Can Elan make a diplomacy check of 40 or 50?

[Alex Warlorn]

Do you think with the right buffs and situational bonuses that Elan can make a diplomacy check of 40 or 50? I ask this because I read once in Dungeon, that you could reach the last vestiges of humanity(or dwarvanity in this case) within a vampire and reason with them IF you could make a diplomacy check that high.

[Squirrel_Token]

Interesting idea. However, at the moment it doesn't particularly matter since Malack still has Durkula under his thrall. You can reason all you like, if the person you're trying to reason with has no free will it won't matter :smallfrown:

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, let's see...probably not yet, but possible. Elan is level 14 or 15 at this juncture, most likely. We'll be generous and say 15. I'm going to assume Diplomacy is a Dashing Swordsman class skill, and that Elan keeps it maxed, so 18 ranks there, and +6 from Charisma. +24 modifier, if he has nothing else boosting his roll. I'd argue a +2 circumstance for being a long-time travelling companion, maybe another +2 because they've never been at odds over anything. It would at least make sense that he'd get bonuses over a random stranger trying. So 40's possible, but chancy, 45 would be a long shot, and 50's still out of his reach, even if Rich were allowing the +4 circumstance.

But it's not an unreasonable idea once he has free will back.

[theinsulabot]

you think elan has max diplomacy?


...I cant help but feel if elan had max diplomacy he wouldnt keep critically failing when he tries a rousing speech

[FlawedParadigm]

you think elan has max diplomacy?


...I cant help but feel if elan had max diplomacy he wouldnt keep critically failing when he tries a rousing speech

No, but I was pointing out that even under moderately optimal conditions, his chances are still fairly weak. I say "moderately optimal" since it's quite possible to have enough modifiers to make a 40 or 50 roll at half Elan's level with enough powergaming and single-mindedness. Elan is not that character though.

[Ellye]

you think elan has max diplomacy?


...I cant help but feel if elan had max diplomacy he wouldnt keep critically failing when he tries a rousing speechI don't know what you're talking about.

A good example of Elan having decent Diplomacy skill: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html

[Kish]

Everything Elan says there is Bluff, not Diplomacy.

Not that I think a failure to give inspiring speeches shows low Diplomacy.

[Caivs]

He served as the representative for the Azurites during the months at sea, and Roy intended to rely on his diplomacy to speak with Girard, so it's safe to say he's the most diplomatic person around. Public oration is not the same as mediation, though I admit it is hard to imagine him conducting serious negotiations.

[King of Nowhere]

You said one may be able to "reason" with a vampire. Just because you reasomn with someone, it don't mean he's going to let you have your way. malack is not just any undead abomination, he is an individual who reasoned out his condition and is satisfied with it. Just reasoning with him isn't going to change anything.
As for durkon, how he will be once released from thralldom epends on rich. How much of the old durkon will remain? We'll have to see.

[Alex Warlorn]

Interesting idea. However, at the moment it doesn't particularly matter since Malack still has Durkula under his thrall. You can reason all you like, if the person you're trying to reason with has no free will it won't matter :smallfrown:

Actually the encounter from the Dungeon magazine was with a vampire who the party had made friends with when he was alive, and was currently under the thrall of the vampire who killed him. If you succeeded, he temporarily breaks free of his master's mind control remembering his friendship with you.

[Alex Warlorn]

you think elan has max diplomacy?


...I cant help but feel if elan had max diplomacy he wouldnt keep critically failing when he tries a rousing speech

In the origins paperback, Elan is able to take two goblins in a non-combat situation who were decidedly hostile, and made a straight up Diplomacy check and turned them Helpful plus!

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, by RAW, if you and ramped your Diplomacy high enough, you could succeed your rolls by so much that so long as you can speak and be understood, you're effectively invincible in regards to sentient beings. Technically, if you could get a hold of any deities, it's possible to get your Diplomacy so high you could ask the Gods to make you one and win the check by a hundred or so. Of course, you cease being a playable character at that point but hey, what a way to retire, yeah?

However, I don't think Rich runs with RAW in OotS. :smalltongue:

[SadisticFishing]

However, I don't think Rich runs with RAW in OotS. :smalltongue:

Look at Glibness. The Great Master Burlew actually follows the rules in almost all cases. It's part of what makes the story so good - it's internally consistent where it needs to be.

The question isn't "what would happen if someone had +120 diplomacy?" it's "would the Giant allow any character's diplomacy to get so high?" to which the answer is an emphatic no. Probably.

[bguy]

Well, let's see...probably not yet, but possible. Elan is level 14 or 15 at this juncture, most likely. We'll be generous and say 15. I'm going to assume Diplomacy is a Dashing Swordsman class skill, and that Elan keeps it maxed, so 18 ranks there, and +6 from Charisma. +24 modifier, if he has nothing else boosting his roll. I'd argue a +2 circumstance for being a long-time travelling companion, maybe another +2 because they've never been at odds over anything. It would at least make sense that he'd get bonuses over a random stranger trying. So 40's possible, but chancy, 45 would be a long shot, and 50's still out of his reach, even if Rich were allowing the +4 circumstance.

But it's not an unreasonable idea once he has free will back.

Don't diplomacy checks take at least a minute to do (or otherwise you get hit with a -10 modifier.) What are the odds that Durkon would let Elan talk to him for an entire minute without attacking?

[FlawedParadigm]

Look at Glibness. The Great Master Burlew actually follows the rules in almost all cases. It's part of what makes the story so good - it's internally consistent where it needs to be.

The question isn't "what would happen if someone had +120 diplomacy?" it's "would the Giant allow any character's diplomacy to get so high?" to which the answer is an emphatic no. Probably.

He ran with Bluff and did it for comedic effect (and I'm fairly certain if you asked him, he'd say he did it to point out the ridiculous extremes of that, rather than advocate it) but I'm also pretty sure Rich isn't about to let anyone Diplomacy themselves into being Pun-Pun.

[Techwarrior]

you think elan has max diplomacy?


...I cant help but feel if elan had max diplomacy he wouldnt keep critically failing when he tries a rousing speech

I don't see that. Rousing speeches are Perform (Oratory).

[JackRackham]

Everything Elan says there is Bluff, not Diplomacy.

Not that I think a failure to give inspiring speeches shows low Diplomacy.

Besides which the DC would have been pathetically low. I mean, Barbarians don't get Sense Motive as a class skill and Thog's Wisdom was probably pretty low.


Don't diplomacy checks take at least a minute to do (or otherwise you get hit with a -10 modifier.) What are the odds that Durkon would let Elan talk to him for an entire minute without attacking?

Also a good point.

[Gnome Alone]

I imagine that The Giant would use his own elegant diplomacy fix for the comic... were the comic to need or use things like diplomacy rolls down to actual DCs 'n such.

[Copperdragon]

I'm fairly certain Elan does have some Diplomacy. If you ignore some bumps along the way, his negotiation with the Orcs on the Island went as well as it could (he turned hostile orcs into friends and secured them as peaceful allies).
In other cases he has also shown some ability to be diplomatic, but let's not forget he has made many situations horribly worse.

He has Diplomacy but it very probably it is far from maxed.

If you're reading the Gaming-Article on this site (to the left) you might also grow the suspicion "Diplomacy" in OotS might not work as outlined in RAW but be more considered as a "Persuade"-skill.

Apart from all this: Elan might be able to get a skill-boosting potion (like the one he gave Haley for her Bluff) that gives him a +20 on Diplomacy. With such a mechanic, he'd probably can reach +30 or more for his roll, which means a DC of 40 or 50 is within his reach. If plot/drama demands it then, yes, he can make all the checks you could come up with.

[Alex Warlorn]

I'm fairly certain Elan does have some Diplomacy. If you ignore some bumps along the way, his negotiation with the Orcs on the Island went as well as it could (he turned hostile orcs into friends and secured them as peaceful allies).
In other cases he has also shown some ability to be diplomatic, but let's not forget he has made many situations horribly worse.

He has Diplomacy but it very probably it is far from maxed.

If you're reading the Gaming-Article on this site (to the left) you might also grow the suspicion "Diplomacy" in OotS might not work as outlined in RAW but be more considered as a "Persuade"-skill.

Apart from all this: Elan might be able to get a skill-boosting potion (like the one he gave Haley for her Bluff) that gives him a +20 on Diplomacy. With such a mechanic, he'd probably can reach +30 or more for his roll, which means a DC of 40 or 50 is within his reach. If plot/drama demands it then, yes, he can make all the checks you could come up with.

"Okay Durkon, can you be a nice guy and cast resurrect on yourself now?"

[Rogar Demonblud]

Elan also has a Charisma boosting magic item Haley bought for him back in Sandsedge (a +6 belt, IIRC).

[Alex Warlorn]

Elan also has a Charisma boosting magic item Haley bought for him back in Sandsedge (a +6 belt, IIRC).



I must have missed that comic.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I must have missed that comic.

He buys it himself. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) "Belt of Charisma" isn't a standard D&D magic item, so not sure about the bonus, but at that price +2 would make more sense than +6 (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cloak_of_Charisma).


"Okay Durkon, can you be a nice guy and cast resurrect on yourself now?"

Also, I know that's a joke, but it wouldn't work, the vampire has to be slain before being resurrected.

[ZerglingOne]

Well, for a Human Bard, 20 is easily achievable at level 2 with no items using just core PHB RAW, but I doubt Elan has the setup for it.

He's unlikely to have taken Negotiator and Skill focus Diplomacy.

Sense Motive doesn't seem like Elan's cup of tea, neither does Knowledge Nobility and Royalty, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html), Elan makes it pretty clear that he doesn't have much, if any in Bluff.

So if he's between 13-15th level with a Charisma buff or some other Diplomacy boosting item/ability he could feasibly make such a roll if he was set up correctly for it.

[SowZ]

To whoever quoted the prison scene, Elan tried diplomacy to break out of prison. This implies two things: 1. He had enough diplomacy to think it was worth a shot. 2. It wasn't good enough to work.

I would guess Elan's diplomacy is decent to good, but not superb. Maxed out? I doubt it. Elan has a good number of skill points from Bard, but many of those he missed out on in 3e and his Int penalty is a real bummer there.

[MaximKat]

Some relevant reading (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html)

[ZarDaranth]

I think the biggest problem with Elan isn't his diplomacy, nor his charisma. It's his intelligence.

When he gave the 'rousing speech' to the colosseum, or when he realized Tarquin was 'Evil with a capital E', it seemed like his brain needed to roll a natural 20 to keep on topic long enough for the synapses to fire.

Granted, that's coming from my experience in game. Had a friend play a chaotic neutral bard that was min/maxxed on charisma, but had to make a d20 roll to see how much of his awesome skills/bonuses actually activated per attempt, with negative bonuses for rolls lower than 10. Tried to give a rousing speech at a gala to distract a huge crowd, rolled a 1 on the dice, fell down the stairs and nearly had his head taken off by a falling suit of armor's axe. Twisted and creative DM's make things amazing in game (which is partly why I enjoy the twists and turns here).

[SadisticFishing]

but had to make a d20 roll to see how much of his awesome skills/bonuses actually activated per attempt, with negative bonuses for rolls lower than 10.

This is called "rolling a skill check"... o.O

[ZarDaranth]

No, he had to roll a d20 before the skill check to determine what skill levels and feats were active for the skill check. We ended up calling it the "train of thought" check.

Ergo why I considered it somewhat Elan-ish.

[F.Harr]

Do you think with the right buffs and situational bonuses that Elan can make a diplomacy check of 40 or 50? I ask this because I read once in Dungeon, that you could reach the last vestiges of humanity(or dwarvanity in this case) within a vampire and reason with them IF you could make a diplomacy check that high.

We can hope. There's also the plan he and Durkon cooked up back in town.


Don't diplomacy checks take at least a minute to do (or otherwise you get hit with a -10 modifier.) What are the odds that Durkon would let Elan talk to him for an entire minute without attacking?

That's thre great thing about Elan, he's always willing to babble, or even just say "blah".


[I]Had a friend play a chaotic neutral bard that was min/maxxed on charisma, but had to make a d20 roll to see how much of his awesome skills/bonuses actually activated per attempt, with negative bonuses for rolls lower than 10. Tried to give a rousing speech at a gala to distract a huge crowd, rolled a 1 on the dice, fell down the stairs and nearly had his head taken off by a falling suit of armor's axe.

Wow! THAT must have been an interesting game.


No, he had to roll a d20 before the skill check to determine what skill levels and feats were active for the skill check. We ended up calling it the "train of thought" check.

Ergo why I considered it somewhat Elan-ish.

Fair enough.

[SadisticFishing]

No, he had to roll a d20 before the skill check to determine what skill levels and feats were active for the skill check. We ended up calling it the "train of thought" check.

Ergo why I considered it somewhat Elan-ish.

That's called "rolling two skill checks". That's the entire purpose of the skill check, literally. "You roll a die to see how well you do on something."

[ZarDaranth]

Well, I normally think of "skill check" relating to items just on the basic character sheet. Skills, feats, any modifiers, and the d20 roll for a "Spot", "Listen", "Initiative", etc. Forgive my ignorance if it means something more than that to the general D&D population.

(He had a separate sheet listing what the "train of thought" roll meant for the skill check. And it wasn't two separate rolls. It was binary; if he wanted to make the skill check, he had to roll train of thought at the same time, so he couldn't try to back out once the train of thought jumped the tracks.)

[Procyonpi]

maybe another +2 because they've never been at odds over anything.

Um, I brig you exhibit A:

:durkon::PUPPETS cANNAE EAT PIE!!!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html)

[AngryHobbit]

I don't know what you're talking about.

A good example of Elan having decent Diplomacy skill: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html

How hard would it be to Bluff Thog?

[FlawedParadigm]

Um, I brig you exhibit A:

:durkon::PUPPETS cANNAE EAT PIE!!!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html)

That's...yeah. Really minor, considering he's almost come to blows with V and Belkar in the past, and has disagreements with Haley's chosen profession. Aside from that one mostly comedic spat, Durkon and Elan have gotten along about as well as Roy and Durkon...and they didn't get along at first either (OtOotPCs.)

[Procyonpi]

That's...yeah. Really minor, considering he's almost come to blows with V and Belkar in the past, and has disagreements with Haley's chosen profession. Aside from that one mostly comedic spat, Durkon and Elan have gotten along about as well as Roy and Durkon...and they didn't get along at first either (OtOotPCs.)

1. It was mostly a joke
but
2. Religion is probably a bigger thing to a relatively pious cleric like Durkon than to most people.

[Imgran]

Don't diplomacy checks take at least a minute to do (or otherwise you get hit with a -10 modifier.) What are the odds that Durkon would let Elan talk to him for an entire minute without attacking?

Easy enough: Durkula would be attacking someone else while Elan was talking.

[Imgran]

1. It was mostly a joke
but
2. Religion is probably a bigger thing to a relatively pious cleric like Durkon than to most people.

But

3: There's a difference between a moment of minor annoyance, and actual enmity or antipathy. People we love irritate us all the time.

[Snails]

I would point out that there are potential synergy bonuses and feats.

+18 for ranks
+6 for Cha
+2 for 5 ranks of Bluff
+2 for 5 ranks of Sense Motive
+3 for Skill Focus feat

That is +31 without thinking hard.

No, I do not think Elan is bult that way, but it is possible.

[Diadem]

Can you take 20 on diplomacy checks? You can't, obviously, during combat. But I can imagine a situation where the OotS captures Durkula, thus giving Elan many hours of undisturbed time to talk with him. Would he be allowed to take 20 under such a scenario?


Also: Could you cast resurrection on yourself via a contingency that triggers on your death?

[rodneyAnonymous]

If it were my game, I'd say no, and I think most GMs would agree. Taking 20 is for tasks where previous attempts don't affect future attempts, whereas an early Diplomacy failure would at least give penalties to future attempts, if not make them impossible.

RAW says you can take 20 when (among other things) "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure". Time constraints and combat aren't the only considerations: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Using_Skills#Checks_without_Rolls.

[Snails]

But he might be able to Take 10, if not rushed or under threat.

[Kish]

Also: Could you cast resurrection on yourself via a contingency that triggers on your death?
If you happened to be a character with both Contingency and Resurrection as known and castable spells, like a level 11/13 wizard/cleric, and if your cleric caster level was three times Resurrection's level so that you were actually a level 11/21 wizard/cleric...

...then no, you still couldn't, because you can never put a spell higher level than sixth in a contingency.

On the other hand, if Vampire Durkon wants to be resurrected, he could make a Resurrection scroll, which Haley could probably use with Use Magic Device, and if Haley couldn't use it it would just be a matter of finding any cleric with a Wisdom that could be boosted to 17 with Vaarsuvius' Owl's Wisdom (so, basically, any cleric at all).

[FlawedParadigm]

There's also a specific Epic spell called, well, Contingent Resurrection. Any Epic level caster capable of researching it and passing a DC 52 Spellcraft check can manage it. Of course Xykon is the only Epic character we are certain is still...well, amongst the living, if not alive.

[Barsoom]

In comic 713 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0713.html), we can see Elan failing a hasted Hostile-to-Indifferent check, which would have been a DC 25 check with a -10 penalty, so effectively DC 35 is what he failed at.

DC 50 is obviously above his level of expertise.

[ZarDaranth]

Honestly, I think that with Enor, that's almost a bad example of diplomacy. I mean, Gannji had to make up a chart of "nom nom" to "ouchies" to determine when to not go into situations where they could get hurt. I honestly don't think Enor has enough intelligence to be influenced by charisma-based skills. Or, at best, I think there might be a wild empathy check somewhere in there, because that's crazy low intelligence.

A better example would be the island orcs during Don't Split (561, I believe). Unfriendly to Helpful, which is a DC 40. Or, Indifferent to Helpful, which is DC 30. Either way, he does have the ability to reach up to that point, but he also has his belt of charisma, and hopefully could be buffed or assisted in one way or another (unsure if Tarquin would help with magic items).

[Bogardan_Mage]

I don't know what you're talking about.

A good example of Elan having decent Diplomacy skill: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html
On that very page he says he tried Diplomacy on the guards and it didn't work.