Wizard feat questions [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Asteron

2013-03-25, 02:10 PM

I'm building my first wizard in a long time. The only other wizard I built was a blaster. I've realized since that that is not the best use of a wizards power and I am trying to build a more effective one. With that in mind, I have some feat questions.

1) What are a few good spells to use Arcane Thesis on?

2) Around what level should I take Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought?
- It seems like you would want to wait to mid-levels to take them so that you can apply them to better spells, but not too long so that you don't get very much mileage with it...

3) What are some great non-metamagic feats to take?

For background, I am going Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage X/TBD X. Right now we are 3rd level. I will take 2 flaws, Domain Wizard variant, and the fighter feat variant. Ability scores TBD.

Flickerdart

2013-03-25, 02:19 PM

It doesn't terribly matter what you use Spell Mastery on, since Uncanny Forethought's alternative mode is much better. The order in which you take your feats will most likely be dictated by the meeting of prerequisites, so let it fall where it may.

As for the other feats, what are you aiming to do? Debuffs? Battlefield control?

Karnith

2013-03-25, 02:25 PM

1) What are a few good spells to use Arcane Thesis on?If you're going for straight-up blasting, Orb of Force and/or Orb of Fire (with Searing Spell) are good choices. Enervation is pretty good for debuffing/straight-up killing things (but beware Death Ward and/or undead). If you're looking for non-blasty spells to add Arcane Thesis onto, Kelgore's Grave Mist (which has area debuff and damage) is pretty good.

2) Around what level should I take Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought?
- It seems like you would want to wait to mid-levels to take them so that you can apply them to better spells, but not too long so that you don't get very much mileage with it...Given the caster level penalty for the second option of Uncanny Forethought, I'd wait until level 3 to take it, unless you're starting at a higher level. It's a great feat at any time after that, though if you're going into a feat-intensive build you should probably wait on it.

Also, it doesn't really matter when you take Spell Mastery. It's not like you'll ever use it.

3) What are some great non-metamagic feats to take?Improved Initiative is usually a good choice, although between Nerveskitter, Celerity, and the like you can probably do without it at higher levels.

Craft Contingent Spell (Complete Arcane) will probably get banned at your table, but if it isn't you should seriously consider it. Because it's actually insane.

Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) is a pretty good alternative to Uncanny Forethought if you don't want to spend two feats on the latter. Summon Elemental (also from Complete Mage) is endlessly useful.

EDIT: Oops, I just saw that you're starting at level 3. That rules out Craft Contingent Spell and Summon Elemental until later.

Also, it's not really a feat, but in the future I would strongly recommend that you take the Spontaneous Divination ACF (Complete Champion) instead of a feat at level 5.

Story

2013-03-25, 02:57 PM

Craft Contingent Spell (Complete Arcane) will probably get banned at your table, but if it isn't you should seriously consider it. Because it's actually insane.

In the probably banned category, you might as well mention Leadership.

Also, if Dragonlance is allowed, you should definitely get Reserves of Strength. I believe it's technically 1st party, but it may be hard to get accepted.

Hyde

2013-03-25, 03:40 PM

Locate City Bomb.

Malachei

2013-03-25, 03:43 PM

1) What are a few good spells to use Arcane Thesis on?

Depends on your style and role, of course. Generally, any mid- to lower high-level spell, so you can stack a lot of metamagic on it. How low the spell level should be depends on how many metamagic reducers you will be allowed to have.

In general, Enervation is a fine choice, as are the Orbs.

2) Around what level should I take Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought?
- It seems like you would want to wait to mid-levels to take them so that you can apply them to better spells, but not too long so that you don't get very much mileage with it...

Because you can cast any spell you know as a full-round action, it is not really important, if you're willing to accept the drawback. However, -2 caster level can be a nuisance, especially since you'll want to cast your highest spells in an emergency. In case your DM lets you retrain, I'd eventually want Limited Wish for versatility, a transport spell (greater teleport, greater plane shift), a dispel spell (greater dispel magic, chain dispel or reaving dispel), plus at least one spell that blocks line of effect (wall of force, fog spells, something that delays your enemy targeting you).

3) What are some great non-metamagic feats to take?

For background, I am going Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage X/TBD X. Right now we are 3rd level. I will take 2 flaws, Domain Wizard variant, and the fighter feat variant. Ability scores TBD.

Non-metamagic feats: Very difficult, it really depends on style, role and setting. Craft Contingent Spell is always a strong choice, if allowed.

For an Incantatrix, I'd suggest Precocious Apprentice for the +2 Spellcraft bonus, which helps you in persisting.

Collegiate Wizard might be good, depending on how easy scrolls are acquired in the game world. Nymph's Kiss could be interesting. Spell Penetration can be a good choice if you expect to fight a lot of SR monsters and, perhaps, don't have access to Assay etc. Consider a reserve feat.

... and for metamagic feats: As an Incantatrix, Extend + Persist, obviously. Also Quicken Spell, Fell Drain, Twin Spell, Empower Spell. Especially for Arcane Thesis, metamagic feats with a +1 adjustment and a +2 adjustment are interesting, because they will be reduced to +0 and +0 (with Incantatrix), respectively. You'll probably be aware that Arcane Thesis has been errata'ed to not reduce a spell's level below its original, but each and every metamagic feat can be reduced to 0.

Asteron

2013-03-25, 03:49 PM

Thanks for the responses everyone!

I am trying to stay away from the cheesier spells and feats (kind of ironic since I'm going Incantatrix...) so things like Craft Contingency Spell and polymorph cheese are things I am shying away from.

I am going to be focused on debuffing/BC with a little buffing (although that will be the primary province of the cleric.) I am going to probably ban Evocation for Incantatrix.

I will check out Reserves of Strength when I get home.

Malachei

2013-03-25, 04:00 PM

Why are you dropping evocation? I know it is the usual suggestion, but that doesn't make it the best alternative for each and every build.

Will you go Elven Generalist or will you be specialized prior to entering Incantatrix?

As you're planning to go Archmage, which two schools are you planning to take Spell Focus in?

Fighter feat variant: Although it is the standard advice, it really depends on how mechanic your DM will handle acquiring magic items. Unless there are plenty of magic shops in the setting, I suggest not losing scribe scroll.

Phaederkiel

2013-03-25, 04:00 PM

I can heartily suggest keeping your ability to make scrolls and taking the feat metamagic school focus.

with

scribe scroll
sculpt spell
metamagic school focus
and sudden maximise

i made dozens of cheap metamagicked scrolls. You need either the school focus or some sudden feats to really make it shine, but both are handy to have.

Arcane thesis oviously also works, if you are mainly metamagicking one specific spell ( as I was doing with acid breath), but is not as good if you are having a second spell you want to meta. I recently switched to making sudden maximized, sudden empowered scrolls of Elemental darts and am very happy.

This all sounds very blasty, but the truth is that it allows me to prepare less damage and more utility.

TL;DR:
scribe Scroll with either Metamagic school focus or Sudden maximize rocks to no end, and I think sculpt spell is the best MM there is at lvl 1-7.

Malachei

2013-03-25, 04:03 PM

As you're going Incantatrix (I know I'm fantastically overdue in finishing this...):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223438

Asteron

2013-03-25, 04:32 PM

The problem with Scribe Scroll is that we are going to play through Red Hand of Doom and I understand that it is very time sensitive. I don't think that I will have time to make many scrolls. Also, the handbooks at Minmax seem to frown on scribing scrolls as a waste of time a resources...

I'm going Domain Wizard, so I'm not specializing.

As far as Archmage goes, I haven't thought that far ahead. We have a couple of months before we start so I have time to tweak things.

Malachei

2013-03-25, 04:37 PM

If you're playing RHOD, you'll probably want to skip all the Item Creation feats. In that case, Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll is a better choice, of course.

Ah, yes, Domain wizard. Missed this.

I hope your DM homebrews the encounters. As written, RHOD encounters are really easy to handle for an only very slightly optimized party. Even though you are not looking for specific spell cheese, your build is overall very strong. If the other party members are looking for the same overall power level, you'll probably crush the enemy as written. That said, RHOD is a great campaign, and adjusting encounters doesn't take much work.

You might have seen the RHOD handbook (attention major spoilers): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171284

Phaederkiel

2013-03-25, 04:45 PM

I can only offer what I have experienced myself as a player.

Unfortunately, I cannot go into detail with RHOD, since I DM'd it myself and do not want to decrease your enjoyment with this fantastic module.

But, to take another example: At the moment, I play a wizard 4 / beguiler 1 / Ultimate Magus 5 in the Witchfire triology. We started at lvl 1.
This module also has a tight timeline (also not as tight as certain other modules...) and still I have found downtime again and again. On board of a ship, for example. Before resting in Town. Etc.

Scribe scroll takes one day per 1000gp the scroll costs.
The price is spell lvl x caster lvl x 25. So even with some quite high spells, you will hardly come close to 1000 gp. And when you go with a lower lvl, you can still adventure half the day.

Asteron

2013-03-25, 04:45 PM

I have already directed him to that handbook. I had planned on running the campaign a year ago and then it fell through. Fortunately, I hadn't read much of the actual book but I remembered that the handbook seemed to be very helpful.

He knows full well how badly prewritten campaigns can be busted with optimization... He and I have done it to another DM a couple of times!

Phaederkiel

2013-03-25, 05:14 PM

Malachei

2013-03-25, 05:18 PM

As most of the time, Phaederkiel gives excellent advice.

I must say I've never ever taken Improved Initiative with a wizard, because initiative is fairly easy to boost and later circumvent via spells.

But if your expectation that you will have no time scribing scrolls is reliable, then keeping the feat does not make sense, obviously.

Phaederkiel

2013-03-25, 05:53 PM

Thanks :smalleek:

well, what other fighter feat is there to take? you can Swap your scribe scroll only with a fighter feat, is it not?

clearly, nerveskitter and later chained nerveskitter and multiple casting of heroics (imp ini) make Imp Ini somewhat less important, but still:
It is the one roll you are always going to make.

So, if you are not going to be able to trick some Metamagic on your scrolls, Imp Ini is probably better than having scrolls at all.

Malachei

2013-03-25, 05:58 PM

For a fighter feat, Martial Study comes to mind.

Phaederkiel

2013-03-25, 08:49 PM

yes, but at initiatorlvl 1/2 (and I do not even know if that gets rounded up), there is not much of the really good stuff yet.

Sure, you could use that maneuver as a gateway for a stance or a highlvl maneuver gained later, or as a way to qualify for jade phoenix mage.

And you would get one of the school skills. This can be valuable.

unfortunately, the probably best lvl1 maneuver, the one that gives a concentration check instead of a save, gives concentration as a class skill.

I always thought about learning Insightful strike with my wizard...

But a lvl in swordsage would be probably better than burning feat after feat for it.

Andion Isurand

2013-03-25, 10:59 PM

I prefer taking a Desert Wind maneuver with my wizard's Martial Study feat, so that I gain Tumble as a class skill.

Story

2013-03-25, 11:19 PM

Autopass Will Saves is available at level 1, but unfortunately, the IL rounds down.

Point Blank Shot could be useful on something like Ray of Stupidity.

Asteron

2013-03-26, 12:17 AM

just for the protocoll:

Imp Ini instead of Scribe scroll is a sweet deal, unless you specifically go and make your scrolls better. Without the metamagic shenanigans, I would have taken Imp Ini without a thought (and even with said shenanigans, i thought long and hard about keeping scribe scroll).

I just wanted to say: I was very impressed with the scrolls, and would play that way again.

I wasn't ignoring what you wrote, I just had limited time to reply at work... I'll reconsider the scroll thing, but I still don't think we will have time to scribe them. It does get to be more than 1000 gp per scroll at high levels and even at low levels I wouldn't be able to make more than a couple.

Story

2013-03-26, 12:24 AM

Scribe Scroll is useful if you ever want to go into Geometer and Loremaster. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.

Initiative is something that is useful every day. High initiative saves lives.

Flickerdart

2013-03-26, 01:09 AM

I wasn't ignoring what you wrote, I just had limited time to reply at work... I'll reconsider the scroll thing, but I still don't think we will have time to scribe them. It does get to be more than 1000 gp per scroll at high levels and even at low levels I wouldn't be able to make more than a couple.
You don't need more than a couple. Scribed scrolls aren't something you just use as extra slots. You generally scribe things you'd never prepare without foreknowledge, but when you need them, you can't wait even the 15 minutes necessary to fill a blank slot. It won't always come up, but if it ever does, you'll be glad to have it.

Phaederkiel

2013-03-26, 10:28 AM

I wasn't ignoring what you wrote, I just had limited time to reply at work... I'll reconsider the scroll thing, but I still don't think we will have time to scribe them. It does get to be more than 1000 gp per scroll at high levels and even at low levels I wouldn't be able to make more than a couple.

I was not implying that you did ignore me.

what I meant was rather:

"Normally, I always advocate having imp ini. In this special case, I advocate for something else, because it is a special case."

If you start at the lvl RHOD aims at, you will not come into the range where making a scroll costs too much time.

And in Higher lvls, it is just as flickerdart says: scrolls can save your bacon by having that single spell which you deemed too improbably needed to prepare.

Asteron

2013-03-26, 11:45 AM

I was not implying that you did ignore me.

I just wanted to make sure that you knew that since I hadn't replied to your experiences on scrolls. Didn't want to come off as the guy who asks for help then gets belligerent...

As I said, I will think on keeping the scrolls.

ericgrau

2013-03-26, 01:52 PM

Part of the decision on whether or not to keep scroll scribing depends on how stingy your DM is with purchased scrolls and treasure. It costs a little more but you can still get lots and lots of scrolls using only your pocket change. I do it on my sorcerers all the time.

For your arcane thesis spell I'd simply select your favorite spell that works with metamagic. Using empower or maximize there's Ray of enfeeblement or enervation. It's not the greatest metamagic but using widen spell there's web or a wide variety of other 10-20 foot battlefield control spells to cover more of the battlefield. Maybe even a 40 foot radius spell like sleet storm to get truly ridiculous, if you're outdoors a lot. Great way to say "See that section of the battle mat that's over 2 feet wide? I'll fight those foes later. There, now this encounter is a heck of a lot easier." Quicken works well with everything of course, but you can use arcane thesis plus a low level spell to get a good quickened spell ASAP. Web is probably the best candidate there, if not ray of enfeeblement. RoE scales better since you can empower-quicken it and it's available earlier, but web is one of the best low level spells.

Hmmm, ya I'd go for ray of enfeeblement. The others are great too, but you can bring RoE online right away then scale it up as you level using empower then quicken.

Asteron

2013-03-26, 09:27 PM

ZamielVanWeber

2013-03-26, 09:37 PM

Scribe scroll takes one day per 1000gp the scroll costs.
The price is spell lvl x caster lvl x 25. So even with some quite high spells, you will hardly come close to 1000 gp. And when you go with a lower lvl, you can still adventure half the day.

That still means anything beyond 5 is right out, 4 drops out at CL 10, and 3 at 13. Attune gem from Magic of Faerun costs far more but only takes an hour.

Malachei

2013-03-27, 03:38 AM

Here are my feat choices with and with out the fighter feat variant (we also get a learned feat when we increase an ability score at 4th level):

Without:
Lvl 1: Iron Will (Otyugh Hole not allowed)
Flaw 1: Spell Penetration
Flaw 2: Travel Devotion (I worship Oghma)
Lvl 3: Item Familiar (minus Invest Life Energy)
Learned: Spell Mastery
Wzd 5: Extend Spell

With:
Lvl 1: Iron Will (Otyugh Hole not allowed)
Ftr 1: Improved Initiative
Flaw 1: Spell Penetration
Flaw 2: Extend Spell
Lvl 3: Item Familiar (minus Invest Life Energy)
Learned: Spell Mastery
Ftr 5: Quick Draw

I'll have some time to think of what comes next. What doth the Playground and its Giants think?

Why Quick Draw? Does this give you a real advantage I may be missing? For a Fighter Feat, Martial Study can give you access to a martial maneuver you can use once per encounter (see Tome of Battle). Even Moment of the Perfect Mind might be interesting: Even though Will is your good save, in the long run, your Concentration skill should be a lot better than your Will save, plus you don't necessarily fail on a natural 1.

Spellcraft, Spellcraft, Spellcraft: As Incantatrix, the most important aspect is the highest level of spells you can Persist by taking 10. That means boosting your Spellcraft as high as possible. Because of the formula for calculating the skill DC, every three points of increase in Spellcraft means one spell level higher for you. So this is not only about getting a custom Spellcraft skill bonus item, this is about grabbing each and every little bonus you can get hold of, as long as they are stacking.

Spell Mastery & Uncanny Forethought: There are a few spells where -2 caster level really hurts (every Dispel, everything with SR, everything with level-based effects that matter). I'd try to select those for Spell Mastery/Uncanny Forethought. If, on the other hand, your DM lets you retrain Spell Mastery choice, that's fine. Otherwise, I'd take it late in the game. The INT increase alone would not be sufficient to satisfy my desire to have higher-level spells for Uncanny Forethought.

Flickerdart

2013-03-27, 08:25 AM

You'd be surprised how far quick-drawing "improvised clubs" can take you.

Asteron

2013-03-27, 11:22 AM

Why Quick Draw? Does this give you a real advantage I may be missing? For a Fighter Feat, Martial Study can give you access to a martial maneuver you can use once per encounter (see Tome of Battle). Even Moment of the Perfect Mind might be interesting: Even though Will is your good save, in the long run, your Concentration skill should be a lot better than your Will save, plus you don't necessarily fail on a natural 1.

Spellcraft, Spellcraft, Spellcraft: As Incantatrix, the most important aspect is the highest level of spells you can Persist by taking 10. That means boosting your Spellcraft as high as possible. Because of the formula for calculating the skill DC, every three points of increase in Spellcraft means one spell level higher for you. So this is not only about getting a custom Spellcraft skill bonus item, this is about grabbing each and every little bonus you can get hold of, as long as they are stacking.

Spell Mastery & Uncanny Forethought: There are a few spells where -2 caster level really hurts (every Dispel, everything with SR, everything with level-based effects that matter). I'd try to select those for Spell Mastery/Uncanny Forethought. If, on the other hand, your DM lets you retrain Spell Mastery choice, that's fine. Otherwise, I'd take it late in the game. The INT increase alone would not be sufficient to satisfy my desire to have higher-level spells for Uncanny Forethought.

Quick Draw was all about being able to have the proper think in your hands when you need it. You can't carry every thing and even a Handy Haversack eats into your actions, although it doesn't take up your standard.

Spellcraft is my most important need. I had forgotten that I was going to take Precocious Apprentice. Probably replace Spell Penetration.

When would be the optimal time to take Spell mastery and Uncanny Forethought? I never did get a good answer for that.

Nothing is set in stone since we won't start until mid-May. I don't even have my ability scores rolled yet.

Malachei

2013-03-27, 12:49 PM

Quick Draw was all about being able to have the proper think in your hands when you need it. You can't carry every thing and even a Handy Haversack eats into your actions, although it doesn't take up your standard.

Spellcraft is my most important need. I had forgotten that I was going to take Precocious Apprentice. Probably replace Spell Penetration.

When would be the optimal time to take Spell mastery and Uncanny Forethought? I never did get a good answer for that.

Nothing is set in stone since we won't start until mid-May. I don't even have my ability scores rolled yet.

Would you rather have Improved Initiative and Quickdraw or Scribe Scroll + a proper wizard feat. Personally, I'd not give a 5th-level feat for Quick Draw, however interesting improvised clubs may seem to some.

Personally, for an Incantatrix, I'd go Master Specialist for the additional +3 from Skill Focus (Spellcraft), but as you are going Domain Wizard, that is out.

Regarding the best time to take Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought: There's three ways of thinking. The first says to take it as late as possible to apply the standard action casting time and the non-reduced caster level to the most interesting spells. The second says to take it as early as possible to benefit from flexibility as soon as you can. The third says it does not matter at all, because the full-round casting time is not that bad and -2 caster level does not hurt all of your spells.

If my DM would let me retrain it, I'd take it really early. Otherwise, I'd wait until 3rd spell level at least, for Dispel Magic. Dispel Magic (or, preferably, Greater Dispel Magic) is one of the spells you'd really want in Uncanny Forethought, because you don't know when and how often you need it. I'd really hate to cast that at -2 caster level. In the past, my feat selection was too tight-packed, so it was an easy choice to postpone Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought - in my case to around level 15. I also consider selecting spells across a small spell level range a boon for Uncanny Forethought, because it means you don't have to spread open slots, thus maximizing flexibility and resource-efficiency.