TE vs TT?

[homeosapiens]

I think that Tarquin always comes prepared. What do i mean by that? He got 6 people team, which includes a arcane spellcaster Miron - this means that they all have some security measure items that can teleport them to one another and probably give a fast warning where they need to come.

If Xykon is to come for the gate any second now, he will not have easy task - he will face full about 20 lv Team Tarquin + vampire Durkon+ LG leftovers, and in the epickness of this confrontation the gate will go boom due to our heroes destroying it or sth.

Your thoughts on this?

[Kish]

My thought is that I would very much enjoy watching a...confrontation...between Xykon and Tarquin.

[angroy]

Hmm... I can see Tarquin and Redcloak getting on... or being sworn enemies. Very similar manipulative types. :smallbiggrin:
Personally, I think that if it came to a fight, Team Tarquin would take out Xykon and win, due to Tarquin producing some clever plan, item, technique or combination of the previous, but TT would most likely lose at least a few minor members, Redcloak would flee and Xykon would regenerate from his phylactery, pissed off but completely fine.
However, I then considered the Monster In The Darkness, who's the real wildcard. It depends on what he really can do before you can tell who'd win, as Xykon's just the type to realise he might not win this and release his pet's true power, probably while gloating evilly but disappointed that he didn't get to save it for the heroes.
So it could go both ways, because I think it's just as likely for the Monster to utterly destroy TT and force Tarquin and Nale to flee as it is for Tarquin to trick it into hindering Xykon. What can I say, it's a lovable but rather dim individual. :smallsmile:
Of course, consider how hilariously anticlimactic it would be for Elan's evil relatives and associated lackeys to die at the hands of the true villain of the story...

[NerdyKris]

which includes a arcane spellcaster Miron

Who's Miron? There's Malack, a cleric, and Zz'dtri, a level 15ish wizard.


Also, his "six person team" included his accountant. I wouldn't call that "prepared" in any way, shape, or form.

[Rig]

My thought is that I would very much enjoy watching a...confrontation...between Xykon and Tarquin.


I have heard of too much shipping. :smallfrown:

Also, Redcloak and Tarquin is the difference between evil and Evil. Tarquin's empire is a means to a end with a few handy justifications.

[JackRose]

Who's Miron? There's Malack, a cleric, and Zz'dtri, a level 15ish wizard.


Also, his "six person team" included his accountant. I wouldn't call that "prepared" in any way, shape, or form.

Miron is one of the members of Tarquin's old adventuring party, currently serving as advisor to the Weeping King (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), formerly working with Tarquin to manipulate Lord Tyrinar the Bloody. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html) I'm not sure we've seen it confirmed that he's an arcane caster, though that seems a fairly logical assumption.

[Kish]

Who's Miron? There's Malack, a cleric, and Zz'dtri, a level 15ish wizard.


Also, his "six person team" included his accountant. I wouldn't call that "prepared" in any way, shape, or form.
Pretty sure homeosapiens meant Tarquin's actual adventuring party, of which two members are in the Empire of Sweat and the Empire of Tears, not the Linear Guild. Zz'dtri is unlikely (...not guaranteed not to, but unlikely) to be more loyal to Tarquin than he is to Nale.

Miron is Miron Shewdanker. Formerly one of the puppeteers of Tyrinaria.

...And no, I don't mean shipping. I mean Xykon demonstrating to Tarquin the difference between the main villain and a third-stringer with delusions of grandeur.

[Rig]

Of course you weren't! It simply, regrettably, leapt to mind, and could easily be utterly hilarious. As for third-stringer? I'll take those odds.

[Obscure Blade]

Tarquin isn't a third stringer. On the other hand, Tarquin's biggest claim to fame is his cleverness and insight; he's a great manipulator, notoriously Genre Savvy, and is typically prepared for any foreseeable plot twist.

Xykon is a very dangerous enemy for him, especially under these circumstances. Suddenly coming out of the blue, there'll be no way for Tarquin to have some clever counter prepared. Xykon is also unlikely to listen to Tarquin enough to let him talk Xykon into anything.

I'd call Tarquin a first stringer, just an entirely different kind of villain than Xykon. In terms of tactics, it's diabolical mastermind versus the arcane version of a psychotic axe murderer. Tarquin has his clever plans, and Xykon will come in smashing at everything; it's someone who believes in subtlety, planning and clever manipulation, versus someone who worships brute force. In a situation where there isn't a lot of room for subtle manipulation and no time for much planning, which isn't good for Tarquin.

SOD spoilers:

I'm reminded of Xykon's speech to Dorukan about the virtues of brute force versus sophistication, as he pounded the wizard to death with one Energy Drain after another.


But see, I've learned a lot over the years since I died. A lot more than I learned during my life.

And now I see that planning doesn't matter. Strategy doesn't matter.

Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide.

Energy Drain!

In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed. For example, all I need to do is keep smacking you with Energy Drains, and soon you won't be able to cast any of your fancy spells at all.

Energy Drain!

Because yes, I am a sorcerer - and this magic is in my bones, not cribbed off of "Magic for Dummies." And I can keep casting the same friggin' spell at you until you roll over and die. You can have your finely-crafted watch - give me the sledgehammer to the face any day.

ENERGY DRAIN!

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm pretty sure Kish means third-stringer in the sense of main plot significance.

[JackRose]

I'm pretty sure Kish means third-stringer in the sense of main plot significance.

Well, second stringer, surely? He's the main villain of the current primary subplot, making him the first knot on the second string, I would think.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, second stringer, surely? He's the main villain of the current primary subplot, making him the first knot on the second string, I would think.

I think you've put more thought into this analogy than the person who originally made it.

[Kish]

Well, second stringer, surely?

Nah, he showed up too late in the overall story for that. The Linear Guild are the second-stringers. The IFCC and Tarquin are third-stringers. No comment on relative power levels implied except insofar as plot significance is power in OotS.

[JackRose]

Nah, he showed up too late in the overall story for that. The Linear Guild are the second-stringers. The IFCC and Tarquin are third-stringers. No comment on relative power levels implied except insofar as plot significance is power in OotS.

True, I hadn't considered the Linear Guild as a recurring antagonist party, which does serve to bump them up to second stringers. Although Tarquin's third string has become entangled with the Linear Guild's second string, so the point is largely academic until we see in what manner they separate after this plot arc.

[Mike Havran]

I would like to see it. Because I would like to see Xykon getting hammered into a heap of dry bonemeal, then being sprinkled on a pizza and eaten by celebrating Tarquin's team. Redcloak would recall away and feed his pet digester with the phylactery.

[Rig]

An enraged serious Xykon licking his wounds to form a party of his own? Yes please and thank you.

[homeosapiens]

I was more about the fight itself and relative chances, not about who is 1st or 2nd stringer. Nvm. Thought i think killing Durkon gives TT some importance.

I think they have fighter, barbarian, wizard/sorcerer(Miron - via cold feet page), rouge(weresomething girl) + ion stone girl(probably arcane spellcaster too) + 2 vampire clerics + zzdtri+ nale. That seems formidable force against Xykon with Tarquin mind to employ it.

This doesnt mean i thnik Xykon will lose. RC can heal him up preety fast and i believe it's gonna be a brilliant and tought fight. Somewhere along the way Belkar might die a hero death. That'd be funny.

But what of my main thought? Safe mechanism, teleport, warning system. It seems pretty consistent with Tarquin. All of this confrontation can happen only if those Team Tarquin guys get there. T+M+D with zzdtri and nale is a dead meat team(i think).

[Dr.Epic]

My thought is that I would very much enjoy watching a...confrontation...between Xykon and Tarquin.

What's Tarquin gonna do in a one-on-one fight against Xykon? As a lich, he's got crazy DR, and Tarquin isn't prepared for that. And as a group, Xykon still has Red Cloak, the MitD, and plenty of disposable minions to stall/occupy Tarquin's group.

[Bulldog Psion]

I believe that Xykon is going to serve the narrative function of "brutal but ignominious end of Tarquin". No epic songs, no record as one of the world's greatest tyrants -- just another mook speedbump erased by meteor swarm, and forgotten.

[Dr.Epic]

I believe that Xykon is going to serve the narrative function of "brutal but ignominious end of Tarquin". No epic songs, no record as one of the world's greatest tyrants -- just another mook speedbump erased by meteor swarm, and forgotten.

That's anti-climatic and lame.

Also, taken down by an epic lich...yeah, people won't think that was an epic showdown or anything.

[rodneyAnonymous]

[Xykon's] got crazy DR, and Tarquin isn't prepared for that.

Tarquin probably hits pretty hard when he's trying, and that greataxe (I know he lost it, but he may regain it or a similar replacement) was the most magic-looking weapon we've seen.

[Bulldog Psion]

Also, taken down by an epic lich...yeah, people won't think that was an epic showdown or anything.

Kind of like the fame of the six or seven Fyrons he killed in Cliffport, eh? :smallwink:

[pearl jam]

Tarquin and his team are powerful and their years of experience help them to deal with shifting circumstances without losing their composure, but the threat of Xykon and Redcloak together is too powerful, in my opinion, for them to overcome without time to prepare specifically for that threat, and quite possibly too powerful even with time.

[bguy]

I believe that Xykon is going to serve the narrative function of "brutal but ignominious end of Tarquin". No epic songs, no record as one of the world's greatest tyrants -- just another mook speedbump erased by meteor swarm, and forgotten.

If Tarquin gets an advance briefing from Durkon on Xykon's known capabilities (which would probably have to happen for him to think the situation serious enough to call in his entire team) then he has an excellent chance of defeating Xykon.

A simple Resist Energy: Fire spell would largely render Tarquin immune to meteor swarm. (And if Tarquin has his whole team assembled then he has potentially at least 6 casters that could churn out Resist Energies, so it won't exactly be difficult to get another one if Xykon dispells the effect.)

Likewise with Durkon's Mass Death Ward spell, Team Tarquin would be immune to Xykon's Energy Draining and most of Redcloak's offensive magic. Tarquin is certainly crafty enough to spread his people out, so Xykon can't just area dispel all their death wards at once. And if dispels any individual member's Death Ward, Malack and Durkon (both of whom are immune to Energy Drain) can just spam regular Death Wards.

As for Xykon's damage resistance, again if Tarquin gets any prep time at all then all he has to do is get a hold of a magic bludgeoning weapon. With the resources of 3 Empires to draw upon that is a trivial task for him.

Nor are Redcloak and the MITD likely to turn things around that much for Team Evil. Redcloak is powerful but fragile as he has almost no melee defense. (Remember how easy O'Chul took him down.) With multiple high level characters on the field against him, some one will get into melee range with him at which point he'll be driven from the field.

MITD is obviously a great melee threat, but even if he can be induced to enter the fight, he probably has a very poor Will Save. Forget the rest of Team Tarquin, it's entirely possible that Qarr alone could best the Monster through the use of his Charm Monster ability.

Thus if Tarquin gets his whole team assembled he has excellent odds of defeating Xykon. (Heck, leaving out the rest of his team and just going in with Malack, Durkon, and the Linear Guild, I would still give him even odds.)

[Silverionmox]

It's far from a given that Durkon will be able to keep getting spells from Thor.

The main obstacle is this: why would they even ask Dark Durkon to spill the beans on Xykon? They don't know how dangerous he is, they don't know he's coming, and presumably Nale will be dealing with him on a non-lethal basis. So what's the rush?

[Mike Havran]

It's far from a given that Durkon will be able to keep getting spells from Thor.

The main obstacle is this: why would they even ask Dark Durkon to spill the beans on Xykon? They don't know how dangerous he is, they don't know he's coming, and presumable Nale will be dealing with him on a non-lethal basis. So what's the rush?

The first thing Tarquin should do after meeting with Durkula is questioning: why is the Order here in such a hurry, who do they fight against, how strong they are etc. But Malack may stop it, since it's rude to his new Brother.

[pearl jam]

Mass Death Ward might protect them from energy drains and the like, but it doesn't protect them from Meteor Swarms, Disintegrate, Bouncy Balls of Insanity or any number of other ways Xykon and Redcloak might try to destroy them. Durkon could Smite Evil in life, though even then I suspect not with the same effect as Soon, but in undeath he no longer can, so I'm not sure Team Tarquin can hope to have as much success against Xykon and Redcloak.

[Kish]

Durkon could Smite Evil in life,
Huh? Durkon was never a paladin.

[Silverionmox]

The first thing Tarquin should do after meeting with Durkula is questioning: why is the Order here in such a hurry, who do they fight against, how strong they are etc. But Malack may stop it, since it's rude to his new Brother.
The Order is not in a particular hurry, they spent quite a while in Bleedingham and were just eager to get on with their quest ASA they knew where to go. They fight against the Linears. Xykon is just the guy Nale knows. There's no reason to ask more than the immediately useful information about the Order, most of which he knows anyway because he's seen them in action already. The rest of the information can be examined at leisure when the gate is under control, or back at the palace.

[Copperdragon]

Tarquin might play two important roles:
First, he might pose a challenge to Team Evil and force them into recognizing there are still "other threats" out there they have to deal with. So far, Xykon and Redcloak did not meet a real and lasting resistance on their plan.
They faced a couple of tight fights, for example against Darth Vaarsuvius, Lirian, Soon, the Silverdragon (Bonus Comics) but no faction that is able to compete with them over the gates. They overcame all the "isolated fights" with more or less relative ease (and that they lost against Soon is only rooted in them having been sloppy).
They might find that in Tarquin which forces them to adapt and maybe even scares them somewhat. He'll force Team Evil grow.

The second challenge Tarquin poses is to force to Order to work with him, even if they do not want him. They will need to find a way to make him do what they want and take his means to (an obvious plan from Tarquin) betray them sooner or later.

I think those two roles are Tarquin's actual role in this (and he does not have to die in this arc to fulfill those roles).

[Stormlock]

If anyone (who is still alive, RIP mommy dragon) has a chance of taking out Xykon in a not-plot-contrived fight, it's Tarquin and his old team. Even Tarquin would be incredibly useful- he's actually smart enough to do things like trip and grapple Xykon. Recall that last time Xykon got grappled he escaped by Meteor Swarming the hand to bits (which actually makes no sense since it should have had as many hp as V at full health, who survived that and then some) and Tarquin has way more hp, probably fire immunity, and multiple healers to back him up.

Moreover, Tarquin may actually be intelligent and knowledgeable enough to actually defeat Xykon for good rather than just smashing him and letting him pop back at his phylactery. I'm sure one of his friends has access to spells like Temporal Stasis, which could put Xykon away forever. Or if they get him to succumb to Control Undead he could destroy his own phylactery for them. Or get Redcloak to help them out.

[Bulldog Psion]

If Tarquin gets an advance briefing from Durkon on Xykon's known capabilities (which would probably have to happen for him to think the situation serious enough to call in his entire team) then he has an excellent chance of defeating Xykon.

Thus if Tarquin gets his whole team assembled he has excellent odds of defeating Xykon. (Heck, leaving out the rest of his team and just going in with Malack, Durkon, and the Linear Guild, I would still give him even odds.)

Do you really think that a bunch of level 17 or 18 people can defeat a lich deeply into the epic levels and his equally epic cleric henchman?

We have zero evidence that TT is epic. They're just better optimized and better geared than the Order of the Stick -- though that is also true of a crippled gerbil merchant. :smallwink:

[Zallera]

The question isn't whether Tarquin actually stands a chance if he can get Xykon into melee range, but whether he can get past the Mitd and whatever critters Redcloak summons and into melee range before Xykon and Redcloak take down his magical support. Malak and Z don't exactly have a ton of hit points and I doubt they would last more than a round or 2 against a serious Xykon and Redcloak.

[RickDaily12]

Huh? Durkon was never a paladin.

I believe he's talking about the spell Holy Smite.

But even as a living cleric, Durkon can only cast that once a day; it's only a domain spell. It's not even all that good, either- it's just a fourth level spell probably only hazardous to creatures specifically like Sabine, due to her being an evil outsider grappling it up with Elan at the time. So...


My take on a TT vs. TE runs like this:

Tarquin gets full of himself. Tomorrow, he gets Sabine returned to him, Kilkil is restored (if he even is useful), Durkon shows up on their side, and why hello there Malack. All spellcasters are restored, and this time, they don't even need the locative spells required to make it in this part of Windy Canyon. Well, things look pretty good here!

Oh, what's this? A coward who hides under an umbrella? A goblin cleric wearing a stupid cape as a co-lackey? Big deal. Maybe an undead lich is something to be a bit scared about, but T has two vampire clerics. Big deal.

Let's fight it out.

Redcloak immediately casts Control Undead. If he can grab Xykon, then he can easily do it to both Malack and Durkon, seeing as neither of them are remotely comparable in HD to an epic lich. Both vampire clerics are now on the side of TE. 7v3 now becomes 5v5. Equal numbers.

Everyone is probably clustered still among TT, so Xykon opens with Meteor Swarm. One for Tarquin, Nale, Sabine, and Kilkil. Those four, plus Zz'dtri, (and possibly the vampires just for fun) are caught in the explosive radii of each orb. Xykon, being an epic lich, probably breaks Zz'dtri's SR a couple of times. Tarquin might evade partially, but he'd be cooked a bit by the spell. Nale and Sabine both have Evasion, (maybe Improved as well, but hard to say) but four saves against Xykon's caster level is a bit of a stretch. Kilkil dies. His level and save mods just don't compare, and being a kobold, he doesn't have the hitpoints to survive 24d6 fire + 2d6 force damage.

I'm not going to say anything about the MiTD at this point.


That would be TE's first combat round. They might not necessarily be able to go before everybody in TT, but even then, those actions by Redcloak and Xykon as openers are devastating battle starters for sure. Everyone in TT would be quite hurt, (and in the kobold's case, dead), and all clerics are on the side of TE. Now no one can heal TT, 4/5 of TE's players are DR (three are undead), rendering Tarquin and Nale as quite useless. Three clerics against Sabine. Xykon against Zz'dtri. Probably Energy Drains ensue. Kilkil died. 4v5.

I can't see TT doing anything back that could pack even remotely so much of a wallop, and that is even WITH Tarquin's clever antics and strategies. Any battle TT would initiate against TE would be over before it starts.
Yeah. It's easy to predict the end of Tarquin with this thread.

Frankly, I'm enjoying these predictions. They're quite... satisfying. :smallamused:

[Mike Havran]

Do you really think that a bunch of level 17 or 18 people can defeat a lich deeply into the epic levels and his equally epic cleric henchman?

We have zero evidence that TT is epic. They're just better optimized and better geared than the Order of the Stick -- though that is also true of a crippled gerbil merchant. :smallwink:

Redcloak isn't Epic, he's level 17. So, about on par with a spellcaster from TT.

For that matter, do you really think that a bunch of level 14 or 15 unoptimized and undergeared people can defeat a lich deeply into the epic levels and his powerful cleric henchman? :smallwink: :smallwink:

[Tragak]

Actually, Redcloak explicitly said that he can't use Control Undead on Xykon, so he might not be able to control Malack, which would leave Malack free to keep Durkon under control.

[bguy]

Do you really think that a bunch of level 17 or 18 people can defeat a lich deeply into the epic levels and his equally epic cleric henchman?

We have zero evidence that TT is epic. They're just better optimized and better geared than the Order of the Stick -- though that is also true of a crippled gerbil merchant. :smallwink:

Epic is overrated in this circumstance. TT has potentially 11 actors (the original 6 members, Durkon, Nale, Sabine, Z, and Qarr) that can all take useful actions compared to TE only having at best 3 (and really only 2 since it is far from certain MITD would even be willing to help in a real fight or that his help would do any good.) TE isn't sufficiently more powerful than TT that they can make up for letting Tarquin's group get anywhere from 4-6 times as many actions each round as they get. They'll simply get overwhelmed.

Or look at it this way, how exactly does TE defeat TT? Xykon tends to rely on the same few spells over and over again, most of which will be ineffective against TT. His meteor swarms can effectively be rendered harmless by a 2nd level spell that more than half of TT should be able to cast. And as for energy drain, even if TT isn't buffed against it, it can only target one of his opponents with each casting. That's not going to get the job done when he is this badly outnumbered. His best bet is probably Mass Hold Person but those won't affect the undead or fiends, and the remainder of Tarquin's team appears to be predominantly spellcasters (and thus people with good will saves.) I would also be astonished if Tarquin himself doesn't have some sort of protection against mental compulsion given that it is a fighter's greatest vulnerability, and Tarquin is nothing if not well prepared. So what option does that leave Xykon with? He's not the most adaptable combatant when his big guns fizzle (see the fight against Soon), and he would be going into this fight with a big disadvantage since he doesn't even know Tarquin and company exist, while Tarquin potentially has access to everything Durkon knows about him. (Which thanks to O'Chul's briefing is quite a lot.)

Nor is Redcloak epic. He's pretty clearly only 17th level which is probably comparable to most of Tarquin's team. And as previously mentioned, Redcloak is really weak at melee. If catgirl gets into position to backstab him or either Tarquin, TT's other fighter, or either of the vampires get to melee with him he is pretty much hosed. (I certainly don't see Redcloak doing better at breaking a grapple than Durkon did for instance, so if nothing else Malack can simply stalemate him.) Redcloak probably won't be killed (since I'm sure he is smart enough to hold back a Word of Recall), but if he gets driven from the field then its everyone against Xykon at that point and in that circumstance Xykon loses.

[Byzantine2]

^ You can probably include the OOTS in that list of potential actors. I think Roy wouldn't be happy with it, but he would agree to help them if it means a good chance of taking down Xykon once and for all. And if TT have enough extra equipment we might actually see the OOTS with decent stuff for once :P.

Heck, this sounds like it might be the one chance to take down Xykon once and for all without some plot-contrived device. Tarquin isn't going to be stupid enough to assume a Lich is dead without smashing the Phylactery himself.

The real question is what would Redcloak do, given that he has the Phylactery and would break it in an instant if he knew Xykon was no longer useful, though I expect his first action in such a fight would be to flee, he doesn't do melee.

[Bulldog Psion]

However, it would make a very unsatisfying story if Xykon were killed by an NPC who was totally unknown through 95% of the comic, so I very, very seriously doubt it's going to shake out that way.

I mean, what kind of story is it where the heroes end up winning only because they tag along with a tough NPC who shows up, dusts the major villain, then rides off smirking into the sunset while the people whose tale we've been following for most of the comic stand there with slack jaws, saying "Golly gee, I'd like to be just like Mr. Tarquin when I grow up"?

It would be a lousy story. We know that Mr. Burlew writes excellent stories, so therefore, this scenario with Tarquin killing Xykon will NOT occur.

The Order deserves the victory. Not an obnoxiously smug NPC who showed up only recently. Therefore, they will get the victory.

And something has to be done to tie up the Tarquin story, too. I doubt Mr. Burlew is going to write an extra book of "Elan goes back and zaps his dad" after the main plot resolves, so it's logical that Tarquin bites it here. And if he's going to die, then who better than the incoming epic-level lich? :smallconfused:

We already know he can take the whole Order on himself, so they're not likely to kill him. But it seems somehow fitting to have Tarquin roasted in a few seconds by Xykon, while the lich makes snide comments about

"Another little loser who thinks he's the main antagonist because he's got a fancy palace and a couple of armies. You know something, pal? You call yourself a villain but I look at you and all I see is 'amateur'. You're still at the stage where you're whining about how unfair the alignment system is and how you've just got a 'different point of view' and 'you're doing it all for the common good', aren't you? Well, you're not a real antagonist until you've embraced your evil, wallowed in it, filled every bone with it. And now, take that lesson with you down to Hell." ZAP

[Mike Havran]

And something has to be done to tie up the Tarquin story, too. I doubt Mr. Burlew is going to write an extra book of "Elan goes back and zaps his dad" after the main plot resolves, so it's logical that Tarquin bites it here. And if he's going to die, then who better than the incoming epic-level lich? :smallconfused:

Uh, maybe Elan? It would certainly feel very dissatisfying if Elan didn't get his moment of glory for the victory.

I mean, if Tarquin killing Xykon is lousy, because that's Roy's thing to do, then Xykon killing Tarquin is pretty lousy too, because what kind of a lame ass heroes are they when they need to count on the main villain in order to deal with "an NPC who was totally unknown through 95% of the comic."

And I do hope that Elan and Haley get an extra book after the main plot resolves.

[Obscure Blade]

Let's fight it out.

Redcloak immediately casts Control Undead. If he can grab Xykon, then he can easily do it to both Malack and Durkon, seeing as neither of them are remotely comparable in HD to an epic lich. Both vampire clerics are now on the side of TE. 7v3 now becomes 5v5. Equal numbers.Well...

That seems unlikely to me. Redcloak's not going to know that they are undead - the Order didn't figure out that Malack was a vampire even after spending a significant time up close in conversation with him.

[MaximKat]

This is basically a Batman vs Superman kind of fight...

[Bulldog Psion]

Uh, maybe Elan? It would certainly feel very dissatisfying if Elan didn't get his moment of glory for the victory.

Well, I disagree. Because Tarquin is expecting Elan to take him down. Whereas a bolt from the blue in the form of Xykon is precisely the kind of superbly ironic death that would make a good story.


That seems unlikely to me. Redcloak's not going to know that they are undead - the Order didn't figure out that Malack was a vampire even after spending a significant time up close in conversation with him.

Well, the Order is "situational awareness challenged", to put it mildly. :smallwink: I think Redcloak is quite a bit more perceptive and alert.

[Mike Havran]

Well, I disagree. Because Tarquin is expecting Elan to take him down. Whereas a bolt from the blue in the form of Xykon is precisely the kind of superbly ironic death that would make a good story.


I would take "PC defeats a bad guy even though he expects it" over "bad guy gets his plan crossed by another bad guy while the PC looks". Let's see what the Giant's plan will be.

[Zallera]

That seems unlikely to me. Redcloak's not going to know that they are undead - the Order didn't figure out that Malack was a vampire even after spending a significant time up close in conversation with him.

Malak does have the benefit of being an Albino Lizard-whatever, so his pale complexion doesn't immediately scream VAMPIRE!, plus his immunity to daylight spell lets him walk around during the day which vampires normally cannot do. Not to mention he could also just pass as a lizard folk who has some white dragon blood in him.

Durkon is another story, while Xykon will probably just blast away with a meteor swarm, Redcloak is at least smart enough to realize that something is up with the pale dwarf sporting a pair of fangs.

[bguy]

However, it would make a very unsatisfying story if Xykon were killed by an NPC who was totally unknown through 95% of the comic, so I very, very seriously doubt it's going to shake out that way.

True, though as a practical matter it would be fairly difficult for Tarquin to put Xykon down for good. As already mentioned, Redcloak is bound to Word of Recall away if he is on the verge of being killed, and as long as Redcloak gets away TE can't be destroyed, so Tarquin basically just wins by ring out rather than knock out. (Though if Xykon's body gets destroyed in the battle, and he ends up regenerating anywhere other than the Astral Plan that is going to make things rather... difficult between him and Redcloak.)

Also, my analysis was if Tarquin went full alpha strike and called in his entire team. As such it is more just a thought exercise than anything else since we don't have any real indication that Tarquin plans to call in his buddies. If Tarquin instead just relies on the Linear Guild he has formed, it is bound to be a much closer fight. Nale, Sabine, Z, and Kilkil will all probably be early casualties in such a fight, so it really comes down to whether Tarquin and the vampires can defeat Xykon and Redcloak. (If they buff pre-fight they might be able to pull it off, but only if the MITD stays out of the fight.) More likely they will need to ally with the Order to have any real chance of winning.

[Raineh Daze]

For reference, what is the largest group of non-mook level combatants (Soon being the only one in the group that really threatened Xykon) that TE has fought? I think that goes all the way back to the last time Xykon was exploded.

It'd make a nice reminder if it was indicated again that he is not invulnerable just by dint of outlevelling everyone else and being a lich. Also, proof that teamwork can work against them. And hey, defeat doesn't equal death.

TT probably only needs a cleric left over to recover their losses from all this, besides. :smallbiggrin:

[pearl jam]

Huh? Durkon was never a paladin.

Oops. You are, of course, correct. He could Turn Undead. Originally I was going to say that no one on Team Tarquin could smite Evil, but I, incorrectly, remembered Durkon and thought that a cleric could do that.

[Necris Omega]

Hrm... Malack's been calculated at level 35. Most of those levels are due a combination of the templating and racial adjustment, but... If those were pure cleric levels, he'd probably be able to tell Xykon to sit down and shut up in some form or another.

While I do doubt that the rest of Tarquin's Team would be at that point without their own such exotic adjustments, we're talking what is quite possibly the most powerful team of evil adventurers in the world. They have at least an entire generation over the Linear Guild and Order of the Stick - Even alone (minus Malack) and saddled with comparative amateurs and his accountant, Tarquin views the Order NOT as a threat, but as a fun distraction.

In the end, if the Order of the Stick have any hope of beating Xykon, then Tarquin's Team, armed with far more experience, far better equipment, oh, and multiple EMPIRES of resources to draw on... Xykon'd be fighting a very uphill battle.

[homeosapiens]

I made a long thread :P.


I think if it came down to 11 vs TE, Xykon will survive anyway due to RC, but the fight itself would be uberepic. 9lv spells going all around - we didnt see that yet. Also Xykon not to lose easyly or to draw somehow would need to show us something new. How could that not be fun?

Also why 17-18?

I believe 19-20. Because malack is 11+ vampire. We know that. And thats ecl 19+, other races/templates not counting. Tarquin might be 1 level above others. Rest should be approx same ecl.

[Stormlock]

Malack is at least 13. Control Weather is a level 7 spell, and control winds isn't on the cleric spell list except as an air domain spell. Adding in vampire LA and the modest assumption that he's just a legless lizardfolk instead of something nastier puts his ECL at 24 minimum. We've little reason to suspect that He's overshadowing the rest of TT by 4 levels, or even any levels at all. And as I mentioned elsewhere, Tarquin has an epic ring of fast healing (rings of regeneration heal 1 hitpoint per hour, not enough to notice in combat) and Tarquin has a friggin' SPARE!

Also keep in mind Tarquin is comfortable with an old (or older, rather hard to tell) red dragon on the throne. Admittedly not the most terrifying paragon of dragonhood, but still enough to be a rather significant threat for a couple of sub level 20 guys. I doubt he'd risk that if he weren't strong enough to lay the smack down on her if she got out of hand.

[Mike Havran]

Malack is at least 13. Control Weather is a level 7 spell, and control winds isn't on the cleric spell list except as an air domain spell.

Also keep in mind Tarquin is comfortable with an old (or older, rather hard to tell) red dragon on the throne. Admittedly not the most terrifying paragon of dragonhood, but still enough to be a rather significant threat for a couple of sub level 20 guys. I doubt he'd risk that if he weren't strong enough to lay the smack down on her if she got out of hand.

Malack casted the Control Winds from the scroll, so that can't be used to estimate his level. There is evidence for him to have at least 12 spellcaster(Cleric) levels.

The Empress had Large size when she rose to the throne (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), for red dragons that means challenge rating 10, tops. Certainly no big danger for Tarquin.

[Raineh Daze]

The Empress had Large size when she rose to the throne (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), for red dragons that means challenge rating 10, tops. Certainly no big danger for Tarquin.

How can you tell that she's only Large size there? :smallconfusef

[hamishspence]

Possibly because she looks no larger relative to those fighting her, than this Young Adult Black Dragon does:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html

and Young Adult Black Dragons are Large.

[Mike Havran]

Possibly because she looks no larger relative to those fighting her, than this Young Adult Black Dragon does:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html

and Young Adult Black Dragons are Large.

Yup, that was exactly the reason :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

That said, Ancient Black Dragons are Gargantuan, and Mama Dragon isn't vastly bigger than Young Adult Dragon:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0626.html

so something intermediate between the two might be difficult to spot on first glance.

Still, I'm inclined to go with Large as most likely for the Empress at the start of her career.

[deworde]

The Order deserves the victory. Not an obnoxiously smug NPC who showed up only recently. Therefore, they will get the victory.
I'm one of Tarquin's biggest fans, but this. However, I can see Tarquin contributing to how we move onto the next gate.



And something has to be done to tie up the Tarquin story, too. I doubt Mr. Burlew is going to write an extra book of "Elan goes back and zaps his dad" after the main plot resolves, so it's logical that Tarquin bites it here. And if he's going to die, then who better than the incoming epic-level lich?
No, because that would demote Elan's plan, which I suspect is going to be a big moment for Elan.



We already know he can take the whole Order on himself, so they're not likely to kill him. But it seems somehow fitting to have Tarquin roasted in a few seconds by Xykon, while the lich makes snide comments about


Something like that happened in Start of Darkness. Repeating basically the same stuff would be worse than a Tarquin-based anticlimax.

[Kish]

The Empress can't cast spells yet. That suggests she was a Wyrmling when Nale fought Tarquin and is now Very Young; I don't know where the idea that she's Old or older comes from.

[hamishspence]

Red Wyrmlings are Medium though.

Considering the Very Young age category lasts 9 years- I wouldn't have too many problems with her starting as Very Young, and having gained Hit Dice, but not as many as a Young Red dragon would have.

[Raineh Daze]

So they basically have a child on the throne. That explains so very much. XD

[Copperdragon]

Yes. Imagine a ten year old child on the throne but the parent (Tarquin) tells it to feed because he wants it to get fat and unwieldy.

[Tragak]

Yes. Imagine a ten year old child on the throne but the parent (Tarquin) tells it to feed because he wants it to get fat and unwieldy. He would, wouldn't he? It didn't occur to me at all that he could've given her that idea on purpose. Kudos to you! :smallsmile:

[Mike Havran]

He would, wouldn't he? It didn't occur to me at all that he could've given her that idea on purpose. Kudos to you! :smallsmile:

I always thought he did, based on his comment here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), in panel two.

[Olinser]

Keep in mind that the whole fight may end in a draw.

Tarquin is definitely savvy enough to blow up the Gate and run if he starts losing, he pulled out against the OOTS ambush VERY quickly.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin pulls a Bear Run and tosses Nale's crew to Xykon (he doesn't have to run faster than the bear - he just has to run faster than YOU).

[Olinser]

The Empress can't cast spells yet. That suggests she was a Wyrmling when Nale fought Tarquin and is now Very Young; I don't know where the idea that she's Old or older comes from.

When Tarquin fought the Linear Guild, she also didn't seem to be doing a whole lot of damage to Thog, which was at least a year BEFORE the main plotline, when Thog was bested by a level 9-10 or so Roy.

[Shred-Bot]

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin pulls a Bear Run and tosses Nale's crew to Xykon (he doesn't have to run faster than the bear - he just has to run faster than YOU).

I could see Tarquin pulling a maneuver like that... he certainly would choose his own survival over Nale's.

And then Elan can perform the ballad of Tarquin the Coward in every tavern on the Western Continent, totally undermining the cool guy image T's been trying to set up for himself.

[Cuthalion]

and Xykon would regenerate from his phylactery, pissed off but completely fine.

Very pissed, considering Redcloak has it.

[FlawedParadigm]

Tarquin pulled out against the OOTS ambush VERY quickly.

If only he'd made a habit of pulling out quickly, we wouldn't have had Nale inflicted upon us.

[SaintRidley]

No, because that would demote Elan's plan, which I suspect is going to be a big moment for Elan.


Tarquin wants his death to occur in the schema of a Hero vs. Tyrant epic duel for the ages. Win or lose, if sticking to that schema, Tarquin wins. Elan's plan is going to have to be a way to get out of that schema. Getting him killed by a more important villain is certainly one way of doing so and shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

[TRH]

If only he'd made a habit of pulling out quickly, we wouldn't have had Nale inflicted upon us.

He and Elan are twins, so we wouldn't have had the latter either.

[Zweisteine]

I, too, have predicted that Team Evil and the Linear guild/Tarquin shall come into conflict. Unless there's a MacGuffin in the room with the gate, the Order will be forced to either withdraw or form a temporary alliance with Tarquin to defeat (or at least fend off) Xykon.

If you think about it, a gate falling into Tarquin's hands is not too bad. He does not have the ritual (which wouldn't help him anyway), and I somehow doubt that he and Xykon will form an alliance (unless Redcloak gets involved). The Order may be forced to let Tarquin have the gate, while they find a way to reorganize.

[Olinser]

I, too, have predicted that Team Evil and the Linear guild/Tarquin shall come into conflict. Unless there's a MacGuffin in the room with the gate, the Order will be forced to either withdraw or form a temporary alliance with Tarquin to defeat (or at least fend off) Xykon.

If you think about it, a gate falling into Tarquin's hands is not too bad. He does not have the ritual (which wouldn't help him anyway), and I somehow doubt that he and Xykon will form an alliance (unless Redcloak gets involved). The Order may be forced to let Tarquin have the gate, while they find a way to reorganize.

Why wouldn't the ritual help? He has access to at least TWO arcane casters in the form of Zz'dtri and his own team's caster (three if you count Nale being part sorcerer), and now TWO divine casters in Malack and Durkon.

If Redcloak casting the ritual gives control of the Snarl to the Dark One, the it is reasonable to think that Malack casting the ritual would give control to Nergal.

And of course the argument that the arcane part of the ritual takes control for the CASTER - and it isn't until the divine portion that control is transferred to somebody else (a deity).

[Byzantine2]

I, too, have predicted that Team Evil and the Linear guild/Tarquin shall come into conflict. Unless there's a MacGuffin in the room with the gate, the Order will be forced to either withdraw or form a temporary alliance with Tarquin to defeat (or at least fend off) Xykon.

If you think about it, a gate falling into Tarquin's hands is not too bad. He does not have the ritual (which wouldn't help him anyway), and I somehow doubt that he and Xykon will form an alliance (unless Redcloak gets involved). The Order may be forced to let Tarquin have the gate, while they find a way to reorganize.

Xykon enjoys being a hammer far too much for him to ally himself with someone like Tarquin. He only keeps Redcloak around for the same reason that Redcloak keeps him around, they need each other. Tarquin has no such luck. Though I don't see Xykon inglorious crushing Tarquin either, while the anti-climax is good it has been done, and Tarquin doesn't seem stupid enough to talk to Xykon directly. As soon as he realizes Nale lied and has no chance of negotiating he will either retreat to his palace or to The OOTS, who he probably recognizes he can make use of.

[Byzantine2]

Why wouldn't the ritual help? He has access to at least TWO arcane casters in the form of Zz'dtri and his own team's caster (three if you count Nale being part sorcerer), and now TWO divine casters in Malack and Durkon.

If Redcloak casting the ritual gives control of the Snarl to the Dark One, the it is reasonable to think that Malack casting the ritual would give control to Nergal.

And of course the argument that the arcane part of the ritual takes control for the CASTER - and it isn't until the divine portion that control is transferred to somebody else (a deity).

Most likely the divine portion is worthless without the arcane version and vice versa. But it is impossible for Malack to learn the ritual, the only way is for the Dark one to tell you how, and he isn't going to tell a lizardfolk vampire. So the ritual is worthless. Besides, that kind of thing seems way too overt and attention grabbing for TT.

[FlawedParadigm]

He and Elan are twins, so we wouldn't have had the latter either.

Probably a net gain for the multiverse, I am thinking.

[Rig]

You know, Malack is old enough for his entire tribe to be dead. I have a smidgeon of a suspicion that when they first met, Tarquin was not on his level. He's well out of Redcloak's range, and i have to admit to absolutely loving the idea of showing Xykon what someone comfortable Undead is really like, whilst speaking from the nearest level present, of course.

[Mike Havran]

Getting him killed by a more important villain is certainly one way of doing so and shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

Elan was happy when he said he got his "Yes! No! Sort of!" idea of defeating his father. Something tells me this is not what he had in mind at that time.

[Rig]

Xykon enjoys being a hammer far too much for him to ally himself with someone like Tarquin. He only keeps Redcloak around for the same reason that Redcloak keeps him around, they need each other. Tarquin has no such luck. Though I don't see Xykon inglorious crushing Tarquin either, while the anti-climax is good it has been done, and Tarquin doesn't seem stupid enough to talk to Xykon directly. As soon as he realizes Nale lied and has no chance of negotiating he will either retreat to his palace or to The OOTS, who he probably recognizes he can make use of.

Actually, scratch what i just said. Considering Nale has mentioned his boss being after the gate, Tarquin clearly being the type to keep up with intercontinental news such as Azure City, and already having guessed "a cliched scenery chewing villain bent on world domination", he's not going in blind. Tarquin obviously has something to pull out of the bag, as a Malack is a priest of a death god...

[Olinser]

You know, Malack is old enough for his entire tribe to be dead. I have a smidgeon of a suspicion that when they first met, Tarquin was not on his level. He's well out of Redcloak's range, and i have to admit to absolutely loving the idea of showing Xykon what someone comfortable Undead is really like, whilst speaking from the nearest level present, of course.

He could be holding back, but so far Malack has shown not a single ability that indicates he is above 11-12th level - he has not cast a single spell above 6th level.

Tarquin, on the other hand, is at an ABSOLUTE minimum of 14th level - Durkon has to be minimum level 13 to cast Holy Word, and he has to be a minimum 1 level higher to suffer no ill effects.

Given the fact that he was pretty easily handling the entire OOTS at once outside the pyramid, Tarquin ought to be quite a bit higher.

[SaintRidley]

You know, Malack is old enough for his entire tribe to be dead. I have a smidgeon of a suspicion that when they first met, Tarquin was not on his level. He's well out of Redcloak's range, and i have to admit to absolutely loving the idea of showing Xykon what someone comfortable Undead is really like, whilst speaking from the nearest level present, of course.

Of course, that doesn't mean Malack's all that high a level, if his ECL makes it hard for him to get XP anyway. And being a vampire sure makes that likely, with its +8 LA.



Tarquin, on the other hand, is at an ABSOLUTE minimum of 14th level - Durkon has to be minimum level 13 to cast Holy Word, and he has to be a minimum 1 level higher to suffer no ill effects.

Two levels higher. Unless I'm mistaken, Durkon had the Good Domain (+1 Caster level for figuring the effects of [Good] spells), which means that he was a minimum of level 13 and anyone unaffected would either be Good or minimum level 15.

[Olinser]

Of course, that doesn't mean Malack's all that high a level, if his ECL makes it hard for him to get XP anyway. And being a vampire sure makes that likely, with its +8 LA.




Two levels higher. Unless I'm mistaken, Durkon had the Good Domain (+1 Caster level for figuring the effects of [Good] spells), which means that he was a minimum of level 13 and anyone unaffected would either be Good or minimum level 15.

I thought Durkon was Weather domain - Thor's Lightning is basically Call Lightning, and Malack specifically said it was a 3rd level spell - that's the only way he'd really be able to use it. Plus, with all the lightning-themed spells it would seem to be the closest fit to him.

I haven't seen Durkon use any useful Good domain spells yet.

[Longest Skies]

However, it would make a very unsatisfying story if Xykon were killed by an NPC who was totally unknown through 95% of the comic, so I very, very seriously doubt it's going to shake out that way...

obnoxiously smug NPC who showed up only recently. Therefore, they will get the victory.

"Another little loser who thinks he's the main antagonist because he's got a fancy palace and a couple of armies. You know something, pal? You call yourself a villain but I look at you and all I see is 'amateur'. You're still at the stage where you're whining about how unfair the alignment system is and how you've just got a 'different point of view' and 'you're doing it all for the common good', aren't you? Well, you're not a real antagonist until you've embraced your evil, wallowed in it, filled every bone with it. And now, take that lesson with you down to Hell." ZAP

Ummm where to start. I apologize I am new so please defeat me gently. Obnoxiously smug NPC to me Tarquin seems like a "Extremely competent there for confident in his and his friends abilities" NPC

Also where had Tarquin ever whined, said it was for the common good, and Tarquin once said that he knows he is a minor antagonist. Basically telling Elan "If your quest means you can't spend a few days with you old man then it must be important."

[XanKrieger]

It's kind of annoying how every thread about a Tarquin and Xykon meeting regardless of context quickly devolves from pure reasoning into the We Hate Tarquin Club vs. Tarquin Fan Club with the rest of the people being drowned out.

Also, I'm not quite sure where people keep missing the fact that sapiens was talking about a theoretical match-up between Tarquin's 6 man original team vs. Team Evil.

Although I admit that it is funny how the characters levels in various "outcomes" seems to change with TT fluctuating the most from 15- i think someone went as high as mid 20s.

[Kish]

Two levels higher. Unless I'm mistaken, Durkon had the Good Domain (+1 Caster level for figuring the effects of [Good] spells), which means that he was a minimum of level 13 and anyone unaffected would either be Good or minimum level 15.
I do not know that I would bet on Rich having remembered that Durkon had the Good domain when he cast Holy Word.



Also where had Tarquin ever whined,

Whining is in the eye of the beholder.

said it was for the common good,

The appropriately named "Spins of the Father."

and Tarquin once said that he knows he is a minor antagonist.

No. He didn't. He told Elan that Elan must be busy thwarting some scenery-chewing villain bent on world domination. It is...apparently...possible to read that a way other than "Tarquin wants Elan to finish with the mid-boss he's currently dealing with so he can get on with the main plot, which, in Tarquin's mind, is all about his clash with his father." But Tarquin certainly did not say that he knows he is a minor antagonist.

It's kind of annoying how every thread about a Tarquin and Xykon meeting regardless of context quickly devolves from pure reasoning into the We Hate Tarquin Club vs. Tarquin Fan Club with the rest of the people being drowned out.
Sorry about that. :smallredface: I genuinely wanted to leave my first post ambiguous...just not "someone thinks I'm talking about shipping Tarquin and Xykon" ambiguous.

[Bulldog Psion]

Also where had Tarquin ever whined, said it was for the common good, and Tarquin once said that he knows he is a minor antagonist. Basically telling Elan "If your quest means you can't spend a few days with you old man then it must be important."

That's Xykon's interpretation for the speech I was imagining for him. You know, like the "power equals power" speech?

You don't think Xykon would compliment Tarquin while killing him, do you? :smallconfused: Snark, mockery, and murder go together when Xykon is involved.

[Caex]

That's Xykon's interpretation for the speech I was imagining for him. You know, like the "power equals power" speech?

You don't think Xykon would compliment Tarquin while killing him, do you? :smallconfused: Snark, mockery, and murder go together when Xykon is involved.

He seemed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) to have some strange respect for Roy, at least wanting to give him a chance to leave and come back stronger later. Not saying there is any particular reason to believe that Tarq would fall into the same category, but the category does exist.


It's kind of annoying how every thread about a Tarquin and Xykon meeting regardless of context quickly devolves from pure reasoning into the We Hate Tarquin Club vs. Tarquin Fan Club with the rest of the people being drowned out.
[snip]

I could not agree more.

[SaintRidley]

I haven't seen Durkon use any useful Good domain spells yet.

But he has used the spell Holy Smite, which only exists in the Good Domain. See strip 150. Also, with Mass Death Ward, 2 Resurrections, and Holy Word for 7th level spells today, he had to have Good as a domain, since the only spell that could occupy the domain slot would be Holy Word.


I thought Durkon was Weather domain - Thor's Lightning is basically Call Lightning, and Malack specifically said it was a 3rd level spell - that's the only way he'd really be able to use it. Plus, with all the lightning-themed spells it would seem to be the closest fit to him.

The Giant seems to have mixed some things up, with Durkon using spells that he could only use if he had access to three domains if sticking to Core. Which is why in Geekery, Durkon was always said to have the Thor Domain (a custom domain that makes that all make sense. I discount the idea that he would have Weather Control prepared as his domain slot for the day for obvious reasons.

[homeosapiens]

Eh, too true. This sucks.

I mean i come here to check what u wrote about my theory and the match up, and everybody seems to be writing about anything but this. Get a topic<get a room>.

[Rig]

I do not know that I would bet on Rich having remembered that Durkon had the Good domain when he cast Holy Word.


Whining is in the eye of the beholder.

The appropriately named "Spins of the Father."

No. He didn't. He told Elan that Elan must be busy thwarting some scenery-chewing villain bent on world domination. It is...apparently...possible to read that a way other than "Tarquin wants Elan to finish with the mid-boss he's currently dealing with so he can get on with the main plot, which, in Tarquin's mind, is all about his clash with his father." But Tarquin certainly did not say that he knows he is a minor antagonist.

Sorry about that. :smallredface: I genuinely wanted to leave my first post ambiguous...just not "someone thinks I'm talking about shipping Tarquin and Xykon" ambiguous.

Joke, for the record. Why are so many people approaching this from the perspective of an "oh crap" moment for team evil?

[Olinser]

Eh, too true. This sucks.

I mean i come here to check what u wrote about my theory and the match up, and everybody seems to be writing about anything but this. Get a topic<get a room>.

Well we pretty much realized that from the abilities demonstrated so far, a fight between Team Evil and Team Tarquin is going to last no longer than Xykon WANTS it to last.

The only way Tarquin could pose a semi-credible threat to him is if he gathered his entire team together to fight him, and they are much higher level than anything demonstrated in the comic shows.

From abilities shown so far, Malack is no higher than 12th level, Tarquin is probably mid/high teens (even if you give him credit for same ECL as Malack, he's still only 18 or so), and Nale's group are pretty much only useful as human shields.

As the leader, Tarquin is presumably the highest level in the party, which puts the others in the 15-17 range. Xykon could crush them the moment he chose to - the only character that has been a credible threat to him was Ghost Soon - an EPIC level Paladin. Xykon wasn't even worried when he was fighting Darth V - Redcloak didn't even help him (other than telling him about the splices), Xykon owned him 1v1.

That's not even taking into account Redcloak and the MiTD. Team Tarquin simply is nowhere close to Xykon's team in power.

[Bulldog Psion]

Joke, for the record. Why are so many people approaching this from the perspective of an "oh crap" moment for team evil?

I don't know, because as I've pointed out, Xykon definitely is NOT going to be defeated by the intervention of an NPC.

Tarquin may or may not die at Xykon's hands. But I'm about as sure as I am the sun's coming up tomorrow that he's not going to take over the story from the Order and hand the lich a defeat, either.

[homeosapiens]

Well we pretty much realized that from the abilities demonstrated so far, a fight between Team Evil and Team Tarquin is going to last no longer than Xykon WANTS it to last.

The only way Tarquin could pose a semi-credible threat to him is if he gathered his entire team together to fight him, and they are much higher level than anything demonstrated in the comic shows.

From abilities shown so far, Malack is no higher than 12th level, Tarquin is probably mid/high teens (even if you give him credit for same ECL as Malack, he's still only 18 or so), and Nale's group are pretty much only useful as human shields.

As the leader, Tarquin is presumably the highest level in the party, which puts the others in the 15-17 range. Xykon could crush them the moment he chose to - the only character that has been a credible threat to him was Ghost Soon - an EPIC level Paladin. Xykon wasn't even worried when he was fighting Darth V - Redcloak didn't even help him (other than telling him about the splices), Xykon owned him 1v1.

That's not even taking into account Redcloak and the MiTD. Team Tarquin simply is nowhere close to Xykon's team in power.

Teams should be same ecl. Nevermind. I refuse to put them lower than 18 anyhow. I believe lv 18 fighter wouldnt solo order the way tarquin did. He is higher.


Ok we got 6 18 lv adventurers.

On the other side Xykon and Redcloak(Mitd watches the sky or thies to get in the light)

2 arcane casters(surprise round):
time stop
time stop
bears endurance, bull strenght, owls wisdom, cat's grace (mass)
protection from spells x4

Round 1:
T attacks RC 4 times
Barbarian attacks RC 4 times
RC is almost dead
Arcane 1 casts timestop
protection from spells x2
haste, slow
Arcane 2
dysjunction on xykon (no more magic items man)
rouge sneaks RC is dead
Malak casts Heal on xykon

X: WTF? Letz run.

And that could go way different - im just pointing out the stupid thing in your no challenge for xykon clause. during this scenario Xykon dies in second round and does not kill nobody.

Factor in that Tarquin would also have zzdri nale and vampire durkon.

[kickassfrog]

"Another little loser who thinks he's the main antagonist because he's got a fancy palace and a couple of armies. You know something, pal? You call yourself a villain but I look at you and all I see is 'amateur'. You're still at the stage where you're whining about how unfair the alignment system is and how you've just got a 'different point of view' and 'you're doing it all for the common good', aren't you? Well, you're not a real antagonist until you've embraced your evil, wallowed in it, filled every bone with it. And now, take that lesson with you down to Hell." ZAP

Tarquin can both defeat Xykon and smash him to pieces, but as long as the phylactery is intact, Xykon comes back.

Also I was thinking a rough skeleton would be more like "Hey junior (Xykon is older than Tarquin, and its pretty offhandedly insulting), some fancy trinkets and ruling from the shadows don't make you all badass enough to take on an epic sorcerer lich (I'm assuming X knows who T is by this confrontation). I could kill you now, but it would be funnier for me to get the PCs to do it. Besides, it should help level them up enough to make an interesting climactic showdown. (Also possible reference to xykons outright murder for fun and, no, not even profit, just fun)

Maybe I should make a thread to hammer together a Reason You Suck Speech (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheReasonYouSuckSpeech) from X to T

[Mike Havran]

rouge sneaks RC is dead
Malak casts Heal on xykon

X: WTF? Letz run.


:biggrin:

Oh, man... as much as it won't happen because plot stuff, this is hilarious.

[SoC175]

Redcloak isn't Epic, he's level 17. So, about on par with a spellcaster from TT. Unless their other spellcaster sucks as much as Malak at actually being a spellcaster

You know, Malack is old enough for his entire tribe to be dead. I have a smidgeon of a suspicion that when they first met, Tarquin was not on his level. He's well out of Redcloak's range Since too much of Malacks ECL comes from being a vampire, he's actually outclassed by a "real cleric" like Redcloak. And turn undead only counts real HD, all his level adjustment won't help Malack.

While Redcloak doesn't have enough HD to dominate Malack, he certainly can rebuke him with as low a roll as 0 )assuming Malack has 13 actual levels under his level adjustment).

[Rig]

I don't know, because as I've pointed out, Xykon definitely is NOT going to be defeated by the intervention of an NPC.

Tarquin may or may not die at Xykon's hands. But I'm about as sure as I am the sun's coming up tomorrow that he's not going to take over the story from the Order and hand the lich a defeat, either.

Missing the point. Why in hell would Tarquin not be familiar with Xykon and his power by now?

[Mike Havran]

While Redcloak doesn't have enough HD to dominate Malack, he certainly can rebuke him with as low a roll as 0 )assuming Malack has 13 actual levels under his level adjustment).

That's not correct. Malack has his cleric levels, +4 turning resistance as a vampire, possibility to bolster himself and his racial Hit Dice from whatever creature he is.

That said, Redcloak is more powerful as long as Malack doesn't have a few Celeric leels more than what he displayed so far.

[Longest Skies]

Missing the point. Why in hell would Tarquin not be familiar with Xykon and his power by now?

Well he recently learned of the gates. He has been running various empires. Xyclon don't seem to actually be that well known. Asides from the Order and maybe the Saphire Guard and some nobles know about the lich.

Tarquin may learn of him... but we keep forgetting Tarquin and the Linear Guild is back at Bleedingham or whatever.

Team Tarquin hasn't really been introduced and I don't think they will for a while if at all.

[Olinser]

Teams should be same ecl. Nevermind. I refuse to put them lower than 18 anyhow. I believe lv 18 fighter wouldnt solo order the way tarquin did. He is higher.


Ok we got 6 18 lv adventurers.

On the other side Xykon and Redcloak(Mitd watches the sky or thies to get in the light)

2 arcane casters(surprise round):
time stop
time stop
bears endurance, bull strenght, owls wisdom, cat's grace (mass)
protection from spells x4

Round 1:
T attacks RC 4 times
Barbarian attacks RC 4 times
RC is almost dead
Arcane 1 casts timestop
protection from spells x2
haste, slow
Arcane 2
dysjunction on xykon (no more magic items man)
rouge sneaks RC is dead
Malak casts Heal on xykon

X: WTF? Letz run.

And that could go way different - im just pointing out the stupid thing in your no challenge for xykon clause. during this scenario Xykon dies in second round and does not kill nobody.

Factor in that Tarquin would also have zzdri nale and vampire durkon.

A) ALL of them are level 18? That's an extreme reach. Malack hasn't shown to be above level 12, and the others haven't done anything on panel.

B) 2 Arcane casters? Only one of them was shown doing anything arcane, and he used a magic item both times. Why would he waste charges from a wand freezing Tarquin's 'blushing bride's' feet if he was capable of doing it himself? Sure Ioun Stone chick might be an arcane caster... but who knows?

C) You give them a surprise round because.... you really, really want them to win?

D) IF they have a surprise round... they start in melee range of Redcloak why exactly?

E) You think they were willing to blow over 30,000 gp on diamonds JUST for that many protection from spells (besides the stupidity of both of them exclusively prepared ONLY that spell in 8th level spots)? Right now, they are nowhere near Xykon and Redcloak... which means that the only way they are encountering him is if Xykon already owns the Gate. In which case... he's ready for them.

E) Even IF they have Disjunction, Xykon has to blow a Will save on every item he has to be affected. An Epic sorcerer has a +12 Will save without any bonuses at all. Xykon laughs at your Disjunction.

F) You don't even have a single action for Xykon or Redcloak included. That right there should clue people into the fact you are just presenting an absurdly optimal scenario that will never happen.

I can do it too:

Surprise Round:
RC casts Implosion - Arcane Caster 1 dies.
Xykon casts Maximized Energy Drain - Rogue is now level 10. No sneak attack, ignorable for the rest of the fight.

Round 1:
RC casts Implosion - Arcane Caster 2 dies.
Xykon casts Maximized Energy Drain - Barbarian is now level 10
Barbarian attacks RC, dealing no real damage
Tarquin attacks RC, dealing moderate damage
Malack attempts to cast Heal on Xykon, misses touch attack

Round 2:
RC casts Destruction - Malack dies
Xykon casts Energy Drain - Tarquin is now low teens
Tarquin and Barbarian attack RC, dealing low damage

Round 3:
RC casts Heal
Xykon casts Energy Drain

De-escalates into Xykon finishing Tarquin and the Barbarian off while Redcloak heals what paltry damage they can do now that they're too low level to be a threat, before chasing Malack down and staking him.

That doesn't even require the MiTD to eat one of them. Put him in the mix and you're looking at TPK for Tarquin at the end of round 1.

That doesn't even require Xykon to use an Epic spell, or any spell he and RC haven't already used on-panel.

Doesn't prove much, does it?

I highly doubt that the Giant would write such an anti-climax fight.

[Tomada]

Teams should be same ecl. Nevermind. I refuse to put them lower than 18 anyhow. I believe lv 18 fighter wouldnt solo order the way tarquin did. He is higher.


Ok we got 6 18 lv adventurers.

On the other side Xykon and Redcloak(Mitd watches the sky or thies to get in the light)

2 arcane casters(surprise round):
time stop
time stop
bears endurance, bull strenght, owls wisdom, cat's grace (mass)
protection from spells x4

Round 1:
T attacks RC 4 times
Barbarian attacks RC 4 times
RC is almost dead
Arcane 1 casts timestop
protection from spells x2
haste, slow
Arcane 2
dysjunction on xykon (no more magic items man)
rouge sneaks RC is dead
Malak casts Heal on xykon

X: WTF? Letz run.

And that could go way different - im just pointing out the stupid thing in your no challenge for xykon clause. during this scenario Xykon dies in second round and does not kill nobody.

Factor in that Tarquin would also have zzdri nale and vampire durkon.


I would rather fight Tarquin, Malack and Durkon against Xykon + RC. I don't think he would have time to recall his allies.

Even then, it is a credible threat. The 2 clerics could provide protection against Both Xykon and RC spells. Though a casting of Superb Dispelling should strip then of everything and then some, they could cast again in the next round. I don't think Xykon has that many Epic Spell Slots, and even then taking 10d6 backslash each time can get painful when you don't have a con modifier.

Unless Xykon can cast a Quickened Time Stop I don't think he can kill TT with a Move + Free action after the dispelling. Even if RC acted after the dispelling, he would not be able to kill or control any of then, by virtue of then having High HP or High Will Saves (Assuming Tarquin has a High Will Save, which is reasonable for an (almost) Epic level warrior of some kind).

After that, we could assume Tarquin, being an strategist, would target RC, which is an easier target to take out of battle. Tripping, grappling or otherwise crippling RC severely.
As a (almost) Epic level warrior, it is almost impossible for Tarquin to NOT have some kind of Spellcasting disrupting/Concentration disrupting ability. Making concentration checks for RC start to become a serious disadvantage. And by positioning himself tactically Tarquin could make RC unwilling or unable to take 5ft steps before casting. That is assuming he does not use the exotic grappling techniques he taught (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html)Malack, which could include preventing a pinned character from speaking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling).

Ok, so Tarquin will try to incapacitate RC in his turn. Both Malack and Durkon could try numerous things against Xykon. In special abusing low reflex saves, or even just Codzillaing Xykon with Righteous Might, divine Favor and whatnot. Lets assume they both use their turn to put up some Mass Death Ward and Mass Resist Energy (durkon should know Xykon's spell from preparing with Roy) to protect thenselves against Xykon.

2nd Round:

RC: Is Tripped, Grappled, cornered with no way to safely cast spells against Tarquin. If Grappled could only Word of Recall away or... I don't know, there aren't many spells with only vocal components on the Cleric arsenal. If Tripped, mostly everything would trigger an Attack of Opportunity, making it extremely detrimental to his health doing anything other than a Word of Recall. If only cornered he could try to take a 5ft step and cast... IDK, Implosion, one of his best spells on Tarquin. Tarquin would likely shrug it off with a high Fort Save (+12base +6CON +5magic item... against a DC of 10base + 9spell level + 9 wis, so a d20 + 23 against a DC of 28, a 5 will save... and that is assuming that Taquing CON is THAT low, and RC wis is THAT high, and Tarquin doesn't have any feat, favorable multi-classing and things of the like).

Xykon: He could try to dispell TT protections again, but I find it unlikely. Since Meteor Swarm and Negative Energy are useless here, he could fall back to a good old Finger of Death, and another, quickened one for good measure. And that is assuming rules are bent in TE favor, since sorcerers can't actually quicken anything. Or not, since both the clerics are undead, and thus imune to anything requiring a Fortitude Save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType). He then settles for a couple Lighting Bolts (of his spells known to us, these are the best choices without dispelling anything IMO), one normal, other quickened. Let's say he gets both clerics on the same spell and both fail both saves, he does 20d6 damage, about 70 damage against some 15 (ish) HD Malack and Durkon, which should have about 104 HP but have energy resistance 10 (for being vampires), they are down to about half their HP.

Tarquin: Assuming RC has about 20 CON with magic itens, he should have about 171 HP. If he is in a grapple, RC is incapacitated but will survive several rounds, as 1 attack, even power attacked to the max will not kill him in 1 round, at least 4~5 rounds if no one interferes. If RC is tripped, a full power attack by Tarquin with a 2hander should down RC or be very close to doing so. If RC is standing then a full attack should be pretty damn crippling, but not kill because full power attacking would not be optimal.

Team Cleric:
Inflict Serious Wonds, Mass, which COULD include RC if close enough. 3d8+15 (Durkon), 28HP healed. Both stand at 82HP left, plus 5 from fast healing, so 87HP left.
Malack then casts Blade Barrier on Xykon, causing 15d6 damage on the already 10d6 damaged Xykon (Super Dispelling), so Xykon lost 25d6 (87damage) from his potential 30d12 = 202HP, he is nearly down half HP.

Round3:

RC: Irrelevant, dead or harmless by now. IF alive may try to Recall or Heal, may try a Miracle instead.

Xykon: Realizing he has to dispell the effects tries a smaller greater dispell that, miraculously dispell all 6 effects (2 spells on each character on TT, it should have a "decent" chance each time, +20 bonus against 13 and 15 caster levels, but all 6 is highly unlikely). Being a 6th level spell, he quickens it and then Meteor Swarms. 24d6 of damage is 84 damage of the 87 left. In average both barely survive.

Tarquin: Finishes off RC. Assuming he didn't just mug RC's holy symbol and left RC to watch the battle from the sidelines and jumped Xykon.

Team Cleric: Harm their way to FULL HP each, since I'm pretty sure they have more 6th and 7th level slots than Xykon has 10th.



And on and on, via attrition they won.

------------------------------------------------------------


Even bending rules in favor of TE (quickened sorcerer spells?) with what we KNOW of the characters, TE would have a very very hard time fighting Vampires and a truly high level prepared warrior.

[Mike Havran]

I don't think there has to be any heated debate about how would the battle look like. We know very little about Tarquin's team's possible strenght, so it's basically up to one's imagination and wishful thinking :smallamused:

Xykon is Epic and could be anywhere there, really. Redcloak is 17, exactly.

Malack has ECL at least 23 if he's lizardfolk. If he's some snake-thingy he's in 30-ties and if his pals are pure character class then...yeah.

I guess we'll never find out. But if we will, it'll be awesome.

[Grogmir]

I'm in this camp.


Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
Well we pretty much realized that from the abilities demonstrated so far, a fight between Team Evil and Team Tarquin is going to last no longer than Xykon WANTS it to last.

Now there's been some pretty "in depth" analysis of how TT could possible beat TE, I don't deny they are dangerous NPCs.

We also know that Tarquin & Elan have unfinished business, so somehow I think it'll be Elan that "deals" with T, i.e I don't think Xykon will just kill him.

But on any given day. My monies on TE every single time.

On a related point, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Do I think they'll be some Evil on Evil action? Yes. Just to thin the field for OotS a little, but do I think it'll be a TPK for TT? no. for reasons mentioned above.

[Tomada]

A) ALL of them are level 18? That's an extreme reach. Malack hasn't shown to be above level 12, and the others haven't done anything on panel.

B) 2 Arcane casters? Only one of them was shown doing anything arcane, and he used a magic item both times. Why would he waste charges from a wand freezing Tarquin's 'blushing bride's' feet if he was capable of doing it himself? Sure Ioun Stone chick might be an arcane caster... but who knows?

C) You give them a surprise round because.... you really, really want them to win?

D) IF they have a surprise round... they start in melee range of Redcloak why exactly?

E) You think they were willing to blow over 30,000 gp on diamonds JUST for that many protection from spells (besides the stupidity of both of them exclusively prepared ONLY that spell in 8th level spots)? Right now, they are nowhere near Xykon and Redcloak... which means that the only way they are encountering him is if Xykon already owns the Gate. In which case... he's ready for them.

E) Even IF they have Disjunction, Xykon has to blow a Will save on every item he has to be affected. An Epic sorcerer has a +12 Will save without any bonuses at all. Xykon laughs at your Disjunction.

F) You don't even have a single action for Xykon or Redcloak included. That right there should clue people into the fact you are just presenting an absurdly optimal scenario that will never happen.

I can do it too:

I REALLY don't like the scenario where Tarquin has a full party, but...

Surprise Round:
RC casts Implosion - Arcane Caster 1 dies.
Xykon casts Maximized Energy Drain - Rogue is now level 10. No sneak attack, ignorable for the rest of the fight.

If they are not warded by death ward, Arcane caster dies, ok.
Xykon, with his incredible 1/2BAB could not hit a Ray effect on a high level ROGUE if his undeath depended on it, good luck with that. And I don't think you understand negative level rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) on 3.5. A 18th level rogue could have more than 25 touch AC, easily. Xykon would miss 50~60% of the time, and that is STILL assuming no death Ward

Edit: before someone points to the surprise round: here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#uncannyDodge)


Round 1:
RC casts Implosion - Arcane Caster 2 dies.
Xykon casts Maximized Energy Drain - Barbarian is now level 10
Barbarian attacks RC, dealing no real damage
Tarquin attacks RC, dealing moderate damage
Malack attempts to cast Heal on Xykon, misses touch attack

EDIT: Before someone points that you lose your dex to AC before you act, also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#uncannyDodge)

Assuming still no death Ward, 2nd Arcane Caster also fail fort save and dies.
Xykon should have a decent chance to hit a barbarian with Energy Drain, assuming a touch AC of about 16 or 18, give him a 80% chance to hit, it hits and drains 8 levels. Barbarian has -8 to hit and -8 to Strength, so a minus 12 to hit, total. And a minus 6 to damage. Against a squishy Cleric? Not a Big Deal. Will still do upwards of 50 damage per round on a full-attack. Tarquin as well would be doing at least this amount, plus whatever clever trick he has (Trip, Grapple, Stunning something, Anti-Spellcaster trick, whatever).
Malack missing a touch attack against Xykon is so so. Assuming he has, like, 10 + 4 (dex) + 10 (epic ring) = 24 touch AC, even Malack should have +8 (BAB) + 6 (dex, he has +4 just being a vampire), making him hit more than 50% of the time. And that's assuming a lot for TE. And assuming Malack is a complete IDIOT for not casting Mass Death Ward after being energy drained twice and having 2 death effects occur on the party.
And we still have a Rogue completely capable of Sneak Attacking as good as any other day, with only a minor penaty to hit. And that is assuming every single Die Roll was in favor of Team Evil, managing to hit with less than 50% and evade with more than 50%, and with BOTH casters failing saving throws.



Round 2:
RC casts Destruction - Malack dies
Xykon casts Energy Drain - Tarquin is now low teens
Tarquin and Barbarian attack RC, dealing low damage

RC casts destruction, fails because Malack is IMUNE...
Xykon casts Energy Drain, has a further-4 penalty on top of the 1/2BAB because Tarquin is in Melee (with him or RC). Even if it hits, it is nothing Tarquin can't take and still be a credible melee threat.
Barbarian by now should have downed RC with the added damage of Sneak Attack.
Full party of 4 now moves on to attack Xykon.
Malack still standing now casts something actually useful, like, for example, a Blade Barrier, Flaming Strike, or some buff for his party, Mass Resist Energy, Mass Death Ward (assuming he let the enemy cast 6 spells which would be blocked by it before trying to cast it), or any of the bazillion buff spells he has.


Round 3:
RC casts Heal
Xykon casts Energy Drain

RC is dead, Xykon would be wiser to actually do something useful and cast Meteor Swarm plus another, more useful spell. Or the old trick of Time Stop plus a handful Delayed Blast Fireballs (if he has those spells) and wouldn't down a single one of then. And that is, again, assuming Malack didn't protect then.
Everything up to now assumed TE have good Die Rolls, TT acting stupidly and even then, TT is winning. Astounding, isn't it?

Unless Xykon have a lot more firepower under his belt (which he should) by using what we know of him and his spells a prepared High Level party should be too much for him to handle.

De-escalates into Xykon finishing Tarquin and the Barbarian off while Redcloak heals what paltry damage they can do now that they're too low level to be a threat, before chasing Malack down and staking him.

That doesn't even require the MiTD to eat one of them. Put him in the mix and you're looking at TPK for Tarquin at the end of round 1.

Answers in RED

EDIT2:
And before anyone asks, the depiction of the combat that was quoted by the above poster is bonkers as well, but I will not detail why at this time.

[Olinser]

Answers in RED

EDIT2:
And before anyone asks, the depiction of the combat that was quoted by the above poster is bonkers as well, but I will not detail why at this time.

That's the point - it's NOT realistic, and I wrote it quick so I admittedly messed up a couple rules.

The point was to illustrate that if you try and claim one side is perfectly stacked against the other, the outcome is inevitable.

But on another note... Xykon seems to be EERILY accurate with Energy Drain. Has he actually missed it once yet?

[Poppatomus]

Answers in RED

EDIT2:
And before anyone asks, the depiction of the combat that was quoted by the above poster is bonkers as well, but I will not detail why at this time.

I don't doubt your mechanics analysis, but I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. His point was that either party can "wipe the floor" with the other one, if the conditions are just right in terms or roles and strategies, since one side is a more numerous group of high level characters, and the other side is a smaller group of epic level characters.

Since on pure power, especially with all the unknowns that remain, either side could win decisively, the question shifts from "can we game out a likely scenario in the mechanics that would be conclusive?" it instead becomes, "how would they actually meet in the story?"

On that second question, like many of the other plot-oriented posters above, I can't think of a likely scenario where the parties encounter each other where X/RC/MitD wouldn't ultimately win. If they really are outclassed or surprised they will flee (or perhaps miracle themselves away, since RC has cast 9th level spells). If they have time to prepare, as with Azure city, we've seen what they can do, and there's no advantage TT has that acts as a trump to the kind of epic spell casting available to TE. And that makes sense because, in plot terms, if TE isn't really a global threat, but just the biggest jerks in the starting location, it makes the story too small.

[homeosapiens]

Energy Drain doesnt get attributes - just skill/ attribute checks.

I think we should cancel surprise round and roll dice on who goes first in next scenarios.

Xykon doesnt have time stop. Meteor swarm, energy drain and soul bind.

Also:
A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + one-half its caster level (round down).

That'd be 17 if we put xykon at 30. Which i think he is not(30 ecl, maybe).
Against 10+9+9 -28 saves 45% of the time. Also items made when Xykon was lower lever go easier.

[Olinser]

Energy Drain doesnt get attributes - just skill/ attribute checks.

I think we should cancel surprise round and roll dice on who goes first in next scenarios.

Xykon doesnt have time stop. Meteor swarm, energy drain and soul bind.

Also:
A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + one-half its caster level (round down).

That'd be 17 if we put xykon at 30. Which i think he is not(30 ecl, maybe).
Against 10+9+9 -28 saves 45% of the time. Also items made when Xykon was lower lever go easier.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm

'each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. An item in a creature’s possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor’s Will save bonus, whichever is higher. '

Xykon's save is a minimum +12, plus feats, items and abilities. I'd be surprised if he isn't rocking a mid-20's Will save.

[homeosapiens]

Antimagic field on barbarian as he grapples xykon in his rage.

K.O.

Kill RC when Xykon is unable to help, finish Xykon.

Edit: If he can use superb dispelling on antimagic field - do it again.

[Raineh Daze]

Just going to state the thing that seems to keep getting missed in the above scenarios:

Winning does not mean wiping out the opposing party. If Xykon and Redcloak retreated to prepare for another confrontation with the same party, with epic spells on the table, then they still lost the fight. :smallannoyed:

[Mr.Rictus]

The only way Tarquin could pose a semi-credible threat to him is if he gathered his entire team together to fight him, and they are much higher level than anything demonstrated in the comic shows.
As the leader, Tarquin is presumably the highest level in the party, which puts the others in the 15-17 range. Xykon could crush them the moment he chose to - the only character that has been a credible threat to him was Ghost Soon - an EPIC level Paladin.
That's not even taking into account Redcloak and the MiTD. Team Tarquin simply is nowhere close to Xykon's team in power.

I agree with you that Tarquin and Malack with the Linear Guild would be stomped in a straight fight, however I don't think the same thing could be said for Tarquin's entire team.
As you've already mentioned, all of Tarquin's team is probably around lvl 16 and probably not higher than 18-19 (however, I don't understand this logic that the leader HAS to be higher level than the others, but I digress).
Tarquin has been shown to be a superior combatant to any one member of the OOTS, and even surviving a straight fight with them. Yet the OOTS has actually undeniably beat Xykon (true, the conditions were in their favor, but it still happened). Also, Tarquin has been shown to be a great strategist, and is probably exactly aware of each of his team's battle prowess.
My bet is that if Tarquin had time to get ready, learn of TE's abilities, gather all his team and his resources, he would probably win after a grueling fight. After all, Roy thought his team might stand a chance against them eventually. However, I seriously doubt that will actually happen. But we'll see.

[FlawedParadigm]

Just going to state the thing that seems to keep getting missed in the above scenarios:

Winning does not mean wiping out the opposing party. If Xykon and Redcloak retreated to prepare for another confrontation with the same party, with epic spells on the table, then they still lost the fight. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, and won the war. Once Xykon knows they exist, that same Epic magic means if he considers them a threat, the next day he pulls a scry & die.

"Hey, Redcloak, those chumps from yesterday, find them."
"Okay, they're at X."
"Greater Teleport. Momento Mori." There goes Tarquin. He has just about no chance to survive that. DC 30 + whatever Xykon's Charisma modifier is. Oh, and MM's a quickened action, so he can still blow another spell against the rest of whomever is there at that point. If one of Xykon's unknown 6th level spells is Disintegrate, a couple of those would dust Malack.

Even without Epic spells, if you think for a moment anything Tarquin's group is likely to be capable of (unless the other four are much, much more powerful than Tarquin and Malack) would pose a serious threat to him, you're vastly underestimating Sorcerers and Liches both. They're only maybe slightly higher level than the Order, who aside from Roy didn't even mildly inconvenience Xykon last time they crossed paths, and Roy only did so because his weapon was specifically designed to do so.

If you've not played D&D extensively, don't think that what we've seen of V is any indication of what arcane casters are actually capable of. V is about as poorly built a Wizard as one can manage. Xykon actually seems halfway well-powergamed. If he's actually about level 28 as speculated (assuming he can do Maximised Energy Drain under his own power and not through items or somesuch), he's barely below a demigod. Remember, Roy is the *second generation* of family going after this guy, and no one even mildly threatened him that we saw during the 70 odd years he was alive (SoD) and he spent all that time being a total bastard and racking up enemies too. He's had someone or other trying to kill him for 80 or 90 years now. Soon's the closest anyone came to succeeding, and he's no longer allowed to interfere in the affairs of the physical world. If this strip wasn't called The Order of the Stick, I wouldn't think they stood the slightest chance either.

In the end, they may never even destroy him - they may simply thwart all his plans. I don't think it's narratively likely, but the strip may end with Xykon still a threat to the world. It wouldn't be surprising; some liches have survived a millennium or more. They're serious business.

[Olinser]

I agree with you that Tarquin and Malack with the Linear Guild would be stomped in a straight fight, however I don't think the same thing could be said for Tarquin's entire team.
As you've already mentioned, all of Tarquin's team is probably around lvl 16 and probably not higher than 18-19 (however, I don't understand this logic that the leader HAS to be higher level than the others, but I digress).
Tarquin has been shown to be a superior combatant to any one member of the OOTS, and even surviving a straight fight with them. Yet the OOTS has actually undeniably beat Xykon (true, the conditions were in their favor, but it still happened). Also, Tarquin has been shown to be a great strategist, and is probably exactly aware of each of his team's battle prowess.
My bet is that if Tarquin had time to get ready, learn of TE's abilities, gather all his team and his resources, he would probably win after a grueling fight. After all, Roy thought his team might stand a chance against them eventually. However, I seriously doubt that will actually happen. But we'll see.

If by 'undeniably beat' Xykon you mean, 'didn't do a single HP of damage while Xykon didn't use a single high-level spell because he was screwing with them, before exploiting a one-of-a-kind dungeon trap to get rid of him temporarily', then yes, they 'won'.

[Raineh Daze]

Yeah, and won the war. Once Xykon knows they exist, that same Epic magic means if he considers them a threat, the next day he pulls a scry & die.

Which is beyond the scope of the thread, no? It's about a straight-up conflict between the two teams, not a protacted conflict.

This also assumes that no-one in TT thought to invest in this fun thing at any point (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm), or to put it to use after, you know, driving off an epic levelled lich that would want revenge. Any drawn out scenario involving the two groups would surely be more interesting than an offhand defeat. A battle of wits could buy the Order some time, too. :smallamused:

[FlawedParadigm]

Which is beyond the scope of the thread, no? It's about a straight-up conflict between the two teams, not a protacted conflict.

This also assumes that no-one in TT thought to invest in this fun thing at any point (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm), or to put it to use after, you know, driving off an epic levelled lich that would want revenge. Any drawn out scenario involving the two groups would surely be more interesting than an offhand defeat. A battle of wits could buy the Order some time, too. :smallamused:

Oh, okay. Well I guess if you assume that Team Tarquin has foreknowledge of the conflict (including factoring in Redcloak, who they don't know exists, because Nale was no longer working for Xykon by the time Redcloak even had a name, much less any importance), and every possible advantage, and that Team Evil has every possible disadvantage and no knowledge of the conflict - ignoring, of course, that the one and only time Xykon has had to deal with any actual threat involved (again) Soon, who had the Epic Inside view from above and was incorporeal and invisible until the need arose, then...

...it still wouldn't matter worth a damn, because even if we generously ignore this theoretical extremely lopsided encounter you've dreamed up would be realistically impossible, given that even under these ideal conditions of yours, Xykon has access to so much power at Epic that it wouldn't matter at all. It would be completely in character for Xykon to have Lord of Nightmares, and even assuming that Tarquin has assembled all six of his old companions for this fight (risking control of his entire empire, because for some reason you're convinced he'd risk it, and his life, for no particular gain) and they all were immune to the Worst Nightmare ability, the Larva would _still_ have more than enough resources to destroy an entire 17th-20th level team with the two minutes it would have to do so, including its summoning abilities. Given its defences, there's a strong chance that the six of them combined couldn't do enough damage to it to wound it for five minutes.

And that's just a DC 50 Epic spell. Xykon probably doesn't even have to roll to pass that, given that we know he spends weeks at a time making magic items. Surely he's made a +20 or more Spellcraft item by now. Even +100 wouldn't tax his resources very heavily. Mass Frog could potentially end the entire conflict in one standard action. This is just stuff from the standard Epic spell list too; and we know (via Cloister) that Rich is already willing to dream up custom Epic spells as serves his narrative need. There's literally a hundred ways Xykon could deal with a group of pre-epic characters with no warning at all without even going through half his spell slots. His greatest setback might be spending a couple of rounds deciding exactly how painfully he wants to kill them all. This whole comic is one group of characters planning for this one conflict. They still may not succeed. I understand you've got a massive crush on Tarquin and pals, but that doesn't make them capable of taking on a foe of this stature.

Mind you, this is granting you your best case scenario that they get the drop on Xykon with massive preparation and a pile of buffs. It's also not even including Redcloak, who has Implosion, which is a nightmare in and of itself. It doesn't have a [Death] descriptor, because even though it kills the targets, it's not an actual death effect, so it can't be protected from by Death Ward or anything of the sort. Anyone who doesn't have a high enough Fort save is just going to die. That's just one spell of his - and it lasts for four rounds. He can kill up to four people with bad fort saves. Meaning whomever Tarquin's Rogue and Arcane casters are would probably die before getting to accomplish anything useful. If Xykon didn't turn them all into frogs first. It's also ignoring that Xykon is a lich and even if your fantasy scenario somehow did happen, killing Xykon wouldn't mean a damned thing unless they know about the phylactery and actually have a means of destroying it.

It's difficult to communicate exactly how ridiculously crushed Team Tarquin would end up. It took 26 nations to band together and stop Tarquin's army. 50 might not be enough to stop Xykon. At the end of the day, Tarquin was a guy with an axe, with a lot of other guys who had axes, and maybe a couple of casters, but largely a bunch of people who hit other people with pointy things. That's not going to stand up to stuff an epic spellcaster can do, like rip causality a new one, toy with the fabric of time, create eidolons and time duplicates and all kinds of other crazy ridiculous stuff. I wasn't kidding when I said he was near demigod power.

[Kish]

I think that Tarquin always comes prepared. What do i mean by that? He got 6 people team, which includes a arcane spellcaster Miron - this means that they all have some security measure items that can teleport them to one another and probably give a fast warning where they need to come.

If Xykon is to come for the gate any second now, he will not have easy task - he will face full about 20 lv Team Tarquin + vampire Durkon+ LG leftovers, and in the epickness of this confrontation the gate will go boom due to our heroes destroying it or sth.

Your thoughts on this?


Which is beyond the scope of the thread, no? It's about a straight-up conflict between the two teams, not a protacted conflict.
As far as I can tell, the OP of the thread is asking for thoughts about something that the thread-starter thinks might actually happen, not asking us to participate in a pure "what would happen if Xykon's group got dumped in an arena with Tarquin's six-member adventuring party" thought exercise.

So, no. "Xykon would retreat and smash them the next day" is not in any way beyond the scope of this thread. If you want to argue against it, you'll have to argue against it, not just disallow it.

[homeosapiens]

We know Xykon has Cloister and superb dispeling.

You are in love with Xykon too much. He's a demigod? Unkillable? Thats a fantasy ****, and never gonna happen but - 6 lv 20 casters. 6 sunbursts and Xykon is dead(well dead-dead, not undead-dead) in surprise round, before he got to know what the hell is happening.

Truth is Xykon never faced a real challenge. And More actions per round is a real advantage, when you cant just kill them with 1 spell because they are too high level for that.

Implosion killed elf commander. Not a 18lv character. Who has enought money to spend 50k on a propaganda event.

(+3 from con modifier, +5 from cloack of ressistance, anyone of them should have it)

[Longest Skies]

I feel as of right now people are forgetting that the only Linear Guild people ( I won't call it team Tarquin, because well technically Tarquin isn't the leader.) left in the pyramid is Malack and I suppose Vampire Durkon. Since Tarquin isn't the one calling the shots and they said they would wait for Sabine to come back. They aren't getting back before Xyclon shows up.

If there is a conflict I think I will be in a while, because Tarquin will come back to the pyramid see either Xyclon/ Team Evil's powers first hand or just see the aftermath of something.

[Olinser]

I feel as of right now people are forgetting that the only Linear Guild people ( I won't call it team Tarquin, because well technically Tarquin isn't the leader.) left in the pyramid is Malack and I suppose Vampire Durkon. Since Tarquin isn't the one calling the shots and they said they would wait for Sabine to come back. They aren't getting back before Xyclon shows up.

If there is a conflict I think I will be in a while, because Tarquin will come back to the pyramid see either Xyclon/ Team Evil's powers first hand or just see the aftermath of something.

Tarquin's group are going back inside to the room with the corpses, thinking Malack will go back there.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html

[Kish]

No, no one said they were waiting for Sabine to come back. People are "forgetting" that because it never happened.

[Raineh Daze]

At the really long post up there: at no point have I been arguing for anything like that. All I have said is that victory does not need to be complete annihilation of the enemy, and then misunderstood the first post. You're attacking the wrong person about incredibly lopsided battles. :smallsigh:

If scry-and-die is valid, that still sounds weirdly non-Xykonish. Maybe because I can't really imagine his possessing spells that don't massively aid in hurting people, and I have no idea if he actually has any teleportation spells of his own.

[Tomada]

Energy Drain doesnt get attributes - just skill/ attribute checks.

I think we should cancel surprise round and roll dice on who goes first in next scenarios.

Xykon doesnt have time stop. Meteor swarm, energy drain and soul bind.

Also:
A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + one-half its caster level (round down).

That'd be 17 if we put xykon at 30. Which i think he is not(30 ecl, maybe).
Against 10+9+9 -28 saves 45% of the time. Also items made when Xykon was lower lever go easier.

Energy drain doesn't get attributes, put get attribute checks, which Damage is (A strength check).

I Know that we don't know if he has time stop, I explicitly said I was giving it to him without knowing if he has it.

As for the magic itens, you usually create it at the lowest possible level, because they are so damn expensive and suck all that XP.


Without knowing more about the characters we can assume that Xykon and RC are horribly outclassed against someone immune to Death Effects and Fire Damage, which consist about 90% of their higher level capabilities that we know of.

[Raineh Daze]

I Know that we don't know if he has time stop, I explicitly said I was giving it to him without knowing if he has it.

20th level sorcerer has 3 9th level spells, the only way to get more is Expanded Spell Knowledge, I think. Hence, unless we assume Xykon has spent a feat on more spells after getting 9th level spells, those three are all that he knows.

[SaintRidley]

Energy drain doesn't get attributes, put get attribute checks, which Damage is (A strength check).


Ability checks are 1d20 + ability modifier. Damage in no way constitutes an ability check.

[Tomada]

Oh, okay. Well I guess if you assume that Team Tarquin has foreknowledge of the conflict (including factoring in Redcloak, who they don't know exists, because Nale was no longer working for Xykon by the time Redcloak even had a name, much less any importance), and every possible advantage, and that Team Evil has every possible disadvantage and no knowledge of the conflict - ignoring, of course, that the one and only time Xykon has had to deal with any actual threat involved (again) Soon, who had the Epic Inside view from above and was incorporeal and invisible until the need arose, then...

...it still wouldn't matter worth a damn, because even if we generously ignore this theoretical extremely lopsided encounter you've dreamed up would be realistically impossible, given that even under these ideal conditions of yours, Xykon has access to so much power at Epic that it wouldn't matter at all. It would be completely in character for Xykon to have Lord of Nightmares, and even assuming that Tarquin has assembled all six of his old companions for this fight (risking control of his entire empire, because for some reason you're convinced he'd risk it, and his life, for no particular gain) and they all were immune to the Worst Nightmare ability, the Larva would _still_ have more than enough resources to destroy an entire 17th-20th level team with the two minutes it would have to do so, including its summoning abilities. Given its defences, there's a strong chance that the six of them combined couldn't do enough damage to it to wound it for five minutes.

And that's just a DC 50 Epic spell. Xykon probably doesn't even have to roll to pass that, given that we know he spends weeks at a time making magic items. Surely he's made a +20 or more Spellcraft item by now. Even +100 wouldn't tax his resources very heavily. Mass Frog could potentially end the entire conflict in one standard action. This is just stuff from the standard Epic spell list too; and we know (via Cloister) that Rich is already willing to dream up custom Epic spells as serves his narrative need. There's literally a hundred ways Xykon could deal with a group of pre-epic characters with no warning at all without even going through half his spell slots. His greatest setback might be spending a couple of rounds deciding exactly how painfully he wants to kill them all. This whole comic is one group of characters planning for this one conflict. They still may not succeed. I understand you've got a massive crush on Tarquin and pals, but that doesn't make them capable of taking on a foe of this stature.

Mind you, this is granting you your best case scenario that they get the drop on Xykon with massive preparation and a pile of buffs. It's also not even including Redcloak, who has Implosion, which is a nightmare in and of itself. It doesn't have a [Death] descriptor, because even though it kills the targets, it's not an actual death effect, so it can't be protected from by Death Ward or anything of the sort. Anyone who doesn't have a high enough Fort save is just going to die. That's just one spell of his - and it lasts for four rounds. He can kill up to four people with bad fort saves. Meaning whomever Tarquin's Rogue and Arcane casters are would probably die before getting to accomplish anything useful. If Xykon didn't turn them all into frogs first. It's also ignoring that Xykon is a lich and even if your fantasy scenario somehow did happen, killing Xykon wouldn't mean a damned thing unless they know about the phylactery and actually have a means of destroying it.

It's difficult to communicate exactly how ridiculously crushed Team Tarquin would end up. It took 26 nations to band together and stop Tarquin's army. 50 might not be enough to stop Xykon. At the end of the day, Tarquin was a guy with an axe, with a lot of other guys who had axes, and maybe a couple of casters, but largely a bunch of people who hit other people with pointy things. That's not going to stand up to stuff an epic spellcaster can do, like rip causality a new one, toy with the fabric of time, create eidolons and time duplicates and all kinds of other crazy ridiculous stuff. I wasn't kidding when I said he was near demigod power.

You're using too much knowledge we don't have.

You're assuming Xykon knows every Epic Spell on the Book, which is not feasible. Epic Spells are rare and hard to obtain, even for Epic characters (impossible to lower level one).

In an Epic campaign I was playing, each Epic Spell Caster managed to learn 1 new spell after the free one you get with the feat (and that free one needed to be one of the weakests), and that was with level 27 characters.

According to the Geekery we know 3 of Xykons Epic Spells. Assume he knows ONE maybe TWO more. His Epic Spells known are relatively low-DC, it is a bit far-fetched that he know something so massively more powerful than is shown.

Even the Dream Larva, which is well within the power showed by Xykon wouldn't be THAT menacing. It's best ability is countered and nullified by Mass Death Ward, which they should have up at all times if they remotely know what they are up against.

That and Xykon still has to deal with the mundane task of casting stuff. For all we saw, Tarquin probably has some mage-slayer type of feat, on top of knowing exotic grapple techniques. This seriously messes up casters (even Epic ones). Readied actions against spell casting too, power attacking a caster can mean a seriously ridiculous Concentration DC.

You're taking it optimizing Xykon, IF we are going to use stuff we don't know as optimized as we can, we should do so for both teams, not only TE or TT. Or just assume what we DO know and run with it (it was what I attempted, and it was not pretty for TE, because we actually don't know much).


TL:DR
Don't assume optimization for just one side or simply use what we know.
Even then, what we know is too little and can't be used reliably.

[FlawedParadigm]

You're using too much knowledge we don't have.

You're assuming Xykon knows every Epic Spell on the Book, which is not feasible. Epic Spells are rare and hard to obtain, even for Epic characters (impossible to lower level one).

No, I'm assuming he could know any under 100 DC, because as I said, with his resources, it would not be difficult to make a +100 spellcraft item, not even counting his base Spellcraft. He doesn't need all of them, any one or two would do depending on what the exact situation is. I mean if the worst were to happen and they actually presented a viable threat to both him and his phylactery, all he needs is custom spell that either a) breaks any anti-teleport enchantment on him, and then teleports him somewhere, b) teleports everyone else with X range Y distance away; even with a Will save, it's going to get rid of at least a couple of them, or c) a spell to send his phylactery anywhere else - which probably wouldn't even need to be Epic, just a custom researched "Teleport Any Object" spell or something.


In an Epic campaign I was playing, each Epic Spell Caster managed to learn 1 new spell after the free one you get with the feat (and that free one needed to be one of the weakests), and that was with level 27 characters.

According to the Geekery we know 3 of Xykons Epic Spells. Assume he knows ONE maybe TWO more. His Epic Spells known are relatively low-DC, it is a bit far-fetched that he know something so massively more powerful than is shown.

Now it's been a few years since I looked, and I don't know if it was ever boiled down further, but last I looked, unless there was a massive XP cost or something, the Cloister effect would have run at 90+ DC. So either there's some large mitigating factor we don't know about, or Rich was doing his famous "not worrying that much about the rules" thing. Which is also perfectly viable here. Xykon has any spell Rich needs him to have to tell the story he wants to tell. I find the idea that Rich is intending to write a throwdown between Tarquin's old team and Xykon to be pretty unlikely anyhow.


Even the Dream Larva, which is well within the power showed by Xykon wouldn't be THAT menacing. It's best ability is countered and nullified by Mass Death Ward, which they should have up at all times if they remotely know what they are up against.

"Redcloak, Greater Dispel those people with about the same caster level as you."
"Okay."
"Dream Larva."

Even if that doesn't work out, as I said, the Larva itself is a pretty big menace to non-Epic characters. The Nightgaunts alone would be enough hassle to handle let alone what it can do itself over the course of two minutes to people who cannot possibly beat its spell resistance or saves (barring powergaming so extreme they'd already rule the entire continent by force alone), DR none of them is likely to have any means to bypass, and healing 30hp/round by two different means. Even if they can somehow handle all that, this is leaving Redcloak out of the picture entirely, who has a spell they can't ward against (Protection from Spells is their best bet) which will kill one person per round, provided Redcloak can figure out who the low-fort people are.


That and Xykon still has to deal with the mundane task of casting stuff. For all we saw, Tarquin probably has some mage-slayer type of feat, on top of knowing exotic grapple techniques. This seriously messes up casters (even Epic ones). Readied actions against spell casting too, power attacking a caster can mean a seriously ridiculous Concentration DC.

All of Xykon's serious fights have been airborne. Unless Tarquin has some access to some kind of enhanced-speed flight spell, he's going to have a Hell of a time getting in range of grappling Xykon. Also, we know from experience that Xykon's response to that is a point blank Meteor Swarm he's immune to. If you're wanting to mention Energy Immunity at this time, we're now getting into the territory of Tarquin getting the drop on Xykon with several rounds of prepping buff spells first as well. Given the number of anti-scrying wards Xykon keeps on his phylactery, imagine what he has on himself. He's still never been outside of the range of the Cloister effect, so he's got that going for him, and even before he had that (between the time he killed Fyron and before he settled into Dorukan's Dungeon and got a hold of Cloister in the first place), Eugene could never find him, who was a high level caster and presumably had access to high level divinations. In other words, we know Xykon has spent decades being constantly off the radar of scrying effects. I have a lot of trouble figuring how Tarquin's going to get the drop on Xykon like that. Eugene had to visit a near-omnisicient (in regards to answering specific questions, anyhow) Oracle to learn anything about Xykon at all.


You're taking it optimizing Xykon, IF we are going to use stuff we don't know as optimized as we can, we should do so for both teams, not only TE or TT. Or just assume what we DO know and run with it (it was what I attempted, and it was not pretty for TE, because we actually don't know much).


TL:DR
Don't assume optimization for just one side or simply use what we know.
Even then, what we know is too little and can't be used reliably.

No, as I've demonstrated, I'm working within the bounds of resources Xykon is known or can be expected to have. Ignoring whatever riches he may have accumulated over his life and unlife, he took over the capital of a country which according to Elan's bardic knowledge check had a great economy, and with such haste that they only had a day's warning of his coming - hardly time enough to have emptied the royal treasury, and not enough time for the Azurites to have carted it off elsewhere. At the very least we can assume Xykon has access to several hundred thousand gold, and he spent three months on his tailbone in Azure City, with the explicit mention that he needed to find time to do things other than just craft magic items, so presumably he was spending quite a bit of time of AC's occupation doing just that.



Now what I will tell you, against my own position, is that Xykon's greatest enemy is Xykon. He is the biggest threat to himself; he is supremely confident in everything he does, because he has 80-90 years of experience that almost nothing is a threat to him. If Xykon were the sort to make plans, he'd probably be unstoppable at this point. We have no proof there's even other epic level casters alive right now (of course surely there are a few, but they haven't been introduced directly in the plot yet, barring the possibility that Aandarius might be Epic) and even if there are, they may have no part in the story.

But Xykon doesn't make plans, and it bites him often - heck, he joined with Redcloak in SoD basically because he couldn't think up any new evil to do on his own. He rushed into Azure City with no research at all, and almost got dusted for it. He flew right into Roy's sword range under the specific assumption Roy couldn't do anything to hurt him - you can tell, because he was surprised when he got hurt. He thinks he's invincible, and he generally has a right to feel that way; liches are sort of known for being pains. I mean, people have been trying to kill him and failing for as long or longer than you or I are even likely to live. Think about surviving all those attempts in that span of time and think how cocky it might make you.

Between arrogance, a lack of planning, and a brute force solution to everything, Xykon's going to ultimately end up being at least significantly responsible for his own fall, if it happens at all (and it probably will, but I'm open to the possibility it might not.) But it's not going to be Tarquin's old adventuring buddies to do it.

To be narratively satisfying, it either has to be the Order, for whom this is the driving goal, The Snarl, for Xykon to be demolished by his own hubris for tinkering with forces he only thought he understood, or Redcloak, to be overturned by someone he specifically thinks of as his powerless bitch. Tarquin simply doesn't have the right to win from a writer's perspective.

[FlawedParadigm]

If scry-and-die is valid, that still sounds weirdly non-Xykonish. Maybe because I can't really imagine his possessing spells that don't massively aid in hurting people, and I have no idea if he actually has any teleportation spells of his own.

Yes, you do in fact know exactly that. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) He's also mentioned that they're teleporting to Girard's Gate as soon as he's finished doing whatever he's doing right now (the original plan was "two rounds after finding the phylactery.")

Yes, most of his spell list is either disabling or killing people. He has Redcloak for most anything else he might need, but he still has the basic utility spells like Overland Flight and Greater Teleport. He also has Contingency, which can be a rat bastard to get around dealing with. He also has at least five spells we don't know, just on the part of that paper we can see, plus the possibility of any double digit DC Epic spell, either existing or custom. He's been Epic for at least a decade or two, his resources are truly astounding - which is a point I was trying to get across to the entire thread, not just you.

Don't take it personally, I was addressing basically anyone who has the illusion that Tarquin holds the merest sliver of a chance of being a significant threat to Xykon. Tarquin's cool, but he's maybe half Xykon's age, and he's not a spellcaster. Yes, Rich works hard to enforce melee characters are much more equal to spellcasters in OotS, but they still can't pull off things like re-arranging the time stream, cloning themselves, or having Epic monsters do their fighting for them. Consider that the Order has crossed Xykon twice, the first of which was a decisive, if plot-induced victory, and even then he hasn't considered them enough of a threat to even bother learning a single one of their names.

Xykon is Serious Business®.

[Tomada]

<<<<<SNIPTY SNIP!>>>>>

But Xykon doesn't make plans, and it bites him often - heck, he joined with Redcloak in SoD basically because he couldn't think up any new evil to do on his own. He rushed into Azure City with no research at all, and almost got dusted for it. He flew right into Roy's sword range under the specific assumption Roy couldn't do anything to hurt him - you can tell, because he was surprised when he got hurt. He thinks he's invincible, and he generally has a right to feel that way; liches are sort of known for being pains. I mean, people have been trying to kill him and failing for as long or longer than you or I are even likely to live. Think about surviving all those attempts in that span of time and think how cocky it might make you.

Between arrogance, a lack of planning, and a brute force solution to everything, Xykon's going to ultimately end up being at least significantly responsible for his own fall, if it happens at all (and it probably will, but I'm open to the possibility it might not.) But it's not going to be Tarquin's old adventuring buddies to do it.

To be narratively satisfying, it either has to be the Order, for whom this is the driving goal, The Snarl, for Xykon to be demolished by his own hubris for tinkering with forces he only thought he understood, or Redcloak, to be overturned by someone he specifically thinks of as his powerless bitch. Tarquin simply doesn't have the right to win from a writer's perspective.

And this is where we agree.

I THINK there may be a small chance Tarquin (possibly Malack and Durkon) are involved in repelling Xykon/destroying this Gate/moving the plot to the next gate, but full on assault on Xykon? No even remotely likely.

And Xykon really IS his own worst enemy. He is arrogant and reckless. FAR from optimized (as far as we know), as far too specialized in necromancy + evocation (Fire), both of which are some of the most common spells and have some of the most accessible counters.



And about our exercize, I was just number crunshing. Never crossed my mind to actually happen anything like that.


And about the dream larva, it is as likely to try to kill Red Cloak as it is to kill TT, so they just need to dodge it for 20 turns or make RC look like he is a better target. Heck, the spell explicitly states that the Dream Larva is a Jackass and may try to leave the caster in a pretty damn hard spot when the spell ends.
And besides, we are taking different approaches, you're using what is likely to be true and I am using what we absolutely know to be true. Different approaches and different results.

[Raineh Daze]

Yes, you do in fact know exactly that. He's also mentioned that they're teleporting to Girard's Gate as soon as he's finished doing whatever he's doing right now (the original plan was "two rounds after finding the phylactery.")

Well, I didn't know, otherwise I wouldn't have been questioning that, would I? :smalltongue:

Still seems too cunning for something so completely unsadistic, really. All his ingenuity seems to go into creative ways to torment people. :smallconfused:

[FlawedParadigm]

And about the dream larva, it is as likely to try to kill Red Cloak as it is to kill TT, so they just need to dodge it for 20 turns or make RC look like he is a better target. Heck, the spell explicitly states that the Dream Larva is a Jackass and may try to leave the caster in a pretty damn hard spot when the spell ends.
And besides, we are taking different approaches, you're using what is likely to be true and I am using what we absolutely know to be true. Different approaches and different results.

Yeah, but I accounted for that, too - if the Dream Larva were to be Xykon's strategy, it can stand on its own. There's two basic scenarios here; 1) Xykon is waylaid with Redcloak present or 2) without Redcloak. Unless someone on the opposing side (be it the Order, Tarquin, or anyone else) has an Epic weapon and can survive anything the Larva can dish out, they're still only accomplishing survival. Xykon is not damaged by anything that happens to the Larva.

If 2) Redcloak is not with him, it may not matter. Again, I'm fairly certain the Larva could handle itself versus either TT or the Order. Maybe not both, even with the Nightgaunts. More math than I care to run through and far too many variables I know of, let alone ones I don't know (what spells any Divine casters or Wizards might choose to prepare, et cetera - Wizards in particular since we don't know what spells they do or don't have in their books.) Worst case scenario, TT + Order team up and survive the Larva for two minutes at whatever cost to their spell slots, hit points totals, or other resources, while Xykon just had a two minute respite and expended a single spell slot.

The other thing is that Xykon is in far less danger of being left by the Larva in a position he can't get himself out of. Unless his phylactery is lost or in danger of destruction, the worst the Larva could do is run him into some vault he could be sealed in, perhaps some potent anti-magic vault. Or perhaps a Rift he can merrily jump into. This is a pretty big supposition, since we're working on the idea that Xykon is being surprised. Unless this is at a Rift location, neither of these scenarios is likely.

If 1) Redcloak is with him, and RC is an unholy terror in his own right, as Rich pointed out with the Resistance's hideout scene for anyone unfamiliar with just how powerful a Cleric of that level is. All that was arranged with his own personal resources, one polymorphed spy, and a third or less of his spell slots. Still, if there was an Order + TT team up, then RC would almost certainly die. He can't protect himself against THAT many high level people at once, and there is the Larva to consider. It might even kill RC first.

Thing is, though? Even though he doesn't know it, losing RC would ultimately lose Xykon absolutely nothing. We already know in the long run that The Plan does not in any way benefit Xykon, so losing Redcloak and access to The Plan would not diminish him in any way. Even if Xykon didn't know this, he would consider his own survival paramount anyhow. Worst case scenario, he's out one evil scheme, impressive a scheme though it may be. He's immortal, and literally has all the time in the world to come up with something else to do.

That's the frightening thing; the Larva is a fearsome opponent in its own right, and the spell is low enough DC a 21st level caster could reliably make the check with only a modest boost to their Spellcraft. Worse, it's exactly the kind of spell Xykon would know - he gives not a lone damn about the lives of his minions, which has been demonstrated many times, and between being without any empathy and being a lich, he almost completely nullifies any potential downside to Lord of Nightmares. It is a spell almost custom made for him, and well within his grasp.

Having thought this through so thoroughly, I'll actually be kind of surprised if we don't see this at some point now. Again, this is only a single spell slot of what Xykon has at his disposal. In the words of the Oracle; dude is frickin' scary.

[Mr.Rictus]

If by 'undeniably beat' Xykon you mean, 'didn't do a single HP of damage while Xykon didn't use a single high-level spell because he was screwing with them, before exploiting a one-of-a-kind dungeon trap to get rid of him temporarily', then yes, they 'won'.

I do, actually. It's a silly way to win, but hey, if it works, it works. No one said that a victory doesn't count because it's 'fair'. And of all people, Tarquin isn't the type to play fair.

[bguy]

Yeah, but I accounted for that, too - if the Dream Larva were to be Xykon's strategy, it can stand on its own.

If Xykon had access to Lord of Nightmares why have we never seen him use it in combat? He's not exactly the type to hold his big spells back after all, and certainly it would have been useful in his fights against Darth V, Soon, and Durukan. (All of which Xykon did lose or could have easily lost.)

It also doesn't really seem like a spell that's Xykon's style. He enjoys killing too much to be happy with a spell that effectively sub-contracts the killing out (especially since he wouldn't even get to watch the killing take place.)

[Olinser]

If Xykon had access to Lord of Nightmares why have we never seen him use it in combat? He's not exactly the type to hold his big spells back after all, and certainly it would have been useful in his fights against Darth V, Soon, and Durukan. (All of which Xykon did lose or could have easily lost.)

It also doesn't really seem like a spell that's Xykon's style. He enjoys killing too much to be happy with a spell that effectively sub-contracts the killing out (especially since he wouldn't even get to watch the killing take place.)

Uh, because he's Xykon, and gets entertainment from watching people suffer?

He was ready to use the MiTD against the OOTS the first time for the entertainment - and he enjoys watching proxies fight for him in general with the hobgoblins, Redcloak v Miko, O-Chul v whatever he could find, etc.

As for why he hasn't used it - think about it - what situation would he have used it in?

Initial fight with OOTS - pfaw, he's been playing with them since they got in the Dungeon, wheres the fun in ending it fast? Plus, he's already got the MiTD to play with them! He didn't even use a Meteor Swarm or an Energy Drain (his signature spells) in that fight, why would he go straight to an Epic spell?
Assault on Azure City - too much fun watching hobgoblins die, Xykon didn't even pay attention to the greater fight, and the Dream Larva really wouldn't be a help against the ghosts
Xykon v Darth V - Darth V wanted to beat Xykon down to prove he was more powerful. Xykon was more than willing to oblige - but Xykon seems the sort to have taken that as a personal challenge, using a Summon spell would admit that he PERSONALLY doesn't have the power to take V.

[bguy]

Uh, because he's Xykon, and gets entertainment from watching people suffer?

That's exactly why Xykon wouldn't have the Lord of Nightmares spell. It suppresses the caster's awareness while it's in effect, which means he wouldn't get to watch anyone suffer. Do you really think Xykon would be happy just casting a spell, and then waking up 2 minutes later to see that everyone is dead?


He was ready to use the MiTD against the OOTS the first time for the entertainment - and he enjoys watching proxies fight for him in general with the hobgoblins, Redcloak v Miko, O-Chul v whatever he could find, etc.

Absolutely, but again in those cases he got to at least watch the fight. He wouldn't get to do that with Lord of Nightmares.


Assault on Azure City - too much fun watching hobgoblins die, Xykon didn't even pay attention to the greater fight, and the Dream Larva really wouldn't be a help against the ghosts.

Do you really think Xykon wouldn't know that it wouldn't help against ghosts? It was a major plot point in that battle that he didn't know what could effect ghosts.


Xykon v Darth V - Darth V wanted to beat Xykon down to prove he was more powerful. Xykon was more than willing to oblige - but Xykon seems the sort to have taken that as a personal challenge, using a Summon spell would admit that he PERSONALLY doesn't have the power to take V.

If that's what motivated Xykon not to bring out the big gun against V then wouldn't he have the same motivation against Tarquin? Tarquin may not be challenging Xykon's rep as a spell caster, but he is challenging Xykon's position as the story's Big Bad. I would think Xykon would want to deal with that kind of challenge personally.

Also, there are at least 2 other fights that Xykon has been in where such a spell would have been useful. Spoilers for Start of Darkness and Ain't No Cure for the Paladin Blues.

And besides what about the Xykon-Durukan fight? It certainly would have been useful for him there. As it was he very nearly lost that fight.

There's also his fight against the silver dragon in the Bonus Strips to the second book. Another fight that Xykon pretty decisively lost.

If he really had an epic attack spell, I think he would have used it in both of those fights.

[FlawedParadigm]

Thing is though, all the fights he even came close to "losing" (and only versus Soon was there any chance of his actual destruction - which did make Xykon panic when he found out) were because each and every time he assumed his opponent was beneath him and he wasn't fighting full out. As for the SoD fight, I'm not sure why you think he was close to losing it. 1) He even specifically said after he was never in any real danger and 2) people came here on the boards complaining about what a one-sided curb stomp it was.

I will admit that barring something like an entire army coming down on him, Xykon wouldn't open with Lord of Nightmares even if he did/does have it. For one, it would, as it has been said, lessen the enjoyment of his own killing. Two, it would wound his pride to rely on something like that, I think. We've seen Xykon eager enough to use minions, but I don't recall ever seeing him do summons. That's a Redcloak thing.

But against something like a TT + Order team up, or even if the Order becomes an actual danger to him (and he knows it), or even TT by themselves if they were getting the upper hand...he'd unleash it.

He may or may not have it. He may be holding it in reserve for unlife-or-death emergency, like MitD. I'm just saying we know he can make that Spellcraft check, he'd have the resources to learn the spell, he's mostly immune to a large part of the drawbacks that give that spell its low DC, and going by its CR, it's as big or bigger a threat than Xykon himself. That thing is eleven levels deep into Epic.

I could see Rich simply not wanting him to have it, because that's a terrifying obstacle to overcome and from what we've seen of the Order, even with TT's help (again, assuming they ever team up - possible, but I don't know how likely), it might be difficult to write any believable way of them achieving victory over both that and Xykon without a lot of things/advantages the Order doesn't currently have, and no evidence that TT might have (albeit between the six of them, they have the resources of three major nations indirectly at their disposal, although I don't know if their economies are anywhere near as well-off as AC's was.)

...But still, having seen how well that spell fits Xykon (little need to worry about what the Larva does with his body in the last couple of rounds, no allies whose lives he actually cares about to worry about it killing) I do kind of want to see him rip that out. A DC 43 Will save would give a lot of pre-Epic *dragons* a hard time.

[Rig]

Speaking of Dragons? It goes without saying that we have not come close to seeing the last of them, but I'd like to know about this silver dragon fight, partly out of curiosity and partly as a gauge. They certainly have Tiamet's attention, and cavalry that thinks it can handwave any opposition and actually has a decent chance too, alongside Xykon getting in the way (though I'll admit if they're sufficiently cruel he might leave them too it if he can watch, which i doubt) sounds so very in character.

[Olinser]

Speaking of Dragons? It goes without saying that we have not come close to seeing the last of them, but I'd like to know about this silver dragon fight, partly out of curiosity and partly as a gauge. They certainly have Tiamet's attention, and cavalry that thinks it can handwave any opposition and actually has a decent chance too, alongside Xykon getting in the way (though I'll admit if they're sufficiently cruel he might leave them too it if he can watch, which i doubt) sounds so very in character.

It was bonus material in the 2nd book - it is both the 'Final Boss' of Xykon's old tower, and the source of his zombie dragon.

[Rig]

Can you tell me why he lost, without being too spoilery?

[Olinser]

Can you tell me why he lost, without being too spoilery?

Because he was being Xykon and not taking the fight seriously.

[Zweisteine]

As a general response to the thread, and oto the whole chatter about why Xykon/Tarquin would win, I'll say that even if Tarquin were to live, Xykon and Redcloak would likely not die. Xykon is a lich, and I'd say it's probably safe to assume Redcloak isn't carrying the phylactery any more (I think...), because he could be discovered. Redcloak probably has Word of Recall prepared, which he can use if the going gets rough.

Actually, the evidence that Tarquin has a chance is pretty high. Malack has an ECL of at least 20, and we can probably assume that the other are close to the same (assuming Tarquin's party, not Nale's). That should be a lot more high-level spells than Redcloak and Xykon get...

I don't have time to type more...


@V Oops... I forgot that Harm was only level six. I had confused it with Blasphemy for some reason...
Hmmm... At least it doesn't break my argument.

[SaintRidley]

Actually, the evidence that Tarquin has a chance is pretty high. Malack has an ECL of at least 21 (he cast Harm, didn't he?), and we can probably assume that the other are close to the same (assuming Tarquin's party, not Nale's). That should be a lot more high-level spells than Redcloak and Xykon get...

I don't have time to type more...

The reason Malack's ECL is estimated to be so high has little to do with the ability to cast Harm, which is only a 6th level spell. It's all to do with level adjustment from being a vampire (and a Lizardfolk, if not some race with higher racial hit dice and level adjustment than the 1/+1 Lizardfolk has). In terms of actual cleric levels, Malack is pegged at level 11.

A level 11 cleric, even with vampire bonuses, does not have much chance against a level 17 cleric.

[JackRose]

Setting aside mechanical arguments, let me present a narrative argument. Xykon is the main villain. Tarquin is not. Therefore, Xykon will beat Tarquin. Tarquin and his team may be able to contribute to Xykon's defeat as allies of the Order of the Stick in a big climactic battle, but this seems fairly unlikely given that they haven't thus far been positioned with any sort of real moral ambiguity.

[FlawedParadigm]

The reason Malack's ECL is estimated to be so high has little to do with the ability to cast Harm, which is only a 6th level spell. It's all to do with level adjustment from being a vampire (and a Lizardfolk, if not some race with higher racial hit dice and level adjustment than the 1/+1 Lizardfolk has). In terms of actual cleric levels, Malack is pegged at level 11.

A level 11 cleric, even with vampire bonuses, does not have much chance against a level 17 cleric.

Actually, I'm pretty sure in a Cleric-on-Cleric battle, being a vampire is a gigantic liability. If they were both level 17 Clerics, maybe not so much, but with one being 5-6 levels lower...(Malack could be 12th.)

[Raineh Daze]

Actually, I'm pretty sure in a Cleric-on-Cleric battle, being a vampire is a gigantic liability. If they were both level 17 Clerics, maybe not so much, but with one being 5-6 levels lower...(Malack could be 12th.)

More against a Good cleric than an Evil one. Spontaneously cast healing spells = bad for a vampire. Now, Rebuking/Turning would be another problem, but vampires get a bonus against that, and Malack has been shown to be able to use his own rebuking ability to buff himself against it.

So mostly, it's a matter of being a lower level.

[Olinser]

More against a Good cleric than an Evil one. Spontaneously cast healing spells = bad for a vampire. Now, Rebuking/Turning would be another problem, but vampires get a bonus against that, and Malack has been shown to be able to use his own rebuking ability to buff himself against it.

So mostly, it's a matter of being a lower level.

But Malack used that ability against Durkon - a cleric 2-3 levels lower than Redcloak. Given that Malack used Bolster Undead rather than an offensive spell of his own, he clearly felt he was in a very real danger of Durkon turning him.

With a decent roll Redcloak stands a very real chance of turning Malack even through his bolster.

[SaintRidley]

Additionally, now that he has 9th level spells, Redcloak has access to a spell he may want to have handy for reasons other than Malack. Mass Heal. 170 HP healing for himself and 170 damage (down to a minimum of 1 HP) against any Undead he happens to target on top of that. Mass Heal is a great insurance policy in the event that he feels Xykon needs to be taken out, and we know Redcloak is positioning himself to do that if necessary. And it's just as useful against a vampire, should Redcloak find himself in that situation.


As for Turn Resistance, Olinser makes a good point. Durkon, a level 15+ cleric, attempted to Turn Malack and Malack felt it necessary to Bolster himself in order to guarantee overcoming Durkon's Turn attempt. Malack is, minimum, 12 HD + 4 Turn Resistance. That puts him at 16 base HD for Turning purposes, and thus in very real danger of having been turned, without Bolstering. Bolstering gave him an edge, but would not be a guarantee. Redcloak, at level 17, exceeds Malack before Bolstering, so Malack's basically playing catchup. If his roll isn't high enough (and anything less than 4 higher than Redcloak's roll is not high enough, in some cases even 5 higher isn't). If that doesn't happen, Malack belongs to Redcloak, guaranteed.

[quasit]

Also Redcloak got a magic ring from Tsukiko that wards against energy drain-migh be a sort of death ward one- I'm not sure if he's wearing it by now, but it would come in handy in that scenario: Malack slams RC hoping to wipe his highest level spells (thought it's risky to put himself on heal range) to find out he's protected. Mass heal ensues.

[TRH]

What's Redcloak's defense against getting grappled, though? Even if he kept Tsukiko's ring, he'd die from grapple damage sooner or later. And Malack's shapeshifting and other vampiric abilities mean he very well could get the drop on Redcloak under the right circumstances.

[FlawedParadigm]

What's Redcloak's defense against getting grappled, though? Even if he kept Tsukiko's ring, he'd die from grapple damage sooner or later. And Malack's shapeshifting and other vampiric abilities mean he very well could get the drop on Redcloak under the right circumstances.

Worked pretty well in the past. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Word_of_Recall) Normally I might suggest that Redcloak could escape a grapple under his own power, but knowing the relative race modifiers for Goblin and Vampire strength, that's probably admittedly unlikely unless Redcloak has an active Divine Power or something going at the time, and Malack for some reason doesn't.

Of course, that's an escape, not a means of victory. Grappling in the first place would require Malack getting the drop on Redcloak, though. Redcloak has a fair amount of anti-undead spells and class abilities that work well outside melee range. Plus, he's been working with an undead guy for a living for quite some time now, and I wouldn't be surprised if he regularly prepares a few anti-undead spells just in case, as others have pointed out.

[TRH]

Worked pretty well in the past. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Word_of_Recall) Normally I might suggest that Redcloak could escape a grapple under his own power, but knowing the relative race modifiers for Goblin and Vampire strength, that's probably admittedly unlikely unless Redcloak has an active Divine Power or something going at the time, and Malack for some reason doesn't.

Of course, that's an escape, not a means of victory. Grappling in the first place would require Malack getting the drop on Redcloak, though. Redcloak has a fair amount of anti-undead spells and class abilities that work well outside melee range. Plus, he's been working with an undead guy for a living for quite some time now, and I wouldn't be surprised if he regularly prepares a few anti-undead spells just in case, as others have pointed out.

A lot of those are still spells though - can't be used in an actual grapple. None of this is to say that Malack's even particularly likely to win against Redcloak, but it's far from unfathomable - less weird than his choking against Miko was, at least.

[FlawedParadigm]

A lot of those are still spells though - can't be used in an actual grapple. None of this is to say that Malack's even particularly likely to win against Redcloak, but it's far from unfathomable - less weird than his choking against Miko was, at least.

Well, Word of Recall is Verbal only, so unless Malack manages to grapple and gag him at the same time (not unrealistic in the real world, but much less defined rules by RAW) any Divine caster of sufficient level (and foresight to prepare WoR) will always have an out (barring a Silence spell.)

My only point about RC vs. Malack was that Vampire Malack was a lot worse off than non-Vampire Malack would be in that situation. Although since RC has Disintegrate as a Domain spell anyhow, Malack would be risking quite a lot either way. Being turned to ash is bad for one's health, as it happens.

[quasit]

Hmrrrr... freedom of movement also solves the grappling issue, though I don't remember if it has ever been cast on the comic. Can't tell if RC would have any reason to cast it in advance, either. But add this and his high will save and M would have serious trouble dealing with him alone.
On the other hand, we don't know what else might have up in his staff.
Perhaps yet another odd homebrew stored spell that somehow saves the day :smalltongue:

[FlawedParadigm]

Hmrrrr... freedom of movement also solves the grappling issue, though I don't remember if it has ever been cast on the comic. Can't tell if RC would have any reason to cast it in advance, either. But add this and his high will save and M would have serious trouble dealing with him alone.
On the other hand, we don't know what else might have up in his staff.
Perhaps yet another odd homebrew stored spell that somehow saves the day :smalltongue:

Durkon cast FoM on Roy right before Roy leapt onto the Zombie Dragon at Azure City. To counter Xykon's paralysis touch, I figure.

[quasit]

Thanks!
So ok the spell exists :smallbiggrin:
Also regarding the "crushing him to death in a grapple" plan, that would take a bunch of rounds being solely dedicated to that, and with meteor swarms and stuff happening around could turn easily on a "taking you with me" (unwillingly).

[Kish]

Actually...

It occurs to me that, because of the whole subplot of Malack trying and failing to dispel Durkon's Mass Death Ward before dismissing it, we now know that Malack is very unlikely to be able to dispel a Death Ward from Redcloak. Or the ring Redcloak took from Tsukiko.

[denthor]

I so want team EVIL to show up and up end this arragant would be ruler of the world.

[TRH]

I so want team EVIL to show up and up end this arragant would be ruler of the world.

Yeah! Arrogant would-be rulers of the world are only good when they're trigger-happy skeletons who don't pay attention to what they're doing. :smallbiggrin:

[JSSheridan]

The difference between Tarquin and the OotS is that the former may realize that Xykon, being a sorcerer and all, is just the muscle of the operation, and that Redcloak, the cleric, is the true brain.

He will then pick his target accordingly.

Roy has tunnel-vision due to his blood oath, and is still miffed about Xykon shattering his sword the first time.

[Kish]

The difference between Tarquin and the OotS is that the former may realize that Xykon, being a sorcerer and all, is just the muscle of the operation, and that Redcloak, the cleric, is the true brain.
I am boggled by the idea that it would reflect well on Tarquin if he assumed based on something as superficial as class that Redcloak must be the true brain of Xykon's group and Xykon is only muscle.

[Olinser]

I am boggled by the idea that it would reflect well on Tarquin if he assumed based on something as superficial as class that Redcloak must be the true brain of Xykon's group and Xykon is only muscle.

He already assumes based on class and the fact that he is his son that Elan is significantly more competent than he actually is.

[FlawedParadigm]

He already assumes based on class and the fact that he is his son that Elan is significantly more competent than he actually is.

Ego projection, because Tarquin believes if he were the son of Tarquin the Mighty and had the full narrative cognizance of a bard instead of just 80% or so, that he'd rule the world. So obviously he figures that since Elan has those resources but is not interested in conquering the world, he must be the one to save it.

[Kish]

He already assumes based on class and the fact that he is his son that Elan is significantly more competent than he actually is.

Correction.

And it reflects badly on Tarquin that he makes that assumption. (I don't actually have a problem with "Tarquin will stupidly assume that the cleric, not the sorcerer, must be in charge because he's a cleric and not a sorcerer"--well, I do, because of Tarquin being the leader of a group which has a cleric; does Tarquin think of himself as a puppet who dangles from Malack's strings then? But mainly, I have a problem with, "Tarquin will brilliantly divine that Redcloak is actually in charge based on Redcloak being a cleric and Xykon being a mere sorcerer!")

[Raineh Daze]

There are other reasons to assume Xykon is the brawn, though. For instance: convoluted world spanning plan... not likely to come from a lich sorcerer whose modus operandi is 'more power'. Depends how much he knows or can easily find out.

[Amphiox]

The possibility of Tarquin somehow summoning his full old adventuring team to help in a potential battle has been raised, but I actually think it is something Tarquin probably won't do.

Or rather, he might summon two of them, but not all four.

I think that they might have a standing agreement not to ever all be in the same place together, as 1) being seen together raises the risk of their overall plotting being exposed, and 2) never being all together in one area protects against the possibility of TPK.

The way I see it, no matter what potential disasters might befall one pair, the other members of their party are available to recover them and resurrect them, and so they will always try to avoid committing all six members to the same battle. Each pair may even carry some kind of crafted magical item that could help with emergencies of this kind, like say an item that can be used to teleport them (or their bodies) to one of their partners' locations in the event of death or near-death.

[Erelamar]

TT is going to win, because it really is the only narrative that makes sense in the current circumstances. The OotS is in no shape to stop Xykon from getting this gate, and we know there will be an ultimate show down between them and TE at the next gate, because it is the last one. So it is pointless for Rich to write the same fight two times in a row. And for us to get to that next gate, Xykon must be stopped in some manner from getting this gate, and at present that manner seems likely to be TT, probably while the OotS settles things with LG and Durkula, maybe with a little left-field action from the Imp and an IFCC-possessed V.

The only thing that might throw a glitch into that line of thinking is the MitD, who, by-the-way, Tarquin will be able to see immediately with his Ring of True Seeing, which is one of the reasons I think we might finally see it ourselves. And this is a good time to show it off because really you don't want its first and last appearance to be in the same instance. You want it to crush something the first time it actually fights. This wouldn't be a bad time to display its power, so it becomes a hovering threat during the last gate arc.

[Imgran]

He already assumes based on class and the fact that he is his son that Elan is significantly more competent than he actually is.

That's the weird thing about Elan though. He IS more competent than he actually is.

He's quick on his feet, a spellcaster of growing ability, and he's charismatic and lucky. Left to his own devices and given his head, he's frequently been enormously effective. It's just that in the party, he always defers to Roy, who has no clue how to use his talents effectively and takes a frankly unfairly dim view of Elan, and is letting past annoyingness cloud his mind to Elan's present usefulness.

It's always been an area where all of Vaarsuvius, Durkon and Haley saw more clearly than Roy did and any or all of the three would probably make his talents more central to what the team happens to be doing. He's kind of... vestigal in the party right now, and Roy is accidentally but very firmly keeping him there.

The problem with Elan is that he likes Roy, and doesn't really want to stand up to him as a result. Elan is easygoing, he likes to get along with people, to the point that he frequently tries much too hard and can be coaxed into making decisions he would never make in a thousand years on his own. That, and not his supposed stupidity (I think Elan has proven to my satisfaction that while he is no Rhodes scholar, he is NOT particularly unintelligent) is his real character flaw.

Right now he's the party's only spellcaster and healer, and I actually expect that to work out for them -- IF he can stand up to Roy and get him to recognize the very real growth Elan has undergone over the last several arcs.

The irony of the Order of the Stick is the very real possibility that they would be more effective right now if Elan WERE leading. At least his talents would be allowed to occasionally come into play. Right now Roy is standing obstinately in the way of letting that happen.

[Mr.Rictus]

Correction.

And it reflects badly on Tarquin that he makes that assumption.

Maybe a little badly, but frankly, what sort of father doesn't hope his son would do great? And really, it's not a entirely bad or unfounded supposition anyway.

Elan is a pretty good level bard traveling with a fairly imposing group that routed Nale a few times and is on a quest to save the world. Not exactly screaming "incompetance" here. And frankly, when it becomes necessary, Elan can actually be fairly competent. He beat Nale on his lonesome, conned an enemy into helping him, captured a story-arc villain (Kubota)...

So it's a valid hypothesis, and not that far off-mark, if you don't take into account Elan's frequent childlike tendencies.

[Kish]

Maybe a little badly, but frankly, what sort of father doesn't hope his son would do great? And really, it's not a entirely bad or unfounded supposition anyway.[...]
Clarification: Olinser might be referring to Tarquin's references to "an adventurer of Elan's caliber," but I am referring to Tarquin's immediate, automatic assumption that Elan is the leader of his group.

[Tragak]

The problem with Elan is that he likes Roy, and doesn't really want to stand up to him as a result. Elan is easygoing, he likes to get along with people, to the point that he frequently tries much too hard and can be coaxed into making decisions he would never make in a thousand years on his own. That, and not his supposed stupidity (I think Elan has proven to my satisfaction that while he is no Rhodes scholar, he is NOT particularly unintelligent) is his real character flaw.

Right now he's the party's only spellcaster and healer, and I actually expect that to work out for them -- IF he can stand up to Roy and get him to recognize the very real growth Elan has undergone over the last several arcs. Maybe Haley is going to have to be the one to stand up for him to Roy? At first at least?

[Silverionmox]

Maybe a little badly, but frankly, what sort of father doesn't hope his son would do great? And really, it's not a entirely bad or unfounded supposition anyway.

Elan is a pretty good level bard traveling with a fairly imposing group that routed Nale a few times and is on a quest to save the world. Not exactly screaming "incompetance" here. And frankly, when it becomes necessary, Elan can actually be fairly competent. He beat Nale on his lonesome, conned an enemy into helping him, captured a story-arc villain (Kubota)...

So it's a valid hypothesis, and not that far off-mark, if you don't take into account Elan's frequent childlike tendencies.Elan has gotten the Oots into trouble more than once. He also wasn't able to use illusions effectively without someone holding his hands, etc. He managed to con Thog. That's not really that impressive. The things he did competently were out of sight of Roy, so you can't really blame him.

Not that Roy doesn't need to learn to rely on other party members besides Durkon. He'll do so pretty soon, at any rate.

[Imgran]

Maybe Haley is going to have to be the one to stand up for him to Roy? At first at least?

No, this is going to be something Elan's going to have to do himself. Haley's role would be to point out how he's being sidelined and possibly give Elan a firm nudge in the right direction.

I'm not the Giant, but I potentially see it coming in the next few strips actually. He tried during Roy's big rant in the last strip but Roy utterly overrode him. Elan is showing subtle signs that he's growing increasingly frustrated with being continuously sidelined by Roy, and now he's the only healer so he finally has some leverage to do something about it. I expect one of the next few strips to either be Elan standing up to Roy, or at least a mention somewhere about why he isn't.

It's going to take something pretty drastic to get Elan to really stand up to Roy, but the pot is steaming and starting to boil, and everyone's emotions are a little raw right now. If it's going to happen, it may happen soonish.

[TRH]

No, this is going to be something Elan's going to have to do himself. Haley's role would be to point out how he's being sidelined and possibly give Elan a firm nudge in the right direction.

I'm not the Giant, but I potentially see it coming in the next few strips actually. He tried during Roy's big rant in the last strip but Roy utterly overrode him. Elan is showing subtle signs that he's growing increasingly frustrated with being continuously sidelined by Roy, and now he's the only healer so he finally has some leverage to do something about it. I expect one of the next few strips to either be Elan standing up to Roy, or at least a mention somewhere about why he isn't.

It's going to take something pretty drastic to get Elan to really stand up to Roy, but the pot is steaming and starting to boil, and everyone's emotions are a little raw right now. If it's going to happen, it may happen soonish.

Interesting idea. If O-chul's description of Girard's defenses was accurate, then there's going to be a series of riddles at some point. Maybe Elan's genre savvy will allow him to solve some of them that Roy and Haley can't. That might be a step in the right direction.

[JackRose]

Interesting idea. If O-chul's description of Girard's defenses was accurate, then there's going to be a series of riddles at some point. Maybe Elan's genre savvy will allow him to solve some of them that Roy and Haley can't. That might be a step in the right direction.

Why would you think O-chul's description was right, though?

[homeosapiens]

Do you think last panel of 882 might mean TT is coming?

[Bird]

No matter how many times I open this thread, I always think it's going to be about Team Evil versus the Teen Titans.

Starbolts fired through meteor swarms. The Crimson Mantle and the Blue Beetle. Beast Boy turning into a Monster in the Darkness.

[Carry2]

Who's Miron? There's Malack, a cleric, and Zz'dtri, a level 15ish wizard.

Also, his "six person team" included his accountant. I wouldn't call that "prepared" in any way, shape, or form.
Never underestimate the brain of a bureaucrat (http://www.metatube.com/en/videos/8480/Futurama-Battle-Clip/).

Seriously, logistics is like, super important.

[Bulldog Psion]

When the epic-level lich comes hurtling in like a thunderbolt with Redcloak in tow, I'm not sure if it will be really apparent who's the brains and who's the brawn. Just that there's suddenly a lot of incoming magic of extremely high level to deal with -- or rather, not deal with, but die in. :smallsmile:

[homeosapiens]

And of course yet again nobody answers.

[TRH]

And of course yet again nobody answers.

Gee, that couldn't possibly be an indication that we're done with this thread, now could it?

[Forikroder]

I think that Tarquin always comes prepared. What do i mean by that? He got 6 people team, which includes a arcane spellcaster Miron - this means that they all have some security measure items that can teleport them to one another and probably give a fast warning where they need to come.

If Xykon is to come for the gate any second now, he will not have easy task - he will face full about 20 lv Team Tarquin + vampire Durkon+ LG leftovers, and in the epickness of this confrontation the gate will go boom due to our heroes destroying it or sth.

Your thoughts on this?

Tarquin and co are almost certainly below level 20

[Olinser]

Gee, that couldn't possibly be an indication that we're done with this thread, now could it?

Nonsense, this is clearly a personal attack directed at Homeosapiens.

THIS INTOLERABLE AFFRONT WILL NOT BE BORNE!!

[TRH]

Nonsense, this is clearly a personal attack directed at Homeosapiens.

THIS INTOLERABLE AFFRONT WILL NOT BE BORNE!!

I dunno, I'm pretty cool with bearing it. If you're having a hard time I could recommend some chill pills. :smallwink:

[Olinser]

I dunno, I'm pretty cool with bearing it. If you're having a hard time I could recommend some chill pills. :smallwink:

This forum needs a /sarcasm avatar.

I hereby lobby for it to be Shojo puppeteering the wizard.

[Raineh Daze]

Tarquin and co are almost certainly below level 20

"Almost certainly"

What evidence do you have that so strongly pegs them pre-epic? :smallconfused:

[TRH]

This forum needs a /sarcasm avatar.

I hereby lobby for it to be Shojo puppeteering the wizard.

I did get that you were being sarcastic, if that means anything. Which it may not, if you were being sarcastic in this post. :smalltongue:

[FlawedParadigm]

"Almost certainly"

What evidence do you have that so strongly pegs them pre-epic? :smallconfused:

Well, the only even nearly-confirmed epicness we've seen anywhere is 1) Xykon 2) various resources in the afterlife, 3) possibly Soon and/or Aandarius, 4) likely any surviving members of the Order of the Scribble, and 5) probably the IFCC. Of these, only the first two were certified epic.

Of those, two have exhausted their plot relevance, another has not and may never have plot relevance aside from being name dropped once, we're not sure one exists at all, and the last can't directly intervene in mortal affairs.

So basically, they're pre-epic until proven otherwise, since by current numbers, something like 99.9975% of the world is pre-epic.

(Oh, and maaaaaybe the Silver Dragon that was bonus strip material, but that's neither likely nor relevant.)

[Kish]

So basically, they're pre-epic until proven otherwise, since by current numbers, something like 99.9975% of the world is pre-epic.
Malack's vampire level adjustment puts him into epic levels, unless Rich is ignoring something somewhere.

[FlawedParadigm]

Malack's vampire level adjustment puts him into epic levels, unless Rich is ignoring something somewhere.

Did I miss something? So far as I last checked, he was casting at 11th or 12th, and had +8. That's not quite 21. *Runs to check Geekery to see if Malack did anything to be placed at caster 13+ since two weeks ago.*

[Forikroder]

"Almost certainly"

What evidence do you have that so strongly pegs them pre-epic? :smallconfused:

when have any of them at any point in time displayed anything close to what weve come to expect from epic level characters?


Did I miss something? So far as I last checked, he was casting at 11th or 12th, and had +8. That's not quite 21. *Runs to check Geekery to see if Malack did anything to be placed at caster 13+ since two weeks ago.*

lizardfolk have LA as well

[FlawedParadigm]

lizardfolk have LA as well

Oh, right, that. So I guess if Rich is requiring him to have Craft Staff, he's 21. If he was able to make the staff by divine aid or anything, he could still be 11th as a caster. So 20 or 21.

(Of course this assumes he's a Lizardfolk and not a Yuan-ti Halfblood, but that would put him squarely into epic anyhow.)

Either way, we have no evidence that Tarquin or any of his other associates are epic yet.

[Raineh Daze]

Let's see: one is a clearly epic ECL (Racial HD plus tons of LA) lizardfolk vampire, but without so many class levels. Strictly speaking, epic. The other is a martial class, who therefore does not have access to epic spells. Conquering much of a continent singlehandedly until the rest turned on him simultaneously is pretty impressive, given what he has to work with (AKA, no ninth or above spells). Honestly, the only other epic characters we've seen are casters (and probably Soon's ghost), so no bar has been set for epic martial stuff.

[Forikroder]

Let's see: one is a clearly epic ECL (Racial HD plus tons of LA) lizardfolk vampire, but without so many class levels. Strictly speaking, epic. The other is a martial class, who therefore does not have access to epic spells. Conquering much of a continent singlehandedly until the rest turned on him simultaneously is pretty impressive, given what he has to work with (AKA, no ninth or above spells). Honestly, the only other epic characters we've seen are casters (and probably Soon's ghost), so no bar has been set for epic martial stuff.

epic characters are practically demi-gods which the laws of reality barely even apply too

Tarquin took damage from the order while fighting defensively hes not epic

[TRH]

epic characters are practically demi-gods which the laws of reality barely even apply too

Tarquin took damage from the order while fighting defensively hes not epic

Xykon took damage from 'fighting' Roy back in Azure City. Therefore, by what passes for logic with you, he's not epic either.

[Forikroder]

Xykon took damage from 'fighting' Roy back in Azure City. Therefore, by what passes for logic with you, he's not epic either.

hes a sorcerer and Tarquin was a fighter theres 2 completely different things

Tarquin was specifically fighting DEFENSIVELY

Xykon was just sitting there letting Roy wack on him till he got bored

[Raineh Daze]

That description only really applies to casters, anyway. Honestly, martial classes don't get all that much out of it. Also, do remember that there is always a 1/20 chance of hitting anyone in D&D.

Epic levelled fighter =/= invincible in combat. Getting your AC up is horrendously expensive (which, I should note, he has the resources for now) and doesn't really increase just by levelling.

[Forikroder]

That description only really applies to casters, anyway. Honestly, martial classes don't get all that much out of it. Also, do remember that there is always a 1/20 chance of hitting anyone in D&D.

Epic levelled fighter =/= invincible in combat. Getting your AC up is horrendously expensive (which, I should note, he has the resources for now) and doesn't really increase just by levelling.

not compared to casters sure but what some of the skills turn into after you pass 20 is ridiculous

[Raineh Daze]

Uh, none of them surpass, at most, sixth level spells. I'm being serious, here, the best you seem to get is walking on clouds. With a DC around one hundred. Now, that's an epic level use of the balance skill. Still worse than easily available spells.

Honestly? Epic would mostly mean more feats and HD in this case. That's pretty much it.

[Bird]

hes a sorcerer and Tarquin was a fighter theres 2 completely different things

Tarquin was specifically fighting DEFENSIVELY
Have to agree with Raineh -- that wouldn't grant him an untouchable AC.

Too, Tarquin was "showboating" and "clowning around," not trying to be effective.

[Forikroder]

Have to agree with Raineh -- that wouldn't grant him an untouchable AC.

Too, Tarquin was "showboating" and "clowning around," not trying to be effective.

he wasnt trying to kill the OoTS he just wasnt as effective as normal (since he wasnt trying to kill)

he took way too much damage for being an epic level fighter fighting defensive

[Raineh Daze]

Scratch damage is too much damage? I don't recall his being particularly damaged in any of these fights.

Seriously, unless his AC is in the mid to high forties, he would end up getting hit by SOMEONE. And that number us mostly a matter of monetary investment.

[Forikroder]

Scratch damage is too much damage? I don't recall his being particularly damaged in any of these fights.

Seriously, unless his AC is in the mid to high forties, he would end up getting hit by SOMEONE. And that number us mostly a matter of monetary investment.

he got hurt a hell of alot more then a few scratchs

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html

unless getting stabbed through the liver, shot through the foot and stabbed in the leg a couple scratchs

Tarquin would ahve gont down if he didnt have that super ring of regeneration and thats even with the surprise round

[Raineh Daze]

What. You're seriously suggesting that's enough to take him down? Seriously, everyone else seems more injured. Hell, if we catalogue how much damage it's taken to kill people before, that's still really low. :/

And if it's mostly healed in a round, even by a buffed ring of regeneration, he either has epic equipment or was barely harmed in the first place.

... He also got stabbed from behind, which negates any and all dodge bonuses to AC (flat-footed) and, you know, makes him easier to hit. :smallwink:

[Forikroder]

What. You're seriously suggesting that's enough to take him down? Seriously, everyone else seems more injured. Hell, if we catalogue how much damage it's taken to kill people before, that's still really low. :/

And if it's mostly healed in a round, even by a buffed ring of regeneration, he either has epic equipment or was barely harmed in the first place.

... He also got stabbed from behind, which negates any and all dodge bonuses to AC (flat-footed) and, you know, makes him easier to hit. :smallwink:

getting stabbed from behind doesnt make you flat footed

im not saying it was enough at that point in time but he would ahve gone down if it wasnt for his completely outside the rules ring of fast healing

[Auldrin]

He was flat footed because he wasn't paying attention. Even if he wasn't, he hadn't declared an attack so he couldn't be fighting defensively, he clearly wasn't using total defense because he wasn't defending himself. He had full plate, and I guess he could have bracers of protection.

On top of all of that, fighters get a grand total of absolutely-no-benefit for being epic. You know what fighters get at 21? Saves increases. 22? A feat. Continue in that fashion literally forever. It would be hard to distinguish a level 150 fighter from a level 10, given the actions we've actually seen Tarquin take in combat. You're attributing completely non-existent magical properties to a non-magical class.

[Forikroder]

He was flat footed because he wasn't paying attention. Even if he wasn't, he hadn't declared an attack so he couldn't be fighting defensively, he clearly wasn't using total defense because he wasn't defending himself. He had full plate, and I guess he could have bracers of protection.

On top of all of that, fighters get a grand total of absolutely-no-benefit for being epic. You know what fighters get at 21? Saves increases. 22? A feat. Continue in that fashion literally forever. It would be hard to distinguish a level 150 fighter from a level 10, given the actions we've actually seen Tarquin take in combat. You're attributing completely non-existent magical properties to a non-magical class.

he was not flat footed your only flatfooted at the start of combat or if some other effect renders you flat footed

[Auldrin]

As much as I hate, absolutely hate, when people cry 'but this isn't DnD' the second anyone tries to discuss rules, he was clearly distracted to the extent that he was flatfooted. He wasn't prepared to dodge, he didn't realize people were about to attack him, and he made absolutely no efforts to defend himself. He was flatfooted literally and metaphorically.

[Forikroder]

As much as I hate, absolutely hate, when people cry 'but this isn't DnD' the second anyone tries to discuss rules, he was clearly distracted to the extent that he was flatfooted. He wasn't prepared to dodge, he didn't realize people were about to attack him, and he made absolutely no efforts to defend himself. He was flatfooted literally and metaphorically.

were discussing what level someone is and your argument is going to be "but its realistic to assume he was flat footed"?

arguments that are based on rich not following DnD rules have no place in an argument over DnD rules

[Akari Itagami]

As much as I hate, absolutely hate, when people cry 'but this isn't DnD' the second anyone tries to discuss rules, he was clearly distracted to the extent that he was flatfooted. He wasn't prepared to dodge, he didn't realize people were about to attack him, and he made absolutely no efforts to defend himself. He was flatfooted literally and metaphorically.

When you're speaking in terms of DnD there isn't even a rule that could cause someone flatfooted by distraction.

If you disregard that, just leave the flatfooted terms somewhere else already!

[Kish]

Yeah, um, what the hell. Pick "fighters are pathetic at epic levels in OotS because they are in D&D" or "Tarquin was obviously flatfooted even though he wouldn't be by D&D rules" and argue one of them at a time, will you?

[Forikroder]

Yeah, um, what the hell. Pick "fighters are pathetic at epic levels in OotS because they are in D&D" or "Tarquin was obviously flatfooted even though he wouldn't be by D&D rules" and argue one of them at a time, will you?

those 2 arguments are on different sides of the fence one is saying hes not epic because the order did so well agaisnt him and the other is saying he is epic and was jsut caught off guard

[Raineh Daze]

One day I will stop getting flanking and flat-footed confused. XD

Still stands that he was just, y'know, stood there and not taking any defensive action that would actually prevent someone from getting injured.

Yes, the Order "did so well" that they inflicted non-significant injuries because he stood there in the middle of combat and didn't do anything. Then got forced to retreat from one spell. Yeah, they really "did well" in that fight. :smallamused:


im not saying it was enough at that point in time but he would ahve gone down if it wasnt for his completely outside the rules ring of fast healing


Fast Healing only covers it if this is something like Fast Healing 10. Or he has the Tarrasque's regeneration (40 against everything). I'm also wondering what sort of class you think he must have for that to be so much damage he's practically dead. Are you operating under the assumption he has negligible constitution and rolled poorly for HP or something?

[Mike Havran]

By rules, Malack's ECL is least 23 (12 Cleric levels, 8 LA vampire, 1 LA lizardfolk, 2 RHD lizardfolk).

Malack has been watching Tarquin fighting for 35 years. And since Tarquin is somewhere in his fifties, he had to be pretty low level fighter when they first met and assembled their party. They got most of the exp. together. So, the CL of the rest should not be very far from Malack's ECL.

That makes the Epic territory more likely.

[Kish]

those 2 arguments are on different sides of the fence one is saying hes not epic because the order did so well agaisnt him and the other is saying he is epic and was jsut caught off guard
...Forikroder, are you saying there are two posters with the name Auldrin here? Or that Auldrin has two personalities which disagree?

[Auldrin]

those 2 arguments are on different sides of the fence one is saying hes not epic because the order did so well agaisnt him and the other is saying he is epic and was jsut caught off guard

I'm aware that I'm saying simultaneously that one rule should probably be ignored while another is important. I've not claimed that he wasn't epic, though, I've claimed that being epic DOES NOT mean that he should be doing backflips and throwing buildings at people. Epic fighters are just fighters but a bit better, they are not 'almost godlike' or any other descriptor with magical implications. An increase in fighter level provides new feats (which for fighters usually means more options), increased saves (hasn't come up) and increased BAB (He didn't miss).

Say what you want about the flat footed- he was not prepared for combat. In dnd, if you aren't prepared for combat you're flat footed. Raineh knows what I'm talking about.

Edit: In fact, here's a good way of explaining this. If this were an actual game of DnD, then what happened was that the DM specifically stated that Tarquin moved up to Elan, and was distracted, not defending himself. Characters sometimes make suboptimal actions. The action of 'standing in a battlefield doing nothing' was suboptimal, but it is actually supported by the rules.

[Raineh Daze]

Epic level doesn't even provide more BAB or saves. Yuuup.

[Auldrin]

Epic level doesn't even provide more BAB or saves. Yuuup.

It does saves, I may be wrong about BAB.

[Raineh Daze]

Well, strictly speaking they both go up, but it's a flat bonus rather than continued base progression, so it's identical for any character (and it's +1 per two levels, so epic attack bonuses are pretty useless for someone relying on melee). :smallbiggrin:

[quasit]

Putting the story over game mechanics: Tarqin was'nt paying attention to the fight when he's got skewered by the order. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html)
Putting game mechanics over the story: Tarqin was'nt paying attention to the fight when he's got skewered by the order. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Flat-Footed).
Also, about low-epic fighters, I agree in that , aside some epic feats and bling stuff; there's no way to discern them from nonepic-high level ones.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Couple big assumptions including that the members of Team Tarquin haven't gained levels since their adventuring days:

Some evidence for the rest of the team not being level 20+ is that Malack wouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of finding appropriate challenges if his party was epic level and doing stuff that gains experience for them, since he would be finding appropriate challenges.

Also, it is unlikely an epic party would include a caster-level-12ish cleric. Guessing they're more like mid-teens, maybe late teens.

[Raineh Daze]

Couple big assumptions including that the members of Team Tarquin haven't gained levels since their adventuring days:

Some evidence for the rest of the team not being level 20+ is that Malack wouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of finding appropriate challenges if his party was epic level and doing stuff that gains experience for them, since he would be finding appropriate challenges.

Also, it is unlikely an epic party would include a caster-level-12ish cleric. Guessing they're more like mid-teens, maybe late teens.

I think I've seen Malack's ECL go up to 35. That all depends on what he actually is. :smallamused:

More likely late teens or epic than midteens, unless one 16th level fighter-type is honestly enough to stump the majority of the OotS, which is the least reasonable outcome. :smallconfused:

[Olinser]

I think I've seen Malack's ECL go up to 35. That all depends on what he actually is. :smallamused:

More likely late teens or epic than midteens, unless one 16th level fighter-type is honestly enough to stump the majority of the OotS, which is the least reasonable outcome. :smallconfused:

Well... one OPTIMIZED level 16 fighter (and 1 flame strike) is enough to stump the OOTS, when left without their offensive caster.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Also, it is unlikely an epic party would include a caster-level-12ish cleric. Guessing they're more like mid-teens, maybe late teens.

Come to think of it, perhaps Malack was a similar (caster) level as the rest of the party when they started, but didn't gain levels throughout their adventures. Nevermind.

[Olinser]

Come to think of it, perhaps Malack was a similar (caster) level as the rest of the party when they started, but didn't gain levels throughout their adventures. Nevermind.

A buddy of mine actually sat down and figured it out, assuming an ECL of +10 for Malack.

If they all met together at level 10 and began adventuring, when Malack hit 12, the others would be in the 16-17 range.

After that they'd stay fairly steady at +4-5 levels over Malack - Malack's reduced exp gain is balanced by him needing less experience for his level.

[Raineh Daze]

Eh, I expect Tarquin to be higher than 16th, if only because he's gaining XP really slowly for someone so competent in order to be at the Order's level. :smallconfused:

Actually, ECL is +11, I think? (2 Racial HD, 1 Lizardfolk LA, 8 Vampire LA) So that might need recalculating. XD

[Mike Havran]

Some evidence for the rest of the team not being level 20+ is that Malack wouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of finding appropriate challenges if his party was epic level and doing stuff that gains experience for them, since he would be finding appropriate challenges.They would not be appropriate challenges, but incredibly dangerous challenges for him. More so if they spend most of the time split into three parts.


Also, it is unlikely an epic party would include a caster-level-12ish cleric.If they were powergaming then yes. But I think they are more into loyalty or perhaps friendship way of party.

A buddy of mine actually sat down and figured it out, assuming an ECL of +10 for Malack.

If they all met together at level 10 and began adventuring, when Malack hit 12, the others would be in the 16-17 range.

After that they'd stay fairly steady at +4-5 levels over Malack - Malack's reduced exp gain is balanced by him needing less experience for his level.That's a nice math there. Still, I doubt Tarquin would carelessly charge into a group of five adventures, including cleric, if he was only two or three levels above them. And he wasn't "even trying".

[Raineh Daze]

Not to mention that, even if he and the others can handle a group, he's a vampire. Such as high-levelled good-aligned clerics. Yeah, if they meet after dark or inside? Not good for him.

[rodneyAnonymous]

And he wasn't "even trying".

He wasn't trying to kill them, not he wasn't trying at all.

[137beth]

Uh, none of them surpass, at most, sixth level spells. I'm being serious, here, the best you seem to get is walking on clouds. With a DC around one hundred. Now, that's an epic level use of the balance skill. Still worse than easily available spells.

Honestly? Epic would mostly mean more feats and HD in this case. That's pretty much it.

It is not just you, but several people in this thread apparently haven't played at ECL 25+ very much. WBL increases exponentially during epic levels, while the cost of magic items does not. After a while, you can easily afford magic items which replicate any nonepic spell you want for negligible cost (though sometimes at a lower caster level than your own level, depending on how high you are. Yes, at extremely high levels, you can afford magic items which cast spells whose effective caster level is substantially higher than your own level.) Eventually, the feats become much less significant. In fact, since most classes don't gain very many class features, and everyone's attack bonus and saves increase the same, magic items effectively trump everything else about most classes (except epic spells.) A level 100 commoner is much, much, much better than a level 80 [anything without epic spells.]

Of course, all of this depends on the availability of good magic items. So really, how much more powerful you become at epic levels is largely campaign-specific.

We don't have any evidence that Tarquin is epic, although we are pretty sure he is higher than the OOTS. However, we have virtually no evidence that he isn't epic.

EDIT:

I'm aware that I'm saying simultaneously that one rule should probably be ignored while another is important. I've not claimed that he wasn't epic, though, I've claimed that being epic DOES NOT mean that he should be doing backflips and throwing buildings at people. Epic fighters are just fighters but a bit better, they are not 'almost godlike' or any other descriptor with magical implications. An increase in fighter level provides new feats (which for fighters usually means more options), increased saves (hasn't come up) and increased BAB (He didn't miss).
This is mostly correct. A big part of increasing his level is that extra gold could buy magic items which grant bonus feats. He certainly seems to have a lot of feats, so this makes sense. However, for everyone but casters, there is nothing real special about level 21--it isn't much different from any other level increase as far as power is concerned. If he were a level 40 fighter, I'd be surprised if he couldn't do all the things described (plus more.) But he isn't. If he is epic at all, he is low epic, so it would be hard to distinguish him from a high level nonepic character.

[Raineh Daze]

The thing about Tarquin and wealth is that he has rather a lot of it. Starting with that ring and the fact he has a spare. :smallamused:

[Mike Havran]

He wasn't trying to kill them, not he wasn't trying at all.Well, he was trying to determine their (especially Elan's) competence in a fight. He wasn't trying to do the intended goal and make their mission shorter. That was what Malack was complaining about.

[hobo386]

What's Tarquin gonna do in a one-on-one fight against Xykon? As a lich, he's got crazy DR, and Tarquin isn't prepared for that.

I'm in the group that thinks Xykon would win, but lich DR is one thing I think Tarquin would have no problem countering.

Smart Tarquin would stay out of Xykon's way though, or at least bring out his full team, dragons, beasties, and assortment of magic items.

[Raineh Daze]

Seriously, Tarquin can pun duel, I don't think he'd have trouble with the mere existence of DR.

What's the wealth of three empires like? Divide by six. The wealth of each individual member of that adventuring party if pressed.

[TRH]

And I'm guessing he could scrounge up a magic bludgeoning weapon if he needed to. That would bypass a lich's damage reduction, wouldn't it?

[Auldrin]

I may add more to this post shortly, but for now: The wealth rules for epic characters don't matter even slightly, because Tarquin doesn't get his wealth from adventuring. He can easily funnel resources from the empire. That's my view, anyway. Non-epic Tarquin has the same access to magic items that Epic Tarquin would have (possible exception if they're being crafted by an EL caster in his team)

[Olinser]

I may add more to this post shortly, but for now: The wealth rules for epic characters don't matter even slightly, because Tarquin doesn't get his wealth from adventuring. He can easily funnel resources from the empire. That's my view, anyway. Non-epic Tarquin has the same access to magic items that Epic Tarquin would have (possible exception if they're being crafted by an EL caster in his team)

Not to mention the magic items he confiscates from suckers like Enor and Gannji.

[137beth]

Not to mention the magic items he confiscates from suckers like Enor and Gannji.

If he is epic, 55000 gold is pocket change. Now, if he confiscates stuff from enough mid-level npcs, then it could make a difference.

[Forikroder]

I may add more to this post shortly, but for now: The wealth rules for epic characters don't matter even slightly, because Tarquin doesn't get his wealth from adventuring. He can easily funnel resources from the empire. That's my view, anyway. Non-epic Tarquin has the same access to magic items that Epic Tarquin would have (possible exception if they're being crafted by an EL caster in his team)

not really id imagine the people who supply epic level equipment arent so easy to find that you can order it in the mail

even if he does have enough money to get it doesnt mean he has the means

[Raineh Daze]

not really id imagine the people who supply epic level equipment arent so easy to find that you can order it in the mail

even if he does have enough money to get it doesnt mean he has the means

Is there any epic equipment at all on the Western continent and not squirrelled away somewhere unknown like Girard's Gate? If yes, he should be able to acquire it somehow with those resources. :smallbiggrin:

[Auldrin]

not really id imagine the people who supply epic level equipment arent so easy to find that you can order it in the mail

even if he does have enough money to get it doesnt mean he has the means

That doesn't really conflict with my point. Availability is the only factor, his level and thus wealth level are not. So you would not be able to judge that he is or is not epic based on his ability to acquire resources.

Even if he is epic, he doesn't adventure actively, he runs (and probably requisitions from) an empire.

To clarify: I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was epic. I'm trying to illustrate that you can't say 'he's not epic because he didn't throw the planet at roy' because epic fighters have absolutely NO visible indicators beyond wealth, and Tarquin has nigh-infinite wealth from a non-adventure source, so it can't be expected to correspond to his WBL.

[homeosapiens]

I think that the fact that he owns an empire, and it's actually 3 of them indicates that he is epic.

How does running an empire differs from regular adventuring? You get assassins as random encounters, dragons, elf wizards trying to scy-and-die you. You get the exp from here. You get treasure from npc or pc prisoners, from mentioned assassins, but also from taxes. It's like adventuring but while running business.

You do get exp as usual. Why would your MG deny it to you? Just because u did something big and benefit from it?

Thats just my view of T and his team. Malack is probably the weakest one beacuse of his la. Let's not forget it also gives him immortality(age wise) and he might get better than all of them in say next millenium.

Apart from this disscusion - nobody really thinks that 882 indicates that Tarquin did sent for his entire team off panel and we dont know about it yet, because we are not supposed to yet? He might be there, where he is now just to greet them.

This is just theory thread, but i believe this gate battle cannot be left without other Tarquin team members. Otherwise Xykon squashes everything, and we have end of comic.

I do not doubt that OotS will have part in it, but without help they are nothing right now. V is almost k.o., B. barely lives - D. is enthralled, the reast doesn't do much on it's own.

I think 2-3 TT members will die, possibly soulbinded. Malack will die. D will come back to the order as a vampire. Gate will be destroyed. X and R will escape or win but with destroyed gate.

What other reason would Tarquin have to stay besides w8ing for his full team? He realizes Xykon exists, even if he doesnt know his name - for him it's a villain bent on world conquest. He didn't came just for the gate - he came to get the gate, or at least stop this other villain from getting it.

That is the reason why TT is going to be there, and it's going to be epic :D .

[Raineh Daze]

V is bruised. She's squishy anyway, so no loss there. Basically at full strength, really.

Introducing the rest of Tarquin's team, just to have half of them be soulbound? Eh, not going to happen. Waste of 9th level spells and resources. Killed, maybe, but they're wealthy enough that's just a temporary speedbump.

Don't think Malack's likely to die too soon. There's still a lot of potential lurking there.