Help DMing a tiny bard!

[Exie]

Hello everyone, lovely weather today! Except the rain.

So I'm DMing for a tiny fey bard (Petal), and the character can do some amazing things that are rather silly. I need to reign the character in some, and need help because I am a bad rules lawyer. :(

I'm thinking of a few things here.

1 - The character is tiny. My thumb is larger than its lungs. Can the other PCs hear the bard in a heated battle? What DC should it be to listen to the bard (and I'll add +1 per 10 feet)?
2 - I sing. I sing a lot. It's terrifyingly bad. But I've noticed that even when howling along to a song, its amazingly more difficult if I'm moving. I was in marching band and played a trumpet - you had to move very carefully to avoid making dumb noises. That leads to a few penalties I can think of.
2a - Make the character do a skill/ability check to sing on rounds when the bard does other things? What happens if the bard fails?
2b - reduce the bard's movement speed on rounds when it sings
2c - disallow the bard to attack while singing (archer)

...Those are all of my ideas. My game starts soon, so I'd love some input. Thanks guys and gals!

[Daftendirekt]

Nothing says that bardic music has to be singing. There are plenty of instruments:



Wind instruments - These face the same problems as singing. Moving makes it much harder to play properly.
Percussion - I think this would work well. Running or flying along with a war drum could be kind of cool
String instrument - Picture a tiny fey creature rocking out on a guitar. Hell yes.

[Exie]

The player wanted to sing, because that way the bard can make its music on the same round it makes a full attack with a bow.

Sooo singing it is. It also matches her fey race.

[Whisper rider]

Hello everyone, lovely weather today! Except the rain.

So I'm DMing for a tiny fey bard (Petal), and the character can do some amazing things that are rather silly. I need to reign the character in some, and need help because I am a bad rules lawyer. :(

I'm thinking of a few things here.

1 - The character is tiny. My thumb is larger than its lungs. Can the other PCs hear the bard in a heated battle? What DC should it be to listen to the bard (and I'll add +1 per 10 feet)?
2 - I sing. I sing a lot. It's terrifyingly bad. But I've noticed that even when howling along to a song, its amazingly more difficult if I'm moving. I was in marching band and played a trumpet - you had to move very carefully to avoid making dumb noises. That leads to a few penalties I can think of.
2a - Make the character do a skill/ability check to sing on rounds when the bard does other things? What happens if the bard fails?
2b - reduce the bard's movement speed on rounds when it sings
2c - disallow the bard to attack while singing (archer)

...Those are all of my ideas. My game starts soon, so I'd love some input. Thanks guys and gals!

well.. i onced played a bard, it was a halfling and used to usea a wand of reduce person, to go tiny... those are some pretty good bonuses you get there.
it seem that basicly you are trying to find a way to... ahmm ¨Screw¨ your player.. first of all its a BARD, how can bad can it be on battle.. i mean, unless he uses all those nasty combos (wich i used to use :P jejeje) hes not actually giving any REAL overwhelming advantage over the anemy.

1- inspire courage its a (SU).. it really doesnt matter if you are a... colossal red dreagon bard.. in that case.. those lungs would be really large... that doesnt mean those 30 miles away would be able to hear him an resive the bonuses. So yes your bard is a cats size bard.. but you can still hear a cat meow in a kitchen full of people talking with the sound of a microwave and music playing, so in my opinion you should be awarding penalties for being really small. besides the DC for listening anything in battle its 0.

2- You cant compare a bard singing, to your trumpet skills at a marching band, i mean while in the band i bet its really complicated to be standing in line behind bunch of people while remembering all you have to remember, but i think a bard who has spend almost all his live singing (not playing an instrument) knows how to do it while in danger just as a wizard knows how to say the right words and do the somatics of an spell (standar action just as the bard singing) besies its D&D you are fighting dragons and stuff.. singing wont be much of a problem.

2a- it depends on what de bard its doing, if he is swiming i wouldnd allow him to sing if he is running he might have to make some checks after a while but at least could do it
2b- why would you reduce the movement? you can talk while walking. a wizar or cleric can cast and move.. why woulnt the bard be able to do the same at the corresponding speed.
3c- singing its the one thing that allows you to attack while performing, my bard use to play the drums. i had to stop playing to be able to do it. so in my opinion it would be unffair. although.. my DM used to tell me that if i where going to just sit there and do nothing... at leas i had to spend my move action to perform.

well thats my input, hopefully it would help you, but be carefull on how you rule this, you might be ruining the little fun a bard can have some times.

[Flickerdart]

Don't add mechanical penalties for no reason other than it seems "more realistic" to you. If you introduce house rules, make sure that they actually help balance and don't just punish players.

[Urpriest]

Here's the relevant question: as you mentioned in the OP, you're worried about your bard being too powerful. What particular things are you worried about?

[Felandria]

String instrument - Picture a tiny fey creature rocking out on a guitar. Hell yes.
[/LIST]

I saw that wrong and immediately pictured Tina Fey shredding on a Gibson.

[Jack_Simth]

The player wanted to sing, because that way the bard can make its music on the same round it makes a full attack with a bow.No, he can't:

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. (emphasis added, specific text from Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#bardicMusic))

Now let's look at some of the bardic music abilities....
Countersong: This one does not include the concentration clause... but it's also only a bit of defence against a small number of effects.
Fascinate: requires concentration.
Inspire Courage: Doesn't explicitly require concentration... but also lasts for five rounds after you're done singing, so it hardly matters for most battles.
Inspire Competence: Explicitly requires concentration.
Suggestion: Doesn't actually take an action at all.
Inspire Greatness: Doesn't explicitly require concentration... but also lasts for five rounds after you're done singing, so it hardly matters for most battles.
Song of Freedom: Not a continuous effect, but explicitly requires one minute of concentration.
Inspire Heroics: Doesn't explicitly require concentration... but also lasts for five rounds after you're done singing, so it hardly matters for most battles.
Mass Suggestion: Inherits from Suggestion, and doesn't actually take an action at all.

[Daftendirekt]

I saw that wrong and immediately pictured Tina Fey shredding on a Gibson.

Even cooler.

[JusticeZero]

Er, what exactly is "too powerful"? Nothing comes to mind immediately that being "tiny" would do that would kick the bard upstairs to anywhere remotely close to the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard in power. Plus, they use a bow.

There aren't many classes that can't do some things that make a new GM go 'zomg too powerful'. This gets dramatically more over the top at upper levels, which is one reason why one of the most popular rule variants is to cut character advancement off at the knees at level 6 and switch to just feats.

Just trust in RAW for now, because most of the people who start GMing see lots of overpoweredness in weird places - like the people who keep trying to nerf Rogue sneak attack, not realizing that the Rogue is so underpowered compared to the wide-selection full casters that that, Evasion, and blatant abuse of UMD are the only things that keep them even remotely relevant to anything. I've even seen people trying to claim that Monks are overpowered.

[denthor]

Hello everyone, lovely weather today! Except the rain.

So I'm DMing for a tiny fey bard (Petal), and the character can do some amazing things that are rather silly. I need to reign the character in some, and need help because I am a bad rules lawyer. :(

I'm thinking of a few things here.

1 - The character is tiny. My thumb is larger than its lungs. Can the other PCs hear the bard in a heated battle? What DC should it be to listen to the bard (and I'll add +1 per 10 feet)?
2 - I sing. I sing a lot. It's terrifyingly bad. But I've noticed that even when howling along to a song, its amazingly more difficult if I'm moving. I was in marching band and played a trumpet - you had to move very carefully to avoid making dumb noises. That leads to a few penalties I can think of.
2a - Make the character do a skill/ability check to sing on rounds when the bard does other things? What happens if the bard fails?
2b - reduce the bard's movement speed on rounds when it sings
2c - disallow the bard to attack while singing (archer)

...Those are all of my ideas. My game starts soon, so I'd love some input. Thanks guys and gals!


Way off topic. There was a Celtic war god that wielded two spears. She would give a 10% chance of noticeing any warrior that was signing during battle and taking blows. It was required that her worshipers did this.


The above is for flavor if you want to create an opportunity to give a mission.




Er, what exactly is "too powerful"? Nothing comes to mind immediately that being "tiny" would do that would kick the bard upstairs to anywhere remotely close to the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard in power. There aren't many classes that can't do some things that make a new GM go 'zomg too powerful'. This gets dramatically more over the top at upper levels, which is one reason why one of the most popular rule variants is to cut character advancement off at the knees at level 6 and switch to just feats. Just trust in RAW for now, because most of the people who start GMing see lots of overpoweredness in weird places - like the people who keep trying to nerf Rogue sneak attack, not realizing that the Rogue is so underpowered compared to the wide-selection full casters that that, Evasion, and blatant abuse of UMD are the only things that keep them even remotely relevant to anything. I've seen people trying to claim that Monks are overpowered.

A fairy can be invisible at will and fly that is very powerful in a low level to mid level campaign.

Since this character wants to sing make it easier for the opponents to find the correct square that the fey is in. Listen check rather than a 50% miss chance becomes a 25% if the hearing is accute or listen check is over 25.

This of course means the player can use a tree for cover the top of a roof take cover behind another player.

[JusticeZero]

A fairy can be invisible at will and fly that is very powerful in a low level to mid level campaign..
That's an issue with the character being a FAIRY, not with them being a BARD. BARD abilities are being talked about here. It doesn't matter WHAT class you are, being able to turn invisible and buzz around the sky is going to be pretty over the top. You should be GLAD they ONLY decided to play a Bard with those abilities. And should seriously consider that you maybe should not have allowed the Fairy race choice.

[Jack_Simth]

A fairy can be invisible at will and fly that is very powerful in a low level to mid level campaign.Per the OP, this one is a petal (monster manual III, page 120), not a pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie). Petals do not get Greater Invisibility at will (they do fly, though).

[Crake]

The character is tiny. My thumb is larger than its lungs.

I think you're overestimating how small tiny actually is. A petal is significantly larger than say, tinkerbelle from peter pan or navi from zelda. They stand 1.5 feet, although only weigh 3 pounds (which is a significant drop from 20lb and 2 feet tall coure eladrin and 30lb and 2.5 feet tall pixies) Just remember that thematically, if you were to stand on someone's shoulder, you'd be level with their head, not their ear, you aren't THAT small.

[Malimar]

What Jack_Simth said. Understand Standard Actions and Concentration, and you shall see that the bard's nefarious plan to be more powerful than you'd like doesn't even work.



A fairy can be invisible at will and fly that is very powerful in a low level to mid level campaign.

Petals can't turn invisible. (A bard can, but not until 4th level, and not at will.)


The thing that's actually at all powerful at low levels is flight (as mentioned), DR 5/cold iron, and the massive racial Dex, Cha, Con, and Int bonuses.

Best counter: spellcasters. If you want to challenge the petal, don't bother targeting AC or Reflex: target Will and Fortitude instead (but note that a petal is immune to anything that targets a Humanoid, like Hold Person). Or try to make the petal flat-footed and use cold iron weapons. Or just use Magic Missile.

Also, Petals have a +2 level adjustment (and are rare in that they're actually almost worth it). Make absolutely certain you grok what that means (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928).

[Urpriest]

What Jack_Simth said. Understand Standard Actions and Concentration, and you shall see that the bard's nefarious plan to be more powerful than you'd like doesn't even work.


I don't think we have any evidence that this is the bard's plan, though. The bard wants to sing rather than playing an instrument in order to use a bow, that doesn't mean the two are supposed to happen on the same turn. Bard sings, next turn bard makes full attack with bow. If the bard was using an instrument, this couldn't happen without quick draw or the like.

[Flickerdart]

If the bard was using an instrument, this couldn't happen without quick draw or the like.
Perform: Kazoo. :smallbiggrin:

[denthor]

To those that corrected me.

Ok I made a mistake.

You can still use color spray if the Fey gets to close. watch the pattern of the spray most people do not realize they are lining up for the range.


Crake
They stand 1.5 feet, although only weigh 3 pounds

Mid level have a hawk attack for a grab. Even if the Hawk only soars away for say two rounds and disappears. You get the following effects:


Bard stops singing
Bard can not cast spells
Bard needs the same amount of rounds or more to get back to the fight

Note this should not be used every fight if an opponent engages and get away safely then if the correct personnel are capable use it then

Better for all

[Exie]

The bard's combination of classes allows it to add 6d6 sonic damage to allies who can hear the bard, plus five rounds after. That damage dwarfs the melee's damage (2d6+17), and applies to everyone. The cleric shot an ogre with a sling (1d3-2) and delt over 25 damage.

I forget at the moment the exact build, but its paladin of freedom, prestige bard, wizard lvl 1, and perhaps something else.

[Flickerdart]

The bard's combination of classes allows it to add 6d6 sonic damage to allies who can hear the bard, plus five rounds after. That damage dwarfs the melee's damage (2d6+17), and applies to everyone. .
6d6 is an average of 21 damage. 2d6+17 is an average of 24 damage.

[Urpriest]

The bard's combination of classes allows it to add 6d6 sonic damage to allies who can hear the bard, plus five rounds after. That damage dwarfs the melee's damage (2d6+17), and applies to everyone. The cleric shot an ogre with a sling (1d3-2) and delt over 25 damage.

I forget at the moment the exact build, but its paladin of freedom, prestige bard, wizard lvl 1, and perhaps something else.


6d6 is an average of 21 damage. 2d6+17 is an average of 24 damage.

So dwarfs is probably the wrong word. Still, doubling the party's damage is potentially quite powerful. That said, what level is this character? It's hard to get 6d6 before higher levels. Is Words of Creation being used?

[Exie]

Word of creation is indeed being used. But we also have a cleric/RSoP, so the subdual damage vanishes almost instantly.

[Kazyan]

You could find a situation that makes things difficult on the Petal, but not enough to make her irrelevant. Strong winds, for example, could drown out her voice outside of a small radius or keep her checked. Or a grappler could ruin her day and require some help from the party, as suggested. Or a source of Strength damage, such as a Roper, would make the player immediately understand the danger.

[Exie]

Well, the character has a Small dragonfly (using Dire Bat statistics) mount.

The bard is a Pally of Freedom with Prestige Bard and a PrC (can't recall, but lets bard and pally stack for mount and etc). It has 2 strength iirc.

It would be reasonable to Grapple the bard off of its mount, if the npc can fly to it. Strength drain would also be devastating. I like the idea of a strong wind. Currently, its Deepwinter in the campaign setting, and they occasionally experience "whiteouts" which are violent snowstorms. It's arguable that the strong wind and lack of vision make it impossible to not only hear the bard but also just suck for combat.

Does using her +damage bard ability require concentration?

[Kazyan]

It doesn't say it requires concentration, so it presumably doesn't.

For the grappler angle, maybe you could use an advance/class-leveled flock of harpies. Ooh, and let them sing. Require opposed Perform checks to out-sing them, losing d6s from the DFI for every few points that the Petal fails. More harpies joining the song is Aid Another. Of course, a perform check that beats the harpies by the same margins will decrease the save DCs of their songs, by 1 per increment or something.

[Gnome Alone]

Is anyone else picturing Tina Fey as an actual fey and all tiny? Tiny Tina Fey? Tina the Fey? Tiny fey Tina Fey?

[Metahuman1]

Suggest the bard get a Harmonizing Armor Spikes or some such, and just let her have her fun.


If you REALLY feel the need to Nerf her, have them fight and enchanter who's dominated a really low int Half Minotaur Goliath Monk, who proceeds to grapple your little fairy, but forgets to do actual damage because his mental stats are in the ground.

DM: Ok, you can't move, attack, cast, or sing, until you get out of his hug.

Player: DAMN IT!

[Daftendirekt]

Is anyone else picturing Tina Fey as an actual fey and all tiny? Tiny Tina Fey? Tina the Fey? Tiny fey Tina Fey?

Yes, and it reminds me of this:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/957272eadd143f93b49cc186b001d78c/tumblr_mh59xqWVzp1ryu57to1_500.jpg

[Urpriest]

Targeting the bard with things Petals are vulnerable to won't solve the fact that you think too much damage is being added since being a Petal has nothing to do with the 6d6 dragonfire inspiration damage.

Why don't you post the build so we can make sure everything is legal. If it is, there may be some rulings to help you out, or depending on the level it may be that the rest of your party could improve to be comparable.

[Invader]

Targeting the bard with things Petals are vulnerable to won't solve the fleet you think too much damage is being added since being a Petal has nothing to do with the 6d6 dragonfire inspiration damage.

Why don't you post the build since can make sure everything is legal. If it is, there may be some rulings to help you out, or depending on the level it may be that the rest of your party could improve to be comparable.

I agree with this.

Youre losing bard levels from multi classing plus from the Petals LA but you're still high enough level to get 6d6 damage from DFI. Youre group has to be over 12th level or so at which point and extra 6d6 attack damage shouldn't be making that much difference. Something doesn't seem to be adding up.

[Exie]

Level 1 - Petal (Bought off 2nd LA)
Level 2 - Paladin of freedom 1
Level 3 - Paladin of freedom 2
Level 4 - Paladin of freedom 3
Level 5 - Paladin of freedom 4
Level 6 - Paladin of freedom 5
Level 7 - Wizard (Variant: improved inititive, lose scribe scroll. Cohort instead of familiar)
Level 8 - Prestige Bard

Feats: Devoted Performer, Theurgic Mount, Charm the Arrow, Dragonfire Inspiration, Improvied Initiative, Initiate of Milil

Problem one is that this is an ECL 9, and she should be ECL 8. I'll review the character sheet and post again.

[Flickerdart]

Well, the character has a Small dragonfly (using Dire Bat statistics) mount.
A Small creature with the stats of a Large one? What?

[Exie]

A Small creature with the stats of a Large one? What?

We changed some stats to make it reasonable.

[Invader]

Don't you also take 1 racial hit die for playing a Petal? And I'm not sure about this but the get weapon finesse as a bonus feat iirc but I don't see that in the feats. I didn't think you were allowed to pick anything in lieu of the bonus feat you have.

[Invader]

And where is the 6d6 dfi bonus all coming from?

[Fortuna]

I'm fairly certain that doubling IC with Words of Creation requires the feat of the same name, which I don't see on your feat list. That issue aside, I can't see anything in the things being used here that stacks Ṕaladin and Bard for Inspire Courage (which would be dubious anyway, given that prestige bard has an accelerated inspire courage progression, but I digress), meaning that +3 of IC is coming from somewhere unidentified.

[Urpriest]

Level 1 - Petal (Bought off 2nd LA)
Level 2 - Paladin of freedom 1
Level 3 - Paladin of freedom 2
Level 4 - Paladin of freedom 3
Level 5 - Paladin of freedom 4
Level 6 - Paladin of freedom 5
Level 7 - Wizard (Variant: improved inititive, lose scribe scroll. Cohort instead of familiar)
Level 8 - Prestige Bard

Feats: Devoted Performer, Theurgic Mount, Charm the Arrow, Dragonfire Inspiration, Improvied Initiative, Initiate of Milil

Problem one is that this is an ECL 9, and she should be ECL 8. I'll review the character sheet and post again.

Hmm...
This actually does look to be ECL 8, though, provided the LA was fairly bought off. I assume that the first RHD was traded in?

None of those feats add to Bard level for purposes of Inspire Courage bonus, so the character at base only has Inspire Courage +1. They aren't high enough level for Inspirational Boost and they don't have Song of the Heart. Are they using a Vest of Legends?

Regardless, they don't qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, since they don't have the Dragonblood subtype. Even if they did, they don't have the Draconic Heritage feat or Half-Dragon, so they deal fire, not sonic damage (which many monsters will resist, including most Outsiders).

I thought you said they had Words of Creation? As-is, they have several feats they can't buy due to not having enough feat slots (can't take Devoted Performer or Dragonfire Inspiration before having Bardic Music, which is gained at 7HD, so not for another two levels, since Initiate of Milil doesn't grant bardic music if you don't have it already).

[Gnome Alone]

We changed some stats to make it reasonable.

That way lies madness.

@Daftendirekt: THANK YOU.
(Legless Lego Legolas looks like he used to be hella fat. Before his legs got chopped - I mean, hewn - off, I guess.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

That issue aside, I can't see anything in the things being used here that stacks Ṕaladin and Bard for Inspire Courage (which would be dubious anyway, given that prestige bard has an accelerated inspire courage progression, but I digress), meaning that +3 of IC is coming from somewhere unidentified.

I am assuming its from an interpretation of the Initiate of Milil. The feat says you can stack Paladin/Cleric and Bard for determining bardic music you can use, but it doesn't say that it scales IC; you could interpret it to mean that it does. Urpriest already showed that she has 3 too many feats, so that would be most of why she is overpowered.

[Urpriest]

I am assuming its from an interpretation of the Initiate of Milil. The feat says you can stack Paladin/Cleric and Bard for determining bardic music you can use, but it doesn't say that it scales IC; you could interpret it to mean that it does. Urpriest already showed that she has 3 too many feats, so that would be most of why she is overpowered.

The feat Initiate of Milil explicitly says what it does. It makes levels stack to determine what abilities you get, not the power of those abilities, so IC won't scale.