[PF] Flasks of Oil - How would you rule this?

[Crustypeanut]

Hey guys, I have a small question as to how you would rule this would work in your campaign:

Say someone is on fire - how they got on fire doesn't matter, be it magic, recently hit by a flask of alchemist's fire or tangleburn bag, etc - If they're hit with an un-prepared, unmodified flask of oil - would you say that the oil catches on fire immediately, acting like it was prepared and successfully went off?

Personally, I would rule it so. Say PC #1 is on fire, having recently been hit by Goblin #1 with a Flask of Alchemist's Fire. Goblin #2, going immediately after Goblin #1, throws a Flask of Oil at the PC #1 and hits him. In such a case, PC #1 would take an additional 1d6 fire damage, and the duration of "Being on fire" would be extended another round - On his turn, he would take the 1d6 Fire damage from the first Alchemist's Fire (unless he puts it out), and on the round after that, another 1d6 from the oil, unless he puts it out. Basically, the Goblins throwing flasks of oil at this poor bastard would not only continue doing instant 1d6's as the oil shatters and immediately flares up on fire, but unless he puts it out, he's going to continue being on fire until he's nice and crispy.

Whatcha think? Too harsh, or does it make sense? I mean a savvy group of PCs would have Create Water handy, or at least try and put it out - so its not unbeatable by any means. Its just cruel and evil. :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Do note, that this goblins will also hit the PCs will flasks of oil when they're not on fire - then some goblin will come along and breath Keros Oil on 'em. ;)

[Alroy_Kamenwati]

I would just extend the amount of time the person is on fire, rather than adding in another d6 of damage.

On another note, I'm impressed by these Goblins! Using alchemist fire and oil and such xD Sounds like my trap goblins, who throw Molotov cocktails and then run away xD

[Crustypeanut]

Well they were partially inspired by a character I'm making for a campaign I'm about to join. He's an Emberkin Cleric of Brigh with the Fire[Smoke] Domain (and Artifice Domain), who has a heavy steel-shield with shield sconce, filterhood, smoked goggles (That can be flipped up when not in use), and who, well, loves fire. Then they were also inspired by Tucker's Kobolds.

This goblin tribe, the Backburners, have two main groups of goblin warriors - the 'Firebreathers', who have fragile heavy steel shields with built-in shield sconces with lit torches, smoked goggles, and 1-2 bottles of Keros Oil, as well as Rapid Reload for the Keros Oil (move action to drink). They stand in front, fighting defensively when breathing their fire - even with leather armor, 16 dex, and that shield, that brings them up to 20 AC and still have a +1 touch with that fire.

In the back, are goblin warriors with two-weapon fighting and are dual-throwing flasks of oil and/or alchemist's fire - even if I rule that they're considered "One Handed Weapons" for the purpose of dual wielding, and you can take out two flasks with a move action due to the feat, they still have a +1/+1 on their attacks with their flasks. Even if they miss with the oil, that square is now covered in oil, which means potentially hazardous terrain. These goblins also have filterhoods (with the aformentioned smoked goggles that can be flipped up if not needed).

All of the goblins have Fire-Resistant boots, torches, and tindertwigs - they're also just plain level 1 Goblin Warriors, slightly modified for feats and attribute allocation.

Then theres their Chieftain.. I'm still working on him, but he's going to be a 4-armed Goblin Grenadier Alchemist 7 with a Horsechopper, aformentioned Heavy Steel Shield, and an empty fourth hand for use with Alchemical Weapon or bombs. He also has the Immolation Discovery, and will be aided by numerous goblins with oil.

The goblins themselves are very skirmish-minded - they don't stand still. They use hot coal-covered ground, caltrops, marbles, smokesticks, and the odd firework to cover their escape. Not to mention numerous fire-oriented traps built into their home. If all else fails, they can light the crap-ton of braziers they have stationed around their home (an old abandoned dwarven fortress) and smoke their enemies out while they use their short-stature and filterhoods to lessen the effects of the smoke-filled air.

I feel sorry for the 7 Dwarven PCs that I'll be recruiting into this campaign :P They might not have their beards by the time they're done..

[Grollub]

You could also throw in a "water trap" ; if the ground is all hot coals.. dump the water and instant steam bath + put out any uncontrolled fires. :smallcool:

[Crustypeanut]

Well its not all hot coals - just certain areas. But I could look into doing that for at least one area - would certainly be unexpected!

Urist McOnFire#2 - "We need water! Someone get some water!" Click. "Uh.. did any hear tha- OH GODS! NOT THAT MUCH WATER!"

That certainly is the kind of reaction that I'd be looking for. I'm also planning on having a small trap where a goblin flees the PCs, goes around a corner and disappears through a goblin-sized hidden door in the wall. The corner itself would lead to a dead end - so the PCs would know theres a secret door there. When found and opened, one PC would have to get down on his hands and knees to get in there - and the Goblin would be waiting above the door, ready to drop a trap down that would catch the dwarf, trapping his head in the room. The Goblin would then cackle madly, place a padlock on the trap, locking the dwarf's head in place, before opening a small box containing a cat-sized spider to bite the dwarf's face. The goblin would then escape down a passage way, leaving that dwarf with the spider, and the other dwarves to try and pull him free.

Its a CR 1/4 Tiny Spider. How much harm could it possibly do to a nearly-helpless 3rd-level dwarf with his head stuck? :smalltongue:

[mcv]

If you want utter realism (I hope nobody does), it shouldn't burn at all. It's lamp oil, not gasoline, and as such, it doesn't actually burn all that easily.

Turns out one of the oldest classic tricks in RPGs doesn't actually work in real life.

But I'd probably rule that it extends the burning. It doesn't suddenly burn twice as hot, there's just more fuel to keep it going.

[Crustypeanut]

Well I could see that working as such, then. Might be too painful for them to be taking 2d6 per round basically when being constantly hit with cheap flasks of oil.

[the_david]

I have to agree with mcv here. We're not talking about petrochemical oil. It's vegetable oil so you need to use a wick, drench it in oil and then you can light it up. Ofcourse, you could always use someones clothes instead of a wick...:biggrin:

[Crustypeanut]

Unless these goblins got a hold of the more volatile oil through.. mysterious means. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

I would just extend the amount of time the person is on fire, rather than adding in another d6 of damage.
This. And in fact the RAW is that being on fire deals a d6 of damage per round. You could argue that oil flasks are their own effect, but treating someone who is on fire as being on fire makes a lot more sense.

This also solves the realism problem that says oil won't ignite that quickly. It becomes moot because the added oil isn't burning until later anyway. As for a wick, cloth from clothing works great as a wick. I should know from, um... "childhood experiments". The existing fire lights the "wick" and you're good to go.

[Crustypeanut]

Yeah I'm just going to stick with it extending the duration. Would 2 or 3 rounds extended be sufficient per extra flask of oil?

Also, what about if a player puts himself out with a successful reflex save? He's still covered in oil - would just another bit of flame re-light him on fire, albeit no 'instant' damage, and instead just 1d6 per round as usual?

And what about if he's doused with water? How would that affect re-lighting him?


Just asking these questions as.. well I'm planning on this being a theme of the final strip of the first part of the campaign :P

[J-H]

I'd boost the reflex save significantly, and maybe have a partial effect of taking d4 or d3 instead of d6 damage. Oil won't come off in water, and stop-drop-roll is less effective.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Unless these goblins got a hold of the more volatile oil through.. mysterious means. :smalltongue:

Oluem, as presented in Sandstorm, is exactly what you're looking for.

[Alefiend]

This sounds neat, but it's also an incredibly expensive way for relatively weak creatures to fight, when used at all regularly. All that oil, kerosene, and alchemist's fire starts to add up fast.

Also, fire + cave/tunnel system = really bad day for everybody inside, breath masks or no. Big fires near the cave mouth means all the oxygen gets sucked out. Big fires deeper inside the caves can create a venturi effect, where oxygen is sucked in through ventilation shafts to create an unstoppable firestorm.

Now for a positive addition: If you're worried about lamp oil not doing the trick (and it's not the best choice), have your troops use distilled alcohol instead. They can make it from just about any plant source, and it burns wicked hot.

[ericgrau]

Ya if he puts himself out I'd say any unburnt oil is still on him and might burn later. Water might not remove soaked in oil but it still absorbs heat and makes it somewhat harder to light. That doesn't do anything to the touch attack to hit and a hit will still ignite, but it could affect other things like the reflex save. For those I dunno exactly how much, but when it doubt you can always use the +2/-2 fudge rule. -1 damage wouldn't be unreasonable either. Even though oil doesn't dissolve in water, water can still remove excess oil that isn't soaked in. You might rule that any oil beyond the first or second pint is lost from submersion. A splash might remove less.

[Alefiend]

Ya if he puts himself out I'd say any unburnt oil is still on him and might burn later. Water might not remove soaked in oil but it still absorbs heat and makes it somewhat harder to light. That doesn't do anything to the touch attack to hit and a hit will still ignite, but it could affect other things like the reflex save. For those I dunno exactly how much, but when it doubt you can always use the +2/-2 fudge rule. -1 damage wouldn't be unreasonable either. Even though oil doesn't dissolve in water, water can still remove excess oil that isn't soaked in. You might rule that any oil beyond the first or second pint is lost from submersion. A splash might remove less.

Adam and Jamie would like to rebut that. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdsc.discovery.com%2Ftv-shows%2Fmythbusters%2Fvideos%2Fwater-and-oil.htm&ei=V9hPUYayBMfl4AP5fA&usg=AFQjCNFUypuiVhRpqpIDDwS1b0nBpvuE0w&sig2=xMqMZAYDNndxSLgHJX8igQ&bvm=bv.44158598,d.dmg)

[ericgrau]

That extra fire is only from spreading the fire from spreading the oil. It doesn't get any hotter. Presumably the player is already covered in oil and has nothing to lose. The surrounding area may suffer from the oil that gets removed by a splash of water. Submersion would usually disperse the oil harmlessly, but may leave some floating on the surface to cause trouble later.

Water is a pretty bad idea for oil fire fighting, but if you are on fire from oil it is often a good idea to jump in a pool.

[Bhaakon]

Even if we're talking about an accelerant more volatile than typical lamp oil, I'd still assume that it's safely stored within a container of some sort (likely ceramic or tin) and probably tucked deep within a pack. Any fire hot enough to penetrate that much protection and reach the oil would either have long since killed the PC or been so intense that the additional boost from the oil is trivial.

[Crustypeanut]

So now we have the question:

Does a kerosene oil fire flash-burn when water is put on it, like a grease fire?

And if not, how would my goblins be able to weaponize a grease fire? Would soaking someone in grease (thrown in glass flasks like oil) then lighting them on fire work?

Would lighting them on fire and then hitting them with grease work instead?

Note, I don't mean the spell, grease. I mean things like bottled cooking oil - I'm sure my goblins can come up with a means of producing it easily enough.

Also:

This sounds neat, but it's also an incredibly expensive way for relatively weak creatures to fight, when used at all regularly. All that oil, kerosene, and alchemist's fire starts to add up fast.

Oil is 1 silver a flask. Keros Oil is 5gp for 10 uses. Alchemist's fire is 20 gp a flask. The goblin chieftain has about +20 to his Craft: Alchemy check - he's been around for a while, surprisingly enough. (For a PF goblin, at least). Not to mention he has numerous level 1 Alchemist assistants, so mass producing these things is not too much of an issue for this tribe. They're surprisingly well off.

[Crustypeanut]

Even if we're talking about an accelerant more volatile than typical lamp oil, I'd still assume that it's safely stored within a container of some sort (likely ceramic or tin) and probably tucked deep within a pack. Any fire hot enough to penetrate that much protection and reach the oil would either have long since killed the PC or been so intense that the additional boost from the oil is trivial.

We're talking about oil being thrown onto the PC, not oil the PC happens to have on him tucked in a backpack.

[Spuddles]

Once you get a fire going nice and hot on a PC, pouring more oil on them would suck.

Say, a long hallway with a fountain at one end. Suddenly! Alchemist fire! PCs are on fire! Then lantern oil! More fire! They rush towards the fountain, when pit trap! They fall 30 feet onto spikes. Then more oil is poured on to them. They burn alive and also suffocate as the oxygen is rapidly depleted from their pit.

RIP PCs. :smallfrown:

Burning pitch might be what you're looking for. Extremely flammable, very sticky. Medieval napalm. Harvest it from evergreen trees, like spruce.


If you want utter realism (I hope nobody does), it shouldn't burn at all. It's lamp oil, not gasoline, and as such, it doesn't actually burn all that easily.

Turns out one of the oldest classic tricks in RPGs doesn't actually work in real life.

But I'd probably rule that it extends the burning. It doesn't suddenly burn twice as hot, there's just more fuel to keep it going.

I think the lantern oil is supposed to be kerosene. That has a sufficiently low flash point to use it as an incendiary weapon.

[Crustypeanut]

Also, fire + cave/tunnel system = really bad day for everybody inside, breath masks or no. Big fires near the cave mouth means all the oxygen gets sucked out. Big fires deeper inside the caves can create a venturi effect, where oxygen is sucked in through ventilation shafts to create an unstoppable firestorm.

They're goblins. They're not that smart. Plus, considering their home was built by Dwarves, the Dwarves probably included vents to get rid of the air - the goblins may have found them and installed simple ways to close it, in case they want to smoke someone out.

Plus their leader doesn't care, he has extracts of Resist Fire, and I may even make his Filter Hood have a built-in Bottle of Air. :smalltongue:

Also how about this for an alternative alchemical weapon thats similar to oil but would perfectly fit my needs:

This Oil, currently unnamed, would be sticky, hard to remove, and resistant to water - when someone doused in this oil is lit on fire, its annoyingly hard to remove - it deals 1d3 fire damage per round until smothered out or until 1d3 minutes goes by - its hard to remove, much like an Immolation bomb, and rolling on the ground does not help due to its alchemical nature - however, when water is put onto the person, it instead flash-burns, immediately dousing the fire, but dealing 2d6 fire damage to the person himself, and 1d6 to everyone within 5 feet and lighting them on fire (DC 15 Reflex to avoid catching on fire and to take only half damage).

This would probably be an expensive alchemical item - 50-100 or more gp I'd say.

Whatcha think? And once the players learn about this goblin-invention, they can also make it themselves.

[VanIsleKnight]

If the flask actually breaks when it strikes the person, depending on how you want to fluff that, it could cause other things the person is wearing/holding to catch fire again if they're keeping flammable stuff on their person, and make the DC to put out the flames higher. It might even add a point of fire damage the person takes every round.

So, +1 fire dmg, +1-+3 DC to put out the flames, flammable objects must make another save to avoid catching on fire, this time with a penalty.

That's how I'd rule it. I'd rule that any more flasks of oil wouldn't increase the fire damage or DC to put out the flames unless the creature was Large or bigger, but I'd make the flammable objects make another save, with stacking penalties.

Eventually the person would be covered in so much oil that it wouldn't make a difference if you added more or not, at which point additional flasks would have no effect. This number would obviously depend on how large the creature is.

[Ashtagon]

If you want utter realism (I hope nobody does), it shouldn't burn at all. It's lamp oil, not gasoline, and as such, it doesn't actually burn all that easily.

Turns out one of the oldest classic tricks in RPGs doesn't actually work in real life.

But I'd probably rule that it extends the burning. It doesn't suddenly burn twice as hot, there's just more fuel to keep it going.

If hp were representative of actual damage suffered, I'd agree. But they are a cinematic hero shield. As such, cinematic attacks should work to inflict extra damage. I'm quite comfortable with characters suffering more than the base 1d6 fire damage per round from burning. Conceptually, there has to be a few stages between "ooh, me hair's on fire" and "dip me in lava and feed me to the magmen".

That said, yeah, it's lamp oil, not gasoline, so it shouldn't ignite that easily. Maybe a Reflex save (DC = attack roll result) to avoid increasing the burning damage one step.

[ericgrau]

Note, I don't mean the spell, grease. I mean things like bottled cooking oil - I'm sure my goblins can come up with a means of producing it easily enough.
Cooking oil and lantern oil should be similar, if not identical. Depending at the point in history they may have used the same oil for both.


Also how about this for an alternative alchemical weapon thats similar to oil but would perfectly fit my needs:

This Oil, currently unnamed, would be sticky, hard to remove, and resistant to water - when someone doused in this oil is lit on fire, its annoyingly hard to remove - it deals 1d3 fire damage per round until smothered out or until 1d3 minutes goes by - its hard to remove, much like an Immolation bomb, and rolling on the ground does not help due to its alchemical nature - however, when water is put onto the person, it instead flash-burns, immediately dousing the fire, but dealing 2d6 fire damage to the person himself, and 1d6 to everyone within 5 feet and lighting them on fire (DC 15 Reflex to avoid catching on fire and to take only half damage).

This would probably be an expensive alchemical item - 50-100 or more gp I'd say.

Whatcha think? And once the players learn about this goblin-invention, they can also make it themselves.

During combat it would be about as good as alchemist's fire. Does half as much damage but burns for twice as long in combat. The difference is once the fight is over it's still burning. Or using it between combats as a trap. You can't assume that the PCs will always have access to water, so that leaves stop drop and roll. If the DC is the same as being on fire in general, then someone might put himself out in 2-3 rounds and again it's about the same as alchemist's fire. The goblins may therefore intentionally make sources of water available nearby to tempt PCs into using them, since this is much worse. For this reason I might put the stuff at 30 gp. It's a little more damage and in a larger area compared to alchemist's fire, but it takes a 2 round combo to exploit so it's usually less damage per action than alchemist's fire. Or it takes a tempting water source and that trick only works once or twice before the enemy wises up. The lower damage per time or less damage per action might even make it cheaper than alchemist's fire, but I assume that the user is exploiting it to the fullest with water flasks into tightly clustered opponents to spread it, or with nearby tempting water sources.

If stop drop and roll can't put it out then again you can't assume PCs always have water and it becomes an average of 40 damage against unprepared foes; i.e., broken.

Overall it seems like a good idea.

[Arcnsparc]

Id rule that it would have to be thrown pretty damn hard to break open the flask. Those things are thick!

[Crustypeanut]

They're generally made fragile enough so that they can be broken when thrown - especially flasks of alchemist's fire and acid. It even mentions in the Ultimate Equipment guide how a Holy Symbol with Flask compartment is too sturdy to break - unlike normal 'fragile' flasks.

So throwing it and breaking it isn't an issue in this regard.


During combat it would be about as good as alchemist's fire. Does half as much damage but burns for twice as long in combat. The difference is once the fight is over it's still burning. Or using it between combats as a trap. You can't assume that the PCs will always have access to water, so that leaves stop drop and roll. If the DC is the same as being on fire in general, then someone might put himself out in 2-3 rounds and again it's about the same as alchemist's fire. The goblins may therefore intentionally make sources of water available nearby to tempt PCs into using them, since this is much worse. For this reason I might put the stuff at 30 gp. It's a little more damage and in a larger area compared to alchemist's fire, but it takes a 2 round combo to exploit so it's usually less damage per action than alchemist's fire. Or it takes a tempting water source and that trick only works once or twice before the enemy wises up. The lower damage per time or less damage per action might even make it cheaper than alchemist's fire, but I assume that the user is exploiting it to the fullest with water flasks into tightly clustered opponents to spread it, or with nearby tempting water sources.

If stop drop and roll can't put it out then again you can't assume PCs always have water and it becomes an average of 40 damage against unprepared foes; i.e., broken.

You can put it out with a DC 15 Reflex Save, although Stop Drop and Roll does not grant the +2 to the Reflex save - see Immolation Bomb (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/immolation-bomb) for an example. This alchemical item is certainly weaker than that bomb, though - you can douse it with water - with the intended consequences. However, after thought, I think I would allow the +2 to the Reflex Save when using stop drop and roll - otherwise, barring jumping in a large pool of water (which is enough to not cause the flash burn) or succeeding on a raw DC 15 Reflex Save, it might be too difficult to remove. You need to take a full round action to extinguish it, for example. Hmm