3.5 - Optimising a TWF Crit machine build

[cogminded]

Ok so long time lurker first time poster, and i am a fairly new RPer playing in my first D&D capmaign (I have played shadowrun and various white wolf systems before)

I am currently playing in an Eberron campaign based around warforged. While the DM has said that he doesn't require us to be warforged whatever character we play needs to be able to justify some connection to them.

My current character is a warforged artificer and while I am having a blast with him I like playing around with building characters and figured that a fun character would be a two weapon warforged scout focused on maximising my crit range (yes, I know that when you get to higher levels you run into more enemies immune to crits, part of why I wanna ask for help here)

So, obviously this is a very feat heavy build, which is why initially I was looking at starting out as a fighter and then moving on to kensai (for the increased crit range and multiplier), but then I have seen a lot of comments about how warblade can do it so much better, which I am unsure on since I need so many feats (TWF, IMPTWF, IMPCrit, Lightning Maces) and it just seems it would be more difficult

So yeah, long story short I would like some help from the esteemed minds of the people here. I know that playing it as a warforged scout isnt optimal optimal but I would like help planning out how to build it and the necessary feats to make it powerful without running into that pesky NI loop with lightning maces and snap kick

[Muktidata]

Warforged are a good race for just about any class. Where you get that they're not good Scouts from - I have no idea. One thing I will point out that's not good is that precision damage (such as Scout's skirmish damage) does not multiply on a critical hit.

Now, extra dice is certainly a boon to the TWF style. Don't get me wrong. But for a build that is fishing for crits, you'd likely rather have static weapon damage increases (strength, power attack, knowledge devotion, blood in the water stance, etc).

Kukris and Kaorti Resin are your friends.

[cogminded]

Apologies, I should specify that I was meaning the warforged scout race (from MM3 i think?), not a warforged using the scout class

[Artillery]

Ok so long time lurker first time poster, and i am a fairly new RPer playing in my first D&D capmaign (I have played shadowrun and various white wolf systems before)

I am currently playing in an Eberron campaign based around warforged. While the DM has said that he doesn't require us to be warforged whatever character we play needs to be able to justify some connection to them.

My current character is a warforged artificer and while I am having a blast with him I like playing around with building characters and figured that a fun character would be a two weapon warforged scout focused on maximising my crit range (yes, I know that when you get to higher levels you run into more enemies immune to crits, part of why I wanna ask for help here)

So, obviously this is a very feat heavy build, which is why initially I was looking at starting out as a fighter and then moving on to kensai (for the increased crit range and multiplier), but then I have seen a lot of comments about how warblade can do it so much better, which I am unsure on since I need so many feats (TWF, IMPTWF, IMPCrit, Lightning Maces) and it just seems it would be more difficult

So yeah, long story short I would like some help from the esteemed minds of the people here. I know that playing it as a warforged scout isnt optimal optimal but I would like help planning out how to build it and the necessary feats to make it powerful without running into that pesky NI loop with lightning maces and snap kick

If you are TWF I will assume you will be using Kukris. The +1 Keen Aptitude Kukri, possibly made of Kaorti resin for x4 crit, are used with Lightning Mace to get an extra attack when ever you threaten a crit. With TWF you will want to have another source of dmg to go with it, such as sneak attack; the feat Craven is a good source of extra SA dmg that scales. The Tome of Battle class that is best for TWF is the Swordsage.

Ranger 2/ Swordsage 4/Blood Claw Master 2/ Fighter

Blood Claw Master 2 removes the -2 penalty to TWF if using Bloodclaw weapons, such as Kukris.

At lvl 9 you will have a BAB of +7/+2. When you do a full attack with Kukri you do it at +7/+7/+2/+2. Penalty Free TWF.

You will also have Maneuvers like Sudden Leap to move toward people as a Swift action so you can still full attack them. Also when in a Tiger Claw stance you gain either +1 dodge AC or +10ft untype move speed increase.

At lvl 12, when you would get Lightning Mace, you will be able to afford 2 +1 Keen Aptitude Kukris. On 25% of you attacks you will get a free attack. Advancing Swordsage further, and possibly Bloodclaw Master 3 so even when not full-attacking you get a single attack with both weapons. Higher level Tigerclaw boosts are great for TWF and just in general.

[cogminded]

I've seen people mention kaorti resin before but I cannot find it in any of the books, where abouts is it?

[Ravens_cry]

Here's some web info (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a).

[cogminded]

hmm, not bad not bad

but then, wouldn't vorpal be better? (IIRC that vorpal is the one that means crit=dead)

[Ceaon]

hmm, not bad not bad

but then, wouldn't vorpal be better? (IIRC that vorpal is the one that means crit=dead)


Vorpal
This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)

Vorpal doesn't care about threat range. It triggers only on a natural 20.

[Artillery]

hmm, not bad not bad

but then, wouldn't vorpal be better? (IIRC that vorpal is the one that means crit=dead)

Vorpal is a +5 though, Kaorti Resin is a material. Though you need to find a Kaorti Weaponsmith to make your item. There is not a listed price either. Vorpal isn't that good frankly, for a flat 30k GP you can get Prismatic Burst on your weapon, from Magic Item Compendium. On a critical hit the target is subject Prismatic Spray. That is far better for a crit fishing build.

[Gwendol]

I would recommend a daring outlaw build, to stack sneak attack and insightful strike damage on top of the crits.

[cogminded]

Aaaah I understand now

So I'm thinking - aptitude serrated kaorti kukris, with improved critical and kensai up to when i get the ki critical.

By my maths that gives me 13-20/x5 right?

[Andreaz]

Yes, but it's a cheesy interpretation. For serrated and improved crit/keen to stack you'd have to count Serrated as a new weapon rather than a property for more crit range. And aptitude for lighning mace is cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese XD
I'd much rather streamline the TWF line into one or two feats and use them normally at 15-20/x2

[cogminded]

By my reading, serrated weapons count as different types of weapons not just augmentations

yes, its cheese, but then I dont even know if my DM will allow it :P

[Artillery]

Aaaah I understand now

So I'm thinking - aptitude serrated kaorti kukris, with improved critical and kensai up to when i get the ki critical.

By my maths that gives me 13-20/x5 right?

Too bad you aren't evil. Then you could look into the Prestige class Disciple of Dispater. 8 levels of it gives you 3x crit range that stacks with Improved Critical. Because of D&D math you get 4x crit range or 5-20 crit range. However it also take 3 feats not related to TWF, it very good for THF though. Its from Book of Vile Darkness.

I feel a strong urge to do a build for an Evil Frenzied Berserker/Disciple of Dispater that just obliterates rooms of people regardless of which side they are on. Using a Laminated Steel Serrated Falcion and ubercharging.

[ddude987]

apptitude for lightning mace isn't cheese... when I did a crit fishing build I ran TWF rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw. dual wield rapiers with apptitude and keen and they were made of kotari resin. 15-20/x4 with lightning mace. I did the math out for lightning mace. With 5 attacks (If I remember correctly) you only gain an extra 2 attacks. It isn't actually that cheesy.

[cogminded]

Too bad you aren't evil. Then you could look into the Prestige class Disciple of Dispater. 8 levels of it gives you 3x crit range that stacks with Improved Critical. Because of D&D math you get 4x crit range or 5-20 crit range. However it also take 3 feats not related to TWF, it very good for THF though. Its from Book of Vile Darkness.

I feel a strong urge to do a build for an Evil Frenzied Berserker/Disciple of Dispater that just obliterates rooms of people regardless of which side they are on. Using a Laminated Steel Serrated Falcion and ubercharging.

Do it and post it up, I might still steal it and build that instead because it would be funny xD

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Use a natural 18-20 weapon.
2. Take Improved Critical.
3. Take Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 7+.
4. 11-20 threat range, because you can apply the +2 threat range for 16-20 first, then Improved Crit doubles that five-number range to a ten-number range.

[cogminded]

1. Use a natural 18-20 weapon.
2. Take Improved Critical.
3. Take Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 7+.
4. 11-20 threat range, because you can apply the +2 threat range for 16-20 first, then Improved Crit doubles that five-number range to a ten-number range.

I know this might sound daft, but where does it say that you can apply that first? As my dm has said that you follow the usual rule of maths which requires you to multiply then add

[RFLS]

I know this might sound daft, but where does it say that you can apply that first? As my dm has said that you follow the usual rule of maths which requires you to multiply then add

In the general rules, where it states that you apply bonuses of any sort in the order that most benefits you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I know this might sound daft, but where does it say that you can apply that first? As my dm has said that you follow the usual rule of maths which requires you to multiply then add

You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, confirmed by the official FAQ.

Would a character with Spirited Charge first double his damage, and then add his Str bonus afterward? Of course not, you add all the bonuses first, then you apply the multipliers, because that gives you the greatest benefit.

[Snowbluff]

If you want to get munchkiny, all (or every copy I've seen) Oriental Adventures have Ninja-to listed as 19-29 crit. While you can't roll a 29 on a 20 sided die, doubling the whopping 10 crit range can lead to some sill shenanigans.


If I were you, I'd be less concerned with damage and more interested getting some status effects. Staggering Critical and Staggering Strike are good places to start. If you wanted damage, you'd use scimitars with power attack, and that's awfully intensive.

Bloodclaw Master is awful. The "no penalty for TWF" is a straight up lie, since you lose 2 BaB for finishing it. The total benefit is 1 attack. One.

I would suggest taking warblade over swordsage if you are going TWF, thanks to better BaB (Meet prereqs more quickly) and easier access to Eternal Blade (Get Time Stands Still faster).

[Phelix-Mu]

A note on Disciple of Dispater.... Unless the DM is going to lift all the role playing requirement (which would be extremely generous, and rob a lot of the fun from the class), then the role play element of BoVD would figure heavily in the campaign, since your character would essentially be a paragon of evil in the service of an Archduke of Hell. I do like the sound of a warforged devoted to the service of the Archduke of the Iron Tower, though, but I'm not sure the fluff is consistent. Ah, fluff....

In any case, the PrC as written calls for extreme evil, as the sacrifice of living sentient beings is a requirement for entry to the class (have to flag down the busy Archduke, after all). The benefits are pretty 3.0-level extreme, though; without trying, 9-20/x3 is very achievable, and I'm sure those with know-how can stretch this further.

If you do get a source of precision damage (like Assassin's Stance, an easy option for swordsage, but maybe less easy for warblade?), Telling Blow might be worth looking into. It's in the PHB2.

I will second the warblade with the intent of getting Time Stands Still. That maneuver can make for some funny damage output, and the warblade recharge mechanic is greatly superior to swordsage (which basically demands Adaptive Style feat tax).

Anyway, good luck. It's an interesting build.