Star Wars SAGA as it Compares to 3.5

[Empedocles]

So I started a SAGA pbp game here on the forums, and realized I know a lot less about it's balance points, tricks, etc. then I do about 3.5's despite the two game's similarities. Hence, I have a few questions about SAGA.

Does it have an equivalent tier system? If so, what are common fixes, what classes/prestige classes go into what tier, etc.

What are generally regarded as "broken" aspects of the game? I'm betting that force powers fall into here fairly often, but which ones specifically?

I'm sure I'll think of more...

[Person_Man]

So a lot of it depends on how many and what splat books you have. D&D has a metric ton of them. SWSE has a dozen or so, and most of them are campaign specific. Thus each supplement can have a dramatic impact on the game play.

In general though, the main tricks revolve around using the Force and/or Force Points and/or lightsabers. If you have them and spend resources on improving them, then you're in the top tier. For the most part everyone else isn't, though this is more of a rough guideline and not a universal rule. (I vaguely remember some insane droid builds floating around at one point).

[Empedocles]

So a lot of it depends on how many and what splat books you have. D&D has a metric ton of them. SWSE has a dozen or so, and most of them are campaign specific. Thus each supplement can have a dramatic impact on the game play.

In general though, the main tricks revolve around using the Force and/or Force Points and/or lightsabers. If you have them and spend resources on improving them, then you're in the top tier. For the most part everyone else isn't, though this is more of a rough guideline and not a universal rule. (I vaguely remember some insane droid builds floating around at one point).

Hmm okay, that sounds like it's probably accurate (and as the internet has proven time and time again, if something sounds accurate, it is! :smalltongue: ) No but seriously, thanks!

Personally, that imbalance doesn't really bother me. The most powerful characters in Star Wars were always the force users, and it was extremely rare for a non force user to be able to compete with the force users in a meaningful way; exceptions included droids/cyborgs (Grievous, Proxy) or people who really invested heavily in their equipment (Cad Bane, Durge).

HOLD UP epiphany moment. The 3.5 imbalance, by my aforementioned logic (which you're welcome to find illogical), of quadratic wizards and linear fighters...kind of makes sense. Gandalf is more powerful then Frodo (Gandalf is an outsider with SLAs blah blah blah), Raistlin is more powerful then...anybody, and in D&D themed literature (i.e. Driz'zt novels) spellcasters are by far the most feared of enemies. Huh. Food for thought?

Whooooooooooooooo I get side tracked! Thoughts, though?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The main two imbalances in the system are skill scaling and condition stacking. By skill scaling I mean that you get +1/2 level to skill checks, Skill Training gives you +5, and Skill Focus gives another +5, so a character with both Training and Focus in one skill at low levels has a +10 advantage over someone without that; whenever they use one of the many abilities that roll skill vs. skill or skill vs. defense they'll have a huge advantage. On the other hand, defenses scale at +level, not +1/2 level, so by 20th level all characters have gained +10 to defenses over skills, canceling out the Training and Focus boosts.

This means that Jedi padawans wreck stormtroopers at low levels but Boba Fett can hold his own against Luke Skywalker at high levels; this matches the movies well enough, but some people don't like that their Jedi, Scoundrels, and Nobles actually get weaker against even-level opposition as they level up. The most common houserule to fix this is to change Skill Focus so that instead of giving you +5 to that skill, it changes the scaling on that skill from +1/2 level to +level. That keeps modifiers more in line with defenses at all levels, and drops the low-level modifier vs. other skills while raising it at high levels.

By condition stacking I mean that there are plenty of abilities that let you increase the number of steps you drop someone on the condition track whenever you do that. It's possible to stack them so you can drop someone 4 steps in one hit (and thus give them -10 to most stats and checks, removing them as a threat) or even 5 steps in one hit (one-shotting anyone if you can deal more damage than their Fort defense, and dealing ~20-30 damage isn't hard). The best solution to that is to not allow those types of abilities to stack, so the best you can do is 3 steps (1 for going over their damage threshold, 1 for using stun damage, 1 from using another ability).

Other than that, there are some problematic aspects of the game (Force users have more cool toys than others, you can tweak starships and equipments to crazy levels, droids can reprogram themselves to get whatever skills they need, etc.) but there's nothing else that's really broken about the system. My normal group is the kind who play crazy Tier 1 PCs in D&D and can take over small Star Destroyers by themselves in SWSE, and I haven't ever needed to ban or houserule any other things besides the skill and condition stuff for power reasons.

[Tanuki Tales]

Wasn't there also a Gen'Dai build floating around that could survive a few direct shots from an Imperial Star Destroyer?

Not exactly that crazy in lore context (I mean, Durge survived "kissing the sun", although he needed heavy surgical treatment to get back into any kind of fighting shape), but it's one of the things I think of when people ask where SAGA can start to break.

[dysprosium]

I was always under the impression that SWSE was closer in kin to 4E . . .

[Empedocles]

The main two imbalances in the system are skill scaling and condition stacking. By skill scaling I mean that you get +1/2 level to skill checks, Skill Training gives you +5, and Skill Focus gives another +5, so a character with both Training and Focus in one skill at low levels has a +10 advantage over someone without that; whenever they use one of the many abilities that roll skill vs. skill or skill vs. defense they'll have a huge advantage. On the other hand, defenses scale at +level, not +1/2 level, so by 20th level all characters have gained +10 to defenses over skills, canceling out the Training and Focus boosts.

This means that Jedi padawans wreck stormtroopers at low levels but Boba Fett can hold his own against Luke Skywalker at high levels; this matches the movies well enough, but some people don't like that their Jedi, Scoundrels, and Nobles actually get weaker against even-level opposition as they level up. The most common houserule to fix this is to change Skill Focus so that instead of giving you +5 to that skill, it changes the scaling on that skill from +1/2 level to +level. That keeps modifiers more in line with defenses at all levels, and drops the low-level modifier vs. other skills while raising it at high levels.

By condition stacking I mean that there are plenty of abilities that let you increase the number of steps you drop someone on the condition track whenever you do that. It's possible to stack them so you can drop someone 4 steps in one hit (and thus give them -10 to most stats and checks, removing them as a threat) or even 5 steps in one hit (one-shotting anyone if you can deal more damage than their Fort defense, and dealing ~20-30 damage isn't hard). The best solution to that is to not allow those types of abilities to stack, so the best you can do is 3 steps (1 for going over their damage threshold, 1 for using stun damage, 1 from using another ability).

Other than that, there are some problematic aspects of the game (Force users have more cool toys than others, you can tweak starships and equipments to crazy levels, droids can reprogram themselves to get whatever skills they need, etc.) but there's nothing else that's really broken about the system. My normal group is the kind who play crazy Tier 1 PCs in D&D and can take over small Star Destroyers by themselves in SWSE, and I haven't ever needed to ban or houserule any other things besides the skill and condition stuff for power reasons.

Alright, thanks, this is actually really, really helpful. In my current SAGA pbp campaign I went ahead and said no Skill Focus (Use the Force) until 6th level, but you expanded and clarified. Thank you so much!


Wasn't there also a Gen'Dai build floating around that could survive a few direct shots from an Imperial Star Destroyer?

Not exactly that crazy in lore context (I mean, Durge survived "kissing the sun", although he needed heavy surgical treatment to get back into any kind of fighting shape), but it's one of the things I think of when people ask where SAGA can start to break.

Eh, a gen'dai surviving that sounds realistic. Maybe SAGA needs something more like 3.5's LA?


I was always under the impression that SWSE was closer in kin to 4E . . .

Um, not at all. If only 4e had been more of a SAGA, adapted for fantasy...that would have been amazing! But SAGA is very much d20.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I was always under the impression that SWSE was closer in kin to 4E . . .

SWSE was supposedly used as a test bed for some 4e design goals, just like Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum were used for that and like ToB was based on an early draft of 4e mechanics.

It shares several superficial aspects with 4e (defenses instead of saves, PrC prereqs generally being level-based and happening at the same time, classes sharing the same overall structure, Force powers and starship maneuvers and other abilities having the same resource system, tighter numerical scaling, etc.)...but then, it also shares some superficial aspects with d20 Modern (fewer and more generic base classes, the talent system, simplified combat maneuvers, "action points," etc.) and late 3e (emphasis on cycling/at-will powers, skill-based "magic," thematically focused characters, cheap and customizable equipment, etc.) and a few other d20 variants.

[russdm]

Personally, that imbalance doesn't really bother me. The most powerful characters in Star Wars were always the force users, and it was extremely rare for a non force user to be able to compete with the force users in a meaningful way; exceptions included droids/cyborgs (Grievous, Proxy) or people who really invested heavily in their equipment (Cad Bane, Durge).

I have to disagree with you there. Force-Users are actually not that tougher than non-force-users. The clones were able to take out alot of the Jedi. Other jedi and sith both have been killed easily throughout the history of the star wars universe. Killing force-users is actually easy if you have some information. You can set traps for them and do other stuff, which will work to kill them. There are ways to deal with them: some metals, creatures, training can make force-users have a hard time dealing with you/problem.

There are plenty of examples of non force-users winning fights. You can find them in the expanded universe and movies and games.

[Ravenica]

Small powergame suggestion, dip just enough levels of soldier to snag armored defense and improved armored defense, push your armor proficiency to medium, and grab one of the even level medium power armors. then tweak the hell out of it with the scum and villany equipment modding rules. The dip should even out and flaws in your base defense mod's and the extra 3-4 reflex defense from the armor is worth it, not to mention all the other goodies you can carry around build in

[Empedocles]

I have to disagree with you there. Force-Users are actually not that tougher than non-force-users. The clones were able to take out alot of the Jedi. Other jedi and sith both have been killed easily throughout the history of the star wars universe. Killing force-users is actually easy if you have some information. You can set traps for them and do other stuff, which will work to kill them. There are ways to deal with them: some metals, creatures, training can make force-users have a hard time dealing with you/problem.

There are plenty of examples of non force-users winning fights. You can find them in the expanded universe and movies and games.

Of course there are! I'm a huge Star Wars fan, and I'm well aware that it's not all that uncommon for non force users to beat force users, but almost always it involves the non force user evening the playing field pretty dramatically. As you said, traps, or other major equipment are a pretty common solution. Cortosis alloys are another solution (and are available in SAGA). But it always involves something pretty dramatic to even things out.

Still, in general, stick a Jedi and his lightsaber in a colosseum with a soldier and his blaster, and the Jedi wins.

[Tanuki Tales]

I think Jango Fett is a better example of "enough tech to stomp Jedi" than Durge. Sure, Durge had good equipment and some cybernetics, but his ability to laugh at lightsabers, shrug off an entire belt of thermal detonators (to the face!) and possessing speed sufficient to completely speedblitz Jedi Masters of Obi-Wan's caliber is what let him win against Force Users.

Makes me really wish we could have seen a seriously drawn/written fight between Pre-Wuss Grevious and Durge instead of that crap Clone Wars comic where Grevious soloed Durge and Ventress in a 2 v 1.

[Mando Knight]

The biggest difference between most characters and Jedi is that a Jedi Knight is a level 8 heroic character (or, at the very least, level 7. A level 8 Jedi is experienced enough to have taken his/her first level in the Jedi Knight PrC). Your run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight is at least as experienced as elite soldiers and fighter aces... even a Padawan has been trained more than the standard stormtrooper.

"Force mages" might have significant advantages over other low-level characters (especially if Skill Focus is allowed before like level 10), but their overall combat effectiveness isn't that much greater than a soldier of similar experience level. The main difference is that the Jedi doesn't depend on his equipment as much as the soldier does... but the soldier can increase his effectiveness more through equipment than many Jedi.

[Empedocles]

I think Jango Fett is a better example of "enough tech to stomp Jedi" than Durge. Sure, Durge had good equipment and some cybernetics, but his ability to laugh at lightsabers, shrug off an entire belt of thermal detonators (to the face!) and possessing speed sufficient to completely speedblitz Jedi Masters of Obi-Wan's caliber is what let him win against Force Users.

Makes me really wish we could have seen a seriously drawn/written fight between Pre-Wuss Grevious and Durge instead of that crap Clone Wars comic where Grevious soloed Durge and Ventress in a 2 v 1.

Yeah, okay, good point. Jango then.


The biggest difference between most characters and Jedi is that a Jedi Knight is a level 8 heroic character (or, at the very least, level 7. A level 8 Jedi is experienced enough to have taken his/her first level in the Jedi Knight PrC). Your run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight is at least as experienced as elite soldiers and fighter aces... even a Padawan has been trained more than the standard stormtrooper.

"Force mages" might have significant advantages over other low-level characters (especially if Skill Focus is allowed before like level 10), but their overall combat effectiveness isn't that much greater than a soldier of similar experience level. The main difference is that the Jedi doesn't depend on his equipment as much as the soldier does... but the soldier can increase his effectiveness more through equipment than many Jedi.

So, overall...the balance in SAGA seems to actually make sense...that wasn't the basic answer I was expecting.

[Dienekes]

Saga is in this nice little bubble between 3.5 and 4e. In that bubble resides as close to perfection as WotC ever got.

As far as tiers go, it's not really at all like 3.5. Every class has a lot of options that allow a lot of customizability. It would probably be much easier to talk about what tier different builds are as opposed to different classes. But if you have to give a rough outline. Jedi are tier 3, everyone else is tier 4 until around 8th level or so (give or take a level or two based on how much an optimizer the player is) at which time everything evens out.

There are ways to break the game. But the biggest one is the low level Force Mage, which steadily loses power until the point it's unoptimized by level 20. The next is the CT killer, as described above which can 1shot Darth Vader. Do not let any players do this. There are a few more like an unstoppable Persuasion build. Unkillable Jedi builds. But on the whole they're the niche cases.

The only thing to worry about when making a character is to actually read what the abilities do, and keep an eye on prestige classes. The prestige classes are basically the second half of the base classes (and really obviously so, Elite Trooper is an advanced Soldier, ect.) so it's generally a good idea to look at what the prerequisites to get into them are so you can do so as early as possible.

[Empedocles]

Saga is in this nice little bubble between 3.5 and 4e. In that bubble resides as close to perfection as WotC ever got.

As far as tiers go, it's not really at all like 3.5. Every class has a lot of options that allow a lot of customizability. It would probably be much easier to talk about what tier different builds are as opposed to different classes. But if you have to give a rough outline. Jedi are tier 3, everyone else is tier 4 until around 8th level or so (give or take a level or two based on how much an optimizer the player is) at which time everything evens out.

There are ways to break the game. But the biggest one is the low level Force Mage, which steadily loses power until the point it's unoptimized by level 20. The next is the CT killer, as described above which can 1shot Darth Vader. Do not let any players do this. There are a few more like an unstoppable Persuasion build. Unkillable Jedi builds. But on the whole they're the niche cases.

The only thing to worry about when making a character is to actually read what the abilities do, and keep an eye on prestige classes. The prestige classes are basically the second half of the base classes (and really obviously so, Elite Trooper is an advanced Soldier, ect.) so it's generally a good idea to look at what the prerequisites to get into them are so you can do so as early as possible.

Man that makes me want to refluff it for more universal play...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Man that makes me want to refluff it for more universal play...

There have been several attempts to convert SWSE to other genres and settings, two of the best quality of which are Swords & Sorcery SAGA (http://www.gneech.com/swordandsorcery/) and Wheel of Time SAGA (http://www.towncenter.tv/TempRPG/WheelTimeRPGSagaConversion.pdf). Don't think there's been a genericized version, though.

[Empedocles]

There have been several attempts to convert SWSE to other genres and settings, two of the best quality of which are Swords & Sorcery SAGA (http://www.gneech.com/swordandsorcery/) and Wheel of Time SAGA (http://www.towncenter.tv/TempRPG/WheelTimeRPGSagaConversion.pdf). Don't think there's been a genericized version, though.

Thanks!

Also, quick unrelated SAGA question (I'd rather not open a new thread) does anybody know if the statistics for the Anzati race are in any SAGA supplement?

[Ravenica]

I've used SAGA edition frequently for Warhammer 40k based games as well, very little refluffing is even needed for that purpose (force becomes warp)

[Mando Knight]

So, overall...the balance in SAGA seems to actually make sense...that wasn't the basic answer I was expecting.
More-or-less. Part of Saga's balance is gauging your expectations.

Stormtroopers are Non-heroic 4, each level of which is strictly terrible (¾ BAB, d4 HD, no Force Points, no bonus feats, no features, no talents, no bonus to defenses, doesn't advance defenses, only gets +1 to one ability every four levels instead of +1 to two). Recruit soldiers are Soldier 1, and can barely scrape together the credits for a rifle and cheap armor... they're barely any better than common mooks (they're just a bit more durable). Inexperienced Padawans are Jedi 1.
Also, quick unrelated SAGA question (I'd rather not open a new thread) does anybody know if the statistics for the Anzati race are in any SAGA supplement?Anzati are in The Unknown Regions, page 11. The main discussion thread for Saga is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267237)

[russdm]

You can die at first level from being shot at by a stormtrooper though. And dumb parties/players can get their parties TPKed easily agaisnt stormies. I know because it happened to my players while running the first dawn of defiance adventure. They managed to get to the carbonite block and got their butts handed to them by the enemies, i had to modify the medpac up so they could actually beat the encounter and continue on with the campaign.

[Empedocles]

More-or-less. Part of Saga's balance is gauging your expectations.

Stormtroopers are Non-heroic 4, each level of which is strictly terrible (¾ BAB, d4 HD, no Force Points, no bonus feats, no features, no talents, no bonus to defenses, doesn't advance defenses, only gets +1 to one ability every four levels instead of +1 to two). Recruit soldiers are Soldier 1, and can barely scrape together the credits for a rifle and cheap armor... they're barely any better than common mooks (they're just a bit more durable). Inexperienced Padawans are Jedi 1.Anzati are in The Unknown Regions, page 11. The main discussion thread for Saga is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267237)

Thanks! Wasn't aware that that existed.

[Mando Knight]

You can die at first level from being shot at by a stormtrooper though.

Stormtroopers are more accurate than many first-level characters and carry blaster rifles. First-level characters have more HP, but even so it's barely enough to survive a single hit from a rifle (and only Soldiers get enough to survive a max-damage roll), so may find themselves spending Force Points to stay alive. In return, most first-level characters should spend their starting credits on either their own blaster rifle or a heavy blaster pistol (which does the same damage but is a pistol, so Nobles and Scoundrels can use it), and first-level Jedi should take Deflect as their first talent, as stormtroopers generally can't survive hits from blaster rifles or heavy pistols.