3.5 - Anti-Paladin?

[gurgleflep]

One of the people who's going to be in a campaign I'm DMing wants to play as an anti-paladin. How would that work? Are they just like... a reverse form (magically) of a regular? :smallconfused: I'm dumbfounded by the idea. I've looked up a couple class homebrews, and they seem reasonable... but how are they played?

[Greenish]

Depends. Is is diametrically opposed (CE) or evil mirror image (LE)? What do Law and Chaos even mean?

Anyway, they must be evil, and because they're based on paladin, they probably have to kick every puppy they see or fall (rise?) and lose all class features. :smalltongue:


…Well, the PF antipaladin has the following Code of Conduct:
An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends. An antipaladin’s code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage whenever possible, and punish the good and just, provided such actions don’t interfere with his goals.

[Juntao112]

One of the people who's going to be in a campaign I'm DMing wants to play as an anti-paladin. How would that work? Are they just like... a reverse form (magically) of a regular? :smallconfused: I'm dumbfounded by the idea. I've looked up a couple class homebrews, and they seem reasonable... but how are they played?

Like a blackguard.

[ArcturusV]

Well, Unearthed Arcana (Open Source, so it's up online) has the Paladin of Tyranny and Paladin of Slaughter, which are both "Anti-Paladins". As is the Paladin of Freedom as it's Chaotic Good, in it's own way.

Of course there is the Blackguard PrC for Fallen Paladins, very "Anti-Paladin" in flavor.

Mostly? They're not all that different, or better really. The evil paladin variants are probably considered slightly better. Because they get to nerf nearby enemies with aura of Fear and such, rather than buff allies. They also Lay on the Harm rather than Healing. And typically Harming is found as more useful than healing. Still not that great because the amount of points you have to use are far too small to really be used Offensively.

Honestly, I've never really liked the flavor of those classes. But that's a personal taste thing. The Paladin is a chosen one, a special soul who is called forth to serve as a champion, endowed with special abilities and responsibilities, etc. That's a very Heroic ideal really.

But Evil... evil doesn't tend to have that ideal. And when they do it often comes off as cheap "Bizarro" style knock offs where it's an opposite just for the sake of being an opposite.

It's something from the old ADnD 2nd Edition "Paladin's Handbook" I remember, which I think was kind of appropriate. There was a small side bar about "Anti-Paladins and Dark Paladins", which mentioned there weren't any. Not in this book even which covered a lot of Paladin variants. The reason being that Good does put it's trust in champions, that it does choose people to step up, etc. It's a heroic ideal. Evil doesn't however. Evil is far too untrusting. Evil will rip itself apart, and often does. The Paladin shouldn't have an Equal and Opposite, the Paladin is the lone champion standing against a tide of evil.

And I liked that ideal. I've yet to see a "Dark Paladin" or "Anti-Paladin" or "Evil Paladin" really played all that well. It's not a mechanical failure... it's simply a flavoring failure. The "Champions of Evil" tend to be jokes, they don't make sense, kind of arbitrary figures that seem to exist just for the sake of existing. Much worse, because Good hasn't been eradicated (And Evil is Proactive, instead of Reactive, so Good has an excuse, Evil does not), it makes them look incompetent.

Like Abaddon the Despoiler.

[gurgleflep]

Depends. Is is diametrically opposed (CE) or evil mirror image (LE)? What do Law and Chaos even mean?

Anyway, they must be evil, and because they're based on paladin, they probably have to kick every puppy they see or fall (rise?) and lose all class features. :smalltongue:


…Well, the PF antipaladin has the following Code of Conduct:

Mirror, so LE. I like their code of conduct, I'll pass that on to the player.


Like a blackguard.

Where can I find that?


Well, Unearthed Arcana (Open Source, so it's up online) has the Paladin of Tyranny and Paladin of Slaughter, which are both "Anti-Paladins". As is the Paladin of Freedom as it's Chaotic Good, in it's own way.

Of course there is the Blackguard PrC for Fallen Paladins, very "Anti-Paladin" in flavor.

Mostly? They're not all that different, or better really. The evil paladin variants are probably considered slightly better. Because they get to nerf nearby enemies with aura of Fear and such, rather than buff allies. They also Lay on the Harm rather than Healing. And typically Harming is found as more useful than healing. Still not that great because the amount of points you have to use are far too small to really be used Offensively.

Honestly, I've never really liked the flavor of those classes. But that's a personal taste thing. The Paladin is a chosen one, a special soul who is called forth to serve as a champion, endowed with special abilities and responsibilities, etc. That's a very Heroic ideal really.

But Evil... evil doesn't tend to have that ideal. And when they do it often comes off as cheap "Bizarro" style knock offs where it's an opposite just for the sake of being an opposite.

It's something from the old ADnD 2nd Edition "Paladin's Handbook" I remember, which I think was kind of appropriate. There was a small side bar about "Anti-Paladins and Dark Paladins", which mentioned there weren't any. Not in this book even which covered a lot of Paladin variants. The reason being that Good does put it's trust in champions, that it does choose people to step up, etc. It's a heroic ideal. Evil doesn't however. Evil is far too untrusting. Evil will rip itself apart, and often does. The Paladin shouldn't have an Equal and Opposite, the Paladin is the lone champion standing against a tide of evil.

And I liked that ideal. I've yet to see a "Dark Paladin" or "Anti-Paladin" or "Evil Paladin" really played all that well. It's not a mechanical failure... it's simply a flavoring failure. The "Champions of Evil" tend to be jokes, they don't make sense, kind of arbitrary figures that seem to exist just for the sake of existing. Much worse, because Good hasn't been eradicated (And Evil is Proactive, instead of Reactive, so Good has an excuse, Evil does not), it makes them look incompetent.

Like Abaddon the Despoiler.

Thank you for your insight. It would appear you and I are "in the same boat" as it were. :smallcool:

[Mato]

Where can I find that?DMG or SRD.

[gurgleflep]

DMG or SRD.

Thank you :smallsmile:

[Yogibear41]

The reason being that Good does put it's trust in champions, that it does choose people to step up, etc. It's a heroic ideal. Evil doesn't however. Evil is far too untrusting. Evil will rip itself apart, and often does. The Paladin shouldn't have an Equal and Opposite, the Paladin is the lone champion standing against a tide of evil.


Chaotic Evil maybe but I can see a Lawful Evil god easily having its own paladins or anti-paladins rather, but I suppose thats just my opinion.

[ArcturusV]

Well, a Cleric, sure. But a Paladin? I mean a Paladin is, by the writing explicitly, a "Chosen One", a mortal who was Called into service. There's something of a humility to character that is involved in knowing that you are a servant of a higher cause. That you're serving a cause, giving of yourself, and on a difficult path.

Lawful Evil MIGHT do that. But Evil in and of itself isn't very much geared towards Humility. Humiliation, sure. But... it requires a sort of humility and acceptance that is hard for the average evil character to accept. Even a thug doesn't always want to be a boot licker. The Lawful Evil type should be fine with the hierarchy concept, being a lesser part of a system.. but it's hard to imagine the selflessness that a Paladin requires, giving up your life for the cause, being something Evil really pursues.

[Yogibear41]

Well, a Cleric, sure. But a Paladin? I mean a Paladin is, by the writing explicitly, a "Chosen One", a mortal who was Called into service. There's something of a humility to character that is involved in knowing that you are a servant of a higher cause. That you're serving a cause, giving of yourself, and on a difficult path.

Lawful Evil MIGHT do that. But Evil in and of itself isn't very much geared towards Humility. Humiliation, sure. But... it requires a sort of humility and acceptance that is hard for the average evil character to accept. Even a thug doesn't always want to be a boot licker. The Lawful Evil type should be fine with the hierarchy concept, being a lesser part of a system.. but it's hard to imagine the selflessness that a Paladin requires, giving up your life for the cause, being something Evil really pursues.

I guess it depends on what your use to, in the game I play in a LE character could be just as likely to die for a cause he believes in as a LG character would.

I think back to one encounter the group recently had with a LE outsider, the creature had no desire to fight or trick the party in anyway. The creature offered up deals to all the members of the party that would give them very powerful abilities in exchange for their souls. Speaking with the creature it had a very solid set of moral ideals, it took Lawfulness to the ultimate extreme, it basically favored the upholding of the law over life and anything else, thus its Lawful Evilness.

[gurgleflep]

I guess it depends on what your use to, in the game I play in a LE character could be just as likely to die for a cause he believes in as a LG character would.

I think back to one encounter the group recently had with a LE outsider, the creature had no desire to fight or trick the party in anyway. The creature offered up deals to all the members of the party that would give them very powerful abilities in exchange for their souls. Speaking with the creature it had a very solid set of moral ideals, it took Lawfulness to the ultimate extreme, it basically favored the upholding of the law over life and anything else, thus its Lawful Evilness.

What kind of deals did said creature make with the party?

[herrhauptmann]

The best example of an Anti-paladin I can think of in Literature was in Dragonlance.
Specifically "Second Generation" and "Dragons of Summer Flame." Second generation also had a writeup of a 2nd Ed Anti-paladin in the appendices along with the inevitable songs/poems.

The basic idea is that a servant of Takhisis was captured by the Solamnic Knights (Paladins), and as a nobleman, was held for ransom rather than executed. Before his release/ransom, he got to know them. Got to wondering why it was that Good so frequently triumphed over Evil, despite overwhelming forces.
He decided that part of it was a dream or goal, shared by the paladins and granted to them by Paladine.

When he was free, he created a similar idea for the servants of Takhisis. His dream, of a force that worked together for the improvement of the whole, rather than for themselves. A whole which served Takhisis (particularly in her more LE Dark Warrior guise).

The Dream and it's resulting unity lasted until his death, because it was HIS dream of a triumphant Takhisis they were participating in.

[Yogibear41]

What kind of deals did said creature make with the party?

Rogue got a permanent true strike (+20 to hit), wizard got some crazy thing from a forgotten realms book about being a paragon of magic or something gets a bunch of spell like abilities, immunity to 1 spell of every level he gets to choose which spells, +10 enh bonus to con, and some other stuff like not having to sleep anymore, half-giant half-troll psychic warrior wished for his ECL removed lol

The cleric in the party refused the deal, and I a were-bear druid refused the deal (though I was offered the ability to have my damage reduction no longer be penetrated by silver weapons) not that it matters because my character was killed alone in the woods a few days later and his body was eaten :smallfrown: will be starting a new character soon /sigh all those months of play with him gone :smallfrown:


The 3 that accepted the deal have 1 year to complete 3 extremely difficult tasks(one each), if they fail they die and go strait to a bad place, in addition even if they complete the trial, if they ever die they go strait to a bad place and cannot be ressurected. I would say by any means, but nothing is impossible with magic.

[herrhauptmann]

The wizard got the Chosen of Mystra template from the FRCS. Trying to remember if it came with LA, or just a CR boost.

DR 10/-?
Probably not worth it, especially as optimization level (or character level) rises.
Is there an errata to the werebear? In my copy, his hybrid form doesn't get DR/silver, but his bear and human shapes do. (Wereboar, rat, tiger, wolf, and wolflord: animal and hybrid get DR, human form does not...)


No resurrection generally means no resurrection. A Wish/Miracle might be enough to free them, followed by a resurrect spell, but that's usually what's required when something says a person can't be resurrected.

A way to save them, might be to planeshift to hell/abyss, and take their souls from the creature which holds them. Once their souls are free, you could resurrect them. In this case, you're freeing them via Plot and Adventure, which is awesome. Rather than just by casting a spell, which is boring.

I think the rogue got the best deal of the group. Especially if the wizard just saddled himself with some LA.

[Yogibear41]

The wizard got the Chosen of Mystra template from the FRCS. Trying to remember if it came with LA, or just a CR boost.

DR 10/-?
Probably not worth it, especially as optimization level (or character level) rises.
Is there an errata to the werebear? In my copy, his hybrid form doesn't get DR/silver, but his bear and human shapes do. (Wereboar, rat, tiger, wolf, and wolflord: animal and hybrid get DR, human form does not...)


No resurrection generally means no resurrection. A Wish/Miracle might be enough to free them, followed by a resurrect spell, but that's usually what's required when something says a person can't be resurrected.

A way to save them, might be to planeshift to hell/abyss, and take their souls from the creature which holds them. Once their souls are free, you could resurrect them. In this case, you're freeing them via Plot and Adventure, which is awesome. Rather than just by casting a spell, which is boring.

I think the rogue got the best deal of the group. Especially if the wizard just saddled himself with some LA.

All lycanthropes have DR in animal and hybrid forms but not human form, your book must have a miss print.

The wizard has no LA

[herrhauptmann]

All lycanthropes have DR in animal and hybrid forms but not human form, your book must have a miss print.

The wizard has no LA

1)Yeah, misprint makes sense.
2)Weird. It's a pretty decent template. The Chosen in the ELH all have a CR that's 4 higher than their levels, but without a listed LA.
In that case, the Wizard got the best part of the deal instead of the rogue.

[Urpriest]

Well, a Cleric, sure. But a Paladin? I mean a Paladin is, by the writing explicitly, a "Chosen One", a mortal who was Called into service. There's something of a humility to character that is involved in knowing that you are a servant of a higher cause. That you're serving a cause, giving of yourself, and on a difficult path.

Lawful Evil MIGHT do that. But Evil in and of itself isn't very much geared towards Humility. Humiliation, sure. But... it requires a sort of humility and acceptance that is hard for the average evil character to accept. Even a thug doesn't always want to be a boot licker. The Lawful Evil type should be fine with the hierarchy concept, being a lesser part of a system.. but it's hard to imagine the selflessness that a Paladin requires, giving up your life for the cause, being something Evil really pursues.

First of all, Chosen One and Humility are typically diametrically opposed. While many Chosen One types have false humility, actual humility is not generally part of the archetype.

Second, think of the Operative in Serenity. A Lawful Evil character might do evil as a personal sacrifice, in order to spare others from having to do dirty work.

On the flipside, think about every cultist in fiction ever. They all view themselves as subsuming their identity to a larger power, and often they are desirous of being that being's "special chosen". Someone is just as likely to be moved and humbled by the glory of their race (Antipaladin of Zarus or Gruumsh) or the power and personal magnetism of a particular being (Tharizdun, Asmodeus), as by good-aligned causes. Not naming any names here, but think about the acts of historical cultists. Often a particular member gets told that they are the special chosen of the cult leader, and asked to do some dramatic act (assassination, kidnapping) to contribute to that leader's aims. That's the same mindset as the classic Paladin, just serving an evil leader.

[SilverLeaf167]

Uh... Is it just my phone, or did someone mess up moving a thread or something? :smallconfused:

[Callin]

no but i do see why you would think that. the OP from another thread posted about what happened in that encounter but its relevant to this thread