Combat and Magic system changes

[Xavrias]

Hello,

I have a lot of changes to different parts of D&D that I'd like to make for my next campaign. There are just so many things I want to try out. I'll start off with a few odd things and see what kind of response I get to this.

For starters, my players and I don't like the idea that our characters can take so many hits from swords and arrows and still be alive, I know everyone has like divine favor or luck or something, but it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So I'm looking to create a system in which the D&D characters have less health than they currently have, but more way of dodging and stopping enemy attacks.

So currently I'm actually thinking of adding in three or four new parts to the game, all weapons will have a parry bonus, with light fast swords like rapiers with a good parry value, and Greatswords with low. So characters can parry enemy attacks. I think this will also change the thing where their's no point to taking one kind of sword, cause the other one does more damage. Also I'm wondering if you should be able to counterattack on parries? Any ideas?

The next part is that I don't like the way shields work, where they just add ac bonus. Instead I'm thinking shields should be able to help parry or block, but they take damage from doing it, also shield bashing should be a bigger part of the game. This goes for armor to, armor should take damage when it gets hit by swords. You can't tell me that your armor isn't broken after being bashed 8 times by the ogres Greatclub. Also armor should provide less overall bonus to Ac and instead grant some Damage reduction as well as armor.

Next, I think their should be a real way to dodge attacks and do awesome rolling maneuvers in D&D, but I honestly don't know how this will work yet.

My last change that I can think of right now is that grappling needs to work a lot better, because it's really lame right now, and I think if you are only fighting with a sword in one hand and nothing in the other, you should be able to use your offhand to grapple, with a slight penalty and be able to perform maneuvers such as throwing enemies to the ground with your offhand.

Thanks for listening, I won't get into the changes in the magic system yet, I just want to see what the playground thinks of these changes first. If you have any questions or tips or anything, just post.

[NichG]

Be careful about creating too many things the players need to track and update. If each piece of gear has a hitpoint pool that is changing during the fight, thats a lot of bookkeeping.

Less resilience/more dodge ability tends to lead to swingier systems, as far as the feel of play goes. Thats something to be aware of and cautious of since it has a few consequences for the campaign as a whole. The swingier the system, the more advantage is given to the side with numbers. This doesn't just mean '4 people can't defeat an army of 300', it also means that 'over the course of their entire adventuring career, 4 people will have trouble defeating 300 total adversaries'. Basically the more it becomes about that one hit or miss, the less it matters whether you're facing all your enemies at once or one at a time.

So basically, if you make things a lot swingier, you have to have less combat overall or end up with a higher fatality rate amongst the PCs.

One way to avoid this problem is to not actually make the game more swingy, but instead hide the attrition you don't like (hitpoints) into something that is conceptually more satisfying like stamina. There are lots of systems with vitality/wound point dichotomies that you can look at for inspiration (in some sense, giving your shield an hp track is kind of a way to do this though perhaps an awkward one). One simple example would be something like 'every time you're actually hit, there's roughly a 33% chance of being knocked out, 33% chance of dying, and 33% chance that you can keep fighting'. Then give players a stamina stat, which they can spend from to add to their AC/Saving throws against attacks at a rate determined by their equipment. For instance, an unarmed, unarmored character can spend 1 stamina for 1 AC against a strike. A character with a shield and good parrying weapon might be able to spend 1 stamina for 3 AC.

This way, stamina is sort of 'the new HP' and represents attrition of resources, and because you basically just have a flat chance of being killed by a successful blow you don't need to track a second 'actual hitpoint pool' kind of statistic.

[Xavrias]

Hey, thanks for replying. I don't want to make the system to 'swingy' but I also don't want to have it at the point where the pcs are hit 15-20 times by the ogre and they just keep going. My pcs are kinda big into realism, so I want to create a cool system that makes it so combat can work kinda like the way the battle between Achilles and Hector worked in the movie Troy, to those who have seen it. I believe their were about two wounds in that battle. That's what I'm aiming for, I just think their should be more ability for the pcs to block things coming their way, instead of them standing their and seeing if their ac holds up or not.

[limejuicepowder]

I've got an even easier solution: refluff hit points. Just because a character gets hit doesn't mean it's a solid strike that draws blood - it could be described as a glancing blow, or just a strike that is good enough that it takes some of the character's energy to deflect/avoid/parry/roll with it. When a character runs out of hit points, they've really run out of luck, or fortitude, or w/e you want to call it, and they take actual bodily harm.

Another word of caution: don't get too crazy with "realism." 9 times out of 10, applying some notion of realism is really just a reason to nerf mundanes even further, and casters can still do w/e they want "cause it's magic." This is the complete opposite of what the game needs.

[Xavrias]

Lime, that is an interesting concept, I suppose I could do that. And I'm not only changing the normal people, I have many changes for the magic in my campaign, because my next campaign is going to be a low magic campaign. And it will have I think 3 kinds of magic in it including, blood magic, faith magic and gemstone magic, their won't be any normal clerics and wizards any more. This is mainly because they don't fit into the campaign, I just figured I'd cover that later and see if I can get help with the main combat system changes first.
Thanks for replying, I suppose I could use that.

[Alefiend]

I apologize to long-time Playgrounders for this, since since I always pop into threads that ask about alternatives to the current HP/AC mechanics with the same advice. Maybe the OP has fresh ears to hear.

Try out the Conan d20 system from Mongoose Publishing. It has class-and-level based bonuses to Dodge and Parry, armor as DR (and weapons with varying levels of armor piercing), weapon finesse for potentially bypassing armor, and generally lower HP totals. It's a little more complex than standard D&D, but it's well thought out and potentially quite brutal.

[Flickerdart]

For starters, my players and I don't like the idea that our characters can take so many hits from swords and arrows and still be alive
Remember that a typical human being is a 1st level commoner, for whom a sword wielded by a competent warrior is definitely fatal. Your average 5th level barbarian (12+5d12+18 = 62 average HP) isn't just an incremental upgrade, but literally at the peak of human ability when it comes to withstanding blows. And yet the same competent warrior above could hew him limb from limb in a few strikes, if the barbarian didn't block and dodge and fight back. Past that point, characters are superhumans - even the "mundanes" put Hercules and Beowulf to shame.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in "normal" DnD, beyond level 12 will cause the characters to proc Knowledge checks and Bardic Knowledge checks. Low levels are technically the norm and a crit can one shot a lot of low levels.

[Xavrias]

Alefiend, I'll definitely check that out, that might be exactly what my players and I are looking for, it certainly sounds good as portrayed.
FlickerDart, my players and I want it so that the game is more about not getting hit and dodging attacks, so the players can still level and get better, but not so ridiculously OP that they, as said, are more powerful than beowulf and hercules.
We want our characters to be better than the average human, but not so powerful that they resemble gods.

[Flickerdart]

FlickerDart, my players and I want it so that the game is more about not getting hit and dodging attacks, so the players can still level and get better, but not so ridiculously OP that they, as said, are more powerful than beowulf and hercules.
We want our characters to be better than the average human, but not so powerful that they resemble gods.
Do you know the E6 variant? In a nutshell, it's a player-developed variant to the game that ends character class progressions at level 6 and from that point onward, awards new feats on a linear schedule. So a seasoned warrior could train himself in ten different styles of combat, but still be just as fragile as a seasoned warrior who only trained in one. It doesn't solve all of your issues (there isn't more dodging going on) but I've had good experiences with it.

[NichG]

The culture of high level characters basically being demigods in D&D doesn't really have anything to do with what the OP is trying to create (well, only is the sense that the OP is trying to move away from that state). Just because the game as is forces certain interpretations (e.g. all norms must be low level) doesn't mean that a modified game has to have the same things.

But its true - realism must be secondary to the playability of the game you end up with. Basically, if you want to increase realism you have to have even better game design skills than if you don't care about realism, because you somehow have to merge a lot of artificial constraints of what your players consider realistic with the core task of making a game that works as a game for everyone playing.

So perhaps the important thing is to get down to the basics:

- In your imagined version of the game, what does it mean (in terms of play experience) for characters to improve? In D&D they become much more resilient, obtain increased options, etc.
- What do you want play to feel like? What changes over the course of, say, a fight, and what is the impact that a character's decisions have on the state of the fight?
- What thematic elements do you want to try to highlight with mechanics (in the case of this thread, the focus seems to be 'even the mightiest heroes die when stabbed', but with the added requirement that it not force play to actually be more swingy). It also sounds like you want equipment destruction to be a big thing.

Then basically you have to figure out what these changes require you to do elsewhere to make the whole keep working. Since you're getting rid of casters (replacing entirely with your own stuff) we can ignore them for this discussion thankfully. So that leaves things like:

Gear is really important in basic D&D, and its very tedious to calculate how characters change when their gear changes, so if equipment destruction is a big thing then you have to streamline how gear works and de-emphasize 'big ticket magic items'.

[Xavrias]

Flickerdart, I'd never actually heard of the E6 variant, but I have played in a game similar, and it did work out pretty well, it was interesting to say the least and I did have fun.
NichG, I do realize that realism has to be secondary, that's why I'm here getting advice :smallbiggrin:
As for your questions, first, they will certainly still obtain more options, and they'll become better at fighting the way that they fight, as well as becoming better magically using my new magic systems. As they level and grow in power they'll become better at dodging and parrying, they'll probably get hit less, and they will gain hp, just not quite as much.

As the players fight, I want them to be able to sense more that they are winning. I find normally in D&D, the characters continue to hit the ogre until it dies, but it's hard for them to know if they're getting close. In my game once they've hit it in the chest a few times and severed it's hamstring, they should know, that even if they stopped hitting it that it would die of it's injuries.

and last, I do want it to seem more realistic, even heroes die when they are stabbed, or shot. Also, armor breaking is secondary too some of the other things, but I think it would make more sense, and be more realistic. When you block javelins with your shield, they usually get imbedded in the thing, and if after combat, you have like 8 of those things in your shield, you might need to replace it.

As for big magic items, I think overall my campaign will have less magic armor and weapons as they have wondrous items. Because even the magic armor and weapons will eventually break.

If anyone has any ideas on how to some of this stuff should work, go ahead and tell me, I still need some help with this.

[Zman]

Give the Wound/Vitality Point system a go. It will meet your first goal.

[NichG]

As for your questions, first, they will certainly still obtain more options, and they'll become better at fighting the way that they fight, as well as becoming better magically using my new magic systems. As they level and grow in power they'll become better at dodging and parrying, they'll probably get hit less, and they will gain hp, just not quite as much.

As the players fight, I want them to be able to sense more that they are winning. I find normally in D&D, the characters continue to hit the ogre until it dies, but it's hard for them to know if they're getting close. In my game once they've hit it in the chest a few times and severed it's hamstring, they should know, that even if they stopped hitting it that it would die of it's injuries.

and last, I do want it to seem more realistic, even heroes die when they are stabbed, or shot. Also, armor breaking is secondary too some of the other things, but I think it would make more sense, and be more realistic. When you block javelins with your shield, they usually get imbedded in the thing, and if after combat, you have like 8 of those things in your shield, you might need to replace it.

As for big magic items, I think overall my campaign will have less magic armor and weapons as they have wondrous items. Because even the magic armor and weapons will eventually break.

If anyone has any ideas on how to some of this stuff should work, go ahead and tell me, I still need some help with this.

What I'd suggest here is:

- A person has HP equal to their Con score. A person must make a Constitution check to stay conscious whenever they take any HP damage; the DC is fixed at 10. A person is 'critically wounded' at 0HP, and dead at -Con.
- For every point of HP damage taken, a person takes a -1 to all rolls. Reason: Part of 'make it clear when the party is winning'.
- Size categories modify HP and the rate at which you take penalties. Large: 1.5x, Huge: 2x, Gargantuan: 4x, Colossal: 8x. This way you can have big monsters that you slowly take down and which don't dodge, as well as having more human-like opponents who death spiral.
- Armor provides DR, but every time the DR is applied it is decreased by 1 until the armor is repaired. This DR is halved vs Bludgeoning. Modify the standard set of weapons to give Bludgeoning weapons about 25% less damage on average than slashing/piercing. Half the ACP of armor is added to the incremental Stamina cost of maneuvers (so a maneuver that trades 1 Stamina for 1 AC would trade 5 Stamina for 1 AC in heavy armor).
- HP damage from an attack is the weapon base damage plus the Str mod of the wielder. Nothing else adds to this: feats, weapon enhancements, whatever.
- The feat Toughness works as normal. Improved Toughness and other HP-increasing feats are changed to influence Stamina instead.
- Rolling within the crit range of a weapon grants a +10 to hit. There are no actual crits/etc though.
- Characters have a Stamina track, which is calculated as per normal D&D hitpoints. Characters regain their Fort save modifier in stamina each round, minimum 1. Stamina can be spent to power combat maneuvers and avoid blows. A character can spend no more than 20% of their remaining stamina on a single thing.
- Creatures cannot use Dodges against things more than 1 size category smaller than them.
- All characters have the following basic maneuvers:
-- Basic Dodge: Spend X stamina to add (X/2) dodge bonus to AC against one attack before knowing the result of the attack roll.
- Martial classes/feats/etc can grant better maneuvers or improve the maneuvers. For example:
-- Parry: Add a factor of (X/2) AC bonus to dodges, but your weapon is damaged.
-- Advanced Dodge: You can spend stamina after knowing the result of the attack roll.
-- Driving attack: Spend 5 Stamina on an attack to get a +5 to hit.
-- Shield Block: Spend 5 Stamina and your shield intercepts the attack - if it survives the attack's damage, the rest goes through however.
- Replace rogue sneak attack with something else, maybe Dodge-negation?
- Magic items are more 'toolkit' kinds of things than magic gear that improves fighting.
- You probably want to discard most classes/feats and rewrite from scratch at this point.

The fact that the amount of stamina you can spend at once decreases as the battle wears on means that there's a (soft) death spiral that can indicate you're making progress. Once your attacks go to hitpoints theres a sharp death spiral. Furthermore this system encourages surprise attacks and the like because a backstab will kill even a high level character. However, because of the stamina track there's still attrition in the system so its in many ways even less swingy than regular D&D.

Anyhow, thats roughly the kind of thing I'd make given your requirements. Having stamina power martial maneuvers could be an interesting twist that would give you lots of versatility amongst martial combatants.

[Xavrias]

Wow, that's some really good stuff NichG. I'll be sure to think that over and see what I like.
Now if you could also help with my magic systems, that would be amazing.
Dividing the magic up into 3 categories faith, blood and gemstone. With any of this stuff, critique on mechanics and on fluff please, I really just wanna know what you guys think.

Starting with faith, faith magic is not at all like any sort of normal magic, I think you'll use charisma for it, but not sure yet. Anyway, faith magic works as such;
the more you believe in something happening, the more likely it is to happen. So a priests faith that something will happen, can bring it about to happen. (Not sure if that made sense, tell me if it doesn't.) An example would be that, a priest of Pelor has faith that Pelor won't let the fighter die, and so the priest prays, and his faith in Pelor allows him to heal the fighter and not let him die. This could work in a variety of ways, including bonuses to hit and saves as well as other small spells. I was thinking of using a point system for this. Maybe the priest has 3 faith points left, and can turn these points into +3 to hit a creature or something. I'm not sure yet

Blood magic is more flashy and more damaging to others. Blood magic takes the blood of yourself, or in some cases of others to keep it alive. This may also stop casters from being as Op as normal, as casters have less hp than other casters and would be sacrificing these hitpoints to produce their magic.
I was thinking first level spells would cost 1 hp, 2nd 2, 3rd 3, etc. And you'd be able to heighten spells by paying twice the cost. Thoughts? I might also allow that a player can store up to 3 times his/her level in others blood to fuel his spells.

Last gemstone magic. basically all gems in my world have special abilities. So one gem may have the ability to use 4 spells, one 1st, one 2nd, one 3rd, and one 4th. Players would be collecting these gemstones to use the magic inside of them, which is obviously a little expensive, but gemstones can be used for all sorts of different spells. Gemstone magic is a little more about versatility. Also in my world, having a gem encrusted scepter may not mean someone is also rich, it's probably also an indicator that he can use those gems to do some fairly powerful magic as well.

Anyway, if you have any thoughts, please tell me.

[Xavrias]

Guess I scared everyone with my magic systems :smallannoyed:

[NichG]

There's not much concrete to comment on there, is the thing. I mean, if what you're saying is 'standard D&D spells but these particular modified ways of accessing them' then magic is still going to completely overwhelm everything else as usual. Even Lv1-Lv3 spells can allow casters to dominate (given a player with the knowledge of how and the will to use it, of course). The result, especially if spells can bypass a lot of the protections that martial characters have against getting hit, will be that casters can just oneshot most characters from afar.

For anything that looks anything like D&D magic, the only answer is pretty much throw it all out and make a short list of new/old spells you want to retain. Especially if you're changing how the other systems in the game work in a big way. Now, for details:

- For Faith, you're going to need to be a lot more precise about what it does. It sounds like an action point mechanic though, so borrow from: Eberron, d20 Modern (and talents powered by action points!), L5R and its void points, 7th Sea and its drama dice, etc.

- For blood and gem magic I can't really comment until I know what the actual spells are going to be like.

[Xavrias]

Alright, thanks for the feedback anyway, I'll think on it and get back with more precise stuff later.

[MirddinEmris]

NichG, I think it would be wise to allow Weapon Specialization to add damage, it'll give the fighters some edge and Gods see, they need it.

[Xavrias]

I think MirddinEmris is right, the fighters should probably be able to add some damage to their attacks.

[RagnaroksChosen]

In regards to your concerns about HP:

Have you thought about using the vitality system?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm

Vitality represents near misses, scratches, close calls, etc.
Where wounds represent actually getting hit. I found this system works out great for the vib that you are talking about. We use it in my current group when we want a campaign to have that feel to it.

[Xavrias]

I'll certainly take a look, thanks for the link.

[Alefiend]

I'm curious about your faith magic. What happens when you fail? You clap your hands to say you believe in fairies, and the magic happens—but the target makes its save/SR check, or the bonus you grant to an ally isn't enough to make a difference. You had faith that it would work out for you, but it didn't. If that happens enough times, especially in close succession, wouldn't your faith waver? Shouldn't it be harder to let your invisible sky friend be your copilot if he keeps not making it to the plane on time?

[Xavrias]

That's a really good point Alefiend, I was actually talking to my friend earlier, and he suggested that when you used faith magic and it was successful, or if you saw someone else of your faith perform a miracle, that some of your faith points for that day should replenish. And if it doesn't work to many times, then yes, your faith should waver and you should lose some of those faith points.