Planning Tome of Battle Only Game

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Yes, I know this means I'm crazy. Hush now.

So, I'm a huge fan of Tome of Battle, and it seems like the #1 complaint levelled against it is that it conflicts with the "Flavor" of D&D. I personally think this is bull puckey, since D&D is too complex and heterogeneous to have a defined flavor to begin with, but it did get me thinking - Tome of Battle certainly has its own flavor/style, and it might be interesting to see how that plays out without the rest of D&D conflicting with it.

The base set of rules for this game would be that everyone would be required to play one of the ToB base classes, with the possible addition of some homebrew ToB-esque base classes. Prestige classes from ToB would also be allowed, and you could dip other classes enough to gain entry, if required. To make sure the party isn't too mechanically homogenous, I'd allow a number of homebrew disciplines; my first thought is that I'd go through and select the allowed ones myself, but I might decide to be more flexible and allow players to request the specific ones they want. (Normally I'm big on flexible DMing, but I want the disciplines/philosophies to fit in with the flavour of the world, which also means actually building them into the history of the setting, coming up with monasteries that teach them, political groups that favour them, etc.)

As far as the setting goes, I have a hard time fitting the non-human races into the flavour of this, so here's what I'm proposing: hopefully it isn't either too dull or too racist.

First, players can pick a nationality of origin - I'm planning to actually use a map of the far East as the baseline, and the basic countries I'm imagining are Japan, China, Mongolia, Korea and Vietnam, but that's very subject to expansion. Your nationality would give you some benefits, but not stat adjustments; for instance, it might give you free access to a certain martial style, a bonus on certain skill checks, maybe a bonus feat or something similar, but no +2 INT -2 CHA, cause... yeah, that's just wrong.

Second, players could pick a "Bloodline", or something similar - I'll need to read up more on Eastern philsophy and mythology before I nail anything down, but the idea is that they were born with a certain semi-mystical trait that carried both benefits and burdens; this is where the stat adjustments would come in. A Water-trait person, for instance, might get a bonus to DEX but a penalty to CON.

Finally, I'm considering simply allowing people to choose to be large or small sized, as they wish (or at least small sized). This would just represent some people being born larger or smaller than others, nothing fancy.

As far as the setting itself goes, I've already mentioned planning to use the real-world map and nations; the time period would be an amalgamation of the most interesting/iconic bits of history, so the Warring State period of China, Feudal Japan and the Mongolian Invasion would all be happening together. Sun Tzu and Ghengais Khan would both have equivalents; again, I need to study up on the history of the region before making any more decisions.

So - what do people think? As far as game play goes, would the mechanics be fun? Are there any homebrew elements I should explicitly add? Do you think you'd have fun in this sort of unified-flavor setting?

...is anything that I've said horribly, stupidly offensive?

[Callin]

I think it could work. Cherry picking some caster classes to get the JPM and RKV PrC's will give the needed Spell Casting. Other than that I think it would be a blast and I would honestly LOVE to play in this category of game. The setting I dont care for all that much but thats my taste. Other than that there shouldnt be anything wrong with it mechanically.

[Keld Denar]

I think it would work. Obviously, you'd have to allow some PHB stuff for feats and skills. I've been thinking about running a game with only the ToB and the MIC. I think it would be a pretty interesting game with lots of emphasis on swift action economy, especially for Warblades and Swordsages.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Well, yeah, I'd allow feats from everywhere - it's only the base classes that would be limited to Tome of Battle.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I recall reading a homebrew world on these boardd with a pretty similar idea..I know it had Wuxia on the name, so you might want to check it out.

Edit: Quick Google check revealed it as Warriors and Wuxia by Callos De Terran.

[The-Mage-King]

I still say just using Warriors and Wuxia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205213) would work fine. It's got rules amassed, and fits the areas you're looking at. Watch some kung-fu flicks, and you're good to go for the setting's tone. :smalltongue:


With regards to size, again, Slight Build and Powerful Build. More manageable.

Recall that disciplines are merely collections of variations on a few techniques, and that what groups of practitioners need are styles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11314559&postcount=5)- collections of techniques that are philosophically and thematically united.


EDIT: Dusk, y u ninja me?

[Darius Kane]

(Normally I'm big on flexible DMing, but I want the disciplines/philosophies to fit in with the flavour of the world, which also means actually building them into the history of the setting, coming up with monasteries that teach them, political groups that favour them, etc.)
Unless you're the type that has to do everything by himself in regards to your homebrew setting, just leave this things to your players. They want to use the homebrew discipline? Let them work for it and come up with some neat fluff. That way you save some time and have less work.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hmmm... Something would have to be done about the racially restricted PrCs (Eternal Blade, Deepstone Sentinel), provided there was interest in them.

[Rubik]

Would you allow psionics and the various T3 classes as well? It'd work especially well if, for instance, you replaced the factotum's spell-likes with a limited maneuver progression.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Answering (I hope, almost) everyone, but I'm too lazy to quote you all, so...

Racially restricted prestige classes are no problem, I can just nix the restriction.

I'm usually fine with handing over part of the creative process to players - my only issue with it is this. I like for players to be connected to the world around them, have their own race and nationality and philosophy be at play in the larger battles; if they're part of an organized religion, the church hierarchy should be a thing, if they're from a noble family, their family should be involved in politics, etc.

So, the problem with letting people write in their own origins is that you end up with a lot of players whose backstory basically reads "Well, I'm from somewhere else where this character would make sense," and you lose out on those connections. I see two ways to have my cake and eat it two, but they they both involve a lot of extra work and collaboration: the first is to just hand the players the larger setting and say "Okay, work your stuff into this," which requires the player to be willing to put in a lot of extra effort and line up their stuff with yours; the second is to get what the player wants early enough in the world design process that I, as DM, could go through and integrate it. I'm willing to do the work for the second one, but it slows things down, requires more work between player and DM, and I'm not quite certain how well it would work in a PbP game between strangers.

Warriors and Wuxia... maybe. I'm always hesitant to use established content, for two reasons: First, I'm much better at BSing than I am at studying, so it's easier for me to make stuff up as I go along, than to try to fit things in to a complicated and established setting/ruleset. Second, at least in terms of the setting, writing and design is one of my favourite parts, so I'm loath to just use pre-made content.

As for my lack of experience with anime/martial arts movies, I'm not sure if that would actually be good or bad. On the one hand, lack of knowledge would mean that there was less common language between me and my players, and I'd have less to build off of - fewer sources of inspiration, fewer ideas of what's already been done, etc. On the other hand, I could actually see things being a little fresher for such - the game might end up with a more unique style and tone because I was working from base principles/historical analogs/a blank slate, rather than using existing tropes.

As for the psionic classes... I dunno. My first thought was to make this literally pure Tome of Battle as far as the base classes were concerned - that may or may not be feasible, or good.

...I need to read over the list of homebrewed disciplines, and see if there aren't any that could sort of replace caster; ideally, rather than adding psionics, I'd have a "Sage" class that existed in the territory beyond Swordsage, with techniques that were even more explicitly magically. I dunno if that would work, just snowballing here.

I personally like the flavour already associated with the disciplines, but I could see grouping them into larger and more cohesive schools... hmm. Maybe Disciplines would be historical proto-schools, or sets developed by a single master that were then adopted into larger Styles...

[ArcturusV]

It all depends on what you want. The lack of casters would make me worry a bit about the access to healing and if it'd slow down pacing. I know Crusaders do get some healing, but I also recall from your Recruitment topic about it that almost everyone wants to go Swordsage or Warblade, you didn't have any declared Crusaders.

If I was DMing it, and due to my own experiences running with it, I'd probably plug in PD's Medical Officer class. Covers "healing" but is not explicitly magical. More like a sawbones which could fit a faux eastern setting with various things like Chi Balancing, Acupuncture, etc, as his "Surgical" abilities.

[Yahya]

This sounds like a really awesome campaign, good luck! :smallsmile:


(Normally I'm big on flexible DMing, but I want the disciplines/philosophies to fit in with the flavour of the world, which also means actually building them into the history of the setting, coming up with monasteries that teach them, political groups that favour them, etc.)

As far as the setting goes, I have a hard time fitting the non-human races into the flavour of this, so here's what I'm proposing: hopefully it isn't either too dull or too racist.

First, players can pick a nationality of origin - I'm planning to actually use a map of the far East as the baseline, and the basic countries I'm imagining are Japan, China, Mongolia, Korea and Vietnam, but that's very subject to expansion. Your nationality would give you some benefits, but not stat adjustments; for instance, it might give you free access to a certain martial style, a bonus on certain skill checks, maybe a bonus feat or something similar, but no +2 INT -2 CHA, cause... yeah, that's just wrong.

Second, players could pick a "Bloodline", or something similar - I'll need to read up more on Eastern philsophy and mythology before I nail anything down, but the idea is that they were born with a certain semi-mystical trait that carried both benefits and burdens; this is where the stat adjustments would come in. A Water-trait person, for instance, might get a bonus to DEX but a penalty to CON.

I like this a lot, and I think would add a lot to the game. Another potential source to derive "stat modifiers" (for lack of a better term) from, in place of race or nationality, could also be from people's professional/family/socioeconomic background. For a random example, rather than all Whateverian people gaining +2 on perception and all Otherese people getting +2 on ride, maybe people from the steppes get +2 on ride and handle animal, people from rice farms get +2 on knowledge (nature) and athletics, and people who grew up in the wealthy part of the city get +2 on diplomacy and knowledge (nobility), or something along those lines.

Another way I've seen this handled is through "Factions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12744028&postcount=18)." Zap Dynamic's really great setting The Blackwood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232675) uses this.

Also, just out of curiosity, will there be playable non-human races in this world?

[The-Mage-King]

Warriors and Wuxia... maybe. I'm always hesitant to use established content, for two reasons: First, I'm much better at BSing than I am at studying, so it's easier for me to make stuff up as I go along, than to try to fit things in to a complicated and established setting/ruleset. Second, at least in terms of the setting, writing and design is one of my favourite parts, so I'm loath to just use pre-made content.


That's the beautiful thing is that W&W is just a collection of house rules, and broad strokes of the setting itself.

Like, the general political state of it, the name/culture of it's regions, and the capital city.


...I need to read over the list of homebrewed disciplines, and see if there aren't any that could sort of replace caster; ideally, rather than adding psionics, I'd have a "Sage" class that existed in the territory beyond Swordsage, with techniques that were even more explicitly magically. I dunno if that would work, just snowballing here.

Guru. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205126) :smalltongue:

Really, you should look at the W&W class list. The homebrew ones fill in the empty slots.


I personally like the flavour already associated with the disciplines, but I could see grouping them into larger and more cohesive schools... hmm. Maybe Disciplines would be historical proto-schools, or sets developed by a single master that were then adopted into larger Styles...

Eh. Flavor is mutable. Disciplines make up the basic moves found throughout the world- regardless of where you are, that block, the one where you strike your foe's attack with your own? That's Wall of Blades. It may go by different names (Tiger Clawing the Sun, Crane's Parry, Überlaufen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing#Techniques), what have you), but it's always the same core technique.

Schools apply the basic moves to their philosophies and practices to make proper styles, instead of a smattering of techniques.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, this may be my inexperience talking, but when I hear about some change or other limiting healing (assuming that wasn't the intention,) my thoughts are this:

In-combat healing isn't that significant. If it's gone, oh well, players can be more careful; if it's a serious problem, toss the party a few potions.

Out-of-combat healing is important, but is also really, really easy to fix; give the party a single magical item that heals something like 1 HP/minute, and it's done. Alternatively, give them an item that can heal so many HP per day across any number of people, replicate certain spell effects, whatever.

Honestly, this is also my reaction to all of the "The party needs a *insert class here* but no one wants to play it" arguments: if it's causing an actual problem, the DM should just step in and give the party the resources to handle it in another manner.

On a related note - what do people think of a house rule that lets every player pick a single skill (not UMD) and treat it as a class skill?

[Yahya]

Sounds alright to me, so long as you are OK with anybody being able to Use Magic Devices. Other than that, I can't really think of any issues that could come up, and even that is probably negligible.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

That's the beautiful thing is that W&W is just a collection of house rules, and broad strokes of the setting itself.

Like, the general political state of it, the name/culture of it's regions, and the capital city.



Guru. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205126) :smalltongue:

Really, you should look at the W&W class list. The homebrew ones fill in the empty slots.



Eh. Flavor is mutable. Disciplines make up the basic moves found throughout the world- regardless of where you are, that block, the one where you strike your foe's attack with your own? That's Wall of Blades. It may go by different names (Tiger Clawing the Sun, Crane's Parry, Überlaufen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing#Techniques), what have you), but it's always the same core technique.

Schools apply the basic moves to their philosophies and practices to make proper styles, instead of a smattering of techniques.

*Nods* Alright, I'll read over Warriors and Wuxia tomorrow - it's very unlikely I'll accept it whole hog, but it does useful.

As for flavour being mutable... this is bias based on my own experiences, but I think that this is less true (by which I mean realistic) when it comes to martial arts. From my own quite limited studies (I spent about a year studying Aikido in college - was pretty hardcore about it for the time that I spent, but had to quit due to an injury) - the philosophy really does line up with the actual manoeuvres. So, a discipline with a philosophy of "Stength is an illusion, the best route is to turn your opponent's attacks against them" will actually function in a different way than a discipline with a philosophy of "Deception is the nature of conflict", which will be different than "The conscious mind is a burden in combat, martial prowess comes from becoming more instinctual and animalistic."

I know that in D&D realism always yields to rule of cool, but to me, that concept is also really very cool, and a big part of what this style is all about - the notion that philosophies and worldview inform the way a person functions on every level.

Or maybe you agree with all that, and I just completely misunderstood your point. Wouldn't be the first time. :smallsmile:

[ArcturusV]

Eh, it depends, on the healing thing and "just use items" to replicate classes. On one hand, it's kind of a dangerous door to open to let people just use items to replace class roles. Plus it kind of detracts from the feeling of a Tome of Battle classes as I see it. They're supposed to be about the individual and their own discipline, expertise, and focus. Less about the items they have. Although, yes, since it's still DnD, that is in effect somewhat.

Plus there's squicky things that sometimes come up when people replace something like Healing with Items. Stabilization issues are the ones I typically see coming up. "But I have a potion!" "Yeah... but you're unconscious, you can't exactly drink can you?" "... dammit..."

Which is why Wands often get used. But if you open up the doors to Wands and UMDing it kind of gets ugly. Going to have someone who wants to basically just be a wizard and UMD all the things. At that point you might as well just give them the class. Least how I see it.

Of course, there's natural healing and heal checks. But that does really slow down the game's story. And negates the ability to really refresh mid dungeon/encounter series.

[Dsurion]

...I need to read over the list of homebrewed disciplines, and see if there aren't any that could sort of replace caster; ideally, rather than adding psionics, I'd have a "Sage" class that existed in the territory beyond Swordsage, with techniques that were even more explicitly magically. I dunno if that would work, just snowballing here.Perhaps take a look at Ziegander's Mageknight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10912650&postcount=1)?

[avr]

Healing HP isn't a big issue particularly for Crusaders. It's healing conditions (ability damage/drain, energy drain, curses, blindness/deafness, petrifaction, other weird stuff) that needs magic.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Sounds alright to me, so long as you are OK with anybody being able to Use Magic Devices. Other than that, I can't really think of any issues that could come up, and even that is probably negligible.

Thus the mentioning "Not UMD". :smalltongue:

Big idea is twofold - first, people are not defined entirely by their class, anyone can have a hobby. Second, there are skills that simply are not class skills for any of the ToB classes, but I still want the party to have access to them.

[Yahya]

Whoops, that's what I get for skimming. :smallredface:

On the healing issue, perhaps you could use some sort of "reserves" system, where a few times every day, a player can tap into hidden reserves and gain a certain amount of temporary hitpoints based on their level?

Maybe those reserves could come from the gods, but in order to be able to use them, you need to donate a certain amount of stuff to their shrines, or something like that.

I dunno actually, in retrospect that seems like a silly idea. Ah well. :smallsmile:

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Hmmm...

The "Letting items replace class roles" is definitely a dangerous door to open, but I feel this would be a pretty clearly-defined exception, if indeed I don't include any classes that can't fill that roll on their own.

It seems like items could be tailored for the flavour: something along the lines of a prayer/meditation rug that allows people who meditate on top of it to regenerate, something like Kitara's spirit water from Avatar... it doesn't have to be a wand, since it would very likely be a unique item I'd straight-up give the party, rather than make them buy.

As for healing non-HP things... I'm of two minds about that. On the one hand, yeah, that could be annoying, but could also be solved by items (maybe the spirit rug can cast "Panacea" once per day.)

On the other hand... I actually like the idea of some injuries lingering, and not every sort of damage just disappearing the next day. I could see it causing problems mechanically, but in terms of role play... injury is something that most of us can relate to, so having our characters not be at their best for a few days after a nasty fight seems like it might make things more interesting/easier to get into, emotionally.

...this is also the reason I want to come up with house rules to ban the magical creation of food, make falls more dangerous across all levels, and make it so non-magical fire does more than tickle. I feel that those problems and dangerous we can actually relate to should remain relevant for our characters. But I'm weird like that.

[The-Mage-King]

*Nods* Alright, I'll read over Warriors and Wuxia tomorrow - it's very unlikely I'll accept it whole hog, but it does useful.

Oh yeah. It's one of the three big resources I'd use for any campaign featuring ToB heavily, the others being that discipline list and the Age of Warriors compendium thread.


As for flavour being mutable... this is bias based on my own experiences, but I think that this is less true (by which I mean realistic) when it comes to martial arts. From my own quite limited studies (I spent about a year studying Aikido in college - was pretty hardcore about it for the time that I spent, but had to quit due to an injury) - the philosophy really does line up with the actual manoeuvres. So, a discipline with a philosophy of "Stength is an illusion, the best route is to turn your opponent's attacks against them" will actually function in a different way than a discipline with a philosophy of "Deception is the nature of conflict", which will be different than "The conscious mind is a burden in combat, martial prowess comes from becoming more instinctual and animalistic."


Yeah, I haven't actually studied martial arts, aside from fencing, which is more of a sport, but I see where you're coming from.

Thing is, getting things to be realistic, at times, is far too much effort to reasonably put into a game. Abstractions are there for a reason.

If I have two characters, one who's an animalistic warrior who believes that might is right, and one who is a dedicated ascetic who uses his inner calm to strike swiftly with a staff...

Well, aside from one being classified as a Warblade and the other a Swordsage, what, really, is the difference? Both could use the Wolf Fang Strike maneuver, from the Tiger Claw discipline, to represent their savage slash with two blades or their precise blows. Both could use Moment of Perfect Mind, from Diamond Mind, representing a "BY CROM!" attitude and a hasty meditative trance to overcome enreaching mental manipulation. The mechanics fit the fluff ascribed to the act in both cases, after all.

Basically, the fluff of mechanics is an abstraction that exists as guidelines. It's not the end-all, be all of the abilities.


I know that in D&D realism always yields to rule of cool, but to me, that concept is also really very cool, and a big part of what this style is all about - the notion that philosophies and worldview inform the way a person functions on every level.

Which is why styles, using various disciplines as building blocks, are what I suggest for a ToB centered world. The aforementioned animalistic warrior and ascetic could both have Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind in their styles, but be philosophically opposed, and use the mechanics of the maneuvers in question in different ways.



Or maybe you agree with all that, and I just completely misunderstood your point. Wouldn't be the first time. :smallsmile:

Eh. We might both be misunderstanding each other right now... :smalltongue:


Regarding healing, maybe buff the Heal skill, allow some non-magical things, such as special ointments* and similar. Or keep treating HP as an abstraction, representing fatigue, luck, and plot armor in addition to actual physical injury.

Perhaps only the last bit of HP is the actual physical damage? So first level HD+Con bonus?


*Take a look at the Healing Salve in Tome and Blood, as well as Bitterleaf Oil from Races of the Dragon. Perhaps buffed a bit?




Falls and fire should... Really not be that dangerous, after like level 4. How many times in low-magic fantasy do the heroes charge through fire and escape barely singed? A lot.

Same with falling and being greatly harmed.

Realism has a place. It's not in a fantasy game, focusing on fantasy martial arts that include shooting fire from your hands and teleporting.

[avr]

Some of this non-HP healing is OK at a short remove from the party. If Restoration or Break Enchantment can only be cast by a monk (social role not character class) who spends his/her life meditating in calm surroundings, that's OK; you just need to make a note of it so that the players know where to go. If Restoration and Death Ward aren't castable by players energy drain is nastier & you might want to add a CR to monsters which can do it.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

...idea.

"Heal" the skill is now a mystical ability. It's not just mundane doctoring, it's connection with the spirit world or some such. As such, it is not limited to what mundane healing could realistically do.

[Malroth]

Throw in Shujenja, Wu-Jen, Dragon Shaman and Warlock into your allowed classes. The most powerful people in the world will be the martial artists using the tome of battle but there will be those who seek non physical paths to power and these seem to be the ones that fit into your setting.

[ArcturusV]

Well, if he did allow Shugenja I'd probably throw one down, as I always wanted to run one but never got the chance. :smallbiggrin:

[The-Mage-King]

...idea.

"Heal" the skill is now a mystical ability. It's not just mundane doctoring, it's connection with the spirit world or some such. As such, it is not limited to what mundane healing could realistically do.

Profession (Doctor) or (Medicine man) covers the mundane parts, while Heal allows the user to to channel their own ki to aid others, using pressure points/special meditation/ect?

Seems good to me.

[Gwendol]

A bardsader would likely fit your healing needs. I have one ready to go.

[Callin]

One thing i have always hated was class skills. yes i know people who receive training are taught the same skills, and it makes sense on that level. but not all crusader's, swordsages, and warblades are taught at the same school, by the same teacher or even at a school period.

do away with class skills. let the PC's pick their skills like the generic classes in the UA. i like what you are doin with the heal skill but make it require a healing kit and keep track of uses. then let it heal damage using the same table as Iaijutsu Focus
10-14 +1d6
15-19 +2d6
20-24 +3d6
25-29 +4d6
30-34 +5d6
35-39 +6d6
40-44 +7d6
45-49 +8d6
50+ +9d6 (maximum)

then cap it out to where you can only benefit from it twice per day (or 24 hour period from first application). ALSO, you could have it get rid of negative levels or ability damage by assigning it to a DC and forgoing the healing dice and using up more than one use of a kit per level or score restored.
(not saying this because i came up with it. BUT OMG this sounds really friggen cool). Also assign it a "cast" time. Instant is not an option lol. It took Mr Miyagi what... almost a full minute to fix Danielsons leg, and that was just bashing damage.

[Waker]

Though I realize you are trying to limit this to ToB, your players may appreciate having access to the Magic of Incarnum classes: Incarnate and Totemist. They are "magic" classes that have their power turned mostly inward. They are both T3, so they match up with the initiators in power. Not to mention the rather Eastern style mysticism goes well with ToB. Like ToB, Incarnum classes are also extremely multiclass friendly.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Hmm.

I'll have to look at the proposed classes, see if I feel like any of them fit.

*Scurries off to dig through sourcebooks*

[Person_Man]

I think everyone who has spent at least 6 months on this forum has homebrewed at least one Discipline, and there are plenty of homebrew base classes as well. (Shameless plug: check the link in my signature). So you have plenty of material to work with.

I would also say that it'd be very easy to put together a healing oriented discipline as well. (Harmony Water? Restoring Breeze? Open Palm?). Just make a list of the most useful/interesting/fun healing/protection spells, and allow them to be used as maneuvers and stances instead. And it'd be easy to homebrew more offensive healing, so that it's not a "waste" of actions. (Touch attack deals XdY + Z per level Negative damage, and heals the same amount in Positive energy to an ally within 30 feet). Given the campaign world you propose, there's no reason to hold it back for fluff reasons.

[Alienist]

Why not try Legend? The pdfs are free to download at the moment, and basically its a swords and sorcery superheroes game with a relatively even playing field.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I think everyone who has spent at least 6 months on this forum has homebrewed at least one Discipline, and there are plenty of homebrew base classes as well. (Shameless plug: check the link in my signature). So you have plenty of material to work with.

Not I, good sir!

I have to say, I like the idea of giving them either a free class skill, or ...someone's suggestion of using Zap Dynamic's Factions.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Alright, I'm doing this. Gonna start with the zodiac, cause that seems like the easiest specific element, after that I'll dig through warriors and wuxia.

Looked up Shujenga and Wu Jen... I'm fairly meh about both of them, and there are specific things I like about having every character be at least in part a martial combatant (it opens up things like intra-party duels, tournaments, etc.) Have yet to make final decision, but I'm leaning towards ToB + Homebrew only for base classes (maybe with something to get into the prestige classes), but have homebrew classes and disciplines that can do the things a mage normally needs to do.

Speaking of which: Things A Mage Normally Needs To Do/Party Roles Not Filled By Tome of Battle. So far we've got healing, what else is on the list that I'll really need to find a way to give to players?

[ArcturusV]

Exploration/Travel utility effects. Flight gets mentioned a lot, but also on the list would be things like waterbreathing, earth glide, passwall, Plane Shift, Teleportation, etc. Some of which you may or may not want to include. Flight isn't the big deal it's made out to be, as long as you don't keep throwing enemies with free flight at the party. Once in a while it can be used for a lop sided encounter where you do want to take them down a peg and make them want to run/hide for story purposes.

Lore is the other big one. Sometimes you want to be able to hand people an answer. Identifying magical items, Legend Loring some tidbits, divinations like Augury, etc. Again, it's something you don't NEED necessarily. Though magic item/gear IDing is pretty important.

Trapfinding is one that we might need for that. I mean without that feature you can't find traps over what, a DC of 20? Which is effectively almost all traps. Again you don't "NEED" it because you don't need to use Traps. But it's one of those things where traps are a nice thing to have from time to time. And without Trapfinding they're basically just "HP Taxes" you have no way to know there is one there, to plan to mitigate it somehow.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

*Nods* Lore will need to be one. I wonder if there are any homebrew disciplines somehow keyed off of knowledge - maybe along the lines of Knowledge Devotion, where you have to roll the knowledge skill relevant to the specific enemy?

Also, I'm considering working in some house rules for item creation - let the ToB classes do so shomehow.

[ArcturusV]

The shortcut would be to allow them to pick up the Ancestral Relic feat, regardless of Alignment. Or to give it to them for free multiple times. So at level 3 you get an Ancestral Relic feat, at level 5, at level 7, etc. Until you think they have a decent number of item slots to do what you think they should do for the power level of the campaign.

That and ancient relics with hidden powers is very much a ToB friendly feel.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Yeah, I'm not too worried about their ability to *get* items - but I think it might be fun from a roleplay perspective to have one of them be a master smith in his own right, or something.

Plus, I'm liking the idea that magic in this setting works differently from standard D&D - right now my notion is that it's twofold. There's "Connection to the spirit world", and then there's the Sublime Way; I like the idea of at least certain items actually being imbued with properties of the Sublime Way, in the way that traditional magic items are imbued with properties of Shiny Wizard Magic.

Almost done with an extremely rough draft of the zodiac; it is neither sensical or balanced, but hopefully it'll work anyway.

[The-Mage-King]

Things to keep in mind-

If your going with a homebrew setting already, there's no need to include things that can't be solved via ToB in some method.

You don't need to put the incorporeal undead in the setting- just have there be Jiang-Si, hopping vampires, ect. You don't need level drain, and can leave it out if it'll be a hassle. Same with ability drain/damage


Why would healing arts dealing with those things not be developed if supernatural martial arts were? Because there was little/no need for them.


If the world is one of warriors solving problems through cunning and skill, why are magic items needed? You could replace the Christmas tree effect with increased stat bonuses at leveling up, (rare) legacy items, Warheart weapons and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5580531), and improved Masterwork items.


For Trapfinding, adapt the PF rules.

Namely, that anyone can find 'em. But rogues/ect get +level to the checks. Or leave them out, aside from

Lore, there are several disciplines with Knowledge as a key skill, but only like two that actually use it at all. Just the Knowledge skills should be enough, though.

[ArcturusV]

Which is always the weird disconnect I've had between DnD Mechanics, and DnD Fiction. The fiction, even though it's written for the system. Even though the authors and editors are suppose to be making sure the story marginally fits into the rules, usually have things like entirely mundane weapon smiths making clearly magical weapons.

So you could just run with that idea. Pluses of the usual type are less "magic" and more just a crafting bit like the Masterwork Component. Special abilities though, less logical. Though you could go with "Riddle Crafting" like older editions where magic item creation often involved things like collecting riddle like, Herculean "Impossible Task" items to assemble into a magic item, or at it's most benign just using rare ingredients that you couldn't just buy...

So the Flaming Property is less "I cast Flame Strike on the weapon" and more like you have Fleshgrinding be "Powdered Dinosaur Teeth ground and mixed into the steel", etc. And Flaming is "I quenched the steel with Red Dragon Blood".

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The Zodiac
{table] Sign | Bonus | Malus | Special
Rat | +2 DEX | -2 STR | Slight Build
Ox | +2 STR | -2 DEX | Strong Build
Tiger | +2 STR | -2 WIS | Power Attack
Rabbit | +2 WIS | -2 CON | Improved Initiative
Dragon | +2 CHA | -2 WIS | Add Charisma to Saves
Snake | +2 DEX | -2 CHA | Combat Reflexes
Horse | +2 CON | -2 Int | Fast Movement +10
Goat | +2 INT | -2 CHA | Knowledge Devotion
Monkey | +2 DEX | -2 CON | Two Weapon Fighting
Rooster | +2 CHA | -2 CON | Add CHA to Allied Checks
Dog | +2 WIS | -2 INT | Scent, Track
Pig | +2 CON | -2 DEX | +2 HP Per Level
[/table]

So, once you all finish laughing, start coming up with better ideas. :smalltongue:

If the bonuses and penalties don't make sense, it's cause I was trying to have two of each for each stat, and make sure the same bonus/penalty combination never appeared twice.

[Person_Man]

Speaking of which: Things A Mage Normally Needs To Do/Party Roles Not Filled By Tome of Battle. So far we've got healing, what else is on the list that I'll really need to find a way to give to players?

Traditional D&D Roles:

Trapfinding: You could give it out as a Feat (you can already get it with 2 Feats via Shape Soulmeld and Open chakra). Or you can just use Pathfinder Perception as a Skill in place of Listen/Spot/Search, and rule that anyone can detect any trap.
Party Face: Crusader.
Melee: Obviously ToB is all over this.
Ranged Attacks: Falling Star (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Falling_Star_Discipline) homebrew. You could also allow Bloodstorm Blade to work with any one discipline.
Healing: Homebrew discipline as I suggested. Or just declare that hit points represent something closer to stamina, and automatically return to full after 10 minutes of rest.
Area of effect ranged attacks: Plenty of Bloodlines/races/feats/magic items offer breath weapons or duplicate area of effect spells. You could also go with the poorly defined spellcasting Swordsage adaptation, but limit them to blasty/exploding stuff. Or you can just use Wu Jen or War Mage, which would be more useful in a world without normal casters.
Illusionist/Enchanter/Trickster: I would just leave this out entirely, or again, use the casting Swordsage adaptation but limit them to Beguiler spells, or just use the Tier 3 Beguiler.
Necromancer/Summoner: I would just leave this out entirely, use casting Swordsage limited to Conjuration, or use the Tier 3 Dread Necromancer.

[Flickerdart]

Those granted abilities are pretty poorly balanced. Horse easily sucks the most, and all the feat granting ones are easily overshadowed by free untyped Divine Grace or the unique racial abilities.

[Callin]

The only one i have an issue with is Dragon. +2 Cha seems right since those born in the year of the dragon are supposed to be honored but the -2 Wis bothers me for some reason, and the Cha to saves makes me shudder.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, my thinking on both of the Charisma ones is that, from what I've seen, Charisma is even more of a dump stat in ToB than anywhere else, cause of the lack of CHA-based casters. So, for the two that got a CHA bonus, I wanted to give them something to do with it.

The horse... yeah, I should come up with something better. Any suggestions?

[Callin]

I think the horse is spot on with everywhere else i have EVER seen the horse done up. The Pig is way OP though, its actually better than Improved Toughness which is only 1 per HD.

The only other way i could see horse being done is by removing some encumbrance penalties.

[ArcturusV]

Probably how I'd go with it. Something like "Medium Armor/Medium Load does not slow you down".

If you want to be even more niche though? Something like "You may make a free attack against any enemy you overrun". Trample, for the Horse. HA!

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Hmm...

"Fast movement as monk, works in medium armor; maintain normal move speed in heavy armor; no movement penalties for medium loads."

[Hyde]

This honestly sounds like a blast.

As far as recovery goes, it might actually be fun to play an eastern setting with legit recovery times. Offhand, you might be able to heal your top half of hit points each night, representing the exertion of combat, but the bottom half represents actual injury, requiring bed rest, or whatever.

Regardless of what you do, this looks fun.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Very Stupid Idea: All HP damage heals with even a short rest; ability damage is taken based on the damage healed.

Also, I'm considering the following just to allow the game to move faster and make the descriptions a bit more often.

Offensive Rolling: Everyone gets a +10 bonus to all saves; you do not roll for saves, instead, the person forcing the save rolls and adds it to the effects DC.

This is just to keep things moving faster - no back-and-forth as the DM or a player has to ask if a creature makes it save.

Open Source Enemies: As DM, I will provide (OOC) the AC, DR, HP and Saves of every enemy. Players can make their rolls, and then describe the results of their actions.

This is just to allow for more interesting and complete descriptions, as players will actually be able to describe their blows landing, killing their enemies, etc.

So: what do people think of these rules (including the really stupid one)?

[Kuulvheysoon]

The Zodiac
{table] Sign | Bonus | Malus | Special
Rat | +2 DEX | -2 STR | Slight Build
Ox | +2 STR | -2 DEX | Strong Build
Tiger | +2 STR | -2 WIS | Power Attack
Rabbit | +2 WIS | -2 CON | Improved Initiative
Dragon | +2 CHA | -2 WIS | Add Charisma to Saves
Snake | +2 DEX | -2 CHA | Combat Reflexes
Horse | +2 CON | -2 Int | Fast Movement +10
Goat | +2 INT | -2 CHA | Knowledge Devotion
Monkey | +2 DEX | -2 CON | Two Weapon Fighting
Rooster | +2 CHA | -2 CON | Add CHA to Allied Checks
Dog | +2 WIS | -2 INT | Scent, Track
Pig | +2 CON | -2 DEX | +2 HP Per Level
[/table]

Hmmm... not a fan of Dragon or Horse. Those are the worse offenders, really. And shouldn't Ox be Powerful Build, not Strong Build?


Very Stupid Idea: All HP damage heals with even a short rest; ability damage is taken based on the damage healed.

Also, I'm considering the following just to allow the game to move faster and make the descriptions a bit more often.

Offensive Rolling: Everyone gets a +10 bonus to all saves; you do not roll for saves, instead, the person forcing the save rolls and adds it to the effects DC.

This is just to keep things moving faster - no back-and-forth as the DM or a player has to ask if a creature makes it save.

Open Source Enemies: As DM, I will provide (OOC) the AC, DR, HP and Saves of every enemy. Players can make their rolls, and then describe the results of their actions.

This is just to allow for more interesting and complete descriptions, as players will actually be able to describe their blows landing, killing their enemies, etc.

So: what do people think of these rules (including the really stupid one)?

Let me get this straight - for the Offensive Rolling, it's basically your save is 10+save bonuses (class, ability scores, items)? And if you force a save (through, say, Five-Shaodw Creeping Ice Enervation strike), you just compare the DC to the provided save?

As for your 'Stupid Idea', it looks interesting. Would it be percentage of HP healed is for the ability damage, or a flat number?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Hmmm... not a fan of Dragon or Horse. Those are the worse offenders, really. And shouldn't Ox be Powerful Build, not Strong Build?



Let me get this straight - for the Offensive Rolling, it's basically your save is 10+save bonuses (class, ability scores, items)? And if you force a save (through, say, Five-Shaodw Creeping Ice Enervation strike), you just compare the DC to the provided save?

As for your 'Stupid Idea', it looks interesting. Would it be percentage of HP healed is for the ability damage, or a flat number?

The mechanics of Offensive Rolling are just there to keep the probabilities about the same, while shifting the actual roll to the other side.

[TuggyNE]

Offensive Rolling: Everyone gets a +10 bonus to all saves; you do not roll for saves, instead, the person forcing the save rolls and adds it to the effects DC.

There's no need for the +10 to all saves; just take out the +10 to effect DCs. (That's where that comes from.) In other words, DCs are d20+half HD+ability modifier, or d20+level+ability modifier.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

There's no need for the +10 to all saves; just take out the +10 to effect DCs. (That's where that comes from.) In other words, DCs are d20+half HD+ability modifier, or d20+level+ability modifier.

Yeah, that would probably be simpler - only reason I didn't was the myth-weavers character sheets, which let you plug in the DCs by hand but auto-calculate saves. Doesn't really matter.

[GreenETC]

I've never done PbP before, but I am actually really interested in this, and would like to join in/see how it goes, since ToB is my favorite 3.5 book.

Crusader is also my favorite base class in the book, if that matters.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

We be recruiting! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14967762#post14967762)