Help my group's bard! (D&D 3.5)

[Tsriel]

So here's the quick rundown:

I've been DMing a F2F game for over two years now starting at level one. Of the original five that started, three remain but we added two new players a few months ago. At the times when the game started and when we added replacement players, people were brand new to not just D&D, but tabletop games in general. Needless to say, it's been rocky at times teaching them the ropes and core mechanics, but now I can say for the longstanding members, they are fully proficient in D&D 3.5. The newbies at the table have struggled abit (they did start with level 10 characters and heavy caster classes to boot, so it was expected), but they too are finally start to come into their own.

The group just completed a major event in the storyline and recieved a substancial chunk of XP, effectively jumping the average party level from 12 to 14. For my longer standing players, they absolutely know what they want to do with their levels. For the newer people, not so much. One is a druid, a class I know fairly well, so I've been giving tips and advice to her as we've continued to play. The other, being the bard in question, I give advice to whenever possible, but I haven't played a bard very much. I have a general idea on what's good and not good for a bard, but I've never made it a point to flat out optimize one.

This is sorta starting where I see the problem arise. The group bard does have his own niche in the group, albiet small. He's the group skill monkey and battlefield buffer/illusionist, both roles he's pretty good at. However, at the end of our big boss battle, he expressed the desire to be able to deal more damage (he definitely was outclassed by everyone else in the group on that account). Now to keep things fairly simple for him in the beginning, he built his bard to be a duelist with a rapier on my suggestion. The idea was he'd drop a couple group buffs and then go mix it up. He's a gnome with great charisma and dexterity, making him tough to be hit, but since he's small, his damage isn't impressive.

From experience, I know his damage isn't going to get much better by staying straight bard. The thought had occurred to me that a prestiege class would likely be in order, but I haven't the foggiest of ideas what to recommend. I'd like to find something that would clearly add to his combat abilities without sacrificing too much of what he's already good at. (:elan:'s prestiege class would be ideal, I've been debating making a 5 level clone of it just for him.)

Would anybody out there have any good suggestions?

[Juntao112]

Well, there's always Dragon Disciple...

[Tsriel]

Well, there's always Dragon Disciple...

*looks up Dragon Disciple*

Yeah, that would certainly help on damage output. I'm not certain that the bard would really like the idea to becoming a half-dragon. The immediate downside to this is that his skills would take a noticable hit. That might not be good considering he's the closest thing the party has for a reliable trap checker/dungeon delver. That will be needed as the group pushes towards the game's conclusion.

[holywhippet]

Try the sublime chord from complete arcane. It lets them cast higher level spells and draw from the wizard/sorcerer spell list. Even a few blaster spells could help.

[Mnemnosyne]

Do you allow feat retraining? If so, he could pick up dragonfire inspiration. Or just help him optimize his inspire courage better straight up. That plus to attack and damage is notable, and even better, it helps the whole group.

Sublime chord is a decent idea, but would almost certainly require retraining to qualify for due to skill requirements. Also would have been better to enter at level 11.

Consider the magic item that grants two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting. If he's using inspire courage or dragonfire inspiration to improve damage, then he just wants to hit more often.

Another option would be to dip crusader or warblade and pick up the song of the white raven feat, then immediately go into jade phoenix mage. Maneuvers will significantly improve his damage, and by going into jade phoenix mage he doesn't lose that much.

Alternately, combine some of these options. Sublime chord plus a warblade dip, add song of the white raven, and then enter jade phoenix mage, advancing sublime chord casting. This is best if you let him rebuild so he can take his warblade level before level 11, go into sublime chord at 11, and move into jade phoenix mage at 13 after picking up song of arcane power. But it can even be viable if he just takes level 13 as warblade, 14 as sublime chord, and enters JPM at 16.

[Tsriel]

Try the sublime chord from complete arcane. It lets them cast higher level spells and draw from the wizard/sorcerer spell list. Even a few blaster spells could help.

Thanks for the suggestion! I really didn't think to ask him *how* he wanted to deal more damage, but this certainly does fit the bill. I'll add it to my shortlist and find out if he wants more damage via spell or sword.

[One Step Two]

There's the feat from Frostburn called Snowflake wardance, allowing him to add his Cha to his to-hit and damage rolls. He can pick this up with Sublime chord, and be a pretty reliable gish in his own right.

[Darrin]

There's the feat from Frostburn called Snowflake wardance, allowing him to add his Cha to his to-hit and damage rolls. He can pick this up with Sublime chord, and be a pretty reliable gish in his own right.

Snowflake Wardance doesn't add Cha to damage, only to attack. It's a bit of a trap, really... it forces you into a combat style with a low damage output (one-handed slashing weapon), helps with attack, but doesn't help with damage. You can TWF with it, but that eats up all your other feats.

Take Arcane Strike instead, and you can "alpha strike" your unused spell slots in a boss battle to add both attack and bonus damage.

[Juntao112]

Bards don't get enough spellslots for Arcane Strike, though.

[Skysaber]

Crystal echoeblade from MIC p49 adds half his bard level as sonic damage on each hit it makes for like 2 grand over the +1 blade it is built on. That, and some gloves of two-weapon fighting, and he already takes a reasonable jump in damage for minimal gp investment.

Could be done on top of whatever class he takes.

[JusticeZero]

The group bard does have his own niche in the group, albiet small. He's the group skill monkey and battlefield buffer/illusionist, both roles he's pretty good at. However, at the end of our big boss battle, he expressed the desire to be able to deal more damage (he definitely was outclassed by everyone else in the group on that account).
Honestly, what he is doing is what the bard excels at. That and mucking with peoples' brains as a gamebreaking face. Him wanting to do damage in melee is similar to the wizard feeling frustrated that she didn't get to do much damage with a crossbow, or the Ranger being unhappy that they don't get to throw down some massive doomy spells like the Sorcerer does. So trying to tack on a bit of DPS may not be what he actually needs to do to be most effective. Eventually he'll get 4th level spells and be able to Dominate some villains or other and use THEM to get his DPS in. (He probably could do that with Charm Person to a certain extent. There's a reason why evil bards are so horrifying.) He can also UMD him some wands/staves of kablooey.

[Sr.medusa]

If it's damage that he wants, my money is on Crystal Echoblade too. It can work perfectly with Knowledge devotion giving him a decent damage output (1d6+3-4 for music + 5-6 for the echoblade + 2-3 for the knowledge devotion ~ 14 per hit, not bad for a secondary mele who isn't spending resources in it).

[Telonius]

Would he be open to a level of Warblade or Crusader? He'd be treated as a level 7 Initiator (assuming Bard12/Warblade1), so he'd have access up to level 4 maneuvers. Three maneuvers and a stance could net him Leading the Charge or Bolstering Voice(stance), White Raven Tactics, Battle Leader's Charge, and White Raven Strike, plus two others if he goes Crusader. It would also qualify him for Song of the White Raven and Jade Phoenix Mage.

[gorfnab]

Bard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284)
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830)
The Dragonfire Inspiration feat would up his and the groups damage output.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Seeker of the Song has massive damage output, but gives up all spellcasting advancement, so it is very much a flavor thing. Also Extra Music is mandatory for this PrC.

Stormsinger from Frostburn gives a couple of very powerful offensive bardic musics and lets you keep your spellcasting.

[Toliudar]

Has the bard invested in Use Magic Device? For those few times when he just wants to do damage, a wand of something blasty, or a runestaff that adds a blasty spell or two to his repertoire, might be enough to make him happy. With a beguiler I was playing, her options in combat were great 90% of the time, but sometimes you just need to hurt someone in order to contribute to a group effort. Even one or two direct damage spell options, even if they never reach the output of an optimized blaster, are going to be much more reliable than a low-strength character trying to reverse-engineer damage out of a rapier.

[Tsriel]

Replying randomly in no particular order:


Crystal echoeblade from MIC p49 adds half his bard level as sonic damage on each hit it makes for like 2 grand over the +1 blade it is built on. That, and some gloves of two-weapon fighting, and he already takes a reasonable jump in damage for minimal gp investment.

This is a good suggestion.

He kinda has something like the echoblade already. When he joined our group, I gave him a lump sum of gold in which to purchase gear initially. Still being brand new, he found much of it daunting. I know he's the type of guy that doesn't have a great deal of time on his hands, so I gave him the choice to either research and pick the gear he wants or I could give him a general set of gear comporable to his level. He chose the latter, so I gave him a couple stat enhancer items, armor, a ring, necklace, and the big 'wow' item, his weapon that's still used.

It's a +3 Keen Adamantine Sonic Burst Rapier that when wielded, can produce any sound effect or melody, effectively allowing him to use Bard's Songs as a free action. (Kinda OP but this is a high powered campaign.)


Has the bard invested in Use Magic Device? For those few times when he just wants to do damage, a wand of something blasty, or a runestaff that adds a blasty spell or two to his repertoire, might be enough to make him happy. With a beguiler I was playing, her options in combat were great 90% of the time, but sometimes you just need to hurt someone in order to contribute to a group effort. Even one or two direct damage spell options, even if they never reach the output of an optimized blaster, are going to be much more reliable than a low-strength character trying to reverse-engineer damage out of a rapier.

Noticed this thought was touched on a couple times. Honestly, I don't know. I've never seen him use any wands yet, but then again, wand use signifigantly trailed off when the two latest additions were added. This is because the other newbie picked druid. Soon thereafter, our longstanding barbarian met an untimely and unexpected demise so he rerolled into a sorcerer. What was once a very spellstarved group suddenly became very spell versed.


Do you allow feat retraining? If so, he could pick up dragonfire inspiration. Or just help him optimize his inspire courage better straight up. That plus to attack and damage is notable, and even better, it helps the whole group.

Sublime chord is a decent idea, but would almost certainly require retraining to qualify for due to skill requirements. Also would have been better to enter at level 11.

Consider the magic item that grants two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting. If he's using inspire courage or dragonfire inspiration to improve damage, then he just wants to hit more often.

Another option would be to dip crusader or warblade and pick up the song of the white raven feat, then immediately go into jade phoenix mage. Maneuvers will significantly improve his damage, and by going into jade phoenix mage he doesn't lose that much.

Alternately, combine some of these options. Sublime chord plus a warblade dip, add song of the white raven, and then enter jade phoenix mage, advancing sublime chord casting. This is best if you let him rebuild so he can take his warblade level before level 11, go into sublime chord at 11, and move into jade phoenix mage at 13 after picking up song of arcane power. But it can even be viable if he just takes level 13 as warblade, 14 as sublime chord, and enters JPM at 16.

I do allow feat retraining. PHB2 has guidelines for this and I often defer to that. I'm more lenient for newer players.

I did not know about a feat called Dragonfire Inspiration. It's an interesting tradeoff for Inspire Courage, but honestly I was considering ways to beef up his IC without it being overpowered as a group buff.

I've seen Sublime Chord & Bard -> Warblade dip -> Jade Phoenix Mage come up a few times on this thread. Last night I looked it over and concluded that I could make a fairly sharp pokey of a duelist. We would have to rework a few levels to get JPM become a viable option, but that's not an issue. Next session is basically storyline RP and leveling anyway. It would be the perfect time to do it.

Bard 7/Warblade 1/Sublime Chord X/Jade Phoenix Mage X looks rediculously fun. I'll have to try this build sometime. :smallbiggrin:


He'd be treated as a level 7 Initiator (assuming Bard12/Warblade1), so he'd have access up to level 4 maneuvers. Three maneuvers and a stance could net him Leading the Charge or Bolstering Voice(stance), White Raven Tactics, Battle Leader's Charge, and White Raven Strike, plus two others if he goes Crusader. It would also qualify him for Song of the White Raven and Jade Phoenix Mage.

Good suggestions for maneuvers, thanks.


Seeker of the Song has massive damage output, but gives up all spellcasting advancement, so it is very much a flavor thing. Also Extra Music is mandatory for this PrC.

Stormsinger from Frostburn gives a couple of very powerful offensive bardic musics and lets you keep your spellcasting.

I saw Seeker of the Song while going through Complete Arcane to find Sublime Chord. I thought it worthy of an option.


Bard Handbook
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook
The Dragonfire Inspiration feat would up his and the groups damage output.

Sexy. Thanks!