. And exactly because wizards are so powerful, I expect any powerful person around to devote more resources and preparation to counter wizards rather than warriors. That will result in soome measure of balancing.


That said, I think the original creators of the game wanted wizards to be more like V oor Xykon than like the powergamers depic them. Powerful wizards, but by no means powerful enough to do everything on their own. Powergamers then just broke the game, finding more powerful ways to use the tools they were given. In many aspects, D&D is balanced for a typical party of average players with small knowledge of powergamming. If they wanted to balance it for powergamers, they would have to make spells much weaker, and that would have left wizards unusable to any othher kind of player.
So I think the wizard in oots are more faithful to the way they were originally conceived.
Also powergamers in my opinion tend to assume too much about what spells one may have prepared. A wizard only have a few high level spells available and certainly cannot have all high level spells in the manual ready to use. In the aformentioned example, the quickened dispel + sunburst combo would take two out of 7 or 8 spell slots above level 7, and would be useful only against a vampire cleric. dispel, capping at +10, would be almost useless against any foe oof V's level who do not suffer a huge level adjustment, and sunburst have little effect against anyone who is not undead. V himself states in his fight with Z that even a wizard cannot be prepared against everything. here are scrolls to cover the gaps, and V has been shown using them, but they are expensive. they may be the reason V don't have as many magic items as the rest of the party.

Another thing, just because casters are more powerful it don't mean other classes are useless. Even if they have to fall to a supportive role, they can still make the difference. In the wheel of time saga channelers have powers comparable to high level casters in D&D (except they don't have inccreased hit dice and still die like everyone else when hit), while even the best swordsman will be comparable to no more than 5th or 6th level fighter. And yet powerful channelers ask people with pointy metal stick to guard their back, and have their lives saved by them.

[Kish]

One effective use of Holy Word was a freak accident in itself, even the Order being surprised.
Huh? It was a freak accident that Roy's plan played out almost exactly the way he planned it to, except that the Linear Guild+Tarquin was able to retreat?

[Aldrakan]

V actually has a much simpler way to shut down (albeit not kill) Malack: forcecage. Malack can likely escape with word of recall, but it puts him out of the fight for the meagre cost of a relatively low level spell.

Couldn't Malack just use Gaseous Form and go right through? At least in the comic it's always been presented as an actual cage with bars, not a solid energy barrier.

[King of Nowhere]

One effective use of Holy Word was a freak accident in itself, even the Order being surprised.
Huh? It was a freak accident that Roy's plan played out almost exactly the way he planned it to, except that the Linear Guild+Tarquin was able to retreat?

I think that's pretty much the point of spellcasting in this comic: if a spellcaster can prepare and act according to the plan, he's very strong. but if one has to improvise in front of an unexpected event, he will be much less effective.
except for a sorceror, who trades a lesser capability to prepare for a better performance when unprepared.

[Kish]

Couldn't Malack just use Gaseous Form and go right through? At least in the comic it's always been presented as an actual cage with bars, not a solid energy barrier.
Either bars of force or solid walls of force, caster's choice. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm)

The smaller solid walls version would have been too small to contain the ancient black dragon at all; Malack is slightly smaller than her.

I am, however, blinking at the idea that level 7 is "relatively low-level."

[Aldrakan]

Either bars of force or solid walls of force, caster's choice. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm)

The smaller solid walls version would have been too small to contain the ancient black dragon at all; Malack is slightly smaller than her.


Ah, thanks. I was misled by Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage to believe that was the standard form.

[Stormlock]

Well, 7th level is a bit up there, but it's still lower than 8th + a dispel, or a half dozen disintegrates and fireballs it would take otherwise. And forcecage is a spell we know V has, is evocation (a free slot) and is probably the most powerful spell for that entire level. The duration, lack of saving throw, and immunity to dispel are all insanely good features. It's one of the most broken spells in the game. It costs thousands of gold to cast for a reason.

Also, it hardly takes a powergamer to make a wizard overpowering in DnD. The game isn't balanced at any level of skill. It doesn't take a power gamer to realize that Fly will be really useful for not getting your face stabbed, or that even weakling critters like summoned monsters 1 or unseen servant can trigger traps for you, or that given a relatively short amount of time compared to actual labour, Wall of Stone and Stoneshape can be used to build an entire fortress, accessible by flight (or even dimension door/teleport) only no less. The list goes on. My personal favourite being Rope Trick. That spell should be 9th level, not 2nd.

And remember, you're comparing this to an unoptimized Fighter (or worse yet, Monk or Barbarian) who's skillset includes doing things a commoner can do, and hitting stuff as long as it's AC isn't too high. You know when you're playing a video game and keep asking yourself "Why doesn't the villain just not open the door? They have no way to get in otherwise." Well that only applies to fighters. They get stopped by doors, holes in the floor, walls, monsters made entirely out of stuff you can't hurt with a metal stick, things that move faster than them and have a ranged attack, things that can fly, things that are invisible, bodies of water, lack of food, long distances, and worst and most common of all; other fighters of comparable level in slightly greater numbers. A wizard is rarely stopped by any of those things for more than a round or two, and almost never for more than an entire day to memorize -a- (not 'the', there are many options) correct spell.

[jere7my]

Then how did surnames like Smith, Baker, Hunter, and Mason ever come about, when a person could count on finding people of such occupations just about everywhere? A defining characteristic does not have to be particularly unusual or rare for it to be worth using to describe someone.

When those names (which are among the oldest) came into being, there would have been only a handful of smiths in a town (at most), so "Roy the Smith" would be sufficient to distinguish him from "Roy the Mason" and "Roy the Baker". People didn't move from town to town much back then, and if someone moved to a town that already had a Roy the Smith he'd be called "Roy from Vinci" or wherever he came from.

The Stickverse, like many D&D campaign worlds, is more cosmopolitan then an authentic medieval world, so the names have to be more specific. Communication and travel over long distances are possible; Roy the Fighter isn't specific enough if people go from city to city on a regular basis and encounter many different fighters. Thus we get "Roy Greenhilt" et al.

[Cavenskull]

When those names (which are among the oldest) came into being, there would have been only a handful of smiths in a town (at most), so "Roy the Smith" would be sufficient to distinguish him from "Roy the Mason" and "Roy the Baker". People didn't move from town to town much back then, and if someone moved to a town that already had a Roy the Smith he'd be called "Roy from Vinci" or wherever he came from.

The Stickverse, like many D&D campaign worlds, is more cosmopolitan then an authentic medieval world, so the names have to be more specific. Communication and travel over long distances are possible; Roy the Fighter isn't specific enough if people go from city to city on a regular basis and encounter many different fighters. Thus we get "Roy Greenhilt" et al.
I think this is starting to go off on a tangent. I see no fault with your argument above, but I don't see how it applies to snikrept's original claim that being named Windstaff would suggest that staffs in general are rare. Here's what snikrept said before:


Leeky activates a staff here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html . Given his surname, he's probably earned a reputation in the world for "that guy who uses the staff," which suggests staff ownership might be something unusual...

If I use that same exact logic on Durkon Thundershield, it would go as follows:


Durkon carries a shield here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html . Given his surname, he's probably earned a reputation in the world for "that guy who uses the shield," which suggests shield ownership might be something unusual...

And here's a version for Roy Greenhilt:

Roy wields a sword here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html . Given his surname, he's probably earned a reputation in the world for "that guy who uses the sword," which suggests sword ownership might be something unusual...

Sure, a Greenhilt sword might be rare.
Sure, a Thundershield might be unusual.
Sure, a Windstaff might be unusual.

But does that by itself justify a claim that all swords, shields, or staffs rare? I think not.

[WoLong]

Staffs are associated with stability, wisdom, maturity, and age.

Vaarsuvius, although intelligent, is a bit childish and unstable. Staffs do not reflect his personality.

[Grogmir]

This thread lacks the usual humour and good nature I normally expect of GITP.

But from might view you're both right and wrong.

The Giant has specifically said he has to write V out of battles, because of his power.
There is only so far you can stretch the "characters don't make optimal choices". Just having V around means he'll tip the balance in the orders way.

However those that say its cause he can "one-shot" or dominate are going to far the other way. This is optimal 3.5 thinking... This is Giants story and its been shown that Melee characters are closer to Casters than is considered "normal" in the theorists eyes.
'Eck to paraphrase the giant he said, "If you're expecting perfect DnD tactics, go somewhere else".

~ ~ ~

As for why he doesn't have a staff? Who knows. there's no evidence. Personally just think its an art choice.

[teratorn]

V did find a staff but it was lime green and didn't agree with V's robe. Probably as good a reason as any advanced in this thread that is rapidly becoming a discussion on how wizards are overpowered in D&D.

[Byzantine2]

I think the main reason is because every single member of The OOTS is so unoptimized and lacking so much in equipment it is laughable, and is part of the reason they are having such trouble with beating Xykon in the first place. Give V the staff then you have other people thinking why doesn't X have y? And down it goes into the party actually becoming efficient, and ruining the story in the process.

[Dr.Epic]

Maybe V should start attending more staff meeting to get one.:smallwink:

And you know where Xykon keeps his armies? In his sleeve-ies.:smallwink:

[SavageWombat]

Maybe it's just me, but I've found very few situations where a wizard would WANT to spend his treasure share on a staff under 3.5 rules. There's a couple of really high level ones, but the game designers have effectively re-built the rules for staves (twice if you count Paizo) to make them actually useful for a character.

So it's no problem for me to imagine he doesn't carry a staff even if optimized.

[jere7my]

I think this is starting to go off on a tangent. I see no fault with your argument above, but I don't see how it applies to snikrept's original claim that being named Windstaff would suggest that staffs in general are rare.

Fair enough.


Sure, a Greenhilt sword might be rare.
Sure, a Thundershield might be unusual.
Sure, a Windstaff might be unusual.

But does that by itself justify a claim that all swords, shields, or staffs rare? I think not.

I think what it tells us is that powerful or unusual magic items are notable. The sword with a green hilt stuck in people's minds enough to remember Roy's ancestor by that handle. A "windstaff" (whatever that is) must have been significant enough to get attached to Leeky's name. I don't know if there ever was a thundershield; more likely it signified "shield-bearer who's enthusiastic about Thor." But nonhumans, especially long-lived races, would have different naming conventions anyway.

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, being fair, carrying a staff or wand of a commonly used spell around just to save on the spell slots of having to prepare it is nice enough if you happen to find one laying around. It's just not usually worth the effort of making them unless it's either something you can't get enough of (healing) or it's something you want access to, but can't be bothered to prepare with your own spell slots. I've had a few Wands of Knock in my day - I always want access to Knock in case an irritating lock, but I rarely need it on a daily basis, so it's not worth an actual spell slot.

Also, if you're not using command words, magic items like that can be handy if you've been Silenced.

(Yes, by the way, I know V is nowhere near optimal. So much so that I would never have suggested V having used Sunburst if it weren't for the fact that I've already seen V do it, simply because that or Temporal Stasis would be the most effective core spell to have against a single undead target at 8th level. As mentioned before, with V knowing for certain fact there's an expectation Xykon might show up at any moment, it's not at all unreasonable to think V would even have it prepared today. Using it on Malack if/had the situation arisen would merely be a bonus.)

[factotum]

So much so that I would never have suggested V having used Sunburst if it weren't for the fact that I've already seen V do it

You saw Darth V do it. That means Sunburst could have been a spell one of his splices knew rather than one he did.

[Kish]

Durkon's name: Elemental term+martial item Durkon wields.
Durkon's first evil opposite's name: Elemental term+martial item Hilgya wore.
Durkon's second evil opposite's name: Elemental term+martial item Leeky wielded.
Speculating about some kind of powerful "windstaff" makes little sense. We saw Leeky's staff. It appeared to be a perfectly ordinary quarterstaff, and it was broken by Durkon's thunder.

[Copperdragon]

Why doesn't Vaarsuvius use a wizard's staff?

Why should he?

D&D does not require Wizards to wield a staff of any sort. There is nothing per se that gives a huge advantage if you do. A staff is just like any other magic item or weapon a character might wield, so it's a toss between "Do I want this staff or any of those other items?", and Vaarsuvius seems to have picked "Any of those other items".

Again, what's the big reason a Wizard has to go for a staff when it's not required by class and also does not offer such a huge advantage?
You could argue that Wands and Staffs would enhance Vaarsuvius Power Potential, but in the same way you could ask why Belar or Haley don't use Alchemists Fires or other items of that type on a regular basis. Or why Roy isn't fighting with Axe and Shield. He just picked a different setup/choice of items and that's the end of this story.

[zimmerwald1915]

You saw Darth V do it. That means Sunburst could have been a spell one of his splices knew rather than one he did.
I think the argument is more nuanced than "Vaarsuvius knows Sunburst because we've seen Vaarsuvius cast Sunburst," and makes a less demanding claim, precisely because it took place while she was spliced. From where I'm sitting, the argument looks something like this:

We have good reason to believe that Vaarsuvius was level 14 at the time of the splice. The Ancient Black Dragon, who was in a position to know, having watched and studied Vaarsuvius for an extended period of time, planned for her to expend her level 6 and level 7 spells before forcing a confrontation. She did not mention level 8 spells, and Vaarsuvius did not employ level 8 spells against her. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that Vaarsuvius did not have level 8 spell slots naturally, and thus would have no reason to learn level 8 spells.

This being the case, Sunburst was almost certainly a spell one of the splices knew. In fact, I think we can pretty safely say that it was Ganonron's spell, since Empowered Sunburst uses a level 10 slot and Jephton had mentioned that he had lost his Epic slots to Xykon's Energy Drain. However, it was also the only offensive spell Vaarsuvius used in her fight against Xykon that was visibly effective against him. Vaarsuvius would have remembered that.

Some time between escaping from Xykon and fighting Ganjii and Enor, Vaarsuvius leveled to 15, as evidenced by her casting a level 8 spell in that fight. At that point, she would have had access to level 8 spells for the first time, and indeed would have learned two automatically. Since V is an evoker, it would make a great deal of sense for one of those two spells to be an evocation spell, like Sunburst, so she can fill her level 8 specialist slot without having to resort to metamagic. At the same time, her leader is actively formulating strategies meant to be used against Xykon specifically. We know he and Durkon formulated the idea for the defensive Mass Death Ward spell while discussing anti-Xykon strategies. Even if Roy didn't have a similar conversation with Vaarsuvius (and it would be a severe oversight for Roy not to have a similar conversation with Vaarsuvius), that conversation between Roy and Durkon took place within Vaarsuvius' earshot and before Vaarsuvius started talking with Blackwing. It represents another little reminder that they will all need to pull their weight against Xykon when the time comes, and that Vaarsuvius should think, from time to time, about how she can contribute. Remember, this is before the fight with the courier and Buggy Lou's slavers, so Vaarsuvius is not thinking along the lines of "I shall limit myself to enhancement and support only" yet.

Given all this, it would not be at all surprising if Vaarsuvius knows Sunburst. The claim that Vaarsuvius must know Sunburst is a reach, but there are very good in-comic reasons for her to have learned it, and it should not provoke "deus ex machina" accusations if she uses it at some point.

[FlawedParadigm]

I think the argument is more nuanced than "Vaarsuvius knows Sunburst because we've seen Vaarsuvius cast Sunburst," and makes a less demanding claim, precisely because it took place while she was spliced. From where I'm sitting, the argument looks something like this:

We have good reason to believe that Vaarsuvius was level 14 at the time of the splice. The Ancient Black Dragon, who was in a position to know, having watched and studied Vaarsuvius for an extended period of time, planned for her to expend her level 6 and level 7 spells before forcing a confrontation. She did not mention level 8 spells, and Vaarsuvius did not employ level 8 spells against her. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that Vaarsuvius did not have level 8 spell slots naturally, and thus would have no reason to learn level 8 spells.

This being the case, Sunburst was almost certainly a spell one of the splices knew. In fact, I think we can pretty safely say that it was Ganonron's spell, since Empowered Sunburst uses a level 10 slot and Jephton had mentioned that he had lost his Epic slots to Xykon's Energy Drain. However, it was also the only offensive spell Vaarsuvius used in her fight against Xykon that was visibly effective against him. Vaarsuvius would have remembered that.

Some time between escaping from Xykon and fighting Ganjii and Enor, Vaarsuvius leveled to 15, as evidenced by her casting a level 8 spell in that fight. At that point, she would have had access to level 8 spells for the first time, and indeed would have learned two automatically. Since V is an evoker, it would make a great deal of sense for one of those two spells to be an evocation spell, like Sunburst, so she can fill her level 8 specialist slot without having to resort to metamagic. At the same time, her leader is actively formulating strategies meant to be used against Xykon specifically. We know he and Durkon formulated the idea for the defensive Mass Death Ward spell while discussing anti-Xykon strategies. Even if Roy didn't have a similar conversation with Vaarsuvius (and it would be a severe oversight for Roy not to have a similar conversation with Vaarsuvius), that conversation between Roy and Durkon took place within Vaarsuvius' earshot and before Vaarsuvius started talking with Blackwing. It represents another little reminder that they will all need to pull their weight against Xykon when the time comes, and that Vaarsuvius should think, from time to time, about how she can contribute. Remember, this is before the fight with the courier and Buggy Lou's slavers, so Vaarsuvius is not thinking along the lines of "I shall limit myself to enhancement and support only" yet.

Given all this, it would not be at all surprising if Vaarsuvius knows Sunburst. The claim that Vaarsuvius must know Sunburst is a reach, but there are very good in-comic reasons for her to have learned it, and it should not provoke "deus ex machina" accusations if she uses it at some point.

Precisely this. I was working with the idea that most people were thinking along these lines. Sunburst, like I said, is the single most effective anti-Xykon Evocation at that level and even in general is a good way to dole out mass blindness and a bit of damage if no undead happen to be around. Not to mention if V should ever be curious, it dispels non-9th/10th level darkness effects, and could theoretically reveal MitD early (although we as readers know better, there's no reason for V to know that.)

On a side note, picking 8th level spells with Conjuration and Necromancy both barred has to suck.

[snikrept]

Sure, a Greenhilt sword might be rare.
Sure, a Thundershield might be unusual.
Sure, a Windstaff might be unusual.

But does that by itself justify a claim that all swords, shields, or staffs rare? I think not.
We're talking about magical staffs, right? Not all staffs? Particularly magical staffs a wizard might use, and not, say, +1 quarterstaffs? Staffs with significant magical powers?

When you mention a comparison to "all swords," are you making sure to refer to the subset of swords with significant magical powers?

[zimmerwald1915]

We're talking about magical staffs, right? Not all staffs? Particularly magical staffs a wizard might use, and not, say, +1 quarterstaffs? Staffs with significant magical powers?

When you mention a comparison to "all swords," are you making sure to refer to the subset of swords with significant magical powers?
The "Thundershield" is actually the strongest counterargument to this. While the Greenhilt sword (post-reforging - we don't know whether it was magical beforehand) is a powerful magic item, and Leeky Windstaff's staff is probably a magic staff given that it resonated with magic, Durkon's shield has never shown any magical properties. It's an "heirloom," and thus associated with the family, but it's not anything special in and of itself.

[Pigkappa]

Staves are very costly items in D&D. In tabletop games, many players are reluctant to spend many resources on an item which will eventually run out of charges.

[Olinser]

Precisely this. I was working with the idea that most people were thinking along these lines. Sunburst, like I said, is the single most effective anti-Xykon Evocation at that level and even in general is a good way to dole out mass blindness and a bit of damage if no undead happen to be around. Not to mention if V should ever be curious, it dispels non-9th/10th level darkness effects, and could theoretically reveal MitD early (although we as readers know better, there's no reason for V to know that.)

On a side note, picking 8th level spells with Conjuration and Necromancy both barred has to suck.

Given V's apparent inability to land Dimensional Anchor, s/he may very well have taken Dimensional Lock as the second spell.

As hir's level up also came in the middle of hir 'supporting the party' phase, and they are gearing up to fight an Epic Lich, it is very possible that s/he took Protection from Spells as well.

[FlawedParadigm]

Given V's apparent inability to land Dimensional Anchor, s/he may very well have taken Dimensional Lock as the second spell.

As hir's level up also came in the middle of hir 'supporting the party' phase, and they are gearing up to fight an Epic Lich, it is very possible that s/he took Protection from Spells as well.

Well, V at 15th level gets two spells for free, so I'm sure at least one of them has a potential use on offence. I would not be surprised if the other were Iron Body, Dimensional Lock, or Protection from Spells. I figure the other has to be Temporal Stasis, Sunburst, or Polymorph Any Object.

Of course that's fairly optimal thinking within the confines of having the two best schools of that level barred. This being OotS, V might have just taken Telekinetic Sphere and Moment of Prescience and called it a day.

[Olinser]

Well, V at 15th level gets two spells for free, so I'm sure at least one of them has a potential use on offence. I would not be surprised if the other were Iron Body, Dimensional Lock, or Protection from Spells. I figure the other has to be Temporal Stasis, Sunburst, or Polymorph Any Object.

Of course that's fairly optimal thinking within the confines of having the two best schools of that level barred. This being OotS, V might have just taken Telekinetic Sphere and Moment of Prescience and called it a day.

One of them is Power Word - Stun

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html

The only question is what the other spell is - or whether V might have gotten more.

[Flickerdart]

This being the case, Sunburst was almost certainly a spell one of the splices knew. In fact, I think we can pretty safely say that it was Ganonron's spell, since Empowered Sunburst uses a level 10 slot and Jephton had mentioned that he had lost his Epic slots to Xykon's Energy Drain. However, it was also the only offensive spell Vaarsuvius used in her fight against Xykon that was visibly effective against him. Vaarsuvius would have remembered that.

An Epic spell slot and a 10+ level spell slot are not the same thing. While only an Epic caster can have 10+ level spells, Epic slots are specifically slots that can be used to cast Epic spells, which mere metamagicked 0-9th level spells are not.

[SaintRidley]

You saw Darth V do it. That means Sunburst could have been a spell one of his splices knew rather than one he did.

As an Empowered Sunburst, it certainly took one of Ganonron or Jephtron's spellslots. Whether V was able to use V's own spells in those spell slots as opposed to those of the corresponding splice is uncertain.

I'd say very probable though by no means certain that it was one of the Splice's spells.

I'd also say that, given its power and its special utility against Xykon, it's not unreasonable that V also decided to learn it when acquiring 8th level spells along with Power Word Stun.

[FlawedParadigm]

One of them is Power Word - Stun

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html

The only question is what the other spell is - or whether V might have gotten more.

Not on panel yet, anyhow. Depends how far ahead V thinks and when level 15 came. I know V was shopping for spell components shortly after they landed on the Western Continent. It's possible there was a purchase of a couple of off panel 8th level scrolls purchased for current/future copying. We really don't know much about the Order's finances - it's possible they're also rich enough for V to have bought scrolls for every spell s/he has access to, assuming they were available for sale (probably not, though.)

Don't think it'd be like that in any case, since there's probably at least a few of those spells Rich wouldn't want V having (Polymorph Any Object can make a surprising number of situations trivial.)

[FlawedParadigm]

As an Empowered Sunburst, it certainly took one of Ganonron or Jephtron's spellslots. Whether V was able to use V's own spells in those spell slots as opposed to those of the corresponding splice is uncertain.

I'd say very probable that it was one of the Splice's spells.

I'd also say that, given its power and its special utility against Xykon, it's not unreasonable that V also decided to learn it when acquiring 8th level spells along with Power Word Stun.

Yes, it could have been a splice spell at the time. My point is that, even if it was then, with us having confirmation that V has 8th level spells now, it would seem somewhat narratively silly for an Evocation specialist on a quest to kill a specific undead to not take Sunburst.

[SaintRidley]

Yes, it could have been a splice spell at the time. My point is that, even if it was then, with us having confirmation that V has 8th level spells now, it would seem somewhat narratively silly for an Evocation specialist on a quest to kill a specific undead to not take Sunburst.

That's kind of what I was getting at with the last sentence there.

[Olinser]

Yes, it could have been a splice spell at the time. My point is that, even if it was then, with us having confirmation that V has 8th level spells now, it would seem somewhat narratively silly for an Evocation specialist on a quest to kill a specific undead to not take Sunburst.

Yes - but you could also make the argument that it was silly from the start for Durkon to not take at least one Searing Light - and he has yet to cast that. Durkon had Speak with the Dead prepared instead, for crying out loud!

[SoC175]

The one thing all those people have in common is that they're the antagonists. There's never been an instance of any member of the Order being shown to have a dozen useful magical items on their person.Well, it's to be assumed that they have all the rank-and-file items that characters of their level are supposed to have and these are not mentioned as long as they just "silently fade into the total numbers on their character sheet" as opposed to having special flashy effects that are actively used.

E.g. in on of the bonus comics Belkar mentions in a sub-clause how he recently threw his last ring of protection +1 on the trash because he has better items by now.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes - but you could also make the argument that it was silly from the start for Durkon to not take at least one Searing Light - and he has yet to cast that. Durkon had Speak with the Dead prepared instead, for crying out loud!
Why would it be silly for Durkon not to pack Searing Light? Thor's Lightning will do more damage against any enemy except Xykon. Searing Light requires a successful touch attack to deal its damage, and I don't think Durkon has ever even attempted a ranged touch attack, preferring area of effect spells, melee touch attack spells, or buffs to his own martial melee.

Besides, you're talking about something different. Assuming both that Durkon and V had Searing Light and Sunburst on their spell lists, it would be equally silly for each not to prepare each spell. But we're not talking about preparing spells that are already on their lists of spells known. We're talking about adding new spells to that list. Durkon, if he does not prepare Searing Light one day, can prepare it the next, because it always is and will always be on his spell list. V if she does not learn Sunburst at some point can never prepare it ever, and will have forever closed out that option for herself.

[hamishspence]

V if she does not learn Sunburst at some point can never prepare it ever, and will have forever closed out that option for herself.

V's a wizard- finding a scroll of that spell and copying it into spellbook is all that's needed.

[zimmerwald1915]

V's a wizard- finding a scroll of that spell and copying it into spellbook is all that's needed.
Yes...that's my point. She needs to copy it into her spellbook somehow before she can prepare it. That's why comparing V having Sunburst to Durkon having Searing Light doesn't work, because Durkon doesn't have to learn Searing Light, whereas V has to learn Sunburst.

[FlawedParadigm]

V's a wizard- finding a scroll of that spell and copying it into spellbook is all that's needed.

That's the problem; whatever two spells you pick when you get a new spell level are the only ones you're guaranteed to get. So far, in the course of the story, the one and only time V has had access to a large library was back in Azure City, and we only know for certain that Power Word: Blind was obtained there (V's favour Roy obtained from Lord Shojo.) Now, it's entirely possible V spent a few days there or took some scrolls to be copied into the ol' spellbook on the road we were never told about, including ones V couldn't cast yet.

However, if it's not the case, we know that in Rich's world, high-level people are quite sparse. It's entirely possible scrolls for 8th and/or 9th level spells exist only in the personal libraries or spellbooks of whatever existing Wizards can use them - which, given where Dorukan currently is, may mean just V's master Aandarius. Assuming A's still alive, at that. Stores may not have access to them, or not carry them because there's so few buyers. Being a high level Wizard in a semi-low magic campaign has some downsides.

[Olinser]

Why would it be silly for Durkon not to pack Searing Light? Thor's Lightning will do more damage against any enemy except Xykon. Searing Light requires a successful touch attack to deal its damage, and I don't think Durkon has ever even attempted a ranged touch attack, preferring area of effect spells, melee touch attack spells, or buffs to his own martial melee.

Besides, you're talking about something different. Assuming both that Durkon and V had Searing Light and Sunburst on their spell lists, it would be equally silly for each not to prepare each spell. But we're not talking about preparing spells that are already on their lists of spells known. We're talking about adding new spells to that list. Durkon, if he does not prepare Searing Light one day, can prepare it the next, because it always is and will always be on his spell list. V if she does not learn Sunburst at some point can never prepare it ever, and will have forever closed out that option for herself.

Yes, Thor's Lightning is better than Searing Light against non-undead.... but that's not my point. The point is that Durkon prepared Speak with the Dead instead of either of them.

Durkon who can choose any spells never chooses undead-specific ones even when they know they're going to be fighting a Lich, so we expect V to pick one as one of hir only two spells?

[Stormlock]

On a side note, picking 8th level spells with Conjuration and Necromancy both barred has to suck.

I dunno, I think the nicest spells for that level are in abjuration and transmutation schools. Shadow Evocation is pretty nice as well. Prismatic Wall, Mind Blank, Shadow Evocation (though that's more useful for an illusionist or sorceror) and Temporal Stasis are all crazy good. And polymorph any object is.... yeah. Lets just say it needs some errata. Though I would find it highly entertaining if Xykon was finally defeated by being permanently polymorphed into an inanimate giant femur (And then a day later into a chamber pot via multiple castings.)

[FlawedParadigm]

I dunno, I think the nicest spells for that level are in abjuration and transmutation schools. Shadow Evocation is pretty nice as well. Prismatic Wall, Mind Blank, Shadow Evocation (though that's more useful for an illusionist or sorceror) and Temporal Stasis are all crazy good. And polymorph any object is.... yeah. Lets just say it needs some errata. Though I would find it highly entertaining if Xykon was finally defeated by being permanently polymorphed into an inanimate giant femur (And then a day later into a chamber pot via multiple castings.)

PAO is insane, yes. Honestly better than a lot of 9th level spells. But every Conjuration except Trap the Soul is potentially a game-changer at that level. Incendiary Cloud at Azure City might have been enough to save the city, if not the Gate. Same with both the summons. Maze has no save and can rid a party of quite a fair number of opponents for long enough to get out of their sensory input range, or to lay a Hell of an ambush if it lasts even 3-4 rounds with no other threats in the immediate area.

Clone is always useful to have active, Horrid Wilting deals untyped damage, which is awesome just for not being negative energy damage in that school, but untyped is phenomenal. Given how far V has taken Explosive Runes, Symbol of Death should make you quail in terror. Create Greater Undead has all the usual uses of minion-making spells.

Actually it's kind of Evocation that gets the short end of the stick here; Sunburst is kind of Mass Blindness with damage tacked on against non-undead. Polar Ray's real use is in Epic levels, Telekinetic Sphere has sharply limited usage unless you habitually fight around cliffs, lava, or otherwise in locations where moving an enemy around is of great value, and Greater Shout's damage is lackluster for the level unless you're regularly fighting things that resist all elemental damage. Clenched Fist is great for taking out other casters, but still fairly situational. Then again, Evocation is kind of a meh school anyhow.

[sims796]

Given all this, it would not be at all surprising if Vaarsuvius knows Sunburst. The claim that Vaarsuvius must know Sunburst is a reach, but there are very good in-comic reasons for her to have learned it, and it should not provoke "deus ex machina" accusations if she uses it at some point.

And honestly, this is one of the rare areas that there can be absolutely no cry of deus ex machina; after all, he doesn't need to say what spell V has at all times in his spellbook.

[Flickerdart]

Durkon who can choose any spells never chooses undead-specific ones even when they know they're going to be fighting a Lich, so we expect V to pick one as one of hir only two spells?
They know absolutely no such thing. Going into Draketooth's hideout, under the impression that they alone know its location and Xykon is on the other side of the world still playing the sewer level, it makes infinitely more sense to prepare an information-gathering spell rather than an anti-Xykon spell.

[FlawedParadigm]

They know absolutely no such thing. Going into Draketooth's hideout, under the impression that they alone know its location and Xykon is on the other side of the world still playing the sewer level, it makes infinitely more sense to prepare an information-gathering spell rather than an anti-Xykon spell.

Not so; shortly after Girard's illusion pointed out to the Order that the coordinates Soon had for the gate were false, Roy made mention of the fact that Xykon has Serini's diary and thus the true location. Further, they know Xykon has Greater Teleport for a certainty. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) They don't know for a certainty that Xykon has his bling back, but they have an oracular guarantee that Girard's gate is Xykon's next target, and that he has the coordinates and Greater Teleport. If they get to a still-standing Gate, then they know to expect Xykon at any moment. This is where Roy's prophecy pays off; Azure City was frankly doomed in any case, even if Roy had know at that time that it would be the actual next target. If not for the prophecy, if they came to Girard's Gate intact, they might have to panic that they picked the wrong Gate to protect. The prophecy assures them Xykon has to be here before Kraagor's.

I believe this is where the tension will arise, though - the Order does NOT yet know much about Kraagor's Gate, and Xykon does, and still has Greater Teleport. Even if the Order keeps this Gate away from Team Evil, they can pop right on over to Kraagor's - but we know from Azure City that the Ritual will take a few weeks to finish, so that's the Order's catch-up time. I rather expect this is the likely outcome.

[factotum]

They don't know for a certainty that Xykon has his bling back, but they have an oracular guarantee that Girard's gate is Xykon's next target, and that he has the coordinates and Greater Teleport. If they get to a still-standing Gate, then they know to expect Xykon at any moment.

However, they are also expecting to get some warning from Hinjo about Xykon's arrival, and they're probably expecting that warning to give them at least a day or so notice--nobody they know was present when Xykon threatened to teleport to the Gate two rounds after his phylactery was found, for instance, and the Resistance was nicely in place when they left for Sandsedge. The utter destruction of the Resistance has shortened timescales considerably, but they don't know that yet!

[FlawedParadigm]

However, they are also expecting to get some warning from Hinjo about Xykon's arrival, and they're probably expecting that warning to give them at least a day or so notice--nobody they know was present when Xykon threatened to teleport to the Gate two rounds after his phylactery was found, for instance, and the Resistance was nicely in place when they left for Sandsedge. The utter destruction of the Resistance has shortened timescales considerably, but they don't know that yet!

Well, they don't know Xykon intends to teleport in shortly, but they knew before they ever reached the Western continent that he *can*, so it's not unreasonable for them to have prepared for the concept that Xykon either would beat them there, or would arrive not long after them. Especially if Elan has taught them much about drama. ;)

As I said, once they find the Gate, if it's still intact and they don't see any evidence of tampering, they know Xykon hasn't been in yet, and that he will be there before Kraagor's - and they DO know he's coming; remember Durkon was willing to blow XP to summon Devas even if they'd just be a speed bump for Xykon.

[Cavenskull]

They know absolutely no such thing. Going into Draketooth's hideout, under the impression that they alone know its location and Xykon is on the other side of the world still playing the sewer level, it makes infinitely more sense to prepare an information-gathering spell rather than an anti-Xykon spell.
So then why did Durkon have spells like Turn Undead and Mass Death Ward prepared? They don't seem all that useful for information gathering. And as evidenced by some of the other spells Durkon either cast or mentioned, he was definitely prepared for combat.

[SaintRidley]

So then why did Durkon have spells like Turn Undead and Mass Death Ward prepared? They don't seem all that useful for information gathering. And as evidenced by some of the other spells Durkon either cast or mentioned, he was definitely prepared for combat.

Turn Undead's not a spell. It's a class ability.

[Psyren]

Haven't you guys read Origin? V is not very good at magic items and the crafting thereof. The fact that Malack and Leeky are running around with custom Staves of Houserule doesn't mean that V is capable of or even inclined towards the same.


It's not that "people think" it's abnormal. It is abnormal, because the system requires magic items to function as intended, and is very explicit about the fact.

Yes, but beyond your bog-standard +X weapon and +Y attribute clothing item to keep up with the monster manual, most other things (including spell-trigger/spell-completion items) fall under the DM's purview, particularly should the players be unable or unwilling to craft said items themselves.

[Cavenskull]

Turn Undead's not a spell. It's a class ability.
Oops, I spaced that. Well, the rest of it still applies at least.

[The Giant]

Because there's absolutely no narrative purpose for it other than to satisfy people who want the characters to more accurately reflect common D&D player strategies, and I am actively seeking to disappoint such people so they stop expecting that. Basically, the fact that "every decent player" does something has become a reason for me to NOT do it now, just to try to get people to stop asking.

Given that I've never listed what spells V has, what possible difference would it make for him/her to cast some of them from memory and some of them from a staff, other than making more work for me to have to explain to the readers, "This spell came from the staff!"?

Also, because it would be a pain in the ass to have to keep track of one more large equipment object in every panel V appears in. Is he/she holding it? Where did he/she leave it? Which hand was he/she holding it in last panel? Malack's staff has turned into an annoyance in that regard, hence the reason he put it down right before the fight began. I'm not about to make things harder for myself for no benefit.

[Flickerdart]

So then why did Durkon have spells like Turn Undead and Mass Death Ward prepared? They don't seem all that useful for information gathering. And as evidenced by some of the other spells Durkon either cast or mentioned, he was definitely prepared for combat.
Death Ward is useful against far more than undead - it shuts down some of game's nastiest effects. If Durkon hadn't prepared any Death Wards at all, that'd be incredibly foolish of him. Likewise, it would have been folly not to prepare combat spells, but judging by how quickly he ran out, he obviously didn't prepare many.

[sims796]

I wish the Giant didn't post; it was fun looking at these reasons as to why he wouldn't.

[rodneyAnonymous]

It's an actual answer, though.

[sims796]

It's an actual answer, though.

Yeah, those are always welcome. Still, I wish it was something like "V has a vicious allergy to hickory wood, or whatever staffs are made of" joke answer.

Knowing this site at times, a definitive "this is why" is always a good thing, of course, no complaints from me.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think a joke answer would also have put an end to the speculation.

[Lkctgo]

So then why did Durkon have spells like Turn Undead and Mass Death Ward prepared? They don't seem all that useful for information gathering. And as evidenced by some of the other spells Durkon either cast or mentioned, he was definitely prepared for combat.

I think it was preparation in case Xykon happened to arrive, remember that all antagonists arrive at the speed of Plot, and with Elan on his team, he would be well-versed in such bardic conventions. But on a serious note, he prepared most of his combat spells to be Undead-Facing Powers, Death Ward and the aid friends/destroy undead Heal Spell etc. Or spells to clear out hordes of lesser hobgoblins, like Thor's Might. It just happened to also be effective against Malack, as Malack was also undead. Remember that he didn't know Malack was an undead enemy, so most of the spells were not meant to be used on anyone but Xykon. Also, he's a cleric, turn undead is a class feature, not a spell, he has it "prepared" everyday.

[Themrys]

:vaarsuvius: Is reshaping the laws of physics with naught but my incredible intellect not enough for you plebiscites? Do you also require me to lug around a phallic symbol to pointlessly supplement my ultimate arcane power? Perhaps I should also carry a bow, in case scorching my enemy to cinders with my bare hands is not sufficiently entertaining for you.

This.
OotS is a story, and as such, the characters rightly have their own reasons for doing or not doing certains things, independently from what "every sensible player" would do if the comic were a game of D&D.