3.x Character Optimization

[Everynone]

So my friends and I recently started a new, PC heavy campaign. This will be my second, so im fairly new to D&D.

In my last campaign, I started with a Ranger3/Rogue3 build, but then convinced the DM to let me rebuild him as a Ranger6. I got him up to Ranger8.

Then we started this campaign, where im playing a Cleric15 (party leader) and a Monk15, in an imitation of Hordes of the Underdark using the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook.

Basically, I have no experience in optimization of any sort. Because of this, I also know that my characters are almost certainly suboptimal. But I also know that there is plenty of room for improvement, and my DM is somewhat lenient with rebuilding characters early on in a campaign. So to any great optimizers out there, please help.

[Phelix-Mu]

In before Unarmed Swordsage 15.

EDIT: But, more seriously, Monk 15 is going to garner a whole heap of advice. Monk, while being my second favorite class, is not a good class optimization-wise. In fact, it's terrible. If you want it to be a monk, then restrict yourself to 2 or 6 levels and then prestige or multiclass out of it. Alternatively, if the DM is open to homebrew, search for some; the fixes for monk are legion, and some of them are quite promising (beware homebrew...make sure your DM vets it if you lack experience, for cool-looking is not always, in fact, cool).

Monk is a good multiclass option, though, since a lot of the actual good points of the class are front-loaded (like the bonus feats) and the all good saves can be a nice thing to add onto any build.

[Renen]

i bet 10g that the next post will ask you for your CURRENT bulild

[Everynone]

@Renen: Haha ya, I was expecting that at some point too.
@Phelix-Mu: I looked at Swordsage, and I know it to be a ultra-viable Monk alternative, but I looked at in the sourcebook, and I couldnt figure out how it would apply in unarmed combat.

[Urpriest]

Like any optimization situation, the first question is: what are you going for? What are your goals? What is each character supposed to do? What are the constraints?

In general, Monk is a relatively weak class unless you're good at optimizing it. If the goal in picking Monk is to be a martial artist with a few supernatural abilities, Swordsage (Tome of Battle) is a good pick. If you simply wanted a character who punches people a lot, there are ways to make a fairly effective unarmed barbarian. Both of these will certainly be covered by later posters, so I'll mostly just suggest that you seriously consider why you picked Monk before listening to their advice.

Cleric doesn't give you much in the way of class features, so it's designed with Prestige Classes in mind. What Prestige Classes you take will be based on your deity and what you want the Cleric to specialize in. Clerics can do just about anything, from utility and support casting to blasting and battlefield control to melee combat to archery. What do you want your Cleric to be good at?

Edit:

@Renen: Haha ya, I was expecting that at some point too.
@Phelix-Mu: I looked at Swordsage, and I know it to be a ultra-viable Monk alternative, but I looked at in the sourcebook, and I couldnt figure out how it would apply in unarmed combat.

There is a variant called Unarmed Swordsage, later in the class description. They get the Unarmed Strike ability of a Monk. The variant is a bit vague and requires some DM adjudication, but if you don't get to use it the normal Swordsage is still viable, just take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike (and maybe Snap Kick).

[Phelix-Mu]

@Renen: Haha ya, I was expecting that at some point too.
@Phelix-Mu: I looked at Swordsage, and I know it to be a ultra-viable Monk alternative, but I looked at in the sourcebook, and I couldnt figure out how it would apply in unarmed combat.

At the end of the class features section of swordsage is a section titled "Adaptation." It gives a brief blurb that would allow the DM to use the swordsage core to create a kind of Monk 2.0, an unarmed fighter with access to the Tome of Battle maneuvers. Sadly, the little blurb is, like many footnotes in D&D, poorly written, if well-intentioned.

EDIT: Ninja'd, quite appropriately, unarmed swordsaged by the honorable Urpriest.:smallbiggrin:

[Everynone]

Because my DM allowed me to play two characters, I choose the Cleric (LG half-elven follower of Lathander) as my power character (the one who actually gets stuff done). His domains are Strength & Sun, and because its Hordes of the Underdark, hes supposed to be really good at killing undead and healing/warding/buffing, that kinda thing. Basic cleric, minus alot of the melee. I looked at the Shadowstriker (C.Champion) PrC to this end, as well as the Mythic Exemplar (C.Champion), because he's supposed to have some god-blood in him, as well as the blood of some long-dead powerful cleric.

The monk (LG human follower of Lathander) was supposed to be a complimentary but much less powerful character that I made just play for fun. Even though theyre really weak, I do like the monk class simply because they seem unique to me (although i havnt browsed the Complete series as much id like to to find classes similar to it). I thought about taking the Squire of Legend (C.Champion) Prc to compliment the Cleric, as well as the Nightsong Enforcer (C.Adventurer) to make up for the lack of a party rogue.

@Phelix-Mu: I did not notice that Adaptation blurb, but now that you mentioned it, I did find it. I have the Tome of Battle OEF, would it be copyright infringement if I just posted up only that blurb?

[Gavinfoxx]

What sources are legal for this game?

[Urpriest]

In Faerun, Radiant Servant of Pelor would probably become Radiant Servant of Lathander. It's a decent PrC, and would probably shine in an Undead campaign.

[Everynone]

What sources are legal for this game?

Basically any that are official publications, that the DM looks over and approves. So that leaves open alotta things, but hes not a fan of super-obscure sourcebooks. He has this story about a blind monk with a really weird prc that kicked everyone elses butts...anyways, almost anything.

[Phelix-Mu]

I have the Tome of Battle OEF, would it be copyright infringement if I just posted up only that blurb?

Well, be careful. Some WotC material is open-gaming license (postable, I hope), and some is not. Determining which is which requires looking at small print on the first or second page of the book, and that is awfully sketchy by my tastes. Paraphrasing is kosher, of course, and it was a fairly short blurb. Normally, the Djinn of All-RAW is summoned by paraphrasing rules text, but since this isn't actual rules text, go for it, especially if there is some word or phrase that is confusing you.

[Everynone]

In Faerun, Radiant Servant of Pelor would probably become Radiant Servant of Lathander. It's a decent PrC, and would probably shine in an Undead campaign.

I actually did notice that PrC while I was browsing, and it looks great, but it requires (besides worshipping Pelor) a NG alignment (hes LG), 5 ranks in Heal (something I figured the Cleric wouldnt need whatwith spontaneous Cure Critical), and the Extra Turning Feat (everything not mentioned as a requirement is something the character already has). So it seems like a hard class to get, at least to me, even though it looks worth it.


Well, be careful. Some WotC material is open-gaming license (postable, I hope), and some is not. Determining which is which requires looking at small print on the first or second page of the book, and that is awfully sketchy by my tastes. Paraphrasing is kosher, of course, and it was a fairly short blurb. Normally, the Djinn of All-RAW is summoned by paraphrasing rules text, but since this isn't actual rules text, go for it, especially if there is some word or phrase that is confusing you.

I cut out the second half of the blurb, because it seems to apply only to arcane casters. Here goes:

"ADAPTATION
The name “swordsage” naturally implies a character who carries a sword or weapon of some kind. However, a swordsage works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost any school or origin. To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

I understand what it's saying, but to be completely honest, I dont see how it makes Monk6/Swordsage15 (a common build, i think) any better than Monk20+. But I must be missing something, because thats what everyone says.

[Urpriest]

I actually did notice that PrC while I was browsing, and it looks great, but it requires (besides worshipping Pelor) a NG alignment (hes LG), 5 ranks in Heal (something I figured the Cleric wouldnt need whatwith spontaneous Cure Critical), and the Extra Turning Feat (everything not mentioned as a requirement is something the character already has). So it seems like a hard class to get, at least to me, even though it looks worth it.

Extra Turning is nice in an Undead campaign, either for actual extra turn attempts or in conjunction with Divine Metamagic. 5 ranks in Heal is not very many, you can grab that in two levels. And while the class requires NG, that's because Pelor is NG. If it's converted to Lathander, the alignment should probably be changed to LG.




I cut out the second half of the blurb, because it seems to apply only to arcane casters. Here goes:

"ADAPTATION
The name “swordsage” naturally implies a character who carries a sword or weapon of some kind. However, a swordsage works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost any school or origin. To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

I understand what it's saying, but to be completely honest, I dont see how it makes Monk6/Swordsage15 (a common build, i think) any better than Monk20+. But I must be missing something, because thats what everyone says.

The adaptation makes you able to hit things unarmed with the same damage as the Monk. It's the maneuvers that make you better than the Monk, since they're straightforwardly better than what the Monk gets.

[Juntao112]

I understand what it's saying, but to be completely honest, I dont see how it makes Monk6/Swordsage15 (a common build, i think) any better than Monk20+. But I must be missing something, because thats what everyone says.
General rule of thumb, the fewer monk levels in your build the better :smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

I actually did notice that PrC while I was browsing, and it looks great, but it requires (besides worshipping Pelor) a NG alignment (hes LG), 5 ranks in Heal (something I figured the Cleric wouldnt need whatwith spontaneous Cure Critical), and the Extra Turning Feat (everything not mentioned as a requirement is something the character already has). So it seems like a hard class to get, at least to me, even though it looks worth it.



I cut out the second half of the blurb, because it seems to apply only to arcane casters. Here goes:

"ADAPTATION
The name “swordsage” naturally implies a character who carries a sword or weapon of some kind. However, a swordsage works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost any school or origin. To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

I understand what it's saying, but to be completely honest, I dont see how it makes Monk6/Swordsage15 (a common build, i think) any better than Monk20+. But I must be missing something, because thats what everyone says.

So, the consensus here is that monk abilities are poorly conceived and not good. A short list includes.

Wholeness of Body (multiple uses strong, totally, incredibly terrible total cured, though...40 hp of curing at level 20? How is that a good class feature? It also seems to use a standard action to do it....:smallmad:)

Abundant Step (useful, but once/day at terrible caster level, not so useful...also, it's very late in the game once it shows up, as dimension door was available to casters at 7th level).

Purity of Body (so useless it's barely worth describing...mundane diseases are virtually not a thing in D&D, and magical disease immunity would be only marginally better, as many DMs don't use that much, either).

Diamond Soul (Spell Resistance is good, but it takes a full-round action to lower it whenever you want to be healed...not cool...I think it than takes another full-round action to raise it?...truly a double-edged sword).

Quivering Palm (no class should give an ability measured in uses/week...just annoying, and 1/week is silly, especially considering limitations of the ability).

Anyway, the list goes on, but take a gander at some of the maneuvers in ToB...they stand to be 100% more useful. Plus, there are maneuvers that make up for all of the cool stuff you miss (minus the SR). I particularly like Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, but Setting Sun is another cool option.

EDIT: and a note on monk 20+. Seriously, I don't understand how they take away progression of any coolness monk has and then replace it with so few epic monk bonus feats. Terrible, talk to the DM, as this is a bit of a travesty, especially if you somehow managed to suffer through 20 levels of monk. Damage should continue to increase, btw....ahhh...*pulling hair out*

[Everynone]

Extra Turning is nice in an Undead campaign, either for actual extra turn attempts or in conjunction with Divine Metamagic. 5 ranks in Heal is not very many, you can grab that in two levels. And while the class requires NG, that's because Pelor is NG. If it's converted to Lathander, the alignment should probably be changed to LG.

Lathander is actually NG as well...the Cleric wouldve been also, but I wanted him to be the same alignement as the Monk, and the Monk needed to be lawful, and the Cleric needed to be good, so...LG.



adaptation makes you able to hit things unarmed with the same damage as the Monk. It's the maneuvers that make you better than the Monk, since they're straightforwardly better than what the Monk gets.

Hmm...I see the BAB is just as 3/4 crappy. Do you think the unarmed progression applies to Flurry of Blows as well? Unless Swordsage offers something comparable to it specifically, id think thats kinda necessary.

[Karnith]

Hmm...I see the BAB is just as 3/4 crappy. Do you think the unarmed progression applies to Flurry of Blows as well? Unless Swordsage offers something comparable to it specifically, id think thats kinda necessary.
It does not (though it's an adaptation, so you should probably consult your DM about it, not us). But being a Swordsage offers you Tiger Claw maneuvers, several of which replicate the extra attacks you would get from flurry of blows. I should note that flurry of blows is not terribly good, so it's not a big deal if you lose it anyway. Swordsage maneuvers are pretty amazing, after all.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm...I see the BAB is just as 3/4 crappy. Do you think the unarmed progression applies to Flurry of Blows as well? Unless Swordsage offers something comparable to it specifically, id think thats kinda necessary.

Consensus is no, but ask your DM, since final form of unarmed swordsage will be something of a homebrew hybrid.

The consolation is that flurry of blows is bad until 9th, not good until 12th, and generally can be replicated by other stuff, but better. Finally, most maneuvers give damaging strikes that take a standard action to use, so less flurrying. A good reason to trade out flurry of blows, in any case.

[Greenish]

Unless Swordsage offers something comparable to it specifically, id think thats kinda necessary.Snap Kick. Flashing Sun. Dancing/Raging Mongoose.

[Phelix-Mu]

Snap Kick. Flashing Sun. Dancing/Raging Mongoose.

Strictly speaking, Snap Kick is not a feature of swordsage. But this point generally stands. Swordsage has access to most of the cool in ToB, and there is quite a bit in there.

Also worth looking at, a one or two level dip in the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class from ToB would add a lot of flavor to a monk-ish sidekick of a cleric of Lathander. I'm starting to like that duo, in any case.:smallsmile:

[Everynone]

Consensus is no, but ask your DM, since final form of unarmed swordsage will be something of a homebrew hybrid.

The consolation is that flurry of blows is bad until 9th, not good until 12th, and generally can be replicated by other stuff, but better. Finally, most maneuvers give damaging strikes that take a standard action to use, so less flurrying. A good reason to trade out flurry of blows, in any case.


It does not (though it's an adaptation, so you should probably consult your DM about it, not us). But being a Swordsage offers you Tiger Claw maneuvers, several of which replicate the extra attacks you would get from flurry of blows. I should note that flurry of blows is not terribly good, so it's not a big deal if you lose it anyway. Swordsage maneuvers are pretty amazing, after all.

I guess if Flurry of Blows is really as inferior to the maneuvers as it appears to be, then I guess id be willing to forego it. However, I cannot find descriptions of the maneuvers anywhere. Also, I dont understand the whole 'expend a maneuver' thing...hypothetically speaking, if maneuvers were like spells, would a Swordsage be a Wizard, a Sorcerer, or a Warlock?

Also, I think I mentioned earlier the Nightsong Enforcer PrC...does anyone have any experience with it? Its the only class Ive found as a viable Monk drop-in that emulates a Rogue (and we REALLY need a Rogue, but I believe we might rescue one later on).

[Greenish]

However, I cannot find descriptions of the maneuvers anywhere.Maneuvers are in Chapter 4.


Also, I dont understand the whole 'expend a maneuver' thing...hypothetically speaking, if maneuvers were like spells, would a Swordsage be a Wizard, a Sorcerer, or a Warlock?Sorcerer. You have fixed amount known, but more than any other initiator.


Also, I think I mentioned earlier the Nightsong Enforcer PrC...does anyone have any experience with it? Its the only class Ive found as a viable Monk drop-in that emulates a Rogue (and we REALLY need a Rogue, but I believe we might rescue one later on).No one really needs a rogue, and Nightsong Enforcer is rather meh. Bit of SA, minor situational bonuses, /yawn.

[Everynone]

Sorcerer. You have fixed amount known, but more than any other initiator.

Do you only get to use a certain amount per day then?


one really needs a rogue, and Nightsong Enforcer is rather meh. Bit of SA, minor situational bonuses, /yawn.

My DM says we'll almost certainly need a Rogue, because itll be like a campaign-long dungeon-delve. (And what is SA?)

Also, feats. I need to know what feats are ideal for both characters. Im not really familiar with any of the feats outside of the Core rules, and I suck at choosing them. I see correct feats as the start of optimization.

[Phelix-Mu]

Do you only get to use a certain amount per day then?



My DM says we'll almost certainly need a Rogue, because itll be like a campaign-long dungeon-delve. (And what is SA?)

Also, feats. I need to know what feats are ideal for both characters. Im not really familiar with any of the feats outside of the Core rules, and I suck at choosing them. I see correct feats as the start of optimization.

1.) Maneuvers refresh after the end of every encounter. Outside of combat, you can use them as often as you want (by my understanding). Clearly, some of the ones that are just about attacking have practically no out-of-combat use, but other maneuvers, like the Shadow Jaunt line, are spectacularly useful (essentially at will 50' non-magical teleport within line of sight...honestly, I think the coolest thing in ToB).

2.) SA is sneak attack. There are tricks involving other classes that make rogues all but irrelevant, and I don't much approve of them, but they do allow short-handed parties to cope with lack of skillmonkey and trap finding. The most common trap finder that I hear about is the Summon Elemental reserve feat from Complete Mage, which basically allows your spellcaster to summon one elemental at a time an unlimited number of times per day. So, summon elemental, send it to check for traps by stomping around, moving around within range, and otherwise drawing fire from any hidden gizmos. Once you know where a trap is, blocking/destroying/moving past it is not that hard at the level you will be at.

3.) The feats discussion is a long one. Selection depends heavily on role in combat, desired out-of-combat utility, favorite tactics, and optimization level of the campaign.

If the DM is okay with it, you might as well use Divine Metamagic to use metamagic cheaply. Divine Metamagic Persist is pretty high-op, though, but a very powerful tool for a cleric. Basically, the strategy is to, at the start of the day, burn turn undead attempts to power the Persist Spell metamagic feat, which allows the spell that you use it on to last for 24 hours. Thus, Persist Spell on haste spell gives everyone in the party (and then some) haste that lasts 24 hours. That isn't the best example (since haste is probably not on your spell list), but the limits of this tactic are quite powerful, as it means the cleric doesn't have to waste time at the start of every fight casting short-term buffs, since those buffs are already active. Thus, more time to focus on combat or healing.

The feats required for that tactic are Divine Metamagic, Extend Spell, and Persist Spell. You'll want to back it up with Extra Turning, and possibly a little level/domain fishing for quasi-turn attempts (the various turn elemental, turn plants, etc...this is something to ask the DM about if you intend to try it).

As for the monk, Stunning Fist can be a powerful tactic if used properly (Pain Touch, Pharaoh's Fist, etc), but if the campaign features undead, it's decidedly less useful.

I um...let's see. Google "Dictum Mortuum monk guide 3.5". I used this resource, and it is quite good. There are various other monk guides/handbooks, and I'm sure others may link to them. Also, if you want swordsage help (you probably should), google "Giant in the Playground RFLS swordsage handbook." I think this one is what I used. It's 90% done, and has the maneuvers ranked by usefulness, with some good suggestions for synergy, feat selection, skill selection.

[Greenish]

My DM says we'll almost certainly need a Rogue, because itll be like a campaign-long dungeon-delve. (And what is SA?)SA stands for Sneak Attack, basically the only rogue-like thing the PrC does. When your DM says you need a rogue, what he means is that you need to deal with traps.

Lots of classes can do that, including cleric: take the feat Planar Touchstone (Planar Handbook) set to Catalogues of Enlightenment, which allows you to pick any domain power, select Kobold domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Other classes that get Trapfinding: barbarian, beguiler, ranger, ninja, scout, artificer, factotum, incarnate, and a bunch of PrCs.

[Everynone]

SA stands for Sneak Attack, basically the only rogue-like thing the PrC does. When your DM says you need a rogue, what he means is that you need to deal with traps.

Lots of classes can do that, including cleric: take the feat Planar Touchstone (Planar Handbook) set to Catalogues of Enlightenment, which allows you to pick any domain power, select Kobold domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Other classes that get Trapfinding: barbarian, beguiler, ranger, ninja, scout, artificer, factotum, incarnate, and a bunch of PrCs.

So what do you recommend I take for the Monk? If we dont end up with a rogue, im almost set on him gaining search (trapfinding), disable device, open lock, and possibly some form of sneak attack. As a monk, he already has evasion, so uncanny dodge would be nice...

@Phelix-Mu: Im not even gona quote that its so long, but thanks for the extremely helpful post.

In regards to the monk, he currently has: Stunning Fist (Monk bonus), Weapon Finesse (1st), Weapon Focus (unarmed strike, Human bonus), Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus), Improved Critical (3rd), Deflect Arrows (Monk bonus, in place of Improved Trip or Disarm), Improved Initiative (6th), Blind-Fight (9th), Improved Grapple (12th), and Toughness (15th, we used a modified version that basically gives you +1 Con bonus for the purposes of calculating HP). Am I missing anything outside of the Core that I should respec?

In regards to the Cleric, he has: Spell Focus (Evocation, 1st), Greater Spell Focus (" ", 3rd), Spell Penetration (6th), Greater Spell Penetration (9th), Improved Initiative (12th), and Lightning Reflexes (15th). Same question: is there respecing necessary for rules outside the Core? I didnt include any metamagic feats because...ehm...I didnt know how to use them at the time. I had never played a caster class.

EDIT: I should also note that the other party member is a Warlock. His player decided to forego a second character for reasons I cannot understand. So now you understand a little better where our party stands mechanically. And for party dynamics...hes a NE water genasi, whos also a follower of [facepalm] Loviatar. So theres something of a party split, as you might be able to imagine. But he did save the Monk's hide on one occasion with a well-placed Eldritch Spear through the heart of one particulary mean Drow Cleric, so character wise, they work together alright.

[Greenish]

So what do you recommend I take for the Monk?Swordsage.

[Everynone]

Swordsage.

(...I had meant feats, but classes work also...)
So how many levels of that, with Monk15 currently? And how many levels of Shadow Sun Ninja, if that seems like a good idea?

[Karnith]

In regards to the monk, he currently has: Stunning Fist (Monk bonus), Weapon Finesse (1st), Weapon Focus (unarmed strike, Human bonus), Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus), Improved Critical (3rd), Deflect Arrows (Monk bonus, in place of Improved Trip or Disarm), Improved Initiative (6th), Blind-Fight (9th), Improved Grapple (12th), and Toughness (15th, we used a modified version that basically gives you +1 Con bonus for the purposes of calculating HP). Am I missing anything outside of the Core that I should respec?
Some problems with your feat list: A monk doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus at level 1 (because he lacks the requisite +1 BAB for both feats). Nor does he qualify for Improved Critical at level 3 (requires BAB +8). You can just shuffle around the levels at which you get the feats to fix this, though.

Outside of Core, you might consider Superior Unarmed Strike (in the Tome of Battle) for a feat, though.

[Greenish]

So how many levels of that, with Monk15 currently?15, if you can rebuild.

Feats: Imp. Initiative, Imp. Natural Weapon, Snap Kick, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style(!)…

[Everynone]

Some problems with your feat list: A monk doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus at level 1 (because he lacks the requisite +1 BAB for both feats). Nor does he qualify for Improved Critical at level 3 (requires BAB +8). You can just shuffle around the levels at which you get the feats to fix this, though.

Great, I'll shuffle them. Thanks for pointing that out; even my DM didnt catch that, and hes always on those little mistakes.


Outside of Core, you might consider Superior Unarmed Strike (in the Tome of Battle) for a feat, though.

Ohhh, I think I understand this one. It's meant to replace a Monk's unarmed damage progression?


15, if you can rebuild.

Id like to keep at least some levels of Monk, simply because SSNinja allows for basic Monk progression to continue, whatwith Flurry penalty reductions, AC bonuses, speed bonuses, Stunning Fist uses, and unarmed damage. Without monk levels, you only get AC bonuses and Stunning Fist uses, if I'm reading it correctly. But no 'specials' from monk in either case. So maybe 1, 2, or 6 level dip? Those are the most common numbers I hear for Monk dips.


Feats: Imp. Initiative, Imp. Natural Weapon, Snap Kick, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style(!)…

So I'd give up Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Blind-Fight, Improved Grapple, and Toughness. Id like to hold onto Blind-Fight if possible, because...well, its the Underdark (unless I'm mistaken on the kinda encounters we might be engaging in). And is Toughness necessary with a Con of 16 and a d8 HD? I thought it was, especially with the homebrewed version we're using. But other than that, are all these feats out of the ToB?

[Karnith]

Ohhh, I think I understand this one. It's meant to replace a Monk's unarmed damage progression?
It does so for characters without monk levels (or, if you're going for an unarmed swordsage, monk-equivalent levels); for monks it simply makes you deal unarmed damage as though you were a monk four levels higher. It's generally a good investment for non-monk unarmed builds (like a punch-barian), and it's also not bad for those builds with only a few levels of monk in them.

[Everynone]

It does so for characters without monk levels (or, if you're going for an unarmed swordsage, monk-equivalent levels); for monks it simply makes you deal unarmed damage as though you were a monk four levels higher. It's generally a good investment for non-monk unarmed builds (like a punch-barian), and it's also not bad for those builds with only a few levels of monk in them.

So basically, if you're unarmed, it's just plain an all-around good idea? I love feats like that... :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

PHB II has retraining rules... you could consider perhaps retraining your levels?

Here's a chat thing that I generally show people who wanna make unarmed combatants


What happened was that WotC really dropped the ball when they made the Monk. So much that they wrote several ways of doing things that can be considered 'Monk v.2.0'. Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:

1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the character class, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.

2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too.

3.) (Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]), Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Those are the core changes and acf's of the barbarian class to make it more monk-like. Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary --it helps--, so you can take it or not as you want. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike; note that you need DM permission for this one), Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic). In fact, any of these builds could maybe use those items!

4.) Monk 2/Mystic/Sacred Fist. This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in complete divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape (like pearl of speech, magic item compendium), and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps, Magic Item Compendium or taking it off and putting it on with help, after you shape, etc.). There are a few other 'sets' of ACF's that can work fairly well with monk, but the loadouts tend to be pretty focused in one concept or another.

[Everynone]

PHB II has retraining rules... you could consider perhaps retraining your levels?

Okay so I talked to my DM and...he wont let me retrain or rebuild the Monk's class levels. He might let me reselect feats and retrain skills though. Same with the Cleric. He also says there is a max of 3 classes on any given character , including PrCs (not including multiclass penalties). So if I could get some help with that, that'd be great. But besides that, theres nothing else I can do. (Thanks for the Swordsage recommendations, everyone. I hadnt paid alot of attention to the mechanics of that class before, but it looks really fun).

[Gavinfoxx]

Can you retrain from a normal monk to one with a huge amount of alternative class features?? Like the aforementioned Wild Monk?

What do you think of the other ways of doing unarmed characters that I mentioned?

[Everynone]

Can you retrain from a normal monk to one with a huge amount of alternative class features?? Like the aforementioned Wild Monk?

Nope, he wont let me retrain any levels as another level of another class. So I couldnt rebuild him as anything other than a Monk 15, at this point.


What do you think of the other ways of doing unarmed characters that I mentioned?

My DMs reasoning is thus: our party is in the Underdark. I can retrain, but it would take in-game months to redo a large amount of prior 'adventuring' (these characters have never actually been used before this campaign, but in-game, theyre semi-famous, whatwith 15th level characters and all). So, as my DM says, I could retrain, but by the time I was done and tried to return to the surface, the Drow will have taken over Waterdeep.

So to answer your question, I probably couldn't rebuild his class features either, to be honest. The only thing I see as a possibility is redoing feats and skills, and maybe some minor changes to base stats. Sorry guys.

EDIT: He's also a big fan of Monks. He sees them more as a Tier 3 class than a Tier 5 class. I havnt played long enough to see who I agree with more, but I think the general consensus leans towards T5.

[Gavinfoxx]

That's what I am saying. Stay a Monk 15, but just be a different type of Monk 15. Hence the use of 'Alternative Class Features' rather than 'A Different Class'. Make sense?

And just describe it as the magical radiation that is ever-present in the Underdark radically changes you in a single, traumatic event. Work with him to describe that event...

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?&topic=2902

Or... you know.. you could always kill the character?

Also, you should look at this. This character is Totally a Monk. Who just happens to be a Barbarian.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=408878

[Everynone]

That's what I am saying. Stay a Monk 15, but just be a different type of Monk 15. Hence the use of 'Alternative Class Features' rather than 'A Different Class'. Make sense?

Yes it does, and it's a great idea, but I dont think the DM will let the character off with anything other than the class features he already has from Monk 15.


And just describe it as the magical radiation that is ever-present in the Underdark radically changes you in a single, traumatic event. Work with him to describe that event...

Ha, that actually might be clever enough to get him to laugh enough to agree with me. I'll try it.


Or... you know.. you could always kill the character?

That...is a surprisingly good idea. We do have a Rod of Resurrection and a Cleric though, so if I decided that that was the best option, Id havta be clever about how I kill him off. Also, Id havta get the DMs take on whether or not I could rebuild an entirely new character in place of him (say, a total-optimized Wizard :smallwink:), or just be limited to the Cleric.

[Gavinfoxx]

You could just have him not return. Just saying... Resurrection doesn't return unwilling souls.

[Everynone]

You could just have him not return. Just saying... Resurrection doesn't return unwilling souls.

Oh ya, good point. And the Rod is designed to show a CG Priestess doing the Resurrecting. But the Monk would know whos really behind it...also, Id rather not waste the charge on the Rod. This all assuming the DM lets me build a another character to replace him, of course. But Id rather avoid that, if possible.

Ive already listed what feats he had earlier, but the replacement feats that were recommended were in response to the Swordsage rebuild. And I never really got recommended replacement feats for the Cleric.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, read that monk handbook...

It lists good feats!

Also there are good feats in the Cleric Handbook

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238

Also, if you get the Wild Monk (which basically bumps a Monk up to Tier 3 pretty much by itself...)

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940

http://web.archive.org/web/20080214233434/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-404381

Dragon Wild Shape, woooo!!!

[Everynone]

Well, read that monk handbook...

It lists good feats!

What handbook is this?

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?&topic=2902


Ahem... I linked to it a few posts ago?

And... the feats you want depend HEAVILY on what ACF's you can get. If you can get Wild Monk, for example, that dramatically changes what feats you want...