Bob Vs. Chip, Round 1

[Eldest]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls! In this corner, a Monk with a chip on his shoulder, Bob the Builder! And in the other corner, a wizard defending his title, Llewellyn P. “Chip” Bosworth IV, Esquire, Senior Deputy Underclerk in the Department of Heavenly Claims. And quite a title indeed!

More seriously, Chip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14904451&postcount=158) and Bob (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14930132&postcount=554) from the most recent (as of this posting) Monk vs. Wizard thread. Chip's somebody else's design, Bob is Pickford's own. Chip has used Arcane Sight, Invisibility, Forcecage, and is currently flying and invisible. Bob is... somewhere out there, past where Chip can see due to the rather silly RAW rules for spot checks and distance. A Prying Eye will be reporting in 9 turns after it sees him, if one does actually see him. All spoilers in my posts, including the following, are for my eyes only. Well, and anybody who's interested in watching the duel. The same would be for Pickford's spoilers. Chip knows Bob is a level 20 monk, Bob knows that Chip can cast a few spells and looks human. Knowledge checks are fun.

It is currently Bob's turn.
Chip never cast Forcecage: he actually cast a Silent Image of a Forcecage.

[Pickford]

Thank you for that introduction Eldest :smallsmile: Credit for creating Chip goes to Karnith for anyone keeping track.

Bob's location:
Bob used boots of teleportation and is 240' east of Chip's last known location. 2/3 uses for BoT left. No Prying Eyes would be triggered from that distance.

While Bob knows (in general) where Chip is, he hasn't been able to make a spot/listen check yet to pinpoint it.

Bob's action:
Move Silently: result (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14956921&postcount=8). Moves: 45' west, should be ~150' east of Chip's last known location. SPOT DC: 20+20+15=55...not happening. Listen DC: just to hear Chip flying at half speed is 10 + 15 for distance (made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14956952&postcount=9)), to pinpoint is 15 for distance, +20 for invisibility, +23 from ms check -4 for moving conditions total DC 54...no dice on pinpointing.

Eldest, Chip's using overland flight and has to maintain half movement or he'll fall 150' in the first round (i.e. take falling damage) max turn speed is 90 degrees (10' of movement) per round. I'll assume you meant him not to fall, but in any case he can only actually turn to look north or south from looking west without landing.

[Eldest]

Huh. I forgot about maneuverability. My bad. In that case, position is updated below. Chip's turn is to shout vague insults and obscenities. Lowers Listen check to 0, +20 for pinpointing, plus whatever the distance penalties are. That's a free action, other action is below.

Position. Go ahead and look if you make the Listen check.
On the ground, pretty much exactly where Bob was.

Free Action: Shift into Purple Wurm. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm)
Held action.
Trigger: when Bob is next to him.
Action: Swallow Whole

[Pickford]

Not having heard anything the first time (not a big secret I'm guessing ;)

Bob:
Moves 45' west again, makes a listen check DC should be 31 assuming Chip didn't go far. Result: wow...an 8. Ok, failing that horribly, Bob uses his move action to try and spot Chip. Assuming same distance DC 20 + 10 + 20 = 50...impossible to beat blargh.

Chips move.

[Eldest]

Chip

Strange, somehow taunting roars come from the same area as before.

DC 20+distance check to pinpoint, DC 0+ distance to hear him... you did hear him, right?

Position
Same as before. Read the above spoiler.

Action
Same held action as before.

[Pickford]

Right, heard but not pinpointed. Maybe we should stop the double blind? I have no idea if I'm doing the DC right anymore (since it's +1 for every 10 feet.)

Bob action:

Listen Check to pinpoint: DC 31 [roll0]
If succeed do this as a charge if fail do as a move action towards estimated location and make a non-charge attack (-2 to the result and possibility of just whiffing outright...I'll leave that up to you to adjudicate Eldest)

Charge to make a single attack:
modifiers: BAB +15, Strmod +9, +5 aomf, +1 competence, +2 charge total +32

Attack roll: [roll1]
50/50 roll to miss (over 50 hits, under misses): [roll2]
Stunning Fisted Weakening Touched Freezing the Lifeblood. Attack deals no damage but Chip will have a -6 to strength (not ability damage or drain, just a flat -6 penalty) and have to make two fort saves each DC 27 to avoid being stunned for 1 round and paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds.




Incidentally Eldest, this is really telling me I need to give Bob a way to see through invisibility...do you have any suggestions on magic items? I could swap one of the rapid stunnings for blind fight, but that still wouldn't let me "see" them and the spot/listen dc for pinpointing is...much tougher to beat than I thought it would be. I suppose having a bag of flour to make a ranged touch attack would be useful...any other items you can think of? (alchemists fire?)

edit: Total whiff based on concealment. Chip's move.

[Eldest]

Sure, we can stop the doubleblind. To sum it up, Chip's standing where Bob had been sitting, in the form of a Purple Wurm. He's got a held action, trigger when Bob stands nearby, to Swallow Whole Bob. He'd dismiss the damn Invisibility, but he can't while in that form, and isn't going to change it. More roaring.
Remember, Bob doesn't know any of that.

[Pickford]

Ok, the worm is...gargantuan so he takes up 4 squares and his reach is 4 squares. Hence if Bob gets within striking distance Chip can take his readied action, no?

Assuming that would be the case, why don't we just move to where Chip makes his readied action to swallow Bob? (Unless there's actually the possibility Bob could charge/strike first before Chip can swallow him in which case I can simulate the next two rounds of Bob getting closer and listening, closer and listening.) Oh I see, it has to hit with a bite attack then make a grapple check and then grapple to swallow.

listen check at DC 27 (70' away)
[roll0]

If succeeds: charge to location, if fails, charge in general direction (I'm actually not sure how far it could be off given that Chip has 4 squares)

(same action as before)
[roll1]

50/50 to whiff, high hits: [roll2]

Edit: ok He'd be approximately 45' from Chip at this point. (So, easily visible)

[Eldest]

So... because this is important, Chip can see Bob, right? And since I said you can detail the arena, is there anything near Bob?
Edit: I'll go over some recomendations for the build later, you are missing several things that are considered important for high level characters. Some of them are covered by Bob's frankly rediculous saves, but others are not, and you just need to roll a one.

[Pickford]

Sure I'll say Chip can see Bob. Does he charge/grapple/sit on him?

[Eldest]

Nope. Was going to, then I reconsidered, since beating a monk with the MM is similar, but not the same as, beating the monk with wizard things. Crushing Hand. Free action to turn back to a Solar, standard cast, move direct the hand against Bob.
[roll0] vs. 30 for spell resistance.
[roll1] to hit touch AC of 25... no idea why I'm rolling this, for the lols I guess.
[roll2] grapple check (free action for the hand) vs. your check, of [roll3] I think that's your grapple check, feel free to reroll if it isn't.
[roll4] damage if the grapple check works.

[Pickford]

You know, I'm an idiot, I've been forgetting the skill tricks. (Clarity of Vision to spot invisible Chip DC 20)

Well, fortunately attacking with an unarmed strike in a grapple requires no grapple check, though it's done at a -4 attack penalty.

so fiery fist, flurry for 5 attacks: (AB: +30/+30/+30/+25/+20) -4 for attacking in a grapple
damage: 2d10 + 9(strmod) + 5 (aomf) + 1d6 fiery fist, x2 on crit

rolling the damage in case they hit, just multiply result x2 if crit happens.

Hand AC: 20 (+11 natural, -1 size) HP: Chips undamaged (151)

1: [roll0]
damage1: [roll1] + fiery fist [roll2]
2: [roll3]
damage2: [roll4] + fiery fist [roll5]
3: [roll6]
damage3: [roll7] + fiery fist [roll8]
4: [roll9]
damage4: [roll10] + fiery fist [roll11]
5: [roll12]
damage5: [roll13] + fiery fist [roll14]

edit:
4 hits, 27; 26; 31; 32
Total damage (edited in after rolls happen): 116, a pity, wouldn't have been enough even if they all landed in this case.

Hand HP: 35
Bob's HP: 113 - 22 = 91
Chip HP: 151

I think you got Bob's grapple check right, sadly.

[Eldest]

Alright, just so you know, I checked all of your spoilers from PMs and this thread, to see what info Chip knows IC now.

Move: fly upwards and forward. Standard: analyze Bob's gear and abilities, as per Arcane Sight. Shoulda done this a while back. I have to roll for anything above a DC 36, which very little of your gear is above.
Strong evocation headgear. Faint evocation amulet/necklace. Moderate transmutation belt. Faint abjuration cloak. Moderate transmutation gloves. Strong abjuration ring. Moderate conjuration boots.

Well, the Hand pins. [roll0] vs. [roll1], [roll2] damage if it works, and Bob will be silenced and immobilized if it works. I don't know yet if Bob is able to attack while immobilized (asked on the FAQ thread) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14978119#post14978119), so I suggest waiting on an answer before posting Bob's move.

Edit: Oops, I put +39 instead of +49 for the grapple mod for the hand. So that's supposed to be 10 higher.
Edit 2: Chip also knows Bob has 3 rods with strong abjuration.

[Pickford]

Pinned just can use an attack action to make a grapple check or escape artist check to escape the pin, they're immobile but not helpless.

Bob's action:
Ok, so Bob is at 75 HP from the grapple.

Bob uses Clarity of Vision (swift action) and sees Chip (DC 20 with the skill trick vs 27 spot bonus so no need to roll this)

Bob uses Abundant Step, a supernatural ability requiring no mobility/vocal, to, briefly, be next to Chip who is visible for this round courtesy of Clarity of Vision. It says it operates as dimension door of 1/2 the monk levels so used as a 10th level dimension door, courtesy of Sun School tactical maneuver Flash of Sunset Bob can make a single attack at his highest attack bonus.

So +30 attack on Chip.

Bob will activate the following Stunning Fist abilities: Freezing the Lifeblood, Weakening Touch;

After further review of some things I noted the following:
Crushing hand should be affected by the monk's DR, so that's 20 points less damage (i.e. 95 HP instead of 75);
Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm require damage to be dealt, so logically they can't be used in conjunction with Weakening Touch and/or Freezing the Lifeblood...not sure if Fiery fist would function normally since it's the flames on the fists that are dealing the extra 1d6, but I'll act as if they wouldn't work so we both know going forward. (So out of 22 stunning fist uses bob would have used 5 instead of 7, leaving him with 17)

Anyway: the roll to hit [roll0]
If hits it's a DC 27 fortitude save, if failed paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds and you are at -6 str penalty for 1 minute (10 rounds)

Chip Fort save (I think I have this right): [roll1]

[Pickford]

Just realized if it succeeds there's possible falling damage:

Since max up speed is half at 40' speed that's 20' high, so 2d6

Bob can make a DC 15 tumble check (trained only, sorry Chip =\) to reduce the fall damage by 10' and convert the next 10' to non-lethal.
[roll0]
1d6 damage to bob nonlethal [roll1]

2d6 lethal to Chip [roll2]

[Eldest]

Chip's got a +21, not a +16 for fort, and one other issue. Abundant Step is a Standard action, as it's a supernatural ability, that defaults to a standard action unless stated otherwise (citation) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities), as well as being based on dimension door, which also explicitly states that you may take no other actions until your next turn (citation) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm). Normally, that would be a problem, but Sun School deals with both of those. However, Abundant Step is based on Dimension Door, and Dimension Door has a verbal component. So I'm gonna ask in the RAW questions thread again, if Abundant Step has a verbal component. Finally, don't know if Freezing The Lifeblood and Weakening Touch (and other abilities of that kin) are usable on the same strike. So I'll be asking there.

If they work, you got Chip down, and stunned for [roll0] rounds. Good luck killing him before he gets up pissed. He does have something he gets to do on his round, though, so no assumptions.

[Pickford]

I was basing the weakening touch and freezing the lifeblood on them both converting the attack to one that deals no damage (rapid stunning let's both work), but as stunning fist and quivering palm require damage I assumed the rules would require damage to be dealt not just the possibility of damage being dealt (if the other two abilities weren't making them non-damaging hits).

As far as I can tell from the PHB entry supernatural abilities can't be interrupted, hence there's no way to stop abundant step.

[Pickford]

I'm pretty sure that's fatality, but for the next 4 rounds:

Chip HP: 150
Fist HP: 35

so fiery fist, flurry for 5 attacks: (AB: +30/+30/+30/+25/+20)
damage: 2d10 + 9(strmod) + 5 (aomf) + 1d6 fiery fist, x2 on crit
rolling the damage in case they hit, just multiply result x2 if crit happens.

Hand AC: 20 (+11 natural, -1 size)
Chip AC: 6
Round 1 Flurry (hit crushing fist until it is destroyed, then Chip)
Attack 1: [roll0]
Damage1: [roll1] + [roll2]
Attack 2: [roll3]
Damage2: [roll4] + [roll5]
Attack 3: [roll6]
Damage3: [roll7] + [roll8]
Attack 4: [roll9]
Damage 4: [roll10] + [roll11]
Attack 5: [roll12]
Damage 5: [roll13] + [roll14]

Round 2 Flurry
Attack 1: [roll15]
Damage1: [roll16] + [roll17]
Attack 2: [roll18]
Damage2: [roll19] + [roll20]
Attack 3: [roll21]
Damage3: [roll22] + [roll23]
Attack 4: [roll24]
Damage 4: [roll25] + [roll26]
Attack 5: [roll27]
Damage 5: [roll28] + [roll29]

Round 3 Flurry
Attack 1: [roll30]
Damage1: [roll31] + [roll32]
Attack 2: [roll33]
Damage2: [roll34] + [roll35]
Attack 3: [roll36]
Damage3: [roll37] + [roll38]
Attack 4: [roll39]
Damage 4: [roll40] + [roll41]
Attack 5: [roll42]
Damage 5: [roll43] + [roll44]

Round 4 Flurry - Also attempt Stunning Fist on the first hit and Paralyzing touch on the 3rd attack
Attack 1: [roll45]
Damage1: [roll46] + [roll47]
Stun DC 27 [roll48]
Attack 2: [roll49]
Damage2: [roll50] + [roll51]
Attack 3: [roll52]
No damage - paralyze attempt: DC 27 [roll53]
Attack 4: [roll54]
Damage 4: [roll55] + [roll56]
Attack 5: [roll57]
Damage 5: [roll58] + [roll59]

[Pickford]

Total damage done:

Round 1 to Fist: 24, 28 = 52 (Hand dead after two punches)
Round 1 to Chip: 29 + 34 + 26 = 89

Round 2 to Chip: 35 + 27 + 32 + 25 + 25 = 144
Chip's Dead. Rounds 3-4 are superfluous

Edit: All this assumes Chip fails to get out of being paralyzed (Is that possible? I mean...even if he changes forms using Shapechange won't he still be paralyzed?)

[Eldest]

Chip took no damage from the fall, because of DR, and if he had he'd have healed it up. Shapechange is a free action, purely mental. He can switch to something, like say a Greater Shadow. Undead, immune. First, the Hand grapples again, automatically makes it because of the relative bonuses. [roll0] damage on Bob.
Now, full attack with Chip boosted by Haste (cast it in the PMs), 3 hits on flatfooted touch AC, which is 21. [roll1], [roll2], [roll3]. Probably a few more bonuses there too, but I think that's all that matters. In case of crits, in order: [roll4], [roll5], [roll6].
[roll7] Strength damage.
[roll8] Crit.
[roll9] Strength damage.
[roll10] Crit.
[roll11] Strength damage.
[roll12] Crit.

So Bob took 11 Strength damage, and 17 hp damage.

[Eldest]

And upon revision, you forgot to roll concealment for your super attack. Pinpointing just means you know which square I'm in.
Roll of 1 gets you it. [roll0]
Well, I'm not changing Chip's action, since that's pretty much what he's been setting up to do. But for the annals of history, ya missed.

[Pickford]

PMs? edit: nm I see

The shadow thing brings up the question of what would happen if Chip had swallowed Bob and then tried to change shape...would Chip just explode?

Well, assuming it is possible, Bob would be pretty much forced to spend a round flurrying to kill the Fist

Anything after the Fists hp would go for Chip: AC 14 according to the greater shadow entry, 50/50 chance since concealment does not stack
fiery fist active
For miss chance, high hits (only applies to Chip, not fist)
1: [roll0]
damage: [roll1] + [roll2]
2: [roll3] miss chance: [roll4]
damage: [roll5] + [roll6]
3: [roll7] miss chance: [roll8]
damage: [roll9] + [roll10]
4: [roll11] miss chance: [roll12]
damage: [roll13] + [roll14]
5: [roll15] miss chance: [roll16]
damage: [roll17] + [roll18]

[Pickford]

Ok

Fist dies after 2nd attack.

Chip is whiffed, then hit, then whiffed.

Hit does 21 damages, so Chip has 129 hp

[Eldest]

So... how are you hitting an incorporeal being? And according to the RAW FAQ thread, everything about your attack sequence worked before. The Abundant Step thing, and the stacking of different abilities on an attack.

[Pickford]

magic weapons have a 50% chance to hit incorporeal

[Eldest]

So you didn't roll invisibility, then? They're different types of miss chances: in fact, one isn't a miss chance, it's a chance for the weapon (well, your fist) to work.
One gets you a hit.
[roll0]

[Eldest]

Ok, Chip moves to another square within striking distance, so you'll need to pinpoint again. Touch AC of 21.
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]

[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]

[roll6]
[roll7]
[roll8]

So further 11 strength damage. Bob is at 6 strength. Free action to change shape, as well, into an Etheral Filcher. Free action to go to the Etheral Plane. He's invisible the entire time, so Bob doesn't know about that. Chips back at full hp.

[Pickford]

So you didn't roll invisibility, then? They're different types of miss chances: in fact, one isn't a miss chance, it's a chance for the weapon (well, your fist) to work.
One gets you a hit.
[roll0]

Concealment chances don't stack, both are concealment according to the DMG/PHB.

Edit: Incidentally Chip as a shadow can't wield anything, so the staff melds into his form and he doesn't have the +5 to hit from greater magic weapon. (i.e. just +6 from being a greater shadow)

And as the full attack from a shadow is a single attack, so haste would only allow for two, not three.

Edit2: I'm flipping through the FAQ on shapechange, some points of note:

Human feat and bonus skill points are (Ex) so while shapechanged they aren't available. (That's 24 skill points and whatever Karnith would have picked...I have no idea which, it's not immediately clear from Chip's spreadsheet.)

Found it:
If, while under the effect of a spell that depends on type
(such as hold person), my character is transformed into a
different creature type by polymorph*, does the spell’s
effect remain?
Yes. A spell only checks to see if you are a legal target
when it is cast. If you become an illegal target later (such as via
the polymorph spell), the spell remains in effect.
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer
specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self
spell to adjudicate their effect (including alter self, polymorph,
polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based
on the metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and
greater metamorphosis), and any other effect based on either of
these lists.

[Eldest]

Oh. Huh. Where'd you get that from?

[Pickford]

Oh. Huh. Where'd you get that from?

Wizards of the Coast 3.5 FAQ

all wotc faqs: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

3.5 faq: https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv06302008.zip

net result is as a shadow Chip only has a +7 bonus with haste to hit and would miss both of the attacks.

That ups Bob's damage by 6

[Eldest]

Ignore this, read below.

[Eldest]

Ok, sorry for the delay. Kinda been catching up on R&R, destressing, etc. Anyway, on to the actual bit. Or the actual bit, really.

I have 2 percentage chances for an attack not affect Chip. One is concealment, 50%. One is a flat 50% chance for the attack to affect Chip. You rolled one, not the other. I rolled the other, and the attack that should have paralyzed Chip did not hit him. Now, I decided not to look into if it would have hit or not and just roll with it because frankly it's jarring for the flow of this game (yes, I think of this as a game) to debate rules, and so I've been letting most stuff that I'd find questionable slide after maybe a question or two. But this significantly alters the duel. So, I believe we should go back to the turn that you used the Sun School feat and Freeze The Lifeblood, since a rules misunderstanding dramatically screwwed up the duel at that point. Does this sound acceptable to you?

Edit: And so that I don't forget, I never included the Greater Magic Weapon bonus in the Greater Shadow Form attack. If we roll the duel back it doesn't matter, but I'd like to make sure that you are aware.

[Pickford]

Sure, that's fine, it was my understanding that the amulet of mighty fists, by providing an enhancement bonus, effectively makes the unarmed strikes act as magic weapons.

My bad on the incorporeal and invisibility miss chances stacking, I thought they didn't. Though I suppose this does dramatically impact my magic item choice for next time. (ghost touch scorpion kama is basically a requirement it would seem)

Can we pick this up again after Wednesday?

I guess then I'm confused on the shadow attack, How were you calculating the g.shadow's chance to hit?

[Eldest]

Of course I can wait. To answer your questions quickly, though, +2 from dex (incorporeal creatures use dex for attacks instead of str), +9 from BAB (which I believe is inherent to the mage), and some... other... bonus? Might be from haste. Anyway, yes, the Amulet means you attack as a magic weapon. However, normal weapons (nonmagical) don't affect incorporeal beings at all. Magical ones, and magic attacks, have a 50% chance of affecting them, unless a positive, negative, force, or ghost touch effect. I also learned that Incorporeal creatures make no sound whatsoever. So Listen checks to pinpoint are right out, I guess. To be honest, Chip is incorporeal, flying, invisible, and silent. I'd argue that Bob shouldn't be getting spot checks to pinpoint, since the only things that I could see justifying that (invisible feet still leave footprints, and you can leave a trail through some dust in the air) don't apply due to incorporeal. But that's RAI, and just way too unfair, so ignore that.
But nah, there're easier ways to hit incorporeal people. Gloves of the Arcanist (I think that's the name, at least) does a fairly powerful Magic Missile 1/day, for cheap. Magic Item Compedium. It also probably has something to let you punch incorporeal beings as well, if it's that important to you.
Good luck getting access to the books, though. I kinda just get them from Scribd and 4shared and don't ask questions.

[Pickford]

Of course I can wait. To answer your questions quickly, though, +2 from dex (incorporeal creatures use dex for attacks instead of str), +9 from BAB (which I believe is inherent to the mage), and some... other... bonus? Might be from haste. Anyway, yes, the Amulet means you attack as a magic weapon. However, normal weapons (nonmagical) don't affect incorporeal beings at all. Magical ones, and magic attacks, have a 50% chance of affecting them, unless a positive, negative, force, or ghost touch effect. I also learned that Incorporeal creatures make no sound whatsoever. So Listen checks to pinpoint are right out, I guess. To be honest, Chip is incorporeal, flying, invisible, and silent. I'd argue that Bob shouldn't be getting spot checks to pinpoint, since the only things that I could see justifying that (invisible feet still leave footprints, and you can leave a trail through some dust in the air) don't apply due to incorporeal. But that's RAI, and just way too unfair, so ignore that.
But nah, there're easier ways to hit incorporeal people. Gloves of the Arcanist (I think that's the name, at least) does a fairly powerful Magic Missile 1/day, for cheap. Magic Item Compedium. It also probably has something to let you punch incorporeal beings as well, if it's that important to you.
Good luck getting access to the books, though. I kinda just get them from Scribd and 4shared and don't ask questions.

Ah, I see why. For the polymorph school (shapechange) the attack bonus used is taken from the form taken. So you're right that they use dex, but the dex mod on the greater shadow is +2 and the Base attack is +4 for a total of +6.

So in the case of the greater shadow, just +6 total.
edit: +1 from haste to +7 total...


The subject is treated as having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the assumed form's base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.

Bolded from the last page of the new phb which describes the polymorph school. (pg 320)

You're right about listen checks being out, MM pg. 311:

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn't wish to be.

Don't see anything prohibiting spot though. Invisibility can be spotted according to the DMG pg. 295: (it's an extensive quote but here are the DCs)

DC 20 to notice
DC 30 living creature holding still
DC 40 inanimate object, unliving creature holding still or completely immobile creature.
+20 DC to pinpoint

So, DC 40 to pinpoint before being a shadow, DC 50 as a shadow.

Also this was of note:

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). At your option, a particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance. If a wizard projects a disintegrate ray into the center of an invisible Huge black pudding, you could reduce or ignore the miss chance; it's pretty hard to miss something that big.

I figure it would be reduced miss chance (assuming the right square is targeted) depending on how big the creature is...with a solar, a large (so slightly smaller than huge) but dexterous creature...I'd split the difference at 30%. Thing is, this is one of those situations where it's a DM call, so it's hard to game out after the fact.

How far do you want to roll it back? (pre-casting anything?)

[Eldest]

Huh. My bad about the BAB of the shadow: I've been using the SRD for the core stuff, and it says nothing about getting the BAB of the assumed form in the spell Polymorph. Well, that's a strange rule, though. I'd be ok with calling a Mulligan. But I'll actually be using high level spells now. The Hand doesn't really count: I just used that since I found it funny it could outgrapple Bob. I'd like to make one change to Chip: he's supposed to have a contingency set up, and he doesn't have one. Mind if I do that, and swap out a few spells prepped? Since he is unable to cast Gate, for example, I see little reason for it to be prepped.

[Pickford]

Huh. My bad about the BAB of the shadow: I've been using the SRD for the core stuff, and it says nothing about getting the BAB of the assumed form in the spell Polymorph. Well, that's a strange rule, though. I'd be ok with calling a Mulligan. But I'll actually be using high level spells now. The Hand doesn't really count: I just used that since I found it funny it could outgrapple Bob. I'd like to make one change to Chip: he's supposed to have a contingency set up, and he doesn't have one. Mind if I do that, and swap out a few spells prepped? Since he is unable to cast Gate, for example, I see little reason for it to be prepped.

Agreed, I'd probably have to re-arrange some magic items...maybe even feats given the way the experiment went down so far.

Seems like Ghost-touch scorpion kama would be practically a must. Or even a vest of mighty fists ghost touch and/or lenses of see invisibility...actually those seem like the type of items any melee pretty much either needs or must be able to prepare for.

looks like goggles of see invisibility would cost 12,000gp (continuous effect)

That's actually well within the remaining gp, might as well just sub out a rod of cancellation for that, probably go with a vest of resistance to free up the cloak slot for a cape of the mountebank (the better to use sun school)

What do you think?

[Eldest]

Well, if you want me to be honest: drop the rods of cancellation. They get you nothing that teleportation doesn't already. Cape of the Montebank is a good idea: tactical feats are awesome. However, the Ghost Touch is overkill: the Shadow form was just one I did for fun. Having a force attack and being able to see the invisible form would have been enough, and you already have the force attack. Fly is a good idea for this level: this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#ebonyFly) is very cheap and gets you a mount for 12 hours at a time. I am unsure if you can add weapon properties to an amulet of mighty fists: if you can, make it a +1 [enchantment] [enchantment] [enchantment] amulet instead of a +5 amulet.
And I'm stating one thing: Bob has no bleeding clue IC what Chip's items are. In hindsight, I'm quite irked you went straight for the ring of freedom of movement. I'll be ok with you doing it again... if you can make a 50+CL spellcraft check. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spellcraft) As a full round action. Per item you want to figure out. And since Chip is wearing his gloves over his rings, no line of effect/line of sight to them.
You'll notice I spent several rounds figuring out who Bob was and what he was using. Well, I did mess up once (the know:planes check was supposed to be a free action when Chip first saw Bob, I think) but otherwise it was in character for a wizard who just got mugged to try to figure out what the hell happened.
Finally, we're going to need to define what the nearby terrain is and what victory conditions are.
Edit: I take it back. Drop ONE rod of cancellation. Options are nice.

[Eldest]

Were you interested in continuing this?

[Pickford]

Were you interested in continuing this?

Sure, for your information though, Gate is useful for its warping effects, so I'm going to go ahead on the current match, if you want to revamp for match 2, that's fine.

Ok, Bob's turn: Since Chip has attacked him, the location is known so only miss chance for incorporeal and invisible.
Flurry - Fiery Fist
Invisible Miss chance: 50% (1 miss, 2 hit)
1:[roll0]
2:[roll1]
3:[roll2]
4:[roll3]
5:[roll4]
Incorporeal miss chance: 50% (1 miss, 2 hit)
1:[roll5]
2:[roll6]
3:[roll7]
4:[roll8]
5:[roll9]

Attack rolls:
1:[roll10]
2:[roll11]
3:[roll12]
4:[roll13]
5:[roll14]

Damages: (regular + fiery fist) x2 on crit (crit = roll of 50/50/50/45/40)
1: [roll15] + [roll16]
2: [roll17] + [roll18]
3: [roll19] + [roll20]
4: [roll21] + [roll22]
5: [roll23] + [roll24]

so fiery fist, flurry for 5 attacks: (AB: +30/+30/+30/+25/+20)
damage: 2d10 + 9(strmod) + 5 (aomf) + 1d6 fiery fist, x2 on crit

So I have 95 damage from the last 3 hitting through invisibility/incorporeal and Chip would be down to 55 hp if he had 150...

[Eldest]

What round did this come after? Because there was a big problem back here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14981041&postcount=14) So are you going to try to continue from that point, in which case it would be Chip's turn and that wouldn't have happened, or are you trying to continue the fight as is?
Edit: I'll just assume you want to continue the fight. Chip is currently Etheral. None of those hit. Chip is at full health. He will use a move action to move up 20 feet, going back to the material plane as a free part of that move action, and switch back to Solar form. Then he will cast a time stop. Inside the time stop, first action will be to cast Reverse gravity on the area that Bob is in. Next action is to cast gate, making a gate to the positive energy plane above Bob, facing "down", so that if bob was to jump straight up he would go through it. As soon as Bob goes through, Chip stops concentrating, closing the gate. Bob is either going to die from too much positive energy or find a rare spot on the plane that is only lightly positive energy aligned, where he will live until somebody who can planeshift shows up and frees him. In the meantime, Chip will go find out who Bob was, why he attacked, and then track him down and gank him as he sleeps, or (more likely) summon something to do it for him and bring him back the loot to pay for a new Ring of FoM. Now, two questions: do you have any way you can think of to save Bob (reflex save to grab ahold of something against reverse gravity I will deny, since I asked at least once if there was anything around and you did not mention a thing, so that means there is nothing around), and do you have any arguments as to why this would not be a win for Chip?

[Eldest]

Ok, barring a response in the next week, I am going to assume you cannot, and I will say this is a win for Chip. I will be putting a summery of the duel in the first post.

[Pickford]

Shadows are incorporeal not ethereal. The attacks hit as Chip did nothing to become ethereal since the 'last' attack (which you were complaining about the incorporeal portion of)

Bob uses Boots of Teleportation on his turn to avoid falling through the gate.
He can pinpoint using clarity of vision as a swift action prior to using the boots (Chip is, fortunately, within 20 feet). It's only DC 20 and Bob has 20 spot so it's auto-passed.

Bob appears next to Chip, now in solar form, and courtesy of Sun School gets an attack automatically.

1d20+30 to equal or beat a 45 (stunning fist used)
[roll0]

possible damages:
[roll1]

invisibility miss chance, for a large creature we earlier agreed to 30% (>30 = hit)
[roll2]

edit: boo no hit.

[Eldest]

Shadows are incorporeal not ethereal. The attacks hit as Chip did nothing to become ethereal since the 'last' attack (which you were complaining about the incorporeal portion of)

Bob uses Boots of Teleportation on his turn to avoid falling through the gate.
He can pinpoint using clarity of vision as a swift action prior to using the boots (Chip is, fortunately, within 20 feet). It's only DC 20 and Bob has 20 spot so it's auto-passed.

Bob appears next to Chip, now in solar form, and courtesy of Sun School gets an attack automatically.

1d20+30 to equal or beat a 45 (stunning fist used)
[roll0]

possible damages:
[roll1]

invisibility miss chance, for a large creature we earlier agreed to 30% (>30 = hit)
[roll2]

edit: boo no hit.


Ok, Chip moves to another square within striking distance, so you'll need to pinpoint again. Touch AC of 21.
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]

[roll3]
[roll4]
[roll5]

[roll6]
[roll7]
[roll8]

So further 11 strength damage. Bob is at 6 strength. Free action to change shape, as well, into an Etheral Filcher. Free action to go to the Etheral Plane. He's invisible the entire time, so Bob doesn't know about that. Chips back at full hp.



Etheral Filcher form got me ethereal. We are continuing the duel. Please read carefully. You have used clarity of vision already. It is 1/encounter, you cannot use it again. We agreed to nothing of the sort, for invisibility. It is a flat 50% miss for an invisible opponent, it doesn't matter if the opponent is tiny or colossal. So, should the Boots of Teleportation be OKed, you have just teleported to a random square, swung, and missed.

Note that this is your declared action, and it is already stretching what I am comfortable with you knowing IC. If this is not allowed, any part of it, the duel continues as is. No changing actions. You declared a standard action and an (illegal) swift, and ended turn.

Oh, and I noticed that you didn't roll for chance of mishap on that teleport. As we had actually previously agreed, if you run away, you lose. So if you teleport away, it's not my responsibility to come after you, it's yours to come back. Here's the misshap chance. Nothing happened.
Chance: [roll0] 98 and up is bad.
Direction: [roll1] 1 is north, clockwise from there.
Distance: [roll2]*[roll3] of 15 feet.

Edit: After asking the RAW thread, we need somebody to arbitrate. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15361157&postcount=103) Who would you suggest?

[Pickford]

Huh, I misread that part of the skill tricks section, thought it could be used repeatedly.

What is the 1d100 and 1d8 for?

[Eldest]

Huh, I misread that part of the skill tricks section, thought it could be used repeatedly.

What is the 1d100 and 1d8 for?

That was the mishap chart for teleportation, as per the rules for Teleport. Nothing went wrong. Now, who would you like to arbitrate the rules? Or how?