Tarquin is neither epic nor a straight fighter!

[Sunken Valley]

Tarquin is clearly 16+ in levels, as he is immune to Holy Word. However In this strip, Tarquin only makes 3 attacks with no reason not to do so. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html) Also Malack, despite his vampirism, is only 11th or 12th level, meaning he is not epic at all, but yet is still an equal with Tarquin's other allies (who probably would not keep him around if he was trailing behind).

Further, Rich said in his villain workshop that it's important to have every villain have a twist that turns their character on its head, which every major antagonist has done. The example Fire King hated the elf side of him, Redcloak is a sympathetic villain, Sabine is working for something higher (but what are her true loyalties), Xykon always has some new trick whenever you think you've seen his full power, Rich has implied that the question of whether Nale would still have been evil if raised by the Barmaid Mother will be answered, Miko thought she was chosen by the gods, Tsukiko died very soon and Malack is a vampire (with his children being his creations).
As a major villain, or at least the one with the highest ratio of speech bubbles: appearences, Tarquin must have a secret too. Maybe he has levels in something we don't expect.

[The Glyphstone]

If he has enough levels in 3/4 or 1/2 BAB classes, he could be Epic despite only getting 3 attacks/round.

[hamishspence]

Also Malack, despite his vampirism, is only 11th or 12th level, meaning he is not epic at all, but yet is still an equal with Tarquin's other allies (who probably would not keep him around if he was trailing behind).

If Malack's ECL is over 20, then he is Epic in the technical sense.

[Morty]

Tarquin has already had a twist, you know. Unless you missed the part where it was revealed he had been playing the nations of the Western Continent against one another for years.

Futhermore, even if there was a twist about him yet to be revealed, I fail to see why the twist should be that he has levels in a class other than Fighter.

[Gift Jeraff]

He was stalling and toying with them according to Malack, so he did have reason not to attack as much as possible.

[Sunken Valley]

Tarquin has already had a twist, you know. Unless you missed the part where it was revealed he had been playing the nations of the Western Continent against one another for years.

Futhermore, even if there was a twist about him yet to be revealed, I fail to see why the twist should be that he has levels in a class other than Fighter.

Malack was also playing the nations and he has both that twist and his undead nature. Why can't Tarquin have a personal twist as well as a setting twist?

@Gift Jerraf: You are right. Also he was still impersonating Thog, who can only make 3 attacks a round.

[Morty]

Malack was also playing the nations and he has both that twist and his undead nature. Why can't Tarquin have a personal twist as well as a setting twist?


I think you forgot that the plan was Tarquin's idea. He was also the one to explain it in detail.

[Chantelune]

Maybe Tarquin's twist is... that he has no (more) twist ? :smalltongue:

[Xelbiuj]

I'm pretty sure he is just a highly optimized metagamer. And yes I know OOTS isn't based off a real campaign, etc . . .

I don't think he has another big reveal, revealing that he multiclassed is hardly a big deal.

[JackRose]

Malack was also playing the nations and he has both that twist and his undead nature. Why can't Tarquin have a personal twist as well as a setting twist?


Also he's Elan's father.

[TreesOfDeath]

I have a theory that Tarquin has a prestige class that is an evil mirror or equivalent of the Dashing Swordsman, with abilities designed for stylish villains, including pun defence.

[137beth]

I have a theory that Tarquin has a prestige class that is an evil mirror or equivalent of the Dashing Swordsman, with abilities designed for stylish villains, including pun defence.

Indeed, I thought that was fairly apparent in the pun-fight between him and Elan.

Also, even if he has more than 3 attacks, he did have a reason not to make more: he didn't want to end the fight quickly.

[Copperdragon]

I think Tarquin is probably (low) epic, but not a straight fighter.

It does not seem likely an optimizer like him would stick to a single class for 20 levels that adds not much beyond the first levels apart from "more of the same".
I'd very much like him to be a straight fighter showing that playing smart is worth more than any overrated class feature and that you can work with your ability scores alone (which you can all get to at least "decent to good" with magic items).
But somehow, I doubt/fear that is all. At one point he'll reveal he is a level 10 Fighter/Level 10 "Some aristocrat PrC that gives all kinds of skillpoints/diplomacy-friendly features".

Actually, I do think he could be a Level 10 Fighter/Level 10 Bard. So far, he has not shown any of the bardic abilities when it comes to casting, but he does seem to have their genre-savyness.
And if you substitute "has to perform" with "can do inspiring speeches" you can also show he's using Inspire Courage and all those other bardic abilities. He's reserving his arcane casting for extreme circumstances and tries to work with his wits, his strength and items as far as he can.

[Kish]

Bards can't be Lawful, however.

[Copperdragon]

Bards can't be Lawful, however.

Good point. I liked that theory. I guess it is dead now.

But anyway: I doubt Tarquin is going to turn out as pure fighter. Roy is standing behind his profession like no one else and would go through with it until the end but for an optimiser as Tarquin it seems to be an unlikely choice.

[hamishspence]

They do retain all their Bard abilities when becoming Lawful though- they just can't take more levels.

Way back in strip 50:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

Nale says that his father told him bards were underpowered. Maybe that was the voice of experience, with him changing alignment, and multiclassing, after a while as a bard?

[Copperdragon]

They do retain all their Bard abilities when becoming Lawful though- they just can't take more levels.

I pondered that as well, but I rather thought that Tarquin did not start as Bard, but took the levels later to "improve his built". With the strip you linked it becomes more likely he did start out as Bard, then noticed what everyone notices, and improved on his fighting ability by taking levels as Fighter.
It's a good indicator, but sadly too far away from "at least decent evidence".

But I can see Tarquin still benefiting from his (if he has them) Bard levels. It would, in some way, also explain why he is so possessed with Bards (apparently he made some impact on Nale and also claimed they should rule the universe given their unique knowledge on tropes). He does not see himself as one anymore (as he was one), but of course he still has all game-technical benefits from the class.
That he does not look at the game mechanics per se to define himself is something he solidly gave proof for with his talk about alignments to Elan.

So instead of him being a Fighter 10/Bard 10, he is a Bard 10 (abandoned)/Fighter 10?
I do not know if this is true, but I think I find the character we saw so far to become much rounder for me.

If that was true, he is a more grown-up Nale. He started out as power-hungry, short tempered CE or NE, then grew older, smarter, wiser and became a more settled LE character. Dropping the Bard-class during that development is something that seems entirely possible.

[Stormlock]

He was pretending to be Thog, that's reason enough to not make more than 3 attacks right there.

Even if he wasn't straight fighter, I expect he'd be multiclassed with something MORE effective than straight fighter, not less.

And he is most certainly epic. Do you have any idea how expensive a ring that regenerates hp faster than 1/hour is?

[Morty]

Good point. I liked that theory. I guess it is dead now.

But anyway: I doubt Tarquin is going to turn out as pure fighter. Roy is standing behind his profession like no one else and would go through with it until the end but for an optimiser as Tarquin it seems to be an unlikely choice.

What makes you think Tarquin is an optimizer?

[Copperdragon]

What makes you think Tarquin is an optimizer?

His empire seems to indicate he is. Maybe not from the start but he seems to have become a person who very carefully evaluates all options he has and then picks the very best option. I doubt that someone who runs such an empire has he does has not spent an equal amount of thought into his own development.
The OotS-World seems one to be in which most people are aware of their classes and make deliberate choices on levelup. Why should someone as Tarquin who is aware of these options and that he can make those choices not to ponder it the same way he is shown to ponder everything else?

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, regardless, Tarquin isn't going to defeat Xykon, because that would steal the Order's thunder.

[Morty]

His empire seems to indicate he is. Maybe not from the start but he seems to have become a person who very carefully evaluates all options he has and then picks the very best option. I doubt that someone who runs such an empire has he does has not spent an equal amount of thought into his own development.

Indeed. We know that he's prepared for many situations and plans ahead a lot. None of this indicates he's not a straight Fighter.


The OotS-World seems one to be in which most people are aware of their classes and make deliberate choices on levelup. Why should someone as Tarquin who is aware of these options and that he can make those choices not to ponder it the same way he is shown to ponder everything else?

Because he decided that just going straight Fighter was better for some reason. A decision that would be illogical in a game of D&D... good thing OotS isn't a game, then.

All in all, I think you're projecting the attitude of a typical optimizing player onto Tarquin without any reason beyond "well, it would make sense".

[Copperdragon]

Well, regardless, Tarquin isn't going to defeat Xykon, because that would steal the Order's thunder.

Of course not, but he is so prominently placed by now that we can assume he's going to play an important role. And apart from the IFCC, he seems to be the only candidate to pose an actual threat to Xykon on the strategic level (the tactical level being a D&D fight with spells and swords).
The Order has no strategic plan at all, they just want to destroy Xykon. Team Evil has a strategic plan. The IFCC has one. Tarquin is the only candidate on a far, empty field that could come up with one to fundamentally threaten Team Evil's attempt to secure the Gates for their plans (which would be a new thing to deal with for them).
I am very doubtful such a player gets put on the playing field without actually getting used to... play a role.

[Copperdragon]

All in all, I think you're projecting the attitude of a typical optimizing player onto Tarquin without any reason beyond "well, it would make sense".

I think that's all that is required for Tarquin.

Also note: I am not saying "It is this way!" but "It is likely it could be this way".
Right now, I consider it more likely that Tarquin at one point decided he'd multiclass to enhance his personal abilities to suit more his needs (be successful at adventuring and at building an empire) instead of staying a straight fighter.

I do not consider that any worse than drawing the other conclusion (which you seem to do). As I outlined above, I find the character we saw rounder as multiclass of some sort than a pure Fighter. Which does not mean it has to be that way.

[thereaper]

If he has enough levels in 3/4 or 1/2 BAB classes, he could be Epic despite only getting 3 attacks/round.

Clearly, Tarquin is a Bard.

[martianmister]

Clearly, Tarquin is a multiclass fighter/blackguard/dashing swordsman/warblade who specializes in bardic lore. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

[hamishspence]

It's implied here that Nale gets "makes things needlessly complicated" from his mother:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html

[martianmister]

It's implied here that Nale gets "makes things needlessly complicated" from his mother:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html

There goes my theory. :smalltongue:

[Zerter]

A lot of you seem to mix up powergaming and optimizing. Powergaming is going for the max amount of strength in a character (by whatever criteria you consider a character to be strong), optimizing is trying to make a certain concept as efficient as possible. Tarquin, in my view, seems to be an optimizer, he enjoys playing a 'weak' class (his concept being the fighter) and compensating by being smart about it. He is not a powergamer however because he would have not have taken levels in Fighter or a similiar class. So I am going for straight fighter, possibly with a prestige class.

[Copperdragon]

The more I think, the more likely it seems to me that Tarquin does have some levels that are at least Bard-ish.

We know Nale wants to be like his father and he tried to make "a bard, but that is not a bard" (taking Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer with a focus to enchantment instead of being a Bard because his father said they were "underpowered").
Everything Nale is is the attempt to be like his father.
Why the strange "Bard"-Thing? Does this come out of nothing? If his father was a pure fighter, should not Nale become one as well in the attempt to be "just like him"?

I think Tarquin as character makes a lot of sense as someone who started as Bard who then switched to Fighter (and his alignment to Lawful). It would explain his extreme Genre Savyness, his similarity to Elan when it comes to story and drama, his massive knowledge about all kinds of strange things and Nale's confusing build.

[Gift Jeraff]

The more I think, the more likely it seems to me that Tarquin does have some levels that are at least Bard-ish.

We know Nale wants to be like his father and he tried to make "a bard, but that is not a bard" (taking Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer with a focus to enchantment instead of being a Bard because his father said they were "underpowered").
Everything Nale is is the attempt to be like his father.
Why the strange "Bard"-Thing? Does this come out of nothing? If his father was a pure fighter, should not Nale become one as well in the attempt to be "just like him"?

I think Tarquin as character makes a lot of sense as someone who started as Bard who then switched to Fighter (and his alignment to Lawful). It would explain his extreme Genre Savyness, his similarity to Elan when it comes to story and drama, his massive knowledge about all kinds of strange things and Nale's confusing build.

My personal theory is that Tarquin was training Nale to copy his build, but then his sorcerous powers started manifesting on their own, which also led to his ego problem.

[Kish]

Pretty sure the reasoning behind Nale's build is the Evil Opposites theme.

But, if you look at the events in the comic in terms of strict in-world chronology, Nale has to have chosen to be a faux-bard years before he ever heard of Elan? Whatever is your point?

[Mantine]

Speaking of which, would a fighter/rogue/sorcerer even work, realistically?

Wouldn't you just incredibly suck at each three of them, while still facing ECL encounters matching your level?

[Kish]

Nale is very weak for his level.

Rich often doesn't concern himself with the "viability" of certain builds in the comic, but in Nale's case, it appears he does.

[Emmit Svenson]

I am legally required to pop up on every thread that focuses on Tarquin's class to push my theory that he has some blackguard levels, having had "friendly contact" with Sabine to meet the requirements.

[Acrux]

They do retain all their Bard abilities when becoming Lawful though- they just can't take more levels.

Way back in strip 50:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

Nale says that his father told him bards were underpowered. Maybe that was the voice of experience, with him changing alignment, and multiclassing, after a while as a bard?

He explains what he means by "underpowered" in 821 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html).

[IronMountaineer]

I agree that Tarquin seems to have bardic knowledge. Is there any prestige classes anyone know of that give bardic knowledge as a skill?

Also can you only take points in bardic knowledge skill equal to you levels of bard or could he still develop that skill after giving up the bard class?

[Kish]

Bardic Knowledge is not a skill in the points sense.

Tarquin has not demonstrated any of the abilities that go with the D&D ability Bardic Knowledge, however. It actually doesn't generally relate to the fourth wall. :smalltongue:

[Once a Fool]

I am once again baffled by this apparent need of many posters for Tarquin to have levels in a non-fighter class, just to live up to his perceived awesomeness.

It's really simple, folk:

If you think Tarquin is awesome, you might want to reconsider your opinion of the fighter class, because nothing that Tarquin has been shown to do so far is anything a high-level fighter is incapable of.

[Emmit Svenson]

I am once again baffled by this apparent need of many posters for Tarquin to have levels in a non-fighter class, just to live up to his perceived awesomeness.

For me, it has nothing to do with his awesomeness, and everything to do with little clues scattered in his story and Sabine's.

Besides, the strip already has an awesome, intelligent, single-class fighter. And zero blackguards, in a story with many paladins and a focus on how they fall.

[oppyu]

Malack was also playing the nations and he has both that twist and his undead nature. Why can't Tarquin have a personal twist as well as a setting twist?

@Gift Jerraf: You are right. Also he was still impersonating Thog, who can only make 3 attacks a round.
That would be one hell of a personal twist.

Vader: "Luke... I am not a pure fighter. I took a couple of bard levels to learn genre savvy."
Luke: "NOOOOOOOOOOO! IT CAN'T BE TRUUUUUUE!!!!!!!"

[Paseo H]

I am legally required to pop up on every thread that focuses on Tarquin's class to push my theory that he has some blackguard levels, having had "friendly contact" with Sabine to meet the requirements.

Indeed you are. Heck, it's in the Geneva Convention! :smalltongue:

[Copperdragon]

I doubt Tarquin is a pure fighter as we've seen how a lawful, smart pure fighter is played in OotS: Roy.

In some way, Tarquin is the Evil Opposite to Roy. Both are loyal to their friends, lawful, have a high int and a fighters.
In OotS your class is a very important part of what you are (I think this is more rooted in you picking classes that suit you instead of classes defining you, but that is nitpicking).
While the class never defines a character, all characters are some sort of paragons (not used in the D&D sense) or a stereotype of that class and there are only relatively few exceptions (as Belkar).

We've seen a straight Fighter being played out for 100s of strips (Roy) and Tarquin simply is not that. He's something very different (I'm not saying it has to be Bard but Bard would explain very well what we've been seeing).

We all also know that Nale is what he is because he was created as a throw-away joke for a short plot-sequence as Evil Opposite of Elan, but that does not have to mean Rich did not design his Father to "make sense on the big picture". It explains why Nale is possessed with Bards and why Tarquin is as savy as he is and why he can do much more than he should (note I would prefer it if he was a pure Fighter who got where he is on Int+Cha alone).

I also want to point out I do not think Tarquin to be "that AWWWEEESUME!" or that I even like him that much (I'm no Tarquin-fan). He's a great character that is somewhat badassish (therefore, Once a Fool, I'll disregard your advice).
I just think that what we learned about him, how he has acted in the comic cannot be explained, no matter how I grade it on a "scale ranging from lame to awesome", by being a pure Fighter. Or rather: It can be explained, but giving him a second class explains it even better. When presented with a choice where Option B explains something better than Option A, I like to pick Option A.


My personal theory is that Tarquin was training Nale to copy his build, but then his sorcerous powers started manifesting on their own, which also led to his ego problem.

I like this theory but I fear that's not it.
If Nale was copying Tarquin's build by being a Fighter/Rogue we had to assume Tarquin was a Figher/Rogue, yet this would leave out his strong bardish tendencies.
Tarquin has shown three aspects: He is a very strong Fighter, he can be a very elegant Fighter (like in a swashbuckler film), and he has strong bardish tendencies (his Genre Savyness, his love for the dramatic, his vast knowledge of things). Turning him into a Fighter/Rogue that Nale tried to emulate would remove that third aspect, which I find to be much stronger than the second, in some ways it's even more defining of Tarquin than him being a Fighter.
IF we argue Tarquin has more classes (we're doing it right now), we somehow need to squeeze in the third aspect as well, as it's more integral than the second (as the "elegant" fighting can be explained by a decent Dex and the proficiencies Tarquin get via the Figher class anyway). So it must have already been there when Nale tried to copy it, which means the Sorcerer isn't something unforeseen that happened - it must be part of the plan.

[Kish]

I doubt Tarquin is a pure fighter as we've seen how a lawful, smart pure fighter is played in OotS: Roy.

Uh. That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying Julia must be multiclassed because otherwise she'd have to act more like Vaarsuvius.

[Roland Itiative]

I like the theory that he was a Bard at some point, and having some Blackguard levels, with Sabine's contact with Nale starting as a consequence of Tarquin's contact with the lower planes also sounds good. But in general, I take a "wait and see" stance on Tarquin's class(es).

What I don't get is why everyone seems to think Tarquin's party is Epic level. I get the impression that they're very high level individuals (or, at least, Tarquin is, and Malack has a comparable ECL), but not quite level 20 yet. Their little scheme would sound quite pointless to me, specially seeing for how long it's on the works, if they had the kind of power an Epic character does.

[Charity322]

Tarquin is clearly 16+ in levels, as he is immune to Holy Word. However In this strip, Tarquin only makes 3 attacks with no reason not to do so. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html) Also Malack, despite his vampirism, is only 11th or 12th level, meaning he is not epic at all, but yet is still an equal with Tarquin's other allies (who probably would not keep him around if he was trailing behind).

Further, Rich said in his villain workshop that it's important to have every villain have a twist that turns their character on its head, which every major antagonist has done. The example Fire King hated the elf side of him, Redcloak is a sympathetic villain, Sabine is working for something higher (but what are her true loyalties), Xykon always has some new trick whenever you think you've seen his full power, Rich has implied that the question of whether Nale would still have been evil if raised by the Barmaid Mother will be answered, Miko thought she was chosen by the gods, Tsukiko died very soon and Malack is a vampire (with his children being his creations).
As a major villain, or at least the one with the highest ratio of speech bubbles: appearences, Tarquin must have a secret too. Maybe he has levels in something we don't expect.

How do we know Malack is only 11th or 12th level? And who was the Fire King?

[Mike Havran]

We all also know that Nale is what he is because he was created as a throw-away joke for a short plot-sequence as Evil Opposite of Elan

Eh, that throw-away joke of a character had more appearences than any other antagonist. There's no reason to think the Giant planned him to be one sub-arc villain.


What I don't get is why everyone seems to think Tarquin's party is Epic level. I get the impression that they're very high level individuals (or, at least, Tarquin is, and Malack has a comparable ECL), but not quite level 20 yet. Their little scheme would sound quite pointless to me, specially seeing for how long it's on the works, if they had the kind of power an Epic character does.

Malack has ECL at least about 23. If the rest of the party is similar, then they are Epic. Their scheme enables them to live comfortably in the shadow, instead of fighting heroic adventurers all the time.


How do we know Malack is only 11th or 12th level?We don't. Malack needs to have at least 12 spellcaster levels to have Craft Staff feat. And he has yet to cast a 7th level spell or higher. I guess he has 13-14 Cleric levels.

[Kish]

How do we know Malack is only 11th or 12th level?

We don't, but considering he taunted Durkon about Durkon's using a third-level spell, he implied that he, Malack, believes in busting out the most powerful combat spells you have without hesitation, so it's significant that we've never seen him cast any spell above sixth level, with a notable absence of Destruction. And the exchange they had after he failed his Dispel check against Durkon implies that Durkon is a higher caster level than Malack.


And who was the Fire King?
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html

[Copperdragon]

Uh. That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying Julia must be multiclassed because otherwise she'd have to act more like Vaarsuvius.

It does make sense. Your example isn't showing the symmetry you wanted to show.
Julia has not shown any ability or trait that would usually be tied to another class and not to her.

Tarquin does. A lot. What he does is going way beyond "Roleplay Favour for your class".
Please note I do not say "He cannot be a pure fighter!" but "I think the character seems rounder and easier to explain as he is as multiclass to me than as pure fighter". I stated the reasons for that several times before (and a big point is Nale attempting to emulate his father in all regards).


Eh, that throw-away joke of a character had more appearences than any other antagonist. There's no reason to think the Giant planned him to be one sub-arc villain.

I do not see how this is relevant to quote. No matter if Nale or Tarquin were first, I stated I think we have a whole setup now that makes sense. No matter if the Egg or the Hen was first, as we now look at the full circle of the Egg-Hen-System.
We do know the Giant just started to outline the Big Story back then and we do know that the LG started out as pure Evil Opposite without any ties beyond the current setup. So yes, at first they were just that: The sub-plot-villains (who might have been meant to escape from the beginning to become recurring villains).
But nothing of that has any bearing to the claim that I think Tarquin and Nale now are something that is fully coherent.

[Kish]

It does make sense. Your example isn't showing the symmetry you wanted to show.
Julia has not shown any ability or trait that would usually be tied to another class and not to her.

Tarquin does. A lot.

An easy thing to assert. And yet, your support for it seems to consist of repeated assertion. I'm stuck with guessing to even figure out what "abilities and traits" you're referring to. A sense of humor rather than being a straight man? Being genre savvy? His sense of drama? Hair?

All distinguish Tarquin from Roy...and yet, none points to a class other than fighter.

[Copperdragon]

All distinguish Tarquin from Roy...and yet, none points to a class other than fighter.

That's also an assertion. We're not doing Class & Level Geekery here, where you need solid proof for class features.
What I tried (and apparently failed to communicate at least to you) was to outline a general picture of Tarquin. While it is completely possible to see Tarquin as pure Fighter I think the whole picture, including Nale trying to emulate some bardish traits of his father, makes more sense to me if I consider him to have some Bard in his class-history.

[Zerter]

Malack has ECL at least about 23. If the rest of the party is similar, then they are Epic. Their scheme enables them to live comfortably in the shadow, instead of fighting heroic adventurers all the time.

Don't know how you get to 23, but regardless, Malack is not a PC so he has nothing to do with ECL. I would say level 12 Cleric + Lizardfolk (+1 CR) + Vampire (+2 CR): a really weak CR 14. Pretty sure Tarquin would eat Malack for breakfast, as would Vaarsuvius.

[Gift Jeraff]

Eh, that throw-away joke of a character had more appearences than any other antagonist. There's no reason to think the Giant planned him to be one sub-arc villain.


In fact, Book 1 commentary even says he had always planned Nale to be a recurring antagonist.

[Mike Havran]

Don't know how you get to 23, but regardless, Malack is not a PC so he has nothing to do with ECL. I would say level 12 Cleric + Lizardfolk (+1 CR) + Vampire (+2 CR): a really weak CR 14. Pretty sure Tarquin would eat Malack for breakfast, as would Vaarsuvius.

If we assume that Tarquin's party is not a challenge formed out of thin air but a legitimate bunch of evil adventurers, then I think they should level up as usual. And Malack's ECL would be at least 12 Cleric levels, 8 LA for Vampire, 1 LA for Lizardfolk and 2 RHD for Lizardfolk >= 23.

[Copperdragon]

In fact, Book 1 commentary even says he had always planned Nale to be a recurring antagonist.

Yet, it's doubtful more than the current encounter had been planned at this point. But this makes no difference in the end anyway. Tarquin wasn't planned back then, but he is now.

[Zerter]

If we assume that Tarquin's party is not a challenge formed out of thin air but a legitimate bunch of evil adventurers, then I think they should level up as usual. And Malack's ECL would be at least 12 Cleric levels, 8 LA for Vampire, 1 LA for Lizardfolk and 2 RHD for Lizardfolk >= 23.

Ah, I thought vampire was 7 LA, you're right.

I don't agree however. ECL is simply not relevant unless you are a PC. But even if that was not the case. What possible use would a ECL 23 party have for Malack? It might be nice to have him stay at home and clean the kitchen, cast some Cleric spells, domination and make some kids when needed. Other than that he would be a real drain on resources. Not just because he gets a share of the treasure, but especially because someone that's barely contributing is draining so much of the XP. Any real CR 23 would stomp Malack within less than a round. Heck, he could not survive a single disintegrate by Vaarsuvius (DC 22 fort. vs a likely fort. save of +8). Pretty hard to make it to 23 for him.

By that same logic by the way, if Durkon ever made it into a party again, that entire party would be roughly ECL 22.

[hamishspence]

What possible use would a ECL 23 party have for Malack?

Healing, buffing. Maybe he was the Elan of the party?

[Copperdragon]

What possible use would a ECL 23 party have for Malack?

Maybe the party wasn't thinking in terms of Power and Use for the party? Maybe it was more along of the lines of "Friendship" or "Characterplay"?

[Olinser]

He was pretending to be Thog, that's reason enough to not make more than 3 attacks right there.

Even if he wasn't straight fighter, I expect he'd be multiclassed with something MORE effective than straight fighter, not less.

And he is most certainly epic. Do you have any idea how expensive a ring that regenerates hp faster than 1/hour is?

Tarquin basically rules an entire country with an iron fist. Cost isn't an issue for him - the man eats phoenix livers and throws 50,000 gp parties because he can.

[Once a Fool]

The argument that Tarquin can't be a straight fighter because Roy already is one makes absolutely no sense, even from a narrative perspective.

The fighter class in 3.X is all about flexibility of builds. (In fact, that was always the beautify of it.) It is entirely reasonable for a story to show us two entirely different types of straight fighter. And that appears to be exactly what this comic has done.

[Copperdragon]

The argument that Tarquin can't be a straight fighter because Roy already is one makes absolutely no sense, even from a narrative perspective.

Luckily, that was never claimed this way.

[The Troubadour]

Maybe Tarquin is a Warblade?

[Morty]

Julia has not shown any ability or trait that would usually be tied to another class and not to her.

Tarquin does. A lot.

Such as? What sort of abilities does Tarquin show that do not fit a straight Fighter?

[ReaderAt2046]

I think Tarquin as character makes a lot of sense as someone who started as Bard who then switched to Fighter (and his alignment to Lawful). It would explain his extreme Genre Savyness, his similarity to Elan when it comes to story and drama, his massive knowledge about all kinds of strange things and Nale's confusing build.

It would also explain how he could have loved and been loved by Elan and Nale's mother, despite the "irreconcilable alignment differences" that split them apart. If Tarquin starts out as a "dark Elan", a handsome dashing villian with a flair for drama, that is someone that I could see Elan's mother falling in love with. Then as he grows older and more serious and Lawful, they begin to split apart.

[weeping eagle]

I think his class is "dude" and he took a bunch of levels in "surviving to become an evil dictator". What more do you need to know?

[rgrekejin]

The evidence would seem to suggest that Tarquin is definitely a straight fighter. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html)

Not that there's anything wrong with the alternative :smallbiggrin:

[Rig]

It would also explain how he could have loved and been loved by Elan and Nale's mother, despite the "irreconcilable alignment differences" that split them apart. If Tarquin starts out as a "dark Elan", a handsome dashing villian with a flair for drama, that is someone that I could see Elan's mother falling in love with. Then as he grows older and more serious and Lawful, they begin to split apart.

Yeah... no sell. I'm still less then convinced Lawful's not a facade if Shojo was Chaotic. Neither is his profound overbearing seriousness a defining feature.

[Once a Fool]

The argument that Tarquin can't be a straight fighter because Roy already is one makes absolutely no sense, even from a narrative perspective.


Luckily, that was never claimed this way.

If I may, some context:


Besides, the strip already has an awesome, intelligent, single-class fighter.


I doubt Tarquin is a pure fighter as we've seen how a lawful, smart pure fighter is played in OotS: Roy.

Now, I realize that you, personally, have stated that Tarquin could be a straight-fighter (but probably isn't). I just marvel at your ability to leap to the conclusion that genre-savvy=bard levels, when there is [b]no[/i] evidence that this is the case. Or that Finesse fighting=swashbuckling, when fighters are equally capable of doing so.

But I doubt I'll convince you, and I won't win the internets by doing so, anyway, so I'll move on.


While the class never defines a character, all characters are some sort of paragons (not used in the D&D sense) or a stereotype of that class and there are only relatively few exceptions (as Belkar).

This seems like a particularly inaccurate statement, however, as the entire fighter class was designed such that no one build could serve as a paragon. There are as many different examples of fighters as there are combinations of race, multiplied by combinations of stats, multiplied by combinations of feats, multiplied by combinations of skills. It is not possible to be a stereotype of the class.

[dps]

We know Nale wants to be like his father
Everything Nale is is the attempt to be like his father.


Assertions like this have been made by a could of other posters. I'm sorry, maybe I missed it or have forgotten it, but has this ever actually been stated in the comic itself?

[Aquillion]

Also, even if he has more than 3 attacks, he did have a reason not to make more: he didn't want to end the fight quickly.He was also pretending to be Thog. Thog is probably level 15, and therefore gets only 3 attacks.

[Copperdragon]

Now, I realize that you, personally, have stated that Tarquin could be a straight-fighter (but probably isn't).

Please check the context. The claim was a bit different than this. And yes, I still think a bardish-Tarquin makes more sense than a pure fighter-Tarquin. Why?
It's all above. I'll no re-type it. It's no big case anyway and as I said, it's not based on solid proof that would convince anyone who's already in the opposition.

[B. Dandelion]

My only question would be: if Tarquin were something other than a straight fighter, would it affect the actual plot, or just the abstract mechanics? If Tarquin turns out to be a Warblade, or part Bard, does the audience sit up and go "so that's it! What a twist!"

Because if the answer is no, I suspect he won't be. "Can there not be facets of life that are not defined solely by class?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)

[Copperdragon]

This seems like a particularly inaccurate statement, however, as the entire fighter class was designed such that no one build could serve as a paragon.[/i]

I'm talking about how OotS portrays the classes.


My only question would be: if Tarquin were something other than a straight fighter, would it affect the actual plot, or just the abstract mechanics? If Tarquin turns out to be a Warblade, or part Bard, does the audience sit up and go "so that's it! What a twist!"

No, of course not.

[Kish]

It's no big case anyway and as I said, it's not based on solid proof that would convince anyone who's already in the opposition.
It doesn't actually seem to be based on anything, solid or otherwise. You're apparently assuming...something about Roy, you haven't said what...is fundamental to "how OotS portrays the [fighter] class." And Tarquin has, instead of that unidentified something, something you consider more fundamental to how OotS portrays the bard class.

[Copperdragon]

It doesn't actually seem to be based on anything, solid or otherwise.

I have outlined that on the bigger picture I think it makes sense to consider Tarquin as Multiclass for reasons stated above. You do not share that estimate? Fine. Be my guest. I'm not going to pretend there's actual evidence when there's none and I find it silly people try to argue as if there was.

This is a roleplaying game and I stated I think Tarquin makes more sense to me if I consider him Bard/Fighter. It makes sense in regard to his character, to Nale, to his behaviour.
You do not want to take such a story- or roleplay-based approach to model characters? That is fine.

Also note, again, I'm not saying "It has to be this way", I just state "I think it makes more sense to me this way". Which I stated already three times or so.

[ambartanen]

Several people in the topic have requested exhaustive proof that Tarquin is not a pure fighter and that really confuses me. What conclusive evidence is there that he even has a single level in Fighter? A Bard 8/Blackguard 9 would be able to do everything we've seen Tarquin do so far while making the game mechanics much more straightforward*. That build would also be holding back on the use of smite good and spellcasting while a pure fighter would have already exhausted most of his tricks.

I am also surprised that the point about already having a smart charismatic pure fighter was brushed off so easily. Not because the comic already has one of these (obviously we've seen multiple paladins, clerics, rogues, wizards, barbarians and so on with different personalities) but because we know exactly why Roy is a pure fighter- he is intentionally making a sub-optimal decision to remain a pure fighter to spite his father and uphold the family tradition (initially primarily because of the former but by this point mostly because of the latter).

By the way, I do think that Tarquin has some levels in fighter- probably just enough to get him to the point where he can actually take his custom prestige class although I can definitely see him as a bard/fighter as well. As for the epic levels though, I don't think he is quite there yet. What we've seen from epic level characters so far (other than Xykon perhaps) is that they tend to build a strong and lasting power base with many followers. Story-wise this would happen when Tarquin's party manages to gain control of the whole continent which they haven't quite achieved yet. I would guess he's currently slightly higher than Redcloak, possibly level 20 (as powerful as one can be before going into the epic levels).

* It is extremely difficult to make a good despot/diplomat/schemer out of a figther. Even a fighter with 18 int would have a hard time keeping the very high Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Sense Motive skills we've seen while remaining a competent fighter.

P.S. As for Malack's ECL, the linear guild is pretty good indication that it doesn't apply to enemies. Zz'dtri is always the same wizard level as V despite the +2 ECL for drow and Sabine already had rogue levels when the party met her at level 7-8 despite the +12 ECL for succubi (whether she is actually a succubus or some kind of similar devil, the ECL should be about the same).

[Mike Havran]

Strip 813 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html) strongly suggests that Tarquin is a fighter, or at least melee character.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Defeating a superior combatant with nothing but your wits and environment...it's like something I'd have done when I was your level.

It implies that Tarquin, in a fight of life and death, wouldn't use any spells when he was at Roy's level. So, ~13 levels of non-spellcasting class.

[ZarDaranth]

I'd say with Tarquin's ability to counteract Elan's Dashing Swordsman antics, his obviously high charisma, and his love of genre-savvy, maybe Dastardly Swordsman? I mean, it's obscure, and he could have quite a few fighter levels before that.

I think Tarquin is built, stat-wise, a lot like Roy, so he may not have any real 'stat dumps' like many other characters have (Elan's intelligence, Belkar's Wisdom, V's Charisma). And given having potent strength and charisma, he's not at a disadvantage with any weapon in any situation. Plus it gives him a few tools to be a dangerous mastermind.

If that is the case (very unlikely, but possible), it's only a matter of time before Nale finds an obscure prestige class to join, and it's likely to be a Sabine-introduced one, so things could get very interesting, very fast.

[martianmister]

He could be a straight warrior. (third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html))

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Warrior

[Der_DWSage]

Here's my headcanon, just to satisfy the original point-that he's below 21st level, and that he's not a straight fighter.

Tarquin is a level 20 Expert who selected his combat feats very, very carefully.

That's right. Once again (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Lord_Shojo), the OotS is being bested by someone with NPC levels.

[Shred-Bot]

Here's my headcanon, just to satisfy the original point-that he's below 21st level, and that he's not a straight fighter.

Tarquin is a level 20 Expert who selected his combat feats very, very carefully.

That's right. Once again (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Lord_Shojo), the OotS is being bested by someone with NPC levels.

Not bad... and since we're going with NPC classes, we have to suggest Commoner 20 (with chicken-infested, obviously). The axe? Chicken with a permanent illusion. (Can it be a coincidence that "whumwhumwhumwhum" and "buckbuckbuckbuck" have the EXACT SAME value in [American] Scrabble?) The pterodactyl? Chicken with polymorph any object cast on it. The phoenix they got the pate from? Painted chicken that they set on fire!

IT ALL FITS

[Morty]

Several people in the topic have requested exhaustive proof that Tarquin is not a pure fighter and that really confuses me. What conclusive evidence is there that he even has a single level in Fighter?

He calls himself a warrior, wears heavy armor and uses no spells or named special abilities. Compare it to the evidence that he's not a straight fighter, which is non-existent. The only "evidence" people have for Tarquin not being a fighter is the claim that it would be more optimal in a game of D&D, which OotS isn't. Noone is asking for exhaustive proof. The requests have been for any sort of proof whatsoever, and none has been provided - only long diatribes on D&D character optimization which are mostly meaningless in the context of this story.

[ZarDaranth]

He could be a straight warrior. (third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html))

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Warrior

Honestly, that could work, except for the fact that he likely has a bunch of feats which augment his combat and noncombat skills. Pun dueling, probably a boatload of Diplomacy (maniupulating the Order to spend time with Elan, manipulating Malack to work with Elan), probably some ranks of Perform(Act) to keep up his role as General (when he's clearly the shadow ruler).

I guess he could be a straight fighter/warrior with huge charisma, and lots of charisma modifying magic items, tons of cross-class skill usage, and almost all free feats being in charisma-based feats. I just think Occam's Razor would break apart a pure fighter theory based on Tarquin's shenanigans.

[Snails]

Speaking of which, would a fighter/rogue/sorcerer even work, realistically?

Wouldn't you just incredibly suck at each three of them, while still facing ECL encounters matching your level?

A villain who prepares well for the combat and uses reasonable teamwork can work around the suck issue. The unwieldiness is a problem for PCs, who cannot choose what kind of trouble they need to dive into. For NPCs, not necessarily.

Really I think fighter/rogue/sorceror combination is a joke inspired by how one might make a "non-Bard Bard" -- it is another dig at the bard class. He fights a little better than Elan. He casts a little better than Elan. And his social encounter effectiveness is slightly better than Elan. At middling levels, one can easily imagine an optimized Nale outshining a poorly developed Elan.

Part of Elan's arc is to surpass his brother in all things, which is possible because of the bard gains some nice tricks at these higher levels, if applied with an iota of savvy. Mechanically, Elan's spellcasting is completely leaving Nale's sorcery in the dust at this point, which is one reason why Nale had to resort to a Wand of Enervation to keep the combat interesting.

[Kish]

Honestly, that could work, except for the fact that he likely has a bunch of feats which augment his combat and noncombat skills. Pun dueling, probably a boatload of Diplomacy (maniupulating the Order to spend time with Elan, manipulating Malack to work with Elan), probably some ranks of Perform(Act) to keep up his role as General (when he's clearly the shadow ruler).

I guess he could be a straight fighter/warrior with huge charisma, and lots of charisma modifying magic items, tons of cross-class skill usage, and almost all free feats being in charisma-based feats. I just think Occam's Razor would break apart a pure fighter theory based on Tarquin's shenanigans.
I can't actually think of any feats Tarquin has demonstrated that aren't on a fighter's bonus feat list.

He does have a high Charisma. And I expect there would be very little agreement on which of the things he's said demonstrate ranks in Diplomacy or Bluff. But I don't know what "Charisma-based feats" you're thinking of.

[ZarDaranth]

I can't actually think of any feats Tarquin has demonstrated that aren't on a fighter's bonus feat list.

He does have a high Charisma. And I expect there would be very little agreement on which of the things he's said demonstrate ranks in Diplomacy or Bluff. But I don't know what "Charisma-based feats" you're thinking of.

I'm not 100% knowledgeable in the area of what feats are available for fighters (or if there are any that give bonuses to Diplomacy and Bluff), and given Tarquin's long-lived experiences (still thinking of pun-dueling), would try and meta-game the heck out of whatever obscure feats/classes there were.

And for demonstrating Diplomacy, I'd have to say calming Malack's rage towards Nale in order to get him to work in the Linear Guild as being the biggest one. There's got to be some potent rolls that have to be made for trying to talk down someone who plans on murdering and mounting the head of a teammate as a trophy. Especially if Tarquin was bluffing about letting Malack kill Nale (I think Tarquin is far too egotistical to let his son be murdered by Malack).

[Snails]

And for demonstrating Diplomacy, I'd have to say calming Malack's rage towards Nale in order to get him to work in the Linear Guild as being the biggest one. There's got to be some potent rolls that have to be made for trying to talk down someone who plans on murdering and mounting the head of a teammate as a trophy. Especially if Tarquin was bluffing about letting Malack kill Nale (I think Tarquin is far too egotistical to let his son be murdered by Malack).

A Fighter15 could have 9 ranks in a cross class skill. Add in a Cha 18 for another +4. Add in the Skill focus feat for +3. There are also synergy bonuses for Diplomacy. Tarquin could easily have a +20 Diplomacy this way. +20 is sufficient to achieve gobsmacking, but within the realm of plausible, results.

A human fighter with a 14 Int gets a respectable 5 skill points per level. He could have maxxed out Ride, Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, plus a few odd skill points to sink into languages and the like (e.g. Drow sign language).

[Longest Skies]

I think Tarquin is built, stat-wise, a lot like Roy, so he may not have any real 'stat dumps' like many other characters have (Elan's intelligence, Belkar's Wisdom, V's Charisma). And given having potent strength and charisma, he's not at a disadvantage with any weapon in any situation. Plus it gives him a few tools to be a dangerous mastermind.

I am not to familiar with Tabletop games I am afraid, but are "stat" are different from build right?

Because I would agree, though his Dump Stat could be Wisdom? IDK toying around with your good son's team when your long time friend is forced to work with the slayer of his "children." doesn't seem that wise when your old friend knows how you fight.

The more I look over the comic, with my limited understanding of course. Tarquin may not be epic, but I can see him not being a straight fighter.

The "Tarquin used to be an evil bard" theory honestly makes the most sense out of most of the ones I have read so far.

[Kish]

I'm not 100% knowledgeable in the area of what feats are available for fighters (or if there are any that give bonuses to Diplomacy and Bluff), and given Tarquin's long-lived experiences (still thinking of pun-dueling), would try and meta-game the heck out of whatever obscure feats/classes there were.

And for demonstrating Diplomacy, I'd have to say calming Malack's rage towards Nale in order to get him to work in the Linear Guild as being the biggest one. There's got to be some potent rolls that have to be made for trying to talk down someone who plans on murdering and mounting the head of a teammate as a trophy. Especially if Tarquin was bluffing about letting Malack kill Nale (I think Tarquin is far too egotistical to let his son be murdered by Malack).
So...it's not that you have specific feats in mind, you just think if Tarquin was a single-classed fighter he should seem more like a walking blender and less like a...party leader?

[Copperdragon]

When it comes to Diplomacy and "people who are in some relation with you", it is always a bit tricky to decide what is "Diplomacy" and what is the roleplay-result of the "Leadership Feat". I'd not really be surprised if Tarquin had that. As long as he does not treat his followers badly, he'd get a lot of "following for free" without any requirement of Diplomcy.
With his Level and Charisma, he could do a whole lot with Leadership to influence people.

In the case of Nale, you could argue that Tarquin uses his feat-powered Leadership-ability to make Nale "follow" him. What happened there could either be seen as Diplomacy or as some sort of recruitment. The rules are totally blurry when it comes to "how does the Leadership feat actually work in regards to RP and hireing people" (if you go beyond "The people are paid" it really can get muddy).

[ZarDaranth]

I'll agree that Tarquin's archetype of a melee with a huge amount of leadership skills and non-melee stat scores is a lot like Roy. But I don't think Tarquin would be satisfied with being a single class fighter.

Roy did it because 1.) He wanted to cheese off Eugene and 2.) He respected Horace (I guess both of those run together). Roy is dedicated to his class; even when he was questioned on why he didn't choose cleric with his wisdom score he was sure of his choice.

I think the point of origin of the difference between the two is that Tarquin isn't satisfied with ordinary. He's all about style and legacy; an iron fist in a classy velvet glove, per se. If he could find a prestige class or a multiclass combination that would let him be both a juggernaut and a suave badass, he would.

And no, I don't believe fighters to be a walking blender (besides the fact that every person I play with that does pure fighters builds their character like that). I just think that Tarquin, as a character, would find something that had a little more style.

I mean, after dueling Elan, he had his epiphany that Elan would have to attempt to kill him to secure his legacy? This has to mean that he figured Elan to be more of a poetic figure to de-throne him than his upstart son Nale. The man knows style, which I'll give credit (but he's still Lawful/Evil to the core).

[Aquillion]

I can buy that he has a special PRC or two.

But I find it very, very hard to believe that he has only 15 BAB (which means he should have more than three attacks.) A much more likely explanation is that he deliberately took fewer than his full attacks because he was pretending to be Thog; or that it just didn't bother to show all of them.

[Emmit Svenson]

The argument that Tarquin can't be a straight fighter because Roy already is one makes absolutely no sense, even from a narrative perspective.

The fighter class in 3.X is all about flexibility of builds. (In fact, that was always the beautify of it.) It is entirely reasonable for a story to show us two entirely different types of straight fighter. And that appears to be exactly what this comic has done.

By this logic, it would be even more reasonable to show us twenty-seven entirely different types of straight fighter. Which, if we count enough nameless soldiers and guards, it surely has. Genius!

Let's come at this another way. Tarquin and his gaggle of empire-builders are all about hidden power. Malack's shown his hand--though perhaps he still has a hole card or two. He's hidden his vampire nature well enough that he can suckerpunch enemies with powers they never suspected he possesses.

I suspect Tarquin has quite a few tricks left up his sleeve too. Blackguard levels, I tell you!

But it's good to know that some folks think that's a stupid, crazy idea. If I'm right, it'll much more satisfying if my prediction wasn't a common one.

[ZarDaranth]

While blackguard would make him incredibly badass, I'm still not sold on it. I still think that he'd take class levels in something that would allow him to utilize his charisma score more adeptly in combat.

(Granted, given his talk in 821, I'd assume it was bard or bard-esque, due to his viewpoint on the power of bards.)

[Caex]

While blackguard would make him incredibly badass, I'm still not sold on it. I still think that he'd take class levels in something that would allow him to utilize his charisma score more adeptly in combat.

(Granted, given his talk in 821, I'd assume it was bard or bard-esque, due to his viewpoint on the power of bards.)

I'm also not sold on blackguard (though the in comic hints at his past w/Sabine do make me hold back a bit on disregarding it), but it does have Dark Blessing at second level, piling the charisma modifier on saves, which is not insignificant.

[ZarDaranth]

I always assumed Tarquin's understanding of Sabine's skills meant the set of skills related to being a succubus, i.e. sexual/seduction skills.

If Tarquin knew anything about Sabine's other skills (duties for the IFCC), or if he ever was involved with the IFCC but got out of it, he'd likely want to kill Sabine on the spot for trying to pull Nale into whatever shenanigans they're up to.

Because I've always had this feeling that Tarquin is more focused on himself (and family, which is close to being about himself) than the greater capital "E" Evil agenda out there. Granted, there's something about throwing a knife at your son to teach him a lesson, but I've seen worse parents.

[Morty]

Blackguard doesn't fit Tarquin's personality in the slightest. Tarquin openly scoffs at the idea of objective morality and only cares about himself, making it unlikely that he'd serve the idea of Evil, archfiends or evil gods.

[Copperdragon]

I also do not think Blackguard fits Tarquin. Blackguards serve a greater purpose of evil, they are in some way Agents of Evil (even if they work for something specific like a lord, a certain project, an order, or a god) as Paladin's are Agents of Good. Tarquin only serves himself and he does not even acknowledge the existence of "evil" as concept. Blackguards a religious class (see the concept above and knowledge(religion) is even a class requirement), but Tarquin does not strike me as particularly religious.
Also, if he was a Blackguard why doesn't he use those class abilities?

[Snails]

I think the point of origin of the difference between the two is that Tarquin isn't satisfied with ordinary. He's all about style and legacy; an iron fist in a classy velvet glove, per se. If he could find a prestige class or a multiclass combination that would let him be both a juggernaut and a suave badass, he would.

It is a nice thought, but we cannot name a single class that compellingly fits what we know about Tarquin.

A touch of Bard would be believable, only Tarquin is an obvious Lawful. Blackguard makes mechanical sense, but, as others have pointed out, Tarquin is most certainly not a "champion of evil".

Some kind of Fighter variant like Cavalier or somesuch is possible, but it is not substantially different from plain Fighter. Marshall? We are just grasping at straws.

I do not see why he could not be a guy with Fighter levels, good stats, and thus a big boatload of feats he used very efficiently to gain impressive results.

[Kish]

Also, if he was a Blackguard why doesn't he use those class abilities?
The only actual class abilities he's yet used are fighter ones (i.e., feats). For the most part, he relies on abilities that show being generically intelligent and being generically high-level.

("Piercing the fourth wall" is not actually a D&D bard ability.)

[Bulldog Psion]

I also do not think Blackguard fits Tarquin. Blackguards serve a greater purpose of evil, they are in some way Agents of Evil (even if they work for something specific like a lord, a certain project, an order, or a god) as Paladin's are Agents of Good.

A very good point. He'd never make himself the servant of a greater power, especially one ancient, intelligent, and malign enough to actually enforce his servant status, rather than being a fat, dumb, young dragon easy to manipulate as a power behind the throne.

[CletusMusashi]

Tarquin is a fighter whose father was a bard, who specialized in witty banter such as pun-wars. This is where he acquired, among other things, his genre-savvy worldview, but he could never actually take the class himself because his dream of uniting all the bards for world domination was too Lawful Evil to qualify.

[Emmit Svenson]

... Blackguard makes mechanical sense, but, as others have pointed out, Tarquin is most certainly not a "champion of evil".

Oh, but I disagree. He is a marvelous salesman of the Evil point of view.

[Sr.medusa]

I also think he is a fighter (for the elegance of the build), but if you make me bet, I put my money on Duelist levels. They give him bluff, bonus initative and elaborate parry, plus the prerequisite of Catch arrow, it would be awsome if he can turn that crappy class in cool stuff.

[Agnostik]

I also think he is a fighter (for the elegance of the build), but if you make me bet, I put my money on Duelist levels. They give him bluff, bonus initative and elaborate parry, plus the prerequisite of Catch arrow, it would be awsome if he can turn that crappy class in cool stuff.
Doesn't Duelist lose most of its class abilities (and the whole point, really) when wearing armor?

EDIT: Okay, I read the description and Duelist has at least some useful abilities they can use when armored. So yeah, why not.

[ZarDaranth]

Tarquin is a fighter whose father was a bard, who specialized in witty banter such as pun-wars. This is where he acquired, among other things, his genre-savvy worldview, but he could never actually take the class himself because his dream of uniting all the bards for world domination was too Lawful Evil to qualify.

Honestly, that would make the most sense, as well as drawing parallels between Roy and Elan even more. Tarquin, the angsty teenager, rebels against his Chaotic Good bard father, who gave him his dramatic flare and love of wit and banter, to be a Lawful Evil (CLASS_UNDETERMINED). And then, he has a child who turns out to be a Chaotic Good bard, who, by sake of epic planning, would be the key to being an ULTIMATE LEGEND. Given Tarquin's love of legacy and "epic" storytelling, it could work.

[ZerglingOne]

I have a theory that Tarquin has a prestige class that is an evil mirror or equivalent of the Dashing Swordsman, with abilities designed for stylish villains, including pun defence.

Clearly he was using Punetti's defense!

[Snails]

Oh, but I disagree. He is a marvelous salesman of the Evil point of view.

From a subtle way of thinking, perhaps, yes. But I believe the expectation is that a Blackguard would be an overt champion of evil, which Tarquin most certainly is not.

The Blackguard is not merely another class that happens to be evil. It is a mirror opposite of the Paladin. It is approximately as weird for a Blackguard to deny the importance of Good versus Evil as it would be for a Paladin to say "Doing Good does not really matter".

I am not asserting that it is mechanically impossible or forbidden for Tarquin to be a Blackguard. It just feels absolutely completely wrong to me. YMMV.

[Rig]

I always assumed Tarquin's understanding of Sabine's skills meant the set of skills related to being a succubus, i.e. sexual/seduction skills.

If Tarquin knew anything about Sabine's other skills (duties for the IFCC), or if he ever was involved with the IFCC but got out of it, he'd likely want to kill Sabine on the spot for trying to pull Nale into whatever shenanigans they're up to.

Because I've always had this feeling that Tarquin is more focused on himself (and family, which is close to being about himself) than the greater capital "E" Evil agenda out there. Granted, there's something about throwing a knife at your son to teach him a lesson, but I've seen worse parents.

I have a suspicion that damn well everyone thinks demons have their own agenda. Tarquin is probably risking her connection on the basis that she genuinely loves his son. Also, Nale is a sorcerer. They must have experience in dealing with powerful entities and getting away with it one way or another. The IFCC might even be interested in family ties, though I'll admit that Nale is due a lot of character development. Nevertheless, he's got "potential" (or so sabine thinks) in some way.

[Morty]

The only reason for Tarquin to be a Blackguard is that he's Evil. An Evil warrior type is no more required to be a Blackguard than a Lawful Good warrior is required to be a Paladin. Just ask Roy.

[enderlord99]

I think Tarquin is a factotum!

[JackRackham]

I think Tarquin is probably (low) epic, but not a straight fighter.

It does not seem likely an optimizer like him would stick to a single class for 20 levels that adds not much beyond the first levels apart from "more of the same".
I'd very much like him to be a straight fighter showing that playing smart is worth more than any overrated class feature and that you can work with your ability scores alone (which you can all get to at least "decent to good" with magic items).
But somehow, I doubt/fear that is all. At one point he'll reveal he is a level 10 Fighter/Level 10 "Some aristocrat PrC that gives all kinds of skillpoints/diplomacy-friendly features".

Actually, I do think he could be a Level 10 Fighter/Level 10 Bard. So far, he has not shown any of the bardic abilities when it comes to casting, but he does seem to have their genre-savyness.
And if you substitute "has to perform" with "can do inspiring speeches" you can also show he's using Inspire Courage and all those other bardic abilities. He's reserving his arcane casting for extreme circumstances and tries to work with his wits, his strength and items as far as he can.

He strikes me as a straight fighter and I'll tell you why. He counters Elan's puns and indicates that he's trained to counter other obscure fighting styles. This counter feels like a feat to me - a homebrewed one to counter the homebrewed class ability - and I can't see any class combo other than a straight fighter wasting a feat on something so obscure, let alone doing the same for other, equally obscure styles. Snatching arrows feels like it could be a feat as well.

PS: If you're making a fighter as walking blender, you're doing it wrong (that's what barbarians are for). I mean, any straight-damage build will be done by level 10 as a fighter. No, high-level fighters are about tactical combat and versatility in combat - always having an option or being able to shut down all the opponent's options. This is not to say they generally succeed in this, but they can pull it off vs melee and unwary spell casters if they're careful with their build and play just as smart.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Snatching arrows feels like it could be a feat as well.

It is. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Snatch_Arrows)

1234

[JackRackham]

It is. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Snatch_Arrows)

1234

Thought so, but I thought it might be (should be, really) a monk class ability as well. This is a perfect example too. If you follow the link, you see that little trick took three fairly crappy feats to pull off. Who but a fighter would do that!?

[Snails]

He strikes me as a straight fighter and I'll tell you why. He counters Elan's puns and indicates that he's trained to counter other obscure fighting styles. This counter feels like a feat to me - a homebrewed one to counter the homebrewed class ability - and I can't see any class combo other than a straight fighter wasting a feat on something so obscure, let alone doing the same for other, equally obscure styles. Snatching arrows feels like it could be a feat as well.

Agreed. Tarquin feels more like a 15th or 16th level straight Fighter that is pretty well optimized than some other class keeping its cards close to its chest. Consider how many feats he would have. 1 for Human race, 6 for 15 levels, 8 or 9 for 15 or 16 Fighter levels. That is a minimum of 15 feats. He can easily afford to spend 1 or 2 or 3 on obscure situations and still be a rocking meleeist.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Thought so, but I thought it might be (should be, really) a monk class ability as well.

Monks can get Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat at level 2, and get Improved Unarmed Strike for free at level 1, so almost.

[JackRackham]

Monks can get Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat at level 2, and get Improved Unarmed Strike for free at level 1, so almost.

That explains why it exists then. It's a feat intended for monks ('cause who else would take it in a real campaign?).

[quasit]

Also , a fairly cheap pair of gloves. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gloves_of_Arrow_Snaring)

[CletusMusashi]

Tarquin as a non-bard S.O.B.(ard) fits the "cycle of father and son relationships" narrative whatchamathingy.

Tarquin as Blackguard, not so much.

I mean, isn't he already busy enough with his agendas for Elan and Nale?
Hanging around the coliseum with job offers to turn Roy into a black guard just gets... busy.

[JackRackham]

Proficiency with a whip is another feat, another one a non-fighter is unlikely to take (unless he has warblade levels; they have a floating exotic weapon proficiency). The evidence for his straight-fighter-ness builds.....

[Eldhusgaur]

Two theories:

1. Elan/Nale's mother is a barmaid right now, maybe she and Tarquin adventured together, and decided to settle down, start a bar, that kind of thing, then Tarquin got into trouble at the bar (Over someone touching his wife), decided he needed to be stronger or something and became a fighter and ended up taking it too far.

2. Tarquin doesn't just want to be father of the year, he wants to be father of the ages. Influencing his twin sons in a way that would make for the greatest story ever told of two brothers in the Ootsverse, influencing both of them in a way that would make them polar opposites early on (Elan with his CG mom, Nale with LE Tarquin) and bringing them together later on for some epic confrontation.

just my 2 cents.

[Bird]

Proficiency with a whip is another feat, another one a non-fighter is unlikely to take (unless he has warblade levels; they have a floating exotic weapon proficiency). The evidence for his straight-fighter-ness builds.....
Bards get whip proficiency free at first level.

[JusticeZero]

Honestly, I assume that Tarquin is Bard/Fighter/some unknown-to-us PRC that combines Bardic features with full BAB progression and heavy armor that serves him a similar purpose to Elan's Dashing Swordsman.

[quasit]

Tarquin doesn't have to be proficient with a whip,as nobody must acording to d&d ruleset, to use it; he'd just have a penalty on attack rolls if he's not proficient and that's all. As we still didn't see him fighting with the whip, he may just carry it to control his mount and he's wielding it because he slammed his +x greataxe into belkar's face and until he retrieves it back, it should do the work (Is he " :belkar: :the kind of warrior who doesn't pack a secondary weapon" ?)
Might be wrong, but then WHY does him spend a feat on such a weapon and don't pack a, say, heavy mace or warhammer (more usefull for overcoming certain damage reductions and also is less prone to break agaist a sunder attemp) ?
Well, a "I dind't remember to bring another weapon" doesn't fit his crazy preparedness either, but else idk what use could give to a whip that another weapon coulden't fit.
So in the end I think the whip is just a tool that he's using as a makeshift weapon.
That or it's going to be plot relevant somehow or he's got some shenanigan in mind or is just set for another action movie reference. :smallbiggrin:

[Scow2]

I say he's a Bard/Paladin of Tyranny with Devoted Performer(letting him be Lawful), with a bit of Fighter and Duelist on top of those. He advances "Evil" by being the absolute exemplar of it.

Actually - he may be a Duelist, and not actually be wearing heavy enough Armor to disable his class features, since we know his suit has the Glammered property. He may just be a guy in a fancy suit that looks like heavy armor.

[Mando Knight]

I always assumed Tarquin's understanding of Sabine's skills meant the set of skills related to being a succubus, i.e. sexual/seduction skills.

There's friendly contact with an evil outsider, and there's "friendly contact" with an evil outsider. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html)

[happycrow]

What about a fighter/swashbuckler?

I'd buy fighter with a good bit of swashbuckler. Swashbucklers as a class could be presumed to a) have really weird fighting styles b) like Bard, tons and tons of genre savvy. And a swashbuckler with a whip is as easy as "Zorro." A swashbuckler could also be presumed to have heard of punfighting, given its relative thematic proximity to Dashing Swordsman (also, gives Deflect Arrow, potentially turnable to "grab arrow."

Does that mean he'd have to stick with light weapons? I seriously doubt it. But he's stupidly-good with a basic dagger, as seen by his duel against Elan, a weapon any Tyrant worth his salt carries as a matter of course even when "dressed down."

[MrBanana]

Evidence for Bard:
Knowledge (plot)
Nale is like his father, and he has cross-classed
Charismatic, must use charisma skills a lot

Evidence against:
"Bards are UP"
No magic yet
No use of music so far (minor point if he's cross-classed)
Alignment clash

So it's possible, but it does't seem right.

The evidence for use of fighter is pretty overwhelming, so it more becomes a question of whether he's a pure fighter, or he has cross-classed.

I'd say he could be fighter with some levels in rogue, to get skill points he needs. He definitely needs a class with access to Diplomacy, and he certainly isn't a cleric.

[Kish]

Evidence against:
"Bards are UP"
No magic yet
No use of music so far (minor point if he's cross-classed)

Don't forget "Bards can't be Lawful and there's no indication Tarquin has changed alignment at any point."

[MrBanana]

Don't forget "Bards can't be Lawful and there's no indication Tarquin has changed alignment at any point."

I completely forgot that. He could have levels in rogue then (I always found it ironic that a rogue can be lawful and a bard can't), if we agree he has diplo and other CHA skills.

[dps]

I always found it ironic that a rogue can be lawful and a bard can't

Yeah, ironic is a polite way of putting it.

[Necris Omega]

While I don't believe that Tarquin is likely a straight fighter, I'm of the mind that he is indeed an epic level character.

He's the age, the skill, and he's been playing half a continent like a fiddle for decades. To me, that'd be enough to push any character that far.

As for being straight fighter... On one hand, if he IS epic, I could see the argument for his fourth wall molestingly awesome genre savvy, but... even so, looking at what all he's accomplished, more over, his general modus opperandi, it just seems more likely to me that he'd either have something like a touch of bard, or some exotic prestige class thrown into the mix to lubricate the gears of being a political mastermind and/or general.

Is it possible? I'd say so. But I just don't think a straight up fighter of Tarquin's level and accomplishment is more likely than something more diverse.

[The Troubadour]

While I don't believe that Tarquin is likely a straight fighter, I'm of the mind that he is indeed an epic level character.
He's the age, the skill, and he's been playing half a continent like a fiddle for decades. To me, that'd be enough to push any character that far.

At level 11, you're already considered legendary. I think it's possible Tarquin hasn't reached epic level yet.

[ZarDaranth]

If we're going down to Alignment for proof for or against Bard levels for Tarquin, I'd hope we can use the Shojo Defense.

"Technically, I'm a 14th level Aristocrat. Heck, I'm not even Lawful!" (289)

An ambiguously lawful manipulator ruling in an apparent Lawful guise who feels that he needs to hide his true alignment (or blurring thereof) to satisfy the needs of those around him? And he claims to break the rules for the sake of protecting those who would be consumed in a volatile crapstorm around him?

Never been done before. :smallwink:

[Kish]

Um. What?

The number of times and different ways you've used "Lawful" in that post serve to occlude what you're getting at. Are you suggesting Tarquin is not Lawful Evil?

[ZarDaranth]

I'm just saying that like Shojo, looks can be misleading, and ruling a city doesn't make Lawful a guarantee.

[Kish]

If I repeated the question, would I get an answer?

I do not believe anyone ever suggested that Tarquin is Lawful because he rules a city.

[Copperdragon]

I'm just saying that like Shojo, looks can be misleading, and ruling a city doesn't make Lawful a guarantee.

Tarquin's entire behaviour screams Lawful Evil. It is consistent with every scene where he acted and he kept that "ruse" even when he did not have to, when it makes no sense to show a ruse instead of the real character.

Unless this changes we really cannot challenge his current alignment. I have no idea if he changed it at one point in the past, but arguing that he currently isn't LE holds less water than a bucket without its bottom.

[ZarDaranth]

If I repeated the question, would I get an answer?

I do not believe anyone ever suggested that Tarquin is Lawful because he rules a city.

I was stating that the fact that Shojo wasn't Lawful, and that aspects of personality, profession, or stature do not define alignment for characters that blatantly don't give a crap about personal integrity. And last time I checked, Tarquin didn't admit to anything, alignment-wise, and we all know he's genre-savvy and enjoys that fact.

I'm also stating that unless the character's class or ability usage requires certain alignments, you cannot be 100% certain of the alignment behind the character for the entire lifetime of the character.

[Gift Jeraff]

Tarquin hasn't admitted anything about his alignment because he thinks he's above the alignment system.
Tarquin's lawyer called him Lawful Evil during the divorce.
When someone made a topic asking what makes Shojo Chaotic and Tarquin Lawful, Rich answered the question instead of saying that Tarquin is not Lawful.
Tarquin's behaviour screams Lawful Evil.

[ZarDaranth]

(I hadn't realized that Rich had made clarifications in the alignment matter.)


With regards to the divorce, I've always been under the impression that divorce lawyers have no problem making crap up to make the other side look bad. And as for his actions, they do scream incredibly evil to me. I always figured the evil side of Tarquin really enjoyed the "Evil Dictator" role.

My only reason to question his alignment is that I feel like he is hiding some obscure prestige class, and his dancing around the alignment question is meant to make it hard to tie down exactly what ace he has up his sleeve.

[JackRackham]

Tarquin doesn't have to be proficient with a whip,as nobody must acording to d&d ruleset, to use it; he'd just have a penalty on attack rolls if he's not proficient and that's all. As we still didn't see him fighting with the whip, he may just carry it to control his mount and he's wielding it because he slammed his +x greataxe into belkar's face and until he retrieves it back, it should do the work (Is he " :belkar: :the kind of warrior who doesn't pack a secondary weapon" ?)
Might be wrong, but then WHY does him spend a feat on such a weapon and don't pack a, say, heavy mace or warhammer (more usefull for overcoming certain damage reductions and also is less prone to break agaist a sunder attemp) ?
Well, a "I dind't remember to bring another weapon" doesn't fit his crazy preparedness either, but else idk what use could give to a whip that another weapon coulden't fit.
So in the end I think the whip is just a tool that he's using as a makeshift weapon.
That or it's going to be plot relevant somehow or he's got some shenanigan in mind or is just set for another action movie reference. :smallbiggrin:
Whips are light/cool. My guess is, he's taken another set of feats to justify the whip. Like, maybe he's got a tripper's starter pack or something else appropriate.

Also, sure Bards get whip proficiency, but they don't otherwise fit. I mean, we've seen no evidence for it whatsoever and a multiclassed character wouldn't have all these feats to waste on pun-dueling and arrow-snatching. Besides, a bard-fighter, with anything approaching parity in levels or a lean toward fighter (basically anything but a one-level dip in bard or one/two-level dip in fighter) would be terrible.

[Bird]

For some reason, I doubt that Tarquin actually has a feat or class ability related to pun dueling. His exact words were "I know how to defend myself against many obscure combat techniques." My impression was that anyone can counter a Dashing Sworsdman pun with a pun of their own, as long as they're savvy enough to do it.

[Mike Havran]

I don't think there's any in-comic character that represents Lawful Evil behaviour better than Tarquin.

And I have no doubt that he was the same when he was young. Bard is out of consideration for me.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I was stating that the fact that Shojo wasn't Lawful, and that aspects of personality, profession, or stature do not define alignment for characters that blatantly don't give a crap about personal integrity. And last time I checked, Tarquin didn't admit to anything, alignment-wise, and we all know he's genre-savvy and enjoys that fact.

I don't think you understand what "lawful" means in the context of D&D alignment. It is in the sense of order versus chaos, not whether someone follows the law of the land (a lawful character may be a law-breaking criminal but strictly adhere to a moral code of their own... a lawful rogue makes perfect sense to me). Darth Vader is lawful evil ("Bringing peace to the galaxy even if we have to choke the **** out of it") despite opposing the old republic. Tarquin has always behaved extremely lawfully from the moment we meet him: he promises no harm will come to Elan or his friends, and sticks to his promise even though it means butting heads with an ally.

Shojo may have pretended, but he made no lawful actions. Actions speak way louder. He achieved lawful ends by extremely chaotic means (such as ongoing deception). As Rich put it: Shojo subverted an existing system, whereas Tarquin created one.


Law (or Lawful) is the belief that everything should follow an order, and that obeying rules is the natural way of life. Lawful creatures will try to tell the truth, obey laws, and care about all living things. Lawful characters try to keep their promises. They will try to obey laws as long as such laws are fair and just.

If a choice must be made between the benefit of a group or an individual, a Lawful character will usually choose the group. Sometimes individual freedoms must be given up for the good of the group. Lawful characters and monsters often act in predictable ways. Lawful behavior is usually the same as behavior that could be called good.


Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

The whip use would fit nicely with having been a bard, but I agree with mike above, I don't see it. It is setting up an Indiana Jones gag, and I don't know what else.

[happycrow]

With a whip being light, I still see that working for fighter/swashbuckler. Gives him the ability to choke a caster (I used to practice with a whip for shows, a whip around the neck is no joke) and keep him from blasting you. Still seems viable to me. "Reverse Zorro" fits his play, too.

[CletusMusashi]

He brought he whip with him because it was a birthday present from Sabine. Kind of like when you throw on an ugly sweater or whatever just so the person who gave it to you feels appreciated.

[Erelamar]

Tarquin the Swordsage


17+ Level, clearly a close-combat (I'm trying not to say martial for fear of people confusing it with meaning martial adept) character with good Reflex (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html) and Will (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) saves, and only has three attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html) in a full round. These are the main reason that I don't believe he is a Warblade.

Best evidence of a high wisdom is 5th panel here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html) Nale does not understand because his intelligence is high, but his wisdom is poor. Swordsages add wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html) to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html) AC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html), which would look more like whiffs than someone just taking it on their armor. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html)

Evasion-appearing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html) avoidance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html) of area effect.

The later two require light armor, which stumped me for a long time, because we know Tarquin is in plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html).Then I randomly discovered the Halfweight enhancement, which for +3 makes any armor considered light. Where is it? The Underdark (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html) sourcebook. BTW, I do believe Tarquin has been in this armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) the whole time. That's why Durkon doesn't recognize it when he saw it with True Seeing, because he's only ever seen the Empire of Blood glamour.

A variety of manuevers performed by Tarquin that are easily replicated with martial manuevers, but not so with other abilities:

Black Pearl of Doubt (Diamond Mind 3) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html) Thematically, it is very close to what is happening.
Death from Above (Tiger Claw 4) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html)
Counter Charge (Setting Sun 1), Soaring Throw (Setting Sun 5) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) versus Belkar and Durkon respectively.
Irresistible Mountain Strike (Stone Dragon 6) on Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html) and Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html).
Quicksilver Motion (Diamond Mind 7) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html). He uses it to move, then full round throws axe at Belkar.

Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon disciplines both have Greataxe as an associated weapon.

Some possible Tarquin Feats (If Tarquin's 17th, he has 7 feats)

Improved Unarmed Combat, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Dodge, Sidestep Charge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html)
Mounted Combat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html), Haley said she was attacking the Pterodactyl, and it does look like Tarquin is taking evasive action.
Martial Stance/Study, for some Devoted Spirit power to increase his healing beyond the Ring of Regeneration.

And, lastly, this build would conform to Malack's statement that Tarquin was not trying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html). In that fight he used only 6th level maneuvers and lower, which means since we know he is at least 17th level, he would have access all the way up to 9th level.

I posted that months ago in the Class and Level Geekery. Not too sure about the feats now, and a mithril breastplate could work easier for the armor restriction, but other than that this is my favorite interpretation of Tarquin's class.

[Imgran]

I like the idea of Tarquin being a straight fighter who has managed to finesse the advantages of that class all the way to what he is now with his own savvy, and subtlety and tactical insight (going out of my way not to cite stats here, just characteristics we know TQ has).

There's something to be said for rocking it old school in a world full of new ideas and making it all not just work but dominate.

Thog may be elegant in thog simplicity but Tarquin has him beat even on that front, since Thog is multiclass.

[Snails]

Yeah, ironic is a polite way of putting it.

In a class based system, not every feature will fit well with every reasonable concept. The Rogue is the "core Core skill guy" class (being one of the nominal Standard 4). There would be no real point in having a Lawful Skillful class and non-Lawful Skillful class.

The Paladin, Barbarian, Monk, and Bard are all more focused specialists -- and alignments restrictions there are somewhat justified.

[Olinser]

Tarquin the Swordsage



I posted that months ago in the Class and Level Geekery. Not too sure about the feats now, and a mithril breastplate could work easier for the armor restriction, but other than that this is my favorite interpretation of Tarquin's class.

Yes, him whirling and chucking Durkon like that is definitely the best argument against him being a straight fighter. I can't think of a single fighter ability that could replicate that.

[hamishspence]

I think there's a Throw Enemy feat- but that might only work on enemies one size smaller than you.

Roy throws Xykon's body (minus head) despite being a straight fighter.

[Olinser]

I think there's a Throw Enemy feat- but that might only work on enemies one size smaller than you.

Roy throws Xykon's body (minus head) despite being a straight fighter.

But at that point Xykon wasn't an active combatant - wouldn't Roy at that point just be throwing an inanimate object?

Actually though you are right, I looked it up, there is a Counter Throw that is a general feat.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Counter_Throw_%283.5e_Feat%29

Although it does require Improved Grapple, Tarquin arguably already has that (Malack claims he taught him exotic holding techniques).

The only hitch would be that you throw the enemy in the direction he was already moving (if he was coming straight at you, he gets thrown behind you), but I'm sure Rich could fudge that easily.

[hamishspence]

Note that not all D&Dwiki feats come from official publications.

Still, the basic idea- that throwing people only requires a feat rather than a class- is worth thinking about.

(One can take feats for maneuvers, too- so even if Tarquin used Tome of Battle content, he wouldn't have to take levels in ToB classes).

[Snails]

D&D is abstract. A DM could reasonably choose to describe a very good Bullrush result as "He picked you up by the collar and tossed you 25 feet".

[Copperdragon]

I think "throwing an enemy" only requires Strength and to "Fit the situation". Roy surely has the Str and "Fit the situation" is something OotS seems to operate on.
It could work the same in any RPG. A DM might allow the throw-thing once in a while, but when a player starts to abuse it (instead of taking Trip, Bull Rush, Whatever) he'd demand the action is backed by a feat (namely Trip/Improved Trip, Bull Rush or a custom Throw Enemy).

[Man on Fire]

I have a theory that Tarquin has a prestige class that is an evil mirror or equivalent of the Dashing Swordsman, with abilities designed for stylish villains, including pun defence.

(Warning, I haven't read the whole thread yet)

maybe he has PrC that is to Bard what Blackguard is to Paladin? Causes alignment shift to Lawful and grants things base class wasn't goot at (like Blackguard's Sneak Attack), in this case weapon and armor proficencies and some combat feats. Probably also grants Charisma bonuses to things like Dashing Swordsman does (that would make tarquin evil counterpart to 4th character in comics after Elan, Roy and Shojo - Julio Scroundel). Maybe it even allows you to trade off your Bard levels for levels in this class, just like Blackguard lets you trade your Paladin levels.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yeah maybe Tarquin is an Anti (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Anti-Paladin_%283.5e_Class%29)-Bard. :)

[Hurkyl]

Speaking of which, would a fighter/rogue/sorcerer even work, realistically?

Wouldn't you just incredibly suck at each three of them, while still facing ECL encounters matching your level?

From what little I recall, Fighter/Thief/Magic User was a thing way back in 1E rules. I have vague recollections of the Bard class being introduced as a being a more coherent version of the F/T/M, rather than the F/T/M being described as convoluted way to mimic a bard.

It might make good symmetry with Haley's father being a first-edition thief.

[SadisticFishing]

Why not warblade, if we're going ToB...? Heavy Armor, intelligence, et cetera... I guess no Sun-style, but I'd be very happy with Warblade Tarquin.

[Alaris]

Sorry, the 3-attacks-in-a-round argument is kind of invalid. Rich Burlew has already stated that time in regards to panels is not entirely consistent; one panel could be six seconds, or a day, depending. He could have made those "3 attacks" within 3 rounds for all we know, and just have an item that protects him. (though he boasts about being powerful enough to resist it).

[Olinser]

Sorry, the 3-attacks-in-a-round argument is kind of invalid. Rich Burlew has already stated that time in regards to panels is not entirely consistent; one panel could be six seconds, or a day, depending. He could have made those "3 attacks" within 3 rounds for all we know, and just have an item that protects him. (though he boasts about being powerful enough to resist it).

An equally believable reason is that he was impersonating Thog at the time, who only has 3 attacks per round. Making 4 in a round just gives the game up.

[Olinser]

My own personal opinion that Tarquin is not a straight fighter is that he didn't pack a spare axe.

Seemingly a minor thing, but as a straight fighter, especially a 2-handed fighter, a LOT of your combat ability comes from Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (and the Greater versions of each), Improved Critical, and Power Critical. Presumably Tarquin had them for Greataxe, but by switching to a whip, unless he wasted 6 extra feats getting them for whips, he just lost +2 attack and +4 damage on every strike, as well as the increased Critical threat. I can't imagine that Tarquin would waste the feats getting them for 2 different weapons.

Tarquin would be well aware of this, I just can't picture somebody as savvy as him packing a spare weapon that he loses power using (the whip).

[dps]

An equally believable reason is that he was impersonating Thog at the time, who only has 3 attacks per round. Making 4 in a round just gives the game up.

Also, Roy noted that he was fighting defensively, which to me would at least imply not attacking as much as would have been possible.


My own personal opinion that Tarquin is not a straight fighter is that he didn't pack a spare axe.

Seemingly a minor thing, but as a straight fighter, especially a 2-handed fighter, a LOT of your combat ability comes from Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (and the Greater versions of each), Improved Critical, and Power Critical. Presumably Tarquin had them for Greataxe, but by switching to a whip, unless he wasted 6 extra feats getting them for whips, he just lost +2 attack and +4 damage on every strike, as well as the increased Critical threat. I can't imagine that Tarquin would waste the feats getting them for 2 different weapons.

Tarquin would be well aware of this, I just can't picture somebody as savvy as him packing a spare weapon that he loses power using (the whip).

OTOH, we know Roy is a straight fighter, and he didn't pack a spare sword--and ended up having to wield a club during the fight with the orges.

[Kish]

"Tarquin ever took Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Improved Critical: Greataxe, or any feat with Greataxe in its name" is itself a major assumption. He has shown a lot of feats which are on the fighter bonus list...and which go with a completely different build than Roy's, a generally defensive rather than offensive build.

His axe was in storage. "He is particularly dependent on it" is not a good bet.

[jidasfire]

Personally, I think Tarquin is a pure fighter, and Roy gives us the best reason why when he talks about how he can spot the differences between him and Thog. He describes Thog's fighting style as pure offense, which we see based on the sheer nastiness of Thog's hits and his ability to manhandle Roy himself across an entire battlefield. Meanwhile, he speaks of Tarquin as being heavily defensive, and this is supported by the text. Tarquin probably has every fighter feat that allows him to defend himself against his opponents, which makes sense given his status as a master planner. During his solo fight against the Order, his hits, while certainly effective, are not devastating. He nickels and dimes his opponents while making sure they can't do enough damage to topple him. It's an extremely effective strategy for fighters that most people overlook, especially when coupled with his obviously high stats and massive trove of magic items. So while it's possible he's holding back some extra tricks of another class, I personally think it's more interesting if he doesn't need such things, and functions effectively as a single-class fighter.

[Akari Itagami]

Tarquin would be well aware of this, I just can't picture somebody as savvy as him packing a spare weapon that he loses power using (the whip).

Have you ever given a thought on Tarquin not entirely restrained by DnD rules to pack a whip he's so interested in? As in American not being that proficient in speaking Spanish though they pick up a class locally due to not being brought up in Spain (Local Slang Proficiency)? :smalltongue:

[Olinser]

Also, Roy noted that he was fighting defensively, which to me would at least imply not attacking as much as would have been possible.



OTOH, we know Roy is a straight fighter, and he didn't pack a spare sword--and ended up having to wield a club during the fight with the orges.

Yes, but Roy didn't pack a spare weapon at ALL. Tarquin had a spare whip.

[JusticeZero]

From what little I recall, Fighter/Thief/Magic User was a thing way back in 1E rules. I have vague recollections of the Bard class being introduced as a being a more coherent version of the F/T/M, rather than the F/T/M being described as convoluted way to mimic a bard.
Actually, Bards were Core 1e. They used Druid spells, and required you to first dual-class to between 5-8 in both Fighter and Rogue.

[Copperdragon]

My own personal opinion that Tarquin is not a straight fighter is that he didn't pack a spare axe.

Packing a second and third "spare" of everything and anything is a "player" thing. It is not what is realistic for all characters to do, especially if they are in a story, not a game.
No jedi in Star Wars had a "spare" lightsabre, no Commando-soldier has a spare knife, no Wizard has a spare wand. It's just not how "real" people pack. At most, you have a sidearm (knife, shortsword, pistol) to replace your lost sword/assault rifle if you are not a PC in a typical RPG setting. And I doubt that that many players outfit their characters with a spare of their main weapon, shield, main armour etc.

[Olinser]

Packing a second and third "spare" of everything and anything is a "player" thing. It is not what is realistic for all characters to do, especially if they are in a story, not a game.
No jedi in Star Wars had a "spare" lightsabre, no Commando-soldier has a spare knife, no Wizard has a spare wand. It's just not how "real" people pack. At most, you have a sidearm (knife, shortsword, pistol) to replace your lost sword/assault rifle if you are not a PC in a typical RPG setting. And I doubt that that many players outfit their characters with a spare of their main weapon, shield, main armour etc.

The point is not that Tarquin should have a spare of everything.

The point is that he already HAS a spare - and of a type wildly different from what he was using. I can't think that somebody as savvy as Tarquin would pack a weapon that severely gimps his combat ability if he were a straight fighter.

Now, I could see the spare being a club or mace, being a different damage type, but a whip is still a slashing weapon.

And if you want to play the 'real people' card, when going off to battle in the swords and armor era, soldiers would usually pack multiple spare weapons. When you are planning on hacking at people possibly encased entirely in metal, your weapon doesn't have a high life expectancy.

[Aquillion]

What makes you think the axe was his Weapon Focus weapon? I think he was just using it to impersonate Thog (who always uses one).

[RunicLGB]

I've always Figured Tarquin as a straight Fighter as well, perhaps up to 17th level or maybe higher. If He had any other levels I'd have guessed Monk, just for the free stunning fist and then either combat reflexes or Deflect arrows. He fits the alignment after all.

As for the axe, it was a backup weapon as he stated, used only to blend in as Thog, but it likely had good enchantments on it. The stunning enchantment could explain the stun it had on Durkon when he tossed it at him. Since stunning only happens on a crit, that would mean he threw on good faith and scored a natural 20, which basically means the laws of awesome took control as it rotated through the air and dove right into the dwarf's face.

His whip might be his primary weapon, it fits much better as a defensive weapon, with its reach and bonuses on disarm and trips.

[Forikroder]

They do retain all their Bard abilities when becoming Lawful though- they just can't take more levels.

Way back in strip 50:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

Nale says that his father told him bards were underpowered. Maybe that was the voice of experience, with him changing alignment, and multiclassing, after a while as a bard?

but Tarquin thinks there underpowered since they havent ruled the cosmos yet so if anything hed want to be a bard


I've always Figured Tarquin as a straight Fighter as well, perhaps up to 17th level or maybe higher. If He had any other levels I'd have guessed Monk, just for the free stunning fist and then either combat reflexes or Deflect arrows. He fits the alignment after all.

As for the axe, it was a backup weapon as he stated, used only to blend in as Thog, but it likely had good enchantments on it. The stunning enchantment could explain the stun it had on Durkon when he tossed it at him. Since stunning only happens on a crit, that would mean he threw on good faith and scored a natural 20, which basically means the laws of awesome took control as it rotated through the air and dove right into the dwarf's face.

His whip might be his primary weapon, it fits much better as a defensive weapon, with its reach and bonuses on disarm and trips.

the axe is his main weapon he even remarks "oh i finally get to take the Axe out" or something along those lines

also since Malack seemed to think Tarquin was undoubtably toying with the OoTS it hints hes more of an agressive fighter then defensive

[RunicLGB]

the axe is his main weapon he even remarks "oh i finally get to take the Axe out" or something along those lines


What I was trying to get across was that he doesn't have weapon specialization or anything in any weapons, making him more flexible. The Axe might have been something he enjoyed from time to time, and was thus excited to get back out, but it is by no means his "main".



also since Malack seemed to think Tarquin was undoubtably toying with the OoTS it hints hes more of an agressive fighter then defensive

The fact that he was toying doesn't mean he needs to be aggressive more often, just that he can do better.

As a middle ground, perhaps his true effort involves making use of more aggressive defense, via counter attacks and attack of opportunity devastation that fighters are fully capable of. Such tricks are very possible with a whip since he can disarm, trip, free attack from improved trip, and possibly extra iterave attacks, followed by trip attacks of oppurtunity against people who try to close in his reach or stand up or rearm themselves. Defense becomes Offense.

[Forikroder]

What I was trying to get across was that he doesn't have weapon specialization or anything in any weapons, making him more flexible. The Axe might have been something he enjoyed from time to time, and was thus excited to get back out, but it is by no means his "main".

you ahve no evidence for that, if hes a main class fighter he almsot certainly ahs a few feats for 2 handed axes

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html

even look here "ill ahve to remember to pack a spare axe next time... i guess a whip will have to do"

[RunicLGB]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html

even look here "ill ahve to remember to pack a spare axe next time... i guess a whip will have to do"

I absolutely forgot that bit, and concede the point to you.

[Raineh Daze]

Could just be a preference for 1d12 two-handed damage against 1d2 and tripping tricks, though. :smallconfused:

[Lombard]

Here, let me solve this thread for you.


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4628329&postcount=3

[AstralFire]

Cosmopolitan feat and a handful of other things could give Tarquin the ability to easily maintain skill points in a variety of areas. From an optimization standpoint, he may choose to remain straight Fighter simply because he finds warlords narratively more interesting and effectively intimidating than magicians. Simply put, under my theory he does not expect to engage in direct combat often enough for it to matter what class he personally takes - and when he does fight, he relishes melee superiority.

I'll point out that the Fighter is, throughout the entirety of 3.x, the pre-eminent class for melee combat, and most high damage cheese builds rely on Fighter or Barbarian heavily. The exotic variations such as Warblade are about making the class less of a trap for new players, and giving them more combat options beyond "I hit things with a club." Given that the Giant doesn't seem to want to promote characters having "heavy dip" builds except for humor, it's simple enough to reduce that to Straight Fighter.

He could easily have Prestiged into a more powerful class, and he may have held back up to this point - but Tarquin, Malak, and Xykon have been used to emphasize truly effective evil counterparts of the PCs.

[Kish]

...Xykon?

Who is Xykon supposed to be a counterpart of? He's the main villain; the Evil Counterpart thing is for the Linear Guild and accessories thereof.

[anacalgion]

And he is most certainly epic. Do you have any idea how expensive a ring that regenerates hp faster than 1/hour is?

:smallamused: Couldn't he have just hidden his old rings of regeneration from the edition change?

[Raineh Daze]

:smallamused: Couldn't he have just hidden his old rings of regeneration from the edition change?

Huh? Looking at 3e stuff, even that's still only 1 HP per hour. :smallconfused:

[jidasfire]

...Xykon?

Who is Xykon supposed to be a counterpart of? He's the main villain; the Evil Counterpart thing is for the Linear Guild and accessories thereof.

While it's true that Xykon is hardly a Linear Guild-esque evil opposite of the PCs, the case could be made that he and Roy contrast each other rather well. Roy, after all, is a warrior who uses strategy, while Xykon is a caster who relies mostly on brute strength.

[AstralFire]

...Xykon?

Who is Xykon supposed to be a counterpart of? He's the main villain; the Evil Counterpart thing is for the Linear Guild and accessories thereof.

As a whole, yes, but he demonstrated the effective use of Power to V.

The Linear Guild has largely not been relevant to the character growth of the OotS - they're superficial counterparts, owing to Nale's superficial mind.

[Aquillion]

Huh? Looking at 3e stuff, even that's still only 1 HP per hour. :smallconfused:I think they mean AD&D (that is, 2e). As I recall, an AD&D ring of regeneration not only granted regeneration of one hp per turn (which was worth more back then, because damage was less likely to blast through your HP and one-shot you), but regenerated limbs and could bring you back from the dead (in AD&D, damage was tracked after death; even when you were dead, it would continue to regenerate you, and if it brought you back into the positives, bam, you're alive again, at no cost.) Obviously the final power was the reason it was so prized.

It used to be considered one of the best items in the game, for good reason. 3e nerfed it into the ground.

[SadisticFishing]

While it's true that Xykon is hardly a Linear Guild-esque evil opposite of the PCs, the case could be made that he and Roy contrast each other rather well. Roy, after all, is a warrior who uses strategy, while Xykon is a caster who relies mostly on brute strength.

Woah. You can spot opposites anywhere if you look hard enough. Both Xykon and Roy are smarter than they look, in charge of their given groups, but don't always do the right thing for their members. They've also both "died" once during the course of the comic. They both seem to love having crowns. Et cetera, et cetera.

[Mike Havran]

I think they mean AD&D (that is, 2e). As I recall, an AD&D ring of regeneration not only granted regeneration of one hp per turn (which was worth more back then, because damage was less likely to blast through your HP and one-shot you), but regenerated limbs and could bring you back from the dead (in AD&D, damage was tracked after death; even when you were dead, it would continue to regenerate you, and if it brought you back into the positives, bam, you're alive again, at no cost.) Obviously the final power was the reason it was so prized.

It used to be considered one of the best items in the game, for good reason. 3e nerfed it into the ground.

Still, Tarquin seemed to regenerate more than 1HP/turn.

[Blue1005]

Bards can't be Lawful, however.

Why cant bards be lawful? I know in PHB it says that. But what is the logic behind it?>??

[Der_DWSage]

Still, Tarquin seemed to regenerate more than 1HP/turn.

Yes, but the 3e edition of the ring regenerates 1 HP/hour. And 'seeming to' regenerate more than 1 HP/turn could either be Rich taking liberties with the rules, or simply a difference in the art style.

A handy link to the modern ring. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#regeneration)

[baerdith]

Bards can't be Lawful, however.

Sure they can, they just can't ADVANCE in the Bard class.

SRD:
Ex-Bards
A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities.

[Olinser]

Yes, but the 3e edition of the ring regenerates 1 HP/hour. And 'seeming to' regenerate more than 1 HP/turn could either be Rich taking liberties with the rules, or simply a difference in the art style.

A handy link to the modern ring. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#regeneration)

Uh, that ring says 1 point of damage PER LEVEL per hour. And it heals nonlethal damage at 1 point of damage per level every 5 minutes. So if Tarquin is level 18, he healed 18 points of damage - about the level expected from a 10th level cleric's Cure Moderate Wounds. From the amount of damage graphic on him, that sounds about right.

Sure, it's not the stupidly overpowered regeneration of the past. But if you're level 15, an extra 15 HP every combat is nothing to sneer at - plus the added benefit that over time, you considerably cut down on the amount of post-combat healing a cleric has to do.

[Raineh Daze]

That implies Tarquin's got some crazy Damage Reduction going on, if a sword through his chest and a bunch of other attacks was somehow less than 18HP (since he's fully healed pretty rapidly).

I've always read the ring as 'after an hour of receiving the injury, you've healed [level] amount of HP', which is an insignificant expenditure of 90,000 GP. [level] amount of HP in battle once an hour is also kind of insignificant if you can get that much inflicted in one hit.

Besides which, weren't people talking about the 2e ring a second ago? :smallconfused:

[Sr.medusa]

The text says:

"allows a living wearer to heal 1 point of damage per level every hour rather than every day"

Perhaps it grants you the natural healing of a day in an hour. Might be Tarquin have a natural healing boosted somway (feats, stuff, like the drow said). It seems the kind of nasty trick he likes.

[Olinser]

That implies Tarquin's got some crazy Damage Reduction going on, if a sword through his chest and a bunch of other attacks was somehow less than 18HP (since he's fully healed pretty rapidly).

I've always read the ring as 'after an hour of receiving the injury, you've healed [level] amount of HP', which is an insignificant expenditure of 90,000 GP. [level] amount of HP in battle once an hour is also kind of insignificant if you can get that much inflicted in one hit.

Besides which, weren't people talking about the 2e ring a second ago? :smallconfused:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html

It looks like he only took 1 hit from Belkar in the leg, one stab from Roy in the torso, and 1 arrow from Haley in the foot. (maybe 1 arrow in the shoulder - it's a little hard to tell, and he does have a small slash on his shoulder next comic).

Plus, he didn't fully heal Roy's wound - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html he still has some of that slash left in his chest.


If he has DR 5-10 from one of his items - yeah, it's pretty likely they didn't do more than 30 damage on him. If he healed 16 points of it, that leaves 14 points left - the wound in his chest.

Still sounds about right to me.

[Raineh Daze]

Note what's gone by this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html)

There's no way he's restricted to [level] per hour, unless his level is insane or he takes negligible damage from anything.

[Olinser]

Note what's gone by this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html)

There's no way he's restricted to [level] per hour, unless his level is insane or he takes negligible damage from anything.

Maybe he has an item that turns fire damage into healing.

Maybe the 'per hour' rule is set at an arbitrary hour after he puts the ring on - and Tarquin straddled both sides of it (i.e. he healed the first part at 59:54 seconds, then the next round he hit the hour mark and the amount reset).

Maybe Tarquin's ring has a per day rather than per hour limit. (or no limit).

Maybe Rich just forgot. He's not omnipotent, he has made mistakes before.

[hamishspence]

While called the Ring of Rapid Healing, this epic ring:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#rapidHealing

does use the Regenerate spell in its creation.

[Raineh Daze]

It honestly seems vastly more likely that he has a buffed ring than an arbitrary item, a highly convenient item, or lucky timing. It's simpler.

Huh, so there is a ring that grants Fast Healing. Good to know. :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

We don't know that he was using a ring at all in that panel. He could have had an amulet or armor which grants the user a use of heal or CCW or something X/day.

[Raineh Daze]

It's assumed because there's no activation glow to indicate use of an item, he's saying regeneration, and he mentioned having a ring of regeneration (and offered the spare to Elan) before anyone left for Girard's Gate.

[RunicLGB]

Note what's gone by this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html)

There's no way he's restricted to [level] per hour, unless his level is insane or he takes negligible damage from anything.

The wound was on his right side (Stage left). The flame Strike obscures things but in the next panels with him the direction hes facing would put the sword wound on the other side from our vantage point, hiding it. It needn't healed yet.

I totally dig the idea of him holding over an older edition Item, probably hidden via some evil shenanigans.

[Living Oxymoron]

Note what's gone by this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html)

There's no way he's restricted to [level] per hour, unless his level is insane or he takes negligible damage from anything.

I'm almost sure he is evading that Flame Strike. Even if he wore an item that protected him against fire damage, the divine damage would still be a problem.


While called the Ring of Rapid Healing, this epic ring:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#rapidHealing

does use the Regenerate spell in its creation.

If he has one (or more (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html)) Rings of Rapid Healing, the chance he is an epic character increases greatly.

[Raineh Daze]

Well, he's definitely healed by this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html), before Malack even lands, so there's no chance for it being due to someone's casting a heal spell. Orientation is not an issue. :smallamused:

[Snails]

The Giant is just fudging the rules because it was deemed preferable that Tarquin regenerate at the Speed of Plot.

It is perfectly possible Tarquin to have Fast Healing 3 by not very expensive means. A very defensive build fully buffed up might go 20 rounds against the order and suffer negligible damage after fast healing.

But all that would have slowed down the story, added exposition, and required lots and lots of panels of art. Far better to say "Roy! Look -- he's already started healing himself!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html) when we know he has an item, and put the calculator down.

[Raineh Daze]

The Giant is just fudging the rules because it was deemed preferable that Tarquin regenerate at the Speed of Plot.

But this explanation gives us nothing to look at or make guesses based on. 'He could have Fast Healing 3 from another source', when we know he has a ring of some sort, does not further the discussion. :smallannoyed:

[Snails]

But this explanation gives us nothing to look at or make guesses based on. 'He could have Fast Healing 3 from another source', when we know he has a ring of some sort, does not further the discussion. :smallannoyed:

True. My point is that it Tarquin is displaying prowess in line of a well prepared 16th level NPC -- the fudge is in the explanation, not the degree of competence.

It is very obviously not a Ring of Regeneration as described by 3.5 rules, so clearly the Giant is fudging things to some degree. We now must guess the nature of the fudge. There is no way around that.

I offered one reasonable explanation. YMMV.

[Raineh Daze]

There's an epic-level ring that grants Fast Healing 3. Now, if he could get the thing (and have a spare) without him and his party being epic? There's the question.


Rapid Healing
This ring grants a living wearer fast healing 3. It must be worn for 24 hours before its powers activate, and if removed it will not function again until it has been worn for 24 hours by the same individual.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Forge Ring, Forge Epic Ring, regenerate; Market Price: 300,000 gp.

[Snails]

There's an epic-level ring that grants Fast Healing 3. Now, if he could get the thing (and have a spare) without him and his party being epic? There's the question.

It is not very plausible he has two of that ring, even if he is epic. So it is non-evidence of epic level.

[Raineh Daze]

The combined wealth of 1/6 of three empires and no scruples about how he acquires items (he said that his second ring of regeneration was gained by killing someone when Elan questioned him) makes Tarquin's sphere of influence and budget rather... engorged.

[Snails]

By the book, that Ring of True Seeing tallies up to 205,000gp*, which puts it over the 200k limit for non-epic items. So really it is a 2,050,000 gp item. That costs a whopping 30,500 xp to create.

If we believe the Giant really cares about those rules, there is your proof.

IMHO, these are exactly the kinds of things the Giant (and many DMs) like to fudge.

* Ring of True Seeing
Continuous 5th level spell --> 5 * 9 * 2000 = 90,000gp
1 minute per level spell made continuous --> x2
Special component worth 250gp --> 25,000gp
Total: 205,000gp

[Snails]

If Malack's ECL is over 20, then he is Epic in the technical sense.

BTW, that is ambiguous. If he is an NPC, the vampire template is CR +2. Level Adjustment is for PCs and is estimated based on very different criteria.

[Raineh Daze]

He has a PC class, he's part of an evil adventuring party, and he mentioned that it was hard to find encounters of the appropriate level.

I don't think anyone would honestly expect Malack to count as an NPC (and NPC's would honestly have the same trouble levelling in their day to day lives, as CR is a measure of what level party you need to defeat them on their own).

[Snails]

I don't think anyone would honestly expect Malack to count as an NPC (and NPC's would honestly have the same trouble levelling in their day to day lives, as CR is a measure of what level party you need to defeat them on their own).

There is nothing unreasonable about rating Malack an NPC. As to how NPC gain experience, that is a mystery that we have very little hard data on -- it may or may not be similar to how PCs progress.

I would note that if Malack were a CR +1 race, CR +2 for vampire, and had 12 caster levels (as many readers suspect), that would put him right where we would expect him. Coincidence?

[Living Oxymoron]

By the book, that Ring of True Seeing tallies up to 205,000gp*, which puts it over the 200k limit for non-epic items. So really it is a 2,050,000 gp item. That costs a whopping 30,500 xp to create.

2,050,000 gp? I didn't understand this result. Could you explain?


BTW, that is ambiguous. If he is an NPC, the vampire template is CR +2. Level Adjustment is for PCs and is estimated based on very different criteria.

No. Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level do matter even to NPCs too. For example, If Malack has ECL 21+, he is eligible to take epic feats if he meets the prerequisites, even not having 21 HD.

[SadisticFishing]

21+ HD, not ECL, if I remember right. Even then, probably CR. Otherwise things get silly extremely quickly.

A colossal monstrous scorpion has 40 HD. That's a lot of epic feats...

Also, CR is what's important for even important NPCs. A character's relevance/power in a campaign is based on the threat they bring to the table, not the number it says beside its class. A 20 warrior is a CR10 threat.

Level adjustments are virtually never worth as much as the same number of class levels, especially once you hit a certain point, and double especially as a caster. Sure, +8 LA gives a few benefits, but nothing compared to an extra 8 levels of Cleric or Wizard (which scale geometrically).

Malack could be an Aberration 40, or a Vermin 40, or even an Undead 40, and still not be an epic threat (if I'm remembering right, I'm only sure about Vermin). It's that 21st level of Cleric that turns him into a near-Xykon threat... Which it doesn't seem that he has.

The general rule is CR = Class levels + 0.5 racial HD + 0.5*LA. Some racial HD are worth more than others, though, for example Dragon and Outsider with their full BAB. Most LA's are also worth more like 1/4 of a CR each, as far as "importance in combat goes", but I haven't played 3.5 in so long that I don't remember which.

[Aquillion]

2,050,000 gp? I didn't understand this result. Could you explain?It's using the rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). Making a ring that continuously grants the effect of a 5th level spell like True Seeing costs as follows:

First, the base cost for a continuous spell effect is [spell level] times [caster level] times 2000. Since the minimum CL for a fifth level spell is 9 (and we have no reason to need more than that), that gives us:

Continuous 5th level spell --> 5 * 9 * 2000 = 90,000gp

...then, as the asterisk says, you multiply it by two if the spell's duration was 1 minute / level, like True Seeing. That gives us:

90,000 x 2 = 180,000 gp.

True Seeing also has a 250 gp component. For a continuous item, you treat it like it had 100 charges, which means you multiply that number by 100; so we add 25,000.

This gives us a total of 180,000 gp + 25,000 gp = 205,000 gp.

Note that the rules for custom magic items are seriously flawed; they're really just guidelines.

[Mike Havran]

It's using the rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). Making a ring that continuously grants the effect of a 5th level spell like True Seeing costs as follows:

First, the base cost for a continuous spell effect is [spell level] times [caster level] times 2000. Since the minimum CL for a fifth level spell is 9 (and we have no reason to need more than that), that gives us:

Continuous 5th level spell --> 5 * 9 * 2000 = 90,000gp

...then, as the asterisk says, you multiply it by two if the spell's duration was 1 minute / level, like True Seeing. That gives us:

90,000 x 2 = 180,000 gp.

True Seeing also has a 250 gp component. For a continuous item, you treat it like it had 100 charges, which means you multiply that number by 100; so we add 25,000.

This gives us a total of 180,000 gp + 25,000 gp = 205,000 gp.

Note that the rules for custom magic items are seriously flawed; they're really just guidelines.

I think it was clear how you got to the 205 000 gp. But it's not clear how did you go 205 000gp -> 2 050 000 gp:

So really it is a 2,050,000 gp item.

Was it just a typo?

[Raineh Daze]

However, I don't buy any logic that says Malack must be an NPC because he isn't a member of the OotS. The story revolves around them, not the campaign world. He's an adventurer, therefore a PC. :smallsigh:

[hamishspence]

21+ HD, not ECL, if I remember right. Even then, probably CR. Otherwise things get silly extremely quickly.

A colossal monstrous scorpion has 40 HD. That's a lot of epic feats...

It may seem silly, but that's the way the rules work.

Page 209 DMG:

"For example, a bugbear (3 Hit Dice and +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th level fighter is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus."

On vermin with feats- p317 MM:

"Most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats".

Now a Fiendish colossal monstrous scorpion, would indeed have a lot of epic feats, even if it's just Hit Dice above 20 that grant them- which would be standard for monsters with no LA.

[Kish]

He's an adventurer, therefore a PC. :smallsigh:
A theory that, regardless of the amount of sighing, fails to account for Redcloak, an adventurer and an NPC by his own word.

[Raineh Daze]

Then he's an NPC because he's said he's one.

I don't see a reason to assume a character must be an NPC because their CR would be in the right area for the Order when they've complained about the difficulty of finding appropriate (ie. Epic) encounters. It's pointless to say that a member of an adventuring party, albeit an evil one, must be an NPC because then they're an appropriate challenge rather than having an excessively high ECL. :smallannoyed:

[SaintRidley]

I think it was clear how you got to the 205 000 gp. But it's not clear how did you go 205 000gp -> 2 050 000 gp:


Was it just a typo?


If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10.

I think it would be 1,825,000 gp (only multiplying the part here that is made up by the True Seeing effect).


Not that Tarquin needs to be epic in order to afford this ring, what with ruling a good chunk of the continent. All he needs is access to someone who is epic, or for such a ring to have already existed.

As for not taking damage from the Flame Strike, he may have acquired Evasion in some way. Sure looks to me like he's evading, anyway. The real question, I guess, is did Haley just get really unlucky with her Sneak Attack dice with the dagger, or does Tarquin somehow have Improved Uncanny Dodge?

[Rakoa]

The real question, I guess, is did Haley just get really unlucky with her Sneak Attack dice with the dagger, or does Tarquin somehow have Improved Uncanny Dodge?

Perhaps his armour is fortified to some degree? If I was en evil dictator worried about possible assassination attempts, fortified armour would be the first thing I grabbed.

[Snails]

Perhaps his armour is fortified to some degree? If I was en evil dictator worried about possible assassination attempts, fortified armour would be the first thing I grabbed.

+5 Heavy Fortification armor is 100k -- within his apparent budget. It is a nice thing to virtually nullify Rogues. And a high level meleeist always runs the risk of a lucky critical hit inflicting 150 hit points in a single shot -- someone who prides himself on smart defensive play will want to do something about that.

[Snails]

I think it would be 1,825,000 gp (only multiplying the part here that is made up by the True Seeing effect).

Sounds reasonable.



As for not taking damage from the Flame Strike, he may have acquired Evasion in some way. Sure looks to me like he's evading, anyway. The real question, I guess, is did Haley just get really unlucky with her Sneak Attack dice with the dagger, or does Tarquin somehow have Improved Uncanny Dodge?

Malack is probably only caster level 12. If Tarquin has protection from fire, and makes his Refl save, that is ~10 sacred damage. He can shrug it off, and his ring will eventually heal him.

[Living Oxymoron]

21+ HD, not ECL, if I remember right. Even then, probably CR. Otherwise things get silly extremely quickly.

A colossal monstrous scorpion has 40 HD. That's a lot of epic feats...

Well, there is at least two sources about ECL and epic level. They look like to diverge at some point, but they agree in one thing: ECL 21+ is epic and that makes you eligible to take epic feats even if you don't have the minimum of 21 HD or to calculate your BAB and BSB using the epic attack and save bonus table.

First, Epic Level Handbook. It says:

In any other place in this book where “character level” is
indicated, you can use effective character level instead. For
example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also a
13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and eligible to
select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites.

Now, the Dungeon Master Guide 3.5:

The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character
levels, using the creature’s effective character level (ECL)
instead of just its class levels. For example, a bugbear (3 Hit Dice
and +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rdlevel
blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and
save bonus.


Malack is probably only caster level 12. If Tarquin has protection from fire, and makes his Refl save, that is ~10 sacred damage. He can shrug it off, and his ring will eventually heal him.

I doubt very much of this.

This is Roy shruging it off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html). Note by his words that he is feeling the pain, but he is enduring it.

This is Haley evading the Vitriolic Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html). As if nothing was happening.

And Tarquin in the middle of Malack's Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html). Not a single word, nor a gesture of pain or to avoid the blaze. Which one above is more similar to this one?

[Rakoa]

+5 Heavy Fortification armor is 100k -- within his apparent budget. It is a nice thing to virtually nullify Rogues. And a high level meleeist always runs the risk of a lucky critical hit inflicting 150 hit points in a single shot -- someone who prides himself on smart defensive play will want to do something about that.

I was thinking something along those lines, yeah. Sneak attack attempts, backstabs, and lucky crits (or even not so lucky crits if someone comes at him with some crazy Keen weapon). Somebody who wants to live a long time as evil dictator while also fighting defensively? Heavy Fortification seems to be the way to go.

[rodneyAnonymous]

And Tarquin in the middle of Malack's Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html). Not a single word, nor a gesture of pain or to avoid the blaze. Which one above is more similar to this one?

None of the above. Pretty sure he didn't take damage from the Flame Strike because he has protection from fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm), not because he evaded. After the Flame Strike doesn't hurt Tarquin, Belkar says "Damn it, how come WE never have magical protection from fire?" I don't think Malack would have cast a spell he knew will hit his teammate if there was a chance it would hurt him.

[Raineh Daze]

Half the damage from Flame Strike bypasses Fire Resistance (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Flame_Strike). He avoided the damage somehow.

[Auldrin]

Half the damage from Flame Strike bypasses Fire Resistance (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Flame_Strike). He avoided the damage somehow.

The leftover damage is pretty minor, but also, I expect it's just a case of G not having read the rules. It happens occasionally.

I don't buy the evasion simply because as far as I recall, people usually physically show their evasion (Haley and the vitriol) outside of jokes (When did I learn evasion?)

[Raineh Daze]

6d6 damage would at least leave a scratch. :smallconfused:

[rodneyAnonymous]

6d6 damage would at least leave a scratch. :smallconfused:

Reflex save for half damage, so ~3d6, or about a quarter of the total spell damage if he saves. Not very much for a high level fighter. That does contradict my suggestion that Malack wouldn't cast a spell that has a chance of damaging an ally, though.

[Auldrin]

6d6 damage would at least leave a scratch. :smallconfused:

10+15d10+(conmod)*15 is quite a lot of health, basically the only idea that comes to mind. It could go either way, I don't think there's entirely enough evidence.

Edit: Also the reflex save thing, forgot about that. Even with evasion he needs to make the reflex save, which guarantees he's taking... What, 10.5 damage average?

[137beth]

If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10.
Note: this does not apply if the only thing making it epic is "costing more than 200000." So actually, the continuous ring of true seeing would only cost 205,000, not 2,050,000.

[Living Oxymoron]

Note: this does not apply if the only thing making it epic is "costing more than 200000." So actually, the continuous ring of true seeing would only cost 205,000, not 2,050,000.

You're right. I forgot to mention it in my last comment.


If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10.

This rule would apply to, for example, +6 weapons or armors (whose limit is beyond +5, the "normal" for nonepic magic items), but not to items like this Ring of True Seeing.

[Blue1005]

Sure they can, they just can't ADVANCE in the Bard class.

SRD:
Ex-Bards
A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities.

Point being, why cant a lawful character decide to be a bard?

What DnD logic is there that says a singer cant be lawful? I honestly dont know why that is.

[hamishspence]

Possibly due to Creativity being listed among the Chaotic traits.

[Kish]

What DnD logic is there that says a singer cant be lawful? I honestly dont know why that is.
Certainly a singer can be Lawful. Perform is even on the monk class skill list. A troubador or a minstrel is likely to be an Expert, who can be of any alignment.

[Olinser]

Point being, why cant a lawful character decide to be a bard?

What DnD logic is there that says a singer cant be lawful? I honestly dont know why that is.

Why does a Paladin have to be lawful good (or Blackguards Evil)? There are plenty of Neutral deities out there - I guess they just get left out.

Some alignment restrictions are just arbitrary - despite what the class really represents.

[Raineh Daze]

'Why does a Blackguard have to be evil' rather misses the point of a Blackguard. Same for questioning the 'good' component of a paladin (their entire schtick is holy warriors of good, see).

Now, why a Paladin has to be lawful? That's a better question.

[Tragak]

Why does a Paladin have to be lawful good (or Blackguards Evil)? There are plenty of Neutral deities out there - I guess they just get left out.

Some alignment restrictions are just arbitrary - despite what the class really represents. Yes, but those gods already have champions: Clerics.

AnnandaleGaming wrote what I think is a pretty good explanation for why Paladins are supposed to be LG. Spoilered for length:
Let me preface this with a few things; paladins are one of my favorite character classes to play in D&D. The allure of the class is, to me, to create a distinctive personality and background within a very rigidly defined archetype. That, and being able to whup ass on evil, in particular, better than anyone else. The paladin is a "fighter without bonus feats" against things like elementals, animals, and the like. But when fighting evil...a creature or person deliberately out to harm others...the paladin kicks ass above and beyond all others.

And when I play D&D, I want to play a hero. Usually. Playing evil characters tends to bring out facets of me I'd rather not acknowledge. Of course, any class can be a hero (excepting bards; nobody believes a bard can be a hero), but the thing about the Paladin is, he is destined to be. It isn't a choice, and it may not even be what he wants, but it is what he is on a more fundamental level than any other class.

Now, I've noticed a trend in recent supplements and such to introduce "variant" paladins. I don't necessarily have a problem with variations of paladin abilities, but most of these variations seem to be on the order of "letting people play a paladin that isn't LG." There's the CG paladin, the LE paladin, the CE paladin.

And that's all nonsense. Rot. Swill. Garbage. Stupid. Fluff. A CRUTCH FOR WEAK PLAYERS WHO CAN'T HANDLE THE GAME.

Ahem. Sorry. Was channeling Weird Pete for a second there.

Point is, Paladins are Lawful Good for a reason. For several reasons, in fact.

Let's start by examining the origins and meanings of the word "paladin." Without too much linguistic nonsense, paladin appears to have originated around 1595, referring in French literary romance to the 12 knights in attendance upon Charlemagne. Other less specific definitons; a paragon of chivalry, a determined advocate or defender of a noble cause...most of the rest of the definitions proceed from there.

Now, how does this relate to Paladins being Lawful Good only? Patience. We'll get there.

One of the arguments I often here for the variant alignment Paladins is, "Well, other gods have champions, too." Sure they do. They're called CLERICS. Or, for that matter, rangers or wizards or druids. If you want to become a super-duper CG champion, you work toward the "Holy Liberator" PrC.

Furthermore, folks, Chaotic Goodness is not a cause. Chaotic Good is the alignment that says "don't start none, won't be none," or "stay away, leave me alone, let me go my way." Mal Reynolds of Firefly is the perfect example of CG. He follows his own needs and conscience as the situation dictates, but isn't really out to change the world (not usually). He's a good man, sometimes even a very good one, but he's not a Paladin, and he'd laugh if you suggested he was. Chaotic Good is, by and large, a reactive sort of alignment, and Paladins are by their nature an active class. Their mandate is to actively hunt down evil and eradicate it. Chaotic Good characters aren't generally out to do that. They're individualists. Not crusaders.

By extension, CG gods aren't the kind who'd want their followers out championing causes, are they? I mean, combating evil where you find it, sure...but are they likely to grant significant power, like the paladin wields? I don't know, but I don't think so. Again, it's a matter of active vs. reactive. Chaotic Good beings react to threats or perceived injustices or crowding of individual freedoms; are those the kinds of things a Paladin does? Well, yes, but not as a cause. I just don't see it as possible to define "Chaotic Goodness" or CG deities as "a cause" or

As for Lawful Evil paladins? Still not buying it. Lawful Evil is not so much a cause as it is an alignment geared towards acquiring personal wealth and power. But again, anybody can do that. You don't need special abilities to make you a dominating conqueror, not really. And there's the Blackguard PrC to cover the situation of the "anointed of a dark god." And I have no problem with the Blackguard PrC filling that role, and it makes sense to me, for several reasons. For starters, dark gods aren't, I don't think, likely to grant those kinds of powers to someone who hasn't gone out and proven themselves devoted to the cause; I don't see 1st level characters in the "blackguard" role. Secondly, there are specific rules about the PrC that pertain to Fallen Paladins who take up the role, and that makes all kinds of sense to me. Nothing a dark god likes better than stealing the champion of his enemy.

I don't see a CE god granting those sorts of powers lightly, either, which is why I also don't buy the CE paladin variant. Look, imagine a dark god, d&d style. They are an eternal and inexorable and ineffable expression of all that is evil in the nature of sentient beings. They aren't going to share their power lightly, not without tremendous consequences to the sharee.

Contrast this to your typical LG god. They're exactly the opposite, and, I feel, much more likely to grant powers to someone based on their potential. Someone has to go and combat the evil out there, right? And while the representatives of LG gods can spend the time and energy to train and shepherd and educate those prospective, the deity in question needs to equip them with the ability to do what they are Called to do. I just think it's hard to make an argument that someone is Called to do evil in the way a Paladin is Called to do good. Most evil arises out of self-interest, of a desire for more personal wealth/power/magic, whatever, and rarely does it rise (or sink) to the level of proselytizing and actively seeking to spread the word and 'erdicate good.' Sure, there might be some few truly, truly devoted who act in that manner, but...are they going to go seek out and train their replacements, people they'd have to share power with?

A keen example here is the Sith (chorus of boos from all of you prequel haters; just trust me). There are 2 at a time, because otherwise, they get overwhelmed with backstabbing, plotting, assassinations and the like, and nothing gets done. The way a new Sith advances is by killing one up top. Don't share power. Don't make it easy for your replacements. Is this the kind of environment that fosters lots of individuals with potential to become great champions of evil, the way most Campaign Settings seem to picture Paladinhood?

No. But it is a way to foster the role of something like the Blackguard, a champion of evil who has proved himself by...being a champion of evil. I have no problems with the concept of an "anti-paladin" being applied to a PrC. But not a base class.

There's a game balance issue here, too. Paladins (along with Monks) get the most class-centric abilities, things no one else can effectively do. Most of these, for the Paladin, come at relatively early levels. By level 6, a paladin has gotten all of the abilities he's going to get; Aura of Good, Smite Evil 2/day, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Turn Undead, Special Mount, and Remove Disease 1/day. If you don't want the remove disease too badly, you can just go to 5. If the paladin doesn't have severe alignment restrictions, then min-maxxers might just take 5 levels and never go back. Some of them will do that anyway. But if they're a Chaotic Good Paladin, they can go and take levels in, say, Bard or Barbarian. The former, being so Charisma based, stacks especially well in a numbers way, but doesn't make any damn sense in a roleplay manner.

Finally, there's the challenge of playing a Paladin. Making a Paladin CG removes the very challenge that makes playing a unique Paladin so compelling. Look, I've played many a CG character in my life, but let's be honest; it's the easiest good alignment to play well, and might be the easiest in the game to effectively manage. You don't have carte blanche, but it's close.

The thing is, most people picture the Paladin as "Lawful Stupid," inevitably losing their life in a foolish cause, or being a prig who has no sense of humor and lives on bread and water. The fun of playing a Paladin is challenging that assertion. Lawful Good doesn't offer nearly as much latitude as anything else does, but that doesn't mean you can't have personality or that you have to be a stiff-necked prig. For example, one Paladin I played for a long time spent a fair amount of free time at a brothel. Not as a customer, mind you, nor in a paid position, but he hung around because, fairly often, the women there needed protection, or a little 'cure disease,' or someone to help them out in a number of ways. Maybe what they were doing wasn't legal, but the goddess he followed stressed caring for the younger, the weaker, those without means to protect themselves, etc. He saw that he was doing that, didn't accept money for it, didn't sleep with any of the girls (though Paladins don't have to be celibate, far from it) and all in all, helped make it so that the lives the women in that brothel had were better than they otherwise would've been. Maybe he preached a little bit...if he saw an opening...but not too much.

Anyway, enough character reminiscence. The point; Paladins are Lawful Good for a reason. For several reasons. They shouldn't be anything else. TL, DR: To him (and I agree, despite disagreeing with Chaotic Good being characterized as "passive"), "what the class means" is the Knights of King Arthur or Charlemagne.

[Raineh Daze]

I can't agree with that person, simply because of their attitude towards Chaotic Good.

Good is Good. Your stance on the matter of laws vs personal freedoms does not affect that. 'Chaotic gods wouldn't empower their followers to fight evil!' suggests that said gods aren't, in fact, particularly good at all; they sound more Neutral if they don't care there's Evil around enough to stop it.

(They also seem to hold the belief that Law is better than Chaos, which is fundamentally misinterpreting the alignment system; that axis has no 'better' or 'worse' side)

[Angel Bob]

I will also agree that the writer's interpretation of Chaotic Good is incorrect... but I agree entirely with their interpretation of an ideal paladin.

[Olinser]

I can't agree with that person, simply because of their attitude towards Chaotic Good.

Good is Good. Your stance on the matter of laws vs personal freedoms does not affect that. 'Chaotic gods wouldn't empower their followers to fight evil!' suggests that said gods aren't, in fact, particularly good at all; they sound more Neutral if they don't care there's Evil around enough to stop it.

(They also seem to hold the belief that Law is better than Chaos, which is fundamentally misinterpreting the alignment system; that axis has no 'better' or 'worse' side)

Yeah, I have to agree with you. The author of that post seems to have Chaotic Good confused with True Neutral. And doesn't really offer any real reason that Paladins HAVE to be LG - other than he doesn't want them to be able to take levels in Barbarian or Bard.

The author seems to think that LG is the only alignment that actually goes out battling Evil.

Chaotic Good are MORE likely to be out hunting down evil, because they don't have to worry about laws and rules preventing them from doing Good. If a CG knows of something going on that is morally wrong but legally right, he is actually just about the ONLY alignment that will do something about it.

[Raineh Daze]

The main reason paladins are Lawful Good is that a Chaotic knight is a contradiction waiting to happen. It's because the fluff and class abilities build them as a heavily armoured feudal warrior, though--not because a divinely empowered holy warrior is Lawful.

[Snails]

In the feudal tradition, the common use of the word "honour" is to describe land awarded to a family for service (typically valiant service in war). What is understood is a rich honor supports many well-armed violent men that are bound by oaths for obedient service in war.

Very roughly, "I am very honorable" = "Do not @%#$! with me; my word has consequences."

The feudal system is all held together by interwoven oaths with positive duties towards both superiors and inferiors, that often extend across generations. In this context, to be a "chaotic knight" is to be an "outlaw" -- one who lives outside the legal system. That is a self-contradiction.

In a heroic fantasy setting an outlaw could easily be Good, e.g. Robin Hood, but he is not a knight. (In some traditions, Robin Hood was once a knight. But while he is skulking about in the forests, he is not. By definition, he does not have "honor", and his word and oath have no meaning within the general legal system that holds society together.)

[Stormlock]

I think they guy was some sketchy views of alignment (no way Reynolds is good for starters, nice maybe, but not Good) but he had the basic idea right.

A Paladin is, essentially, a holy warrior granted authority by his church, compelled to act in their service for moral reasons.

A chaotic church is not going to have that kind of hierarchal authority to begin with. One of the tenets of the alignment is that individuals govern themselves, they do not all follow a greater authority. Individuals might worship a diety, but their church has no right to impose upon others.

An evil church might have that kind of authority, but it's tenets are selfish, hedonistic ones. Someone serving such a church would not do so for moral reasons, but to attain more power or be spared from their ire. What would a lawful evil paladin crusade for? Getting himself some nice loot and hot chicks? Why would any church empower such an individual?

A blackguard works because he is already powerful and his actions have served the purpose of a dark god. He's earned their favour. But some powerless guy who just wants to be a bigshot? The dark gods can't possibly empower everyone like that, it'd be their entire group of followers. Only the strongest should have any authority over any others.

Whereas in a good church, what determines who should have authority is their righteousness, not their strength. That, and the concept of them being an extension of the law, is why a paladin only makes sense as a LG class at level 1.

[KillItWithFire]

I think they guy was some sketchy views of alignment (no way Reynolds is good for starters, nice maybe, but not Good) but he had the basic idea right.
Eh, I think you'd be hard pressed to call him anything else. I'm thinking particularly of the episode "Heart of Gold" in which Reynolds decides to help the downtrodden due to their situation alone and at great personal risk. It's an attitude he regularly displays. He'd like to have you think he's a callous thief but his nature gets the better of him when he rushes to oppose oppression despite cost to himself. Remember Train Job, returning the medicine despite the fact that the action came at SERIOUS cost to himself and his crew. I think that's the defining part of good vs. neutral. A good person will perform good acts (helping the defenseless, stamping out evil) even if there is a personal cost while a neutral person would be stopped by it.



A Paladin is, essentially, a holy warrior granted authority by his church, compelled to act in their service for moral reasons.

A chaotic church is not going to have that kind of hierarchal authority to begin with. One of the tenets of the alignment is that individuals govern themselves, they do not all follow a greater authority. Individuals might worship a diety, but their church has no right to impose upon others.

An evil church might have that kind of authority, but it's tenets are selfish, hedonistic ones. Someone serving such a church would not do so for moral reasons, but to attain more power or be spared from their ire. What would a lawful evil paladin crusade for? Getting himself some nice loot and hot chicks? Why would any church empower such an individual?


Unless they aim to further the cause of evil. In the same way a LG Paladin can zealously destroy evil in all its forms, a LE evil Paladin could do the same to good. He could believe it is the right of the strong to oppress the weak as part of his moral view and good would oppose them on that. So in the name of "Evil" he hunts agents of good.


A blackguard works because he is already powerful and his actions have served the purpose of a dark god. He's earned their favour. But some powerless guy who just wants to be a bigshot? The dark gods can't possibly empower everyone like that, it'd be their entire group of followers. Only the strongest should have any authority over any others.
I don't think players who choose Paladin are born Paladins, they live their life until they are called and take their first adventurer level as a paladin. You can in fact, exist as a person without having player class levels. Why shouldn't a blackguard be able to do the same thing?



Chaotic Good are MORE likely to be out hunting down evil, because they don't have to worry about laws and rules preventing them from doing Good. If a CG knows of something going on that is morally wrong but legally right, he is actually just about the ONLY alignment that will do something about it.

Lawful != respects human made laws as the only authority

Law and Chaos are defined more by your devotion to a cause or code and need not have anything to do with man-made laws. If a Paladin adventures into an evil country and the law there states that murder is the proper and only way to deal with someone who bumped into you, will he feel obliged to cut down a man who ran into him by accident? No because he has no respect for that law. A chaotic character however would be more likely to change his personal viewpoint on a moment to moment basis. That's not to say that they are weak-willed compared to their lawful cousins, just that they don't try to define what good is so they play it by ear much more often while a lawful character would rather justify his actions with something more than a gut feeling. That's my take anyway.

[Stormlock]

Eh, I think you'd be hard pressed to call him anything else. I'm thinking particularly of the episode "Heart of Gold" in which Reynolds decides to help the downtrodden due to their situation alone and at great personal risk. It's an attitude he regularly displays. He'd like to have you think he's a callous thief but his nature gets the better of him when he rushes to oppose oppression despite cost to himself. Remember Train Job, returning the medicine despite the fact that the action came at SERIOUS cost to himself and his crew. I think that's the defining part of good vs. neutral. A good person will perform good acts (helping the defenseless, stamping out evil) even if there is a personal cost while a neutral person would be stopped by it.

Yeah but at the same time, he regularly steals from perfectly innocent people and takes plenty of shady jobs he doesn't need to so he doesn't have to live under any sort of authority. And remember the first episode, where he leaves the guy behind to die so he didn't have to drop any cargo?

He's pretty solidly CN in my book. Neither selfish nor selfless. He has lines he won't cross but still puts himself first.




Unless they aim to further the cause of evil. In the same way a LG Paladin can zealously destroy evil in all its forms, a LE evil Paladin could do the same to good. He could believe it is the right of the strong to oppress the weak as part of his moral view and good would oppose them on that. So in the name of "Evil" he hunts agents of good.

This is just a silly concept. He's doing evil deeds... for the benefit of OTHER evil people, at his own expense? This makes no sense.

He could hold those beliefs, but then he'd simply oppress the weak for his own benefit. He wouldn't go around beating up paladins so that his inferior colleagues (who would just as soon slit his throat and take everything he owns) can beat up peasants without being opposed.



I don't think players who choose Paladin are born Paladins, they live their life until they are called and take their first adventurer level as a paladin. You can in fact, exist as a person without having player class levels. Why shouldn't a blackguard be able to do the same thing?

Because a first level adventurer has no power. A guy who has been an evil **** for 80 years by abusing his apprentices in his smithy isn't more worthy to become a Blackguard because he's been more of a ****. It's the guy that's strong enough to raze a church and slaughter everyone that deserves that position.

OTOH, the guy who has been a saint for 80 years working at an orphanage is worthy of the honor of becoming a paladin, because he's proven his dedication.

Good guys care about dedication and chivalry in their champions. Bad guys care about strength in theirs, and expect them to follow the path of evil not out of trust, but temptation.

To use a real world example, if you're choosing someone to run a charity under you, you choose the guy who works most selflessly, because he's least likely to betray it, which is more important than his efficiency. If you're choosing someone to run a gang under you, you choose the guy who'll get the most useful **** done, not the one who'll kick the most puppies along the way.

Good's goal is to aid the innocent. Evil's goal isn't to hurt the innocent, it's to aid oneself- the innocent are irrelevant.





Lawful != respects human made laws as the only authority

Law and Chaos are defined more by your devotion to a cause or code and need not have anything to do with man-made laws. If a Paladin adventures into an evil country and the law there states that murder is the proper and only way to deal with someone who bumped into you, will he feel obliged to cut down a man who ran into him by accident? No because he has no respect for that law. A chaotic character however would be more likely to change his personal viewpoint on a moment to moment basis. That's not to say that they are weak-willed compared to their lawful cousins, just that they don't try to define what good is so they play it by ear much more often while a lawful character would rather justify his actions with something more than a gut feeling. That's my take anyway.

I'm not sure what your point is here? Are you saying you could have a LE paladin but not a CG or CE one?