What Gestalts with Warblade? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Glimbur

2013-03-23, 04:30 PM

Cleric. Wis synergy, full casting, etc.

Rogue. Sneak attack is nice, you get a few more skill points. If you hit level 10+ the special abilities can be good.

Barbarian. Full BAB is kind of nice, but you probably don't want to gestalt two ToB classes. Rage is a decent passive buff. Fighter or Paladin also work for similar reasons, but fighter is fighter and Paladin brings a desire for Cha.

Factotum, but all you get out of that is class features and class skills because the chassis overlap so much. Also needs Int.

Totemist or Incarnate. You'd have to learn Magic of Incarnum but they are covered in passive buffs.

Scout, if you get maneuvers that make you move and attack. Or even without, because strikes are standard action attacks so you can move and attack.

Ninja, if you have maneuvers to activate Sudden Strike.

Greenish

2013-03-23, 04:48 PM

I like Ranger, actually. Full BAB, free TWF (without needing to pump Dex) or Archery (for more versatility, some maneuvers also work with ranged), complimentary skill list, good Fort, and some of the spells are pretty handy without being too much of a focus. Animal Companion you'd probably want to trade out, though, but Urban Companion (Cityscape Web Enhancement) gets you (perhaps literal) skillmonkey companion that shares your skills, and Solitary Hunter (somewhere) gets you something. Eventually (but too late) gets you Camouflage and HiPS.

Fighter. You don't want that many levels, but full BAB, good Fort, bonus feats, and some of the variants and ACFs are cool, such as Hit and Run Tactics (DotU) or the ones from Dragon Mag #310.

Barbarian, as pointed out above. Ferocity (Cityscape Web Enhancement) in place of Rage boosts Str and Dex. Also lets you qualify for many fancy PrCs.

Paladin. Serenity (Dragon Compendium, Dragon #306) keys all that Charisma-stuff to Wisdom, some of the spells are grand, and you get a pony that's smarter than you.

Meldshapers generally gestalt great with anything, as mentioned.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 04:52 PM

mregecko

2013-03-23, 04:58 PM

Beguiler, possibly with some prc's.

Greenish

2013-03-23, 05:10 PM

Well, rage is what you fluff it, but each for their own. I admit I was halfaway done with the list before I noticed the ninja bit (SS gestalts are a favourite :smalltongue:), but swordsage should provide that amply.

Now, the Cityscape Web Enhancement I mentioned is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (scroll way down for Urban Companion), and you'll probably want to check the other parts too, lots of nice sneaky stuff.

Other ACFs, well, Dungeonscape gets you Trapfinding instead of Track. PHBII lets you trade Animal Companion for better flanking. CM has Arcane Hunter, for Favored Enemy (Arcanist). Wild Shape Ranger from UA is obviously great, but that won't come online for a while, and might not fit your concept (though once you go into Master of Many Forms, you'll be a real scary shapeshifting assassin).

white lancer

2013-03-23, 05:23 PM

I like Ranger, actually. Full BAB, free TWF (without needing to pump Dex) or Archery (for more versatility, some maneuvers also work with ranged), complimentary skill list, good Fort, and some of the spells are pretty handy without being too much of a focus. Animal Companion you'd probably want to trade out, though, but Urban Companion (Cityscape Web Enhancement) gets you (perhaps literal) skillmonkey companion that shares your skills, and Solitary Hunter (somewhere) gets you something. Eventually (but too late) gets you Camouflage and HiPS.

I agree with this one. I'm currently running a Ranger/Swordsage at high levels and it's a lot of fun--I imagine it'd be even better in Gestalt. Focus on Tiger Claw maneuvers (with some Shadow Hand in there for good measure) and you wind up as a solid TWFer with helpful maneuvers and spells. All good saves is nice as well. Maybe you could even go Swordsage on one side and Swift Hunter on the other? Skirmish damage couldn't hurt especially with some of the maneuvers you get.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-03-23, 05:33 PM

Maybe go Fighter with Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) and the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels (reflavored). Although if he's small size, that's a -4 to Intimidate vs medium opponents, even worse if they're bigger.

Warblade would actually be a good choice, it takes care of your BAB, Fort save, and gets those d12 HD. On top of that you can put your most often used maneuvers on Warblade for the better recovery mechanic, and you don't have to spend your limited Warblade maneuvers based on what you want to qualify for later on. Note that a given maneuver is either known or it's not, you can't learn the same maneuver for both classes. The same goes for if it's readied or not, you can't ready the same maneuver multiple times like they're spells.

I'll agree that Beguiler is an extremely strong choice for utility and interaction. The chassis is a bit redundant as it would be two high-skill classes, but its spell list is probably the absolute best thing you can add to this type of character.

Duskblade gets full BAB and a good Fort save, and if you take at least one level of Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard) then you can pick your Duskblade spells known from the Bard spell list, which would be almost as good as gaining Beguiler casting with it. Bards often served as spies and similar, so it would still be fitting for this type of character, just trade most of the music for alternate class features.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 05:49 PM

I agree with this one. I'm currently running a Ranger/Swordsage at high levels and it's a lot of fun--I imagine it'd be even better in Gestalt. Focus on Tiger Claw maneuvers (with some Shadow Hand in there for good measure) and you wind up as a solid TWFer with helpful maneuvers and spells. All good saves is nice as well. Maybe you could even go Swordsage on one side and Swift Hunter on the other? Skirmish damage couldn't hurt especially with some of the maneuvers you get.

I'm going unarmed sword sage - was planning on trading away the TWF for shapeshifting and extra speed. I do like skirmish damage, but I'm less fond of the three-level dip I'd need to get it. Dunno.

gallagher

2013-03-23, 06:02 PM

I agree with the Duskblade suggestion. Many of your maneuvers will be standard attacks. Channelling spells is a standard attack. Ask your DM if you can do both with one because rule of cool.

Urpriest

2013-03-23, 06:11 PM

I'm going unarmed sword sage - was planning on trading away the TWF for shapeshifting and extra speed. I do like skirmish damage, but I'm less fond of the three-level dip I'd need to get it. Dunno.

If you go with Wild Shape ranger, it probably deserves focus, you should avoid dipping stuff that doesn't increase your Wild Shape.

Are you a Halfling? An alternative idea for a Setting Sun-focused character would involve the Hin Fist substitution levels for Monk, building into an other-killer-gnome-esque tripping build.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 06:14 PM

If you go with Wild Shape ranger, it probably deserves focus, you should avoid dipping stuff that doesn't increase your Wild Shape.

Are you a Halfling? An alternative idea for a Setting Sun-focused character would involve the Hin Fist substitution levels for Monk, building into an other-killer-gnome-esque tripping build.

Wild shape ranger is where again?

And I think that skirmish damage is a pretty significant benefit to this character - also, I have officially decided that this character is going to Not Die. My characters always Die, and this one is going to live by virtue of stupidly high saves and every AC bonus I can get. >_<

Tvtyrant

2013-03-23, 06:15 PM

Factotum and lots of Font of Inspiration can let you use multiple strikes per round, which is always nice.

Shadowcaster gets you a few really nice spells, and Swordsage deals with the lack of SpD that low level Shadowcasters get.

Greenish

2013-03-23, 06:21 PM

Wild shape ranger is where again?UA/SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), and I agree with Urpriest, a few situational d6's is not going to beat Wildshaping advancement, especially when it comes staying alive. For that, also check Warshaper (CW, bonus Str/Con, immunity to crits, fast healing).

navar100

2013-03-23, 06:58 PM

If any source is available, then psychic warrior or psion could allow for a "mystic". Psionic points are your "ki". Psychic warrior to keep the warrior aspect and only want a dash of "ki"; psion if you don't mind having more.

Warblade is fine too. You can focus on Iron Heart and White Raven with it. I suppose though this is more a mechanical synergy. If you forgo Iron Heart and stress White Raven and Diamond Mind so that Swordsage can focus on Setting Sun and Shadow Hand it might fit the concept better. Full BAB and d12 hit points help a lot as well.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 07:18 PM

Thanks for the help everyone, but I think I've settled on Ranger.

Mr Adventurer

2013-03-23, 07:28 PM

Favoured Enemy (arcanists) is the BALLS - it applies to creatures who have spell-like abilities, and how many monsters DON'T have those - especially at mid to high levels?

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 07:47 PM

Urpriest

2013-03-23, 08:00 PM

Next question: What gestalts with Warblade?

Level 8, 30 point buy. Aiming for almost the complete opposite with this character- this guy is angry, impulsive, egotistical, almost out of control. Considering making him into a spiked chain trip build, but with a much greater emphasis on brutality than finesse.

Angry, impulsive, and since it's a Warblade, Int-based...I'm thinking Psion, into Anarchic Initiate.

Jack_Simth

2013-03-23, 08:02 PM

Next question: What gestalts with Warblade?

Level 8, 30 point buy. Aiming for almost the complete opposite with this character- this guy is angry, impulsive, egotistical, almost out of control. Considering making him into a spiked chain trip build, but with a much greater emphasis on brutality than finesse.
Either Factotum (for the extra actions) or Psion(Egoist) for the various self-buffs. A psion(Telepath) might be good (for Schism), although you'll need to dump a hefty number of feats into Expanded Power Knoweledge.

Greenish

2013-03-23, 08:07 PM

Next question: What gestalts with Warblade?

Level 8, 30 point buy. Aiming for almost the complete opposite with this character- this guy is angry, impulsive, egotistical, almost out of control. Considering making him into a spiked chain trip build, but with a much greater emphasis on brutality than finesse.Bard. Be the angry war skald, spitting foam and ancient warchants from your bearded lips as you cleave into the enemy with your battle axe!

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 08:19 PM

It's very stupid of me, but part of me is actually leaning Barbarian.

...is there any way to get Rage without being a Barbarian?

My concept for this guy is that he was born into a wealthy, well-connected family, but has always had issues; he's got no capacity for introspection, no impulse control, etc.

He's currently with a group that are working to bring down the city, and I imagine even they would be less-than-at-ease with him; he's completely the sort to just lose it and beat someone to death with his bare hands, etc. Think... Gregor Clegane.

Greenish

2013-03-23, 08:30 PM

Half-orc paragon, druidic avenger, singh rager, off the top of my head.

Kazyan

2013-03-23, 08:31 PM

Druidic Avenger gives you Rage by trading out the Animal Companion, but that sounds less in line with the character than flat Barbarian. Honestly, that persona sounds like a cut-and-dry Ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) Barbarian.

ArcturusV

2013-03-23, 08:38 PM

Sohei if you want Quasi-Rage as well. I actually like the Sohei Class myself, but it's "Rage" (Which counts as Rage for PrCs and such), does Strength and Dex, not Con, but the duration is Con Modifier Rounds.

Gnome Alone

2013-03-23, 09:03 PM

Barbarian seems like a good match to me - I don't see why it'd be stupid. He's already a warblade; he'll do fine.

Are these guys like leader & cohort, or is the campaign some kind of gleeful monstrosity where everyone runs two gestalt characters?

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-23, 09:07 PM

No, actually, it's two completely different campaigns. *Shrugs*

Main reason I thought Barbarian would be stupid was that both classes get the same BAB, the same hit dice, the same saves, the same proficiencies, and some of the same class features.

...yeah, it's a stupid choice.

Greenish

2013-03-23, 09:19 PM

Well, one level and Extra Rage feat would get you what you want. Then, say, feat rogue to dread commando or something.

Jeff the Green

2013-03-23, 09:42 PM

Maybe a Chaotic Incarnate to be chaos incarnate? Or combine that with the previous suggestions to get a soulcaster.

Edit: Or a totemist and focus on maneuvers that allow full attacks.

Metahuman1

2013-03-23, 10:09 PM

Binder might be nice here. There Versatile, reasonably powerful, and have a bunch of spiffy tricks.

Shadowcraft adept could help the sneaky thing out quite abit, particularly with Warblade on the other side to sure up your offensive ability's.

Tvtyrant

2013-03-23, 10:34 PM

Persistomancy Chameleon. Boost yourself up with a ton of persistant buffs and use strikes to kill things.

Qc Storm

2013-03-23, 10:44 PM

Barbarian would probably be good from a purely mechanical standpoint, but doesn't fit with the flavour I've got for this guy.

He's very focused on the philosophy of the Setting Sun discipline, a big part of which is that he doesn't actually believe that he's strong, or that strength is important; he's subtle, he's quick, he's precise, but rage just doesn't fit in with it. Paladin is likewise out.

You make a quite compelling case for ranger - I'd need to see what I could trade out with ACFs.

Fighter may actually get in - if I were starting at anything but 3rd level, I'd be more likely to pick it. Bonus feats sound fun, and it fills in the only issues I have with Swordsage (the lack of BAB and the poor fort save.)

If you like Setting Sun, then Factotum is a good choice I think. You get Intelligence to STR checks, which are used with most SS maneuvers. Intelligence also synergies well with many Warblade abilities.

As a bonus, you get the rest of the factotum stuff like infinite skills, lay on hands, turn undead, spellcasting, inspiration, etc.

Larkas

2013-03-23, 11:11 PM

If you want to get Rage on that build, why don't you simply multiclass the Warblade side? As far as I know, multiclassing a Warblade can be quite benign, what with other classes adding to IL and all.

Metahuman1

2013-03-23, 11:33 PM

Maybe he want's stance mastery?

dspeyer

2013-03-24, 09:36 AM

For the angry warblade, how about psychic warrior / war hulk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a)? All the War Hulk powers only kick in when you manifest Expansion, but you can manifest that a lot. This also helps because you can dismiss Expansion to avoid No Time To Think. You can fluff it as channelling your inner anger. Very hulk.

Draz74

2013-03-24, 10:02 AM

For the not-angry Warblade, another excellent possibility that wasn't mentioned is Psychic Rogue. Fits like a glove. Probably still inferior to 8 levels of Factotum, though.

gorfnab

2013-03-24, 02:53 PM

Artificer fits nicely with Warblade, especially when you choose Warforged for the race.

Vaz

2013-03-24, 07:30 PM

Kung Fu Genius Invisible Fist Monk of the Passive Way with Swashbuckler, going into Spiked Chain (or Failing that, Rapier), backed up by Wu Jen/Incantatrix Persisto-mancer.

gallagher

2013-03-24, 07:45 PM

For a big raging machine, look at the Runescarred Berserker prestige class on your non-initiator side. It is ridiculously easy to qualify for, and gets you almost everything that a 20 level barb gets you in a 10 level prestige class, plus it gets you some neat spells that only require touching, so you can activate them in a rage, and it gets you an antimagic field. At level 8 you could be a

Barbarian1/AnythingYouFreakingWant6/Runescarred Berserker 1//Warblade 8

Alternate, if you are a half orc (I suggest Desert Half Orc) You can take Half Orc Paragon levels for a rage.

I suggest Psychic Warrior with that direction. Pick up some utility powers and some bonus feats. Strength of my Enemy would be pretty awesome with that guy

Scow2

2013-03-24, 08:20 PM

If you don't mind 5-way MAD, pump CHA a bit as well and go Warmage. Blaster Caster on top of Melee Monster. Focus on damage spells instead of Saves.

Or go Scout, and capitalize on the extra skill points, flexible class abilities, and Skirmish bonus damage and defense.

Kane0

2013-03-24, 09:33 PM

My concept for this guy is that he was born into a wealthy, well-connected family, but has always had issues; he's got no capacity for introspection, no impulse control, etc.

Aiming for almost the complete opposite with this character- this guy is angry, impulsive, egotistical, almost out of control

I second scout. Most things you would be doing are swift, immediate or standard actions anyway so the Skirmish bonus from moving goes well with Warblade Maneuvers.
Plus skills, useful abilities, etc.

Scout goes well with the uninhibited nature of who you're describing, impulsive and brash. Favor Tiger Claw and other schools instead of the disciplined ones like Diamond mind or Iron Heart to show that lack of restraint.

Man on Fire

2013-03-25, 08:59 AM

Fighter or Paladin also work for similar reasons, but fighter is fighter and Paladin brings a desire for Cha.

Fighter in gestalt is a pretty good choice, you'll have more feats than you'll ever need.

Another suggestion - Psychic Warrior. Feats + Psionic powers. What not to love?

magwaaf

2013-03-25, 11:07 AM

Factotum goes fairly well with it, especially if you can convince your DM to allow Kung Fu Genius to work for a swordsage. You might look for a full BAB class. Additionally, for Massive Cheese (TM), you can go Cloistered Cleric focused on DMM: Persist.

ok thank god i thought no one else has thought of this! i f***ing love this combination. you become an absolute god of war that can do anything with this gestalt build. i built one up til level 10 about a month ago.

RFLS

2013-03-25, 11:29 AM

If you don't mind 5-way MAD, pump CHA a bit as well and go Warmage. Blaster Caster on top of Melee Monster. Focus on damage spells instead of Saves.

I was pretty sure Warmage was an Int based caster...?

Karnith

2013-03-25, 11:32 AM

I was pretty sure Warmage was an Int based caster...?
You would think, but no. A warmage's spellcasting is based on Charisma, and the Warmage Edge ability is keyed off of Intelligence. Because having it keyed off of the casting stat would just be too strong.

ArcturusV

2013-03-25, 11:32 AM

Nope. Warmage is Charisma Casting. However it has "Warmage's Edge" which adds your Int Modifier to spell damage.

Edit: Swordsaged. Karnith is always on the ball.

RFLS

2013-03-25, 11:43 AM

You would think, but no. A warmage's spellcasting is based on Charisma, and the Warmage Edge ability is keyed off of Intelligence. Because having it keyed off of the casting stat would just be too strong.

Hot damn. My group had always played with them keyed off of Intelligence, we genuinely thought it was RAW. Because having it keyed off of a non-casting stat would be too weak. XD

DMVerdandi

2013-03-25, 03:58 PM

Spell to power erudite.
Best manifesting/casting class in the game.

Think of it as a wilder with INT casting, and that can choose what 11 powers he can use every day. And half of em can be arcane spells from ANY ARCANE CLASS.

Assasin spells? Yup, Bard spells? Sure. Warmage spells? Bring on the blastin'.
Go hire a high level wizard and tell him to cast spells in front of you. get spells, profit.

Now, attach that to a warblade, and you have a plethora of spells capable of being manifested before you actually spend your unique power per day. That is pure flexibility.

While having a melee centered character and a psionic one at the same time would generally be seen as breaking the action economy, there is a solution.
M-Fing Schism.:smallamused:

And it's never been so awesome as with a spell-to-power erudite. So many powers and spells are totally worth it at lower levels. Using Schism, you can buff and attack at the same time, no problem.

And finally, you can cast in full plate. While you still need a free hand for somatic gestures, there is no arcane spell failure. KUKUKU.

Best part is, overpowered as it might seem, if you play well, it is just as much as you need. You don't HAVE to twink out. You can just see it as a wilder with more options. Best way to do that is to force yourself to specialize.

Wanna play a precognative soldier?
Only manifest divination and clairsentience powers except for maybe one blasty spell. Energy ray is good.
Other than that, only those types of spells.

Specialize and people won't get mad at how the erudite is the ultimate generalist.

TLDR, Spell-to-power erudite has the best returns for gestalting with the warblade, and give it a wealth of powers that can be infinitely expanded, and never taken away. The limitations on manifesting SEEM bad, but in comparison to a wilder, is it quite the boost in power. Even a basic erudite is better than a psion.

Spell-to-power erudite is pretty much the best class in the game.
Interesting mechanic, great growth potential, massive variety challenged by limited instrumentality/implementation.