Review my Druid please - first time high level start

[ddude987]

Hello all,
I will be partaking in a campaign starting at level 18 and going through level 40. The goal of the campaign is to ascend into divinity, which will happen sometime around level 30. Until then, we will be regular adventurers. The party will probably consist of a low-mid level of optimization. My plan is to enter Master of Many Forms at level 21. Epic spellcasting is not allowed.
I would really like if you all would look over my Druid for me. I spent a lot of hours on it, and I know people say Druid is pre-optimized but I feel as though what I have still isn't there yet. Thanks!

Race: Jungle Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Template: Saint (This was for rp and backstory and then I found out it was amazing)

10/14/16/16/18/14 :: Stats before racial, inherent and item
6/16/16/19/21/17 :: Stats after racial and age
6/16/18/19/37/21 :: Final stats (items and inherent)

Class: 1 Cloistered Cleric/17 Druid (LA buyoff was a go)
Domains: Knowledge (traded), Planning, Time
Deity: Chronepsis
Feats:
01 - Dragonwrought Bonus: Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell
03 - Persistent Spell
06 - Leadership (DM requires to gain followers for ascension)
09 - Natural Spell
12 - Dragon Wild Shape
15 - Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
18 - Frozen Wild Shape (Ocular Spell instead?)

Gear:
+1 Dagger Mouthpick Sizing Spellblade (Greater Dispel Magic)

Cloak of Displacment 24k
Favor of the Martyr (Neck, Continuous) +6 Wis - 112k + 36k
Circlet of Persuasion - 4.5k
Monk's Belt - 13k
Bracer's of Armor +1 Soulfire (DM okay'd) - 25k

+10 Ring of Diplomacy - 10k
Ring of the Beast - 8k

Hand Haversack - 2k
Pearl of Power lvl 6 - 36k
Rod of Extend - 11k
Staff of Twin Repeat Wish (0 Charges) - 27k <- Is how I got 4 inherent on Wis
Nightstick x5 - 37.5k
Pearl of Speech - 600 gp
Wildling Clasp x5 - 20k (On Weapon, Neck, Shoulder, Waist, Arms)

49,000 gp (about) left

Persisting/Extending:
Superior Resistance (Extend)
Energy Immunity (Extend)
Sheltered Vitality (Persist)
Freedom of Movement (Persist)
Bit of the Werebear (Persist)

Also help with better spells to persist if you can think of any. Thanks to everyone who read this and suggested things and helped out!

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are some things i'd do differently, but it's your char. Take what you like, disregard the rest :smallsmile:

- replace Frozen Wild shape with Dragon Wild shape. I prefer DWs for the versatility and utility it provides.

- drop the Ring of Negative Protection. For the same price, get Bracers of Armor +1 with Soulfire (BoED)

- drop the armor. Buy a Pearl of Power 1(3). Get your mage to cast Mage Armor (greater) on you instead.

- The Belt of Magnificence. Do you need the Bonus to ALL stats? Get a Monks Belt instead, add +6 Con per MIC rules, add +6 WIS to your neck slot, save about 17,000gp

-By the time you get epic, what does MoMF give you that you don't already have? I'd go with more CL. Maybe add 3 levels of Wizard and go into Arcane Hierophant.

- unless you spend all your time in WS, get a Quarterstaff with Warning on it.
If money permits, get an Elvencraft Longbow, enchant the staff part with useful passives, put Seeking on the bow and get a bunch of arrows of spell storing.

- Find some way to get Mind Blank

That's all for now.

[ddude987]

There are some things i'd do differently, but it's your char. Take what you like, disregard the rest :smallsmile:

- replace Frozen Wild shape with Dragon Wild shape. I prefer DWs for the versatility and utility it provides.

- drop the Ring of Negative Protection. For the same price, get Bracers of Armor +1 with Soulfire (BoED)

- drop the armor. Buy a Pearl of Power 1(3). Get your mage to cast Mage Armor (greater) on you instead.

- The Belt of Magnificence. Do you need the Bonus to ALL stats? Get a Monks Belt instead, add +6 Con per MIC rules, add +6 WIS to your neck slot, save about 17,000gp

-By the time you get epic, what does MoMF give you that you don't already have? I'd go with more CL. Maybe add 3 levels of Wizard and go into Arcane Hierophant.

- unless you spend all your time in WS, get a Quarterstaff with Warning on it.
If money permits, get an Elvencraft Longbow, enchant the staff part with useful passives, put Seeking on the bow and get a bunch of arrows of spell storing.

- Find some way to get Mind Blank

That's all for now.

Thanks for the advice. The Belt is because it bumps my physicals in wild shape. I was going for more of a wildshaped focus. Persist buffs and then turn into something crazy. What do you like about DragonWildshape? I couldn't find any advantages from a small medium dragon as most of them have sla's for their best abilities. Suggestions for DWs?
Thanks for the pearl of power Mage armor idea! I was thinking of making my cohort a arcane caster. I didn't realize you could do that with the bracers of armor. Soulfire would replace the need for the persisted sheltered vitality. Mind blank is my next item... the third eye that provides it.

edit: Also what spells would be good in the bow?

[sleepyphoenixx]

The thing about Dragon Wild shape is that the Dragons in the SRD generally suck. There is a listing of good DWs forms here. (http://web.archive.org/web/20080919131238/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-404381) Take a look, see if you find something you like :smallwink:
Some of my favorites are Steel Dragon (combined with Venomfire for a massively nasty breath weapon), Shadow Dragon (negative levels BW) and Song Dragon (permanent Tongues and True Seeing).
The thing is, there's a dragon shape with every kind of damage imaginable as a breath weapon, along with the corresponding immunities.
You also get Humanoid Wild Shape per some dragons Alternate Form ability, along with great senses, fast flight, innate spell resistance and some useful abilites (Spider Climb, Icewalking, Cloudwalking, Water Breathing, Sound Imitation, DR, Freedom of Movement, Rusting Grasp, etc.).
If your group allows OA material, Lung Dragons get permanent Detect Thoughts and at will Invisibility. Gem Dragons get Planar Travel.
If you get a way to increase your size they even make great meleers with a good number of natural attacks and high natural AC.

There are very very few feats that give THAT many options.

As for the Belt: You already get a strength bonus from your persisted Bite of the Werebear. There's spells that give enhancement boni to the other stats too.
The only one you really need on an item is wisdom because you won't get bonus spells otherwise. Constitution is nice too because that's one you generally don't want dispelled, but it's not that crucial.

For the Bow, i usually keep a selection of useful spells around on spell storing arrows. Poison, Shivering Touch (get your Cleric/Mage to contribute during downtime), Touch of Idiocy, Ray of Enfeeblement, Faerie Fire, extended Creeping Cold, Crumble, Dessicate, Earthbind are all situationally useful. It's especially useful with touch spells, but considering that a spell storing arrow costs a mere 160gp you can afford to keep around some variety.

For weapon enhancements, look into warning, defending, spellblade and smoking, but everything besides warning is only worth it if you actually wield the weapon in battle.

[ddude987]

The thing about Dragon Wild shape is that the Dragons in the SRD generally suck. There is a listing of good DWs forms here. (http://web.archive.org/web/20080919131238/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-404381) Take a look, see if you find something you like :smallwink:
Some of my favorites are Steel Dragon (combined with Venomfire for a massively nasty breath weapon), Shadow Dragon (negative levels BW) and Song Dragon (permanent Tongues and True Seeing).
The thing is, there's a dragon shape with every kind of damage imaginable as a breath weapon, along with the corresponding immunities.
You also get Humanoid Wild Shape per some dragons Alternate Form ability, along with great senses, fast flight, innate spell resistance and some useful abilites (Spider Climb, Icewalking, Cloudwalking, Water Breathing, Sound Imitation, DR, Freedom of Movement, Rusting Grasp, etc.).
If your group allows OA material, Lung Dragons get permanent Detect Thoughts and at will Invisibility. Gem Dragons get Planar Travel.
If you get a way to increase your size they even make great meleers with a good number of natural attacks and high natural AC.

There are very very few feats that give THAT many options.

As for the Belt: You already get a strength bonus from your persisted Bite of the Werebear. There's spells that give enhancement boni to the other stats too.
The only one you really need on an item is wisdom because you won't get bonus spells otherwise. Constitution is nice too because that's one you generally don't want dispelled, but it's not that crucial.

Ah thank you for the link. Also, I see what you are saying I completely forgot the bite spell and the belt are both enhancement bonuses *facepalm* I also want to put int up there just for the skill points but I see that Con and Wis are the most important.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Another fun one if you want to get nasty: go Arcane Hierophant and after getting access to lvl 7 arcane spells take two levels of Wyrm Wizard to get access to Body outside Body from the Wu Jen spell list.

[Urpriest]

snip

Ok, a few things.

First, looks like you forgot to account for the Str penalty in your stats. It's a minor issue since you'll be in Wild Shape all the time, but thought you should know.

Knowledge Devotion is generally good, but it is dependent on keeping the skill ranks up. Do you have room for that?

Drop Alertness. You don't need Master of Many Forms. You can cast Shapechange, and most of the Master of Many Forms abilities are accessible through Epic Feats. Instead, keep taking Druid. It will advance your Animal Companion, plus give you bonus Epic Feats, of which there are several good ones even without Epic Spellcasting. Plus, you want to keep your CL up.

Frozen Wild Shape is kind of limited. Cryohydra is cool, but it's pretty much the only thing you can do with it, so unless you want to be really Cryohydra-focused I'd skip it. Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon version, not Epic version) has a decent combat form in Fang Dragon, and a great caster form in Shadow Dragon (total concealment whenever not in full daylight? yes please!), while Aberration Wild Shape gives you both nice caster forms (Will O' the Wisp, Choker) and melee forms (lots of tentacles available along with a variety of movement modes). Though honestly a lot of the Plant forms are already awesome at that.

The Dragonhide Studded Leather is kind of pointless, since it won't go with you in Wild Shape. If you can scrounge up the cash, I'd recommend +1 Wild Dragonhide Full Plate, which will give you more AC than Greater Mage Armor can and all without any ACP due to how Wild works. Add Soulfire if you can afford it, or put it on something else like an animated shield.

Bite of the Werebear is already an Enhancement bonus, so you don't need the Belt of Magnificence. Just get something for Wis and something for Con, combining them using MiC rules.

You probably don't need to turn the Cloak of Displacement into Boots, Mantle of the Beast isn't that important.

I assume you've got DM approval on that continuous Favor of the Martyr item?

Just checking, you're doing the trick with Superior Resistance and Energy Immunity where you have all five elements and Superior Resistance up at the same time using the Rod of Extend, the Pearl of Power, and two 6th level slots a day, right?




- drop the Ring of Negative Protection. For the same price, get Bracers of Armor +1 with Soulfire (BoED)


Doesn't work. Bracers of Armor are an item that gives an armor bonus, not actual armor, you can't apply armor enhancements to it.

[ddude987]

Ok, a few things.

First, looks like you forgot to account for the Str penalty in your stats. It's a minor issue since you'll be in Wild Shape all the time, but thought you should know.

Knowledge Devotion is generally good, but it is dependent on keeping the skill ranks up. Do you have room for that?

Drop Alertness. You don't need Master of Many Forms. You can cast Shapechange, and most of the Master of Many Forms abilities are accessible through Epic Feats. Instead, keep taking Druid. It will advance your Animal Companion, plus give you bonus Epic Feats, of which there are several good ones even without Epic Spellcasting. Plus, you want to keep your CL up.

Frozen Wild Shape is kind of limited. Cryohydra is cool, but it's pretty much the only thing you can do with it, so unless you want to be really Cryohydra-focused I'd skip it. Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon version, not Epic version) has a decent combat form in Fang Dragon, and a great caster form in Shadow Dragon (total concealment whenever not in full daylight? yes please!), while Aberration Wild Shape gives you both nice caster forms (Will O' the Wisp, Choker) and melee forms (lots of tentacles available along with a variety of movement modes). Though honestly a lot of the Plant forms are already awesome at that.

The Dragonhide Studded Leather is kind of pointless, since it won't go with you in Wild Shape. If you can scrounge up the cash, I'd recommend +1 Wild Dragonhide Full Plate, which will give you more AC than Greater Mage Armor can and all without any ACP due to how Wild works. Add Soulfire if you can afford it, or put it on something else like an animated shield.

Bite of the Werebear is already an Enhancement bonus, so you don't need the Belt of Magnificence. Just get something for Wis and something for Con, combining them using MiC rules.

You probably don't need to turn the Cloak of Displacement into Boots, Mantle of the Beast isn't that important.

I assume you've got DM approval on that continuous Favor of the Martyr item?

Just checking, you're doing the trick with Superior Resistance and Energy Immunity where you have all five elements and Superior Resistance up at the same time using the Rod of Extend, the Pearl of Power, and two 6th level slots a day, right?




Doesn't work. Bracers of Armor are an item that gives an armor bonus, not actual armor, you can't apply armor enhancements to it.

Yes I am doing the resistance and immunity trick. Yes DM approved custom items. My DM generally just allows things RAW unless they actually break the game.

Why is mantle not that important? It gives wild shape as swift. Is that bad?

Also, I wanted to to abberation wild shape but I thought it required abberant blood which requires humanoid which a dwk is not. Am I wrong here?

Thank you for the catch on the bracers of armor.

edit: also yeah I realize, I'll fix my stats

[Urpriest]

Why is mantle not that important? It gives wild shape as swift. Is that bad?

Also, I wanted to to abberation wild shape but I thought it required abberant blood which requires humanoid which a dwk is not. Am I wrong here?

Thank you for the catch on the bracers of armor.

edit: also yeah I realize, I'll fix my stats

Wild Shape as a swift is nice, but high level adventuring parties are quite proactive, and your Wild Shape lasts all day. Most of the time you'll be in the right form before combat starts. That said, it does increase your versatility, so it's up to you if it's worth the gold cost compared to the other things you could be doing.

Huh, I hadn't remembered that Aberration Blood required Humanoid. In that case, yeah, you're essentially weighing Cryohydra against various caster forms from Dragon Wild Shape. Though if you're ditching Alterness, you could probably shuffle some feats around and take both.

[ddude987]

Wild Shape as a swift is nice, but high level adventuring parties are quite proactive, and your Wild Shape lasts all day. Most of the time you'll be in the right form before combat starts. That said, it does increase your versatility, so it's up to you if it's worth the gold cost compared to the other things you could be doing.

Huh, I hadn't remembered that Aberration Blood required Humanoid. In that case, yeah, you're essentially weighing Cryohydra against various caster forms from Dragon Wild Shape. Though if you're ditching Alterness, you could probably shuffle some feats around and take both.

Alright thanks. In your opinion, how good is the cryohydra? I dropped Alertness for Dragon Wild Shape. If Cryohydra really won't be good level 18 then I could replace it with Quicken. My DM said I can always retrain it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A character who has the Craft
Magic Arms and Armor and
Craft Wondrous Item feats, as
well as mage armor and all the
other prerequisites necessary,
can add the armor special
abilities shown on Table 8–6
in the DUNGEONMASTER’s Guide
to a set of bracers of armor.

Arms & Equipment Guide p. 130

So you can add Soulfire to Bracers of Armor.

[Spuddles]

Ditch armor altogether and wild clasp a monk's belt. Cast Luminous Armor on yourself (+8 armor bonus, -4 penalty on melee attacks vs you, BoED). Sacrifice costs occur after the spell expires.

Cloistered Cleric is kind of a waste, imo. Trading the knowledge domain for knowledge devotion actually loses you all your knowledge skills as class skills for your cloistered cleric levels:

Class Skills
The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

If you want to get turning on your druid, Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook) will get you the Sun domain. Level 13 of the Druid alternate base class, Wild Reaper (DR311), gets you Turn Undead. I can't remember if their are any stricter alignment restrictions on that one.

The easiest way may be with unguent of timelessness and bone talisman. See this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11384248&postcount=44), 5th line break, for how it works. See the rest of the post for how to play your Druid such that other people won't like playing with you :smallwink:

[ddude987]

Ditch armor altogether and wild clasp a monk's belt. Cast Luminous Armor on yourself (+8 armor bonus, -4 penalty on melee attacks vs you, BoED). Sacrifice costs occur after the spell expires.

Cloistered Cleric is kind of a waste, imo. Trading the knowledge domain for knowledge devotion actually loses you all your knowledge skills as class skills for your cloistered cleric levels:


If you want to get turning on your druid, Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook) will get you the Sun domain. Level 13 of the Druid alternate base class, Wild Reaper (DR311), gets you Turn Undead. I can't remember if their are any stricter alignment restrictions on that one.

The easiest way may be with unguent of timelessness and bone talisman. See this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11384248&postcount=44), 5th line break, for how it works. See the rest of the post for how to play your Druid such that other people won't like playing with you :smallwink:

I don't need the monk's belt, I already get that ability from Saint... Unless they stack?
Dragon Mag is probably not allowed, though I would LOVE to try Wild Reaper out. Also, Cloistered Cleric allows me to get Extend Spell free which because I'm already tight on feats is a good help.

[Spuddles]

The armor bonuses stack (one is insight, one is... a monk's armor bonus).

[ddude987]

The armor bonuses stack (one is insight, one is... a monk's armor bonus).

Well in that case Monk's Belt is a go. Thanks so much for all the help everyone! I'll check out wild reaper varient, haven't actually read it, just heard.

Question: If I were to use the druid's ability to alter self at-will could I make my full-plate meld into my form? So get it to meld without actually using wild shape? Or would the wild armor enhancement not trigger?

edit: I've read through wild reaper and I'll pass. I know it is really good but I would much prefer the one level of Cloistered Cleric. Also, CC gives me extend spell for free which I like.

edit: edit: Also I just realized Saint gives immunity to Acid, Cold, and Electricity so the extend energy immunity trick is actually an every other day thing now.

edit:edit:edit: Also, spuddles, or anyone else who knows, could you explain the bone talisman thing you linked me for persist spell? Thanks.

[Urpriest]

Alright thanks. In your opinion, how good is the cryohydra? I dropped Alertness for Dragon Wild Shape. If Cryohydra really won't be good level 18 then I could replace it with Quicken. My DM said I can always retrain it.

Cryohydra is legitimately pretty potent, if only for getting 12 AOOs on every provocation. That said, that will only really shine with something like Robilar's Gambit or the like. Meanwhile, it will have much lower Str and other attributes than some of your other available combat forms (admittedly not including the Dragons from Dragon Wild Shape).


Arms & Equipment Guide p. 130

So you can add Soulfire to Bracers of Armor.

It's...arguable. Bracers of Armor were updated in the 3.5 DMG without that ability, which seems to indicate that it wasn't carried over to 3.5. That's probably how Curmudgeon would rule it, me, I'm not as opinionated on the subject. Might be worth it to ask the DM in question.


Ditch armor altogether and wild clasp a monk's belt. Cast Luminous Armor on yourself (+8 armor bonus, -4 penalty on melee attacks vs you, BoED). Sacrifice costs occur after the spell expires.


I had forgotten that the character was Exalted, that makes this probably a better option than Wild Dragonhide.



Question: If I were to use the druid's ability to alter self at-will could I make my full-plate meld into my form? So get it to meld without actually using wild shape? Or would the wild armor enhancement not trigger?


Wild only works with Wild Shape, unfortunately.

[Spuddles]

Wildshape & Polymorph don't actually give you a hydra's multiple attacks as a standard action. That ability is simply an "attack", and nothing in the description of either wildshape or polymorph or alter self say you gain the "attack" or "full attack" of what you turn into- only the extraordinary special attacks. Hydras have "-" in their entry for special attacks.

Unless I guess you go by the hyper-permissive Rules Compendium ruling that also lets you have Solar casting.

[Urpriest]

Wildshape & Polymorph don't actually give you a hydra's multiple attacks as a standard action. That ability is simply an "attack", and nothing in the description of either wildshape or polymorph or alter self say you gain the "attack" or "full attack" of what you turn into- only the extraordinary special attacks. Hydras have "-" in their entry for special attacks.

Unless I guess you go by the hyper-permissive Rules Compendium ruling that also lets you have Solar casting.

Yes and no. Racial bonus feats are Ex, you definitely get them with Enhance Wild Shape, so you get Combat Reflexes, which includes the modified effect it has on Hydras since that's in the Feats section.

From there, there's just the question of using all of the heads on a standard action (relevant in surprise rounds, when one needs to move, and when one gets extra standard actions). This ability is not an "attack", it's part of the Combat section, listed as simply part of how hydras work. That seems like one of the clearest examples I've seen of a Natural Ability, but I grant that it's not explicit. I don't think any Natural Abilities are.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Wildshape & Polymorph don't actually give you a hydra's multiple attacks as a standard action. That ability is simply an "attack", and nothing in the description of either wildshape or polymorph or alter self say you gain the "attack" or "full attack" of what you turn into- only the extraordinary special attacks. Hydras have "-" in their entry for special attacks.

Unless I guess you go by the hyper-permissive Rules Compendium ruling that also lets you have Solar casting.

How do you get that idea? It's the hydra's natural attack, which you get the same way you get a tiger's claw and bite attacks if you wild shape into that form.
I just don't think it's worth a feat when you can get forms with similar numbers of attacks for free with plant wild shape. Some of those get useful abilities on top of that.

[Mishkov]

Just posting to say that everything Urpriest said was good advice, was what I was going to suggest!

[ddude987]

Okay! Stats and Equipment was updated. I still have 49k to spend on magic items. Any suggestions? Thanks so much for all the help refining my gear and character!

[Pilo]

You cannot take natural spell before level 6 as you do not have wildshape.

If one of your teamate is CG, buy a candle of invocation instead of your twin reapeated wish staff and gate a Noble djinn, then use the regular candle of invocation trick.

[ddude987]

You cannot take natural spell before level 6 as you do not have wildshape.

If one of your teamate is CG, buy a candle of invocation instead of your twin reapeated wish staff and gate a Noble djinn, then use the regular candle of invocation trick.

Thanks fixed. Also candle doesn't exsist in DMs world :(

Edit: I was considering a custom item of use activated greater mirror image to help with miss chance but that is 56k, which I could definitely get. My DM informed me that at the start of the game he is going to roll for a random number of +1, +2, +3 and +4 tomes so I'm considering dropping the staff of wish and just amending my back story accordingly.

[Pilo]

Do not forget to buy a Jade circlet (1500po) for shapechange (the 9lvl spell).

Which make me ask why do you take frozen and dragon wildshape while you can persist shapechange?

[ddude987]

Do not forget to buy a Jade circlet (1500po) for shapechange (the 9lvl spell).

Which make me ask why do you take frozen and dragon wildshape while you can persist shapechange?

Firstly I didn't think of persisting Shapechange. Also, is the Jade Circlet consumed in the shapechange spell? That would mean I need to spend 1.5k every day if I were to persist Shapechange. I also forgot about the fact that Shapechange you can keep changing >>

edit: Also persisting Shapechange defeats the purpose of being a druid.

[Urpriest]

Firstly I didn't think of persisting Shapechange. Also, is the Jade Circlet consumed in the shapechange spell? That would mean I need to spend 1.5k every day if I were to persist Shapechange. I also forgot about the fact that Shapechange you can keep changing >>

edit: Also persisting Shapechange defeats the purpose of being a druid.

The Jade Circlet is a focus.

You probably want it available to cast anyway, since it adds more options (including some very abusive ones, but you'll likely want to avoid those). I was avoiding mentioning Persisting it for precisely this reason, though: it does kind of obviate Druid at this level.

Speaking of abusive options, I ought to point out that Owl's Insight (Spell Compendium) is insane. If you want it to benefit your casting you'd probably need to persist it, otherwise just use it before you enter a dungeon or the like to add to all your other Wis-based goodies.

Looking over things again, it occurs to me that Time is probably a better domain choice than Fate (incidentally, Chronepsis has awesome domains, wow). Fate benefits you if you lose initiative, while Time helps you win it.

Why, besides price, is your Mouthpick a dagger? Mouthpick grants automatic proficiency, it can totally be a Spiked Chain or the like.

[ddude987]

The Jade Circlet is a focus.

You probably want it available to cast anyway, since it adds more options (including some very abusive ones, but you'll likely want to avoid those). I was avoiding mentioning Persisting it for precisely this reason, though: it does kind of obviate Druid at this level.

Speaking of abusive options, I ought to point out that Owl's Insight (Spell Compendium) is insane. If you want it to benefit your casting you'd probably need to persist it, otherwise just use it before you enter a dungeon or the like to add to all your other Wis-based goodies.

Looking over things again, it occurs to me that Time is probably a better domain choice than Fate (incidentally, Chronepsis has awesome domains, wow). Fate benefits you if you lose initiative, while Time helps you win it.

Why, besides price, is your Mouthpick a dagger? Mouthpick grants automatic proficiency, it can totally be a Spiked Chain or the like.

The only reason I have a weapon is for the auto counterspell dispel magic. I didn't plan on ever using it. I figured a dagger was concealable. Also I already thought of Owl's Insight, but it is touch and therefore not persistable... suggestions? Or is there an updated version I'm not looking at.

[Spuddles]

There's always Ocular Spell....

[ddude987]

There's always Ocular Spell....

Oh... so that turns basically turns persist into a +2 mod instead of +6... a quick google search also told me of reach spell... is either better than the other?

[Urpriest]

The only reason I have a weapon is for the auto counterspell dispel magic. I didn't plan on ever using it. I figured a dagger was concealable. Also I already thought of Owl's Insight, but it is touch and therefore not persistable... suggestions? Or is there an updated version I'm not looking at.

Oh, I fully realize it's just for counterspelling. But why not have it be useful as a weapon sometimes too? Since you don't have Sleight of Hand, you can't conceal the dagger, so there's no reason not to make it obvious. I suppose you might want to go for something more situational than a Spiked Chain if you don't plan on using it, but it is nice to have a two-handed weapon on some of those high-Str forms. In terms of Owl's Insight...


There's always Ocular Spell....

Which is a fairly cheesy option. Alternatively, just use it as a dungeon buff. It still buffs your AC, DCs, ACDCs, Will, Spot, Listen...

[ddude987]

Oh, I fully realize it's just for counterspelling. But why not have it be useful as a weapon sometimes too? Since you don't have Sleight of Hand, you can't conceal the dagger, so there's no reason not to make it obvious. I suppose you might want to go for something more situational than a Spiked Chain if you don't plan on using it, but it is nice to have a two-handed weapon on some of those high-Str forms. In terms of Owl's Insight...



Which is a fairly cheesy option. Alternatively, just use it as a dungeon buff. It still buffs your AC, DCs, ACDCs, Will, Spot, Listen...

Well spiked chain would actually work quite well now that I think about it. Especially in larger forms where I have massive str as well as bonuses from size. In terms of the ocular spell thing I'm considering it but what feat to drop...

Also if I do do ocular spell (cheese?) I won't be doing it with more than the owl's insight. Any possible an emergency buff to a party member.

edit: I switched domain to time. I am now considering dropping the staff for inherent bonus and ending up with 76k or so for more items. Any ideas on items? I'm missing immunity to crits and a few other things. Not sure how necessary they are.

[ddude987]

Drop Alertness. You don't need Master of Many Forms. You can cast Shapechange, and most of the Master of Many Forms abilities are accessible through Epic Feats. Instead, keep taking Druid. It will advance your Animal Companion, plus give you bonus Epic Feats, of which there are several good ones even without Epic Spellcasting. Plus, you want to keep your CL up.

Also, why is keeping my caster level important? Also does my animal companion keep progressing past the benefits of a 20th level Druid? I looked in the ELH but I didn't see animal progression past the Player's Handbook table.

[Urpriest]

Also, why is keeping my caster level important? Also does my animal companion keep progressing past the benefits of a 20th level Druid? I looked in the ELH but I didn't see animal progression past the Player's Handbook table.

Well, caster level mostly helps out with dispelling, which you've got some protection from, but there are more esoteric spells that will cause problems. Also, you probably will want to get through SR sometimes.

IIRC, there is an Epic Druid progression. It isn't in the ELH because that was 3.0, but in the DMG's progression it has a class feature that advances your animal companion.

[ddude987]

Well, caster level mostly helps out with dispelling, which you've got some protection from, but there are more esoteric spells that will cause problems. Also, you probably will want to get through SR sometimes.

IIRC, there is an Epic Druid progression. It isn't in the ELH because that was 3.0, but in the DMG's progression it has a class feature that advances your animal companion.

Thanks! So I still got 76k to kick around... I can't think of anything. I feel like all my basis are covered. Well except for crit immunity. Any suggestions on random Druid thing's I didn't think of? I guess I could grab a rod of quicken. Other than that I can't think of any more great equips to grab.

Oh one more thing... I decided I'm going to do the Ocular/Reach spell (cheesyish) persist combo. Which is considered better, reach of ocular? and why?

Edit: Also, the Wild Shape size progression seems to follow a regular pattern. Does the pattern continue through epic levels? The DMG said something along the lines of predictable patterns continue or something?

[Urpriest]

The pattern isn't regular enough to continue (for one, it has to stop at Colossal). But you get bonus Epic Feats, including those that increase the sizes and types you can Wild Shape into (which is why Master of Many Forms isn't that hot at Epic).

Touch spells have a target, so Ocular covers all the cases Reach does and more, since it also does rays. That said, it's arguably a bit more dubious. But if your DM is ok with either, stick with Ocular in case you find rays you want to Persist.

Crit Immunity would be nice...though you can get that with Enhance Wildshape and Plant Wildshape, and it's situational enough that you might not need it on constantly. A Rod of Quicken is certainly fun. I assume all your AC boosters are fully up to date? (Enhancement to Natural Armor, Deflection, and so forth?). If all else fails, you can go back to the boots of displacement idea and get the mantle back, swift wildshape is still useful if you've got the spare cash anyway.

[ddude987]

The pattern isn't regular enough to continue (for one, it has to stop at Colossal). But you get bonus Epic Feats, including those that increase the sizes and types you can Wild Shape into (which is why Master of Many Forms isn't that hot at Epic).

Touch spells have a target, so Ocular covers all the cases Reach does and more, since it also does rays. That said, it's arguably a bit more dubious. But if your DM is ok with either, stick with Ocular in case you find rays you want to Persist.

Crit Immunity would be nice...though you can get that with Enhance Wildshape and Plant Wildshape, and it's situational enough that you might not need it on constantly. A Rod of Quicken is certainly fun. I assume all your AC boosters are fully up to date? (Enhancement to Natural Armor, Deflection, and so forth?). If all else fails, you can go back to the boots of displacement idea and get the mantle back, swift wildshape is still useful if you've got the spare cash anyway.

Well in terms of AC this is what I have as of so far: AC: 46=10+Armor Bonus(8[Luminous Armor])+Shield(0)+Dex Mod(3)+Size(1)+Natural(7[Bite of the werebear])+Defect(0)+Misc(23[Saint+Monk Belt])
Touch: 37 :: Flat-Footed(43)

I am missing deflection bonus. Was not sure how useful it would be to get a ring of deflection (for example). Is 46 not nearly high enough? Or rather I've heard touch is more important at this level so 37 touch not enough?

Oh also, cut Frozen Wild Shape for Ocular Spell if I am to go that route correct?

Also Also, Ocular spell works Rule as Written not some silly interpretation yes? I am just curious because I though all metamagic was applied simultaneously so since ocular spell has not been applied when persist is being applied persist does not qualify. Thanks!

[Gavinfoxx]

Deflection bonus? You need access to Scintillating Scales, somehow...

Wondrous Item, Ring that functions like a Wondrous Item, whatever...

[Spuddles]

Ocular is much better. It can be used in an offensive manner to unload two spells in a round, as intended. It can also be used to persist any spell that has a target other than personal. That really, really opens the field up to what you can persist. Of course it works on a wizard chassis a little better, with things like Sakkratar's Triple Strike or something.

Persisting Undermaster (SpC) may be worth while. It's ninth level, so you're gonna need a whole boatload of turn attempts. It's probably worth it, though. At will Rock to Mud, Mud to Rock, Earthquake, Reverse Gravity, Stone to Flesh, Flesh to Stone, among others.

Some other useful buffs: Girallon's Blessing (extra arms), Bite of the Weretiger (pounce), Bite of the Werebear (massive str enhancement). The first lasts 10min/level and is only a 3rd level spell. The latter two may be worth persisting, either on you or your companion. Without Spellbound Companion, I wouldn't share it with both of you.

Venomfire bears mentioning, as adding caster level d6 damage on your (or companion's) attacks is pretty messed up.

Note that tomes you read for inherent stat bonuses affect your polymorph form, etc, just like gauntlets of strength would if you turned into an ogre and put them on.

[ddude987]

Ocular is much better. It can be used in an offensive manner to unload two spells in a round, as intended. It can also be used to persist any spell that has a target other than personal. That really, really opens the field up to what you can persist. Of course it works on a wizard chassis a little better, with things like Sakkratar's Triple Strike or something.

Persisting Undermaster (SpC) may be worth while. It's ninth level, so you're gonna need a whole boatload of turn attempts. It's probably worth it, though. At will Rock to Mud, Mud to Rock, Earthquake, Reverse Gravity, Stone to Flesh, Flesh to Stone, among others.

Some other useful buffs: Girallon's Blessing (extra arms), Bite of the Weretiger (pounce), Bite of the Werebear (massive str enhancement). The first lasts 10min/level and is only a 3rd level spell. The latter two may be worth persisting, either on you or your companion. Without Spellbound Companion, I wouldn't share it with both of you.

Venomfire bears mentioning, as adding caster level d6 damage on your (or companion's) attacks is pretty messed up.

Note that tomes you read for inherent stat bonuses affect your polymorph form, etc, just like gauntlets of strength would if you turned into an ogre and put them on.

Thank you for so many spell suggestions. Though that 9th level you mentioned, you said it would take a bunch of turn attempts. I'm pretty sure it is the same number of attempts no matter the spell level? Also because ocular spell uses slot two higher does this mean persisting 8 and 9th level spells is impossible this method?

[Spuddles]

I am tired and confused. Undermaster only needs 7 turn attempts to persist, as it is a personal spell. For some reason I was thinking you would need to DMM Ocular Spell it in addition to DMM Persist, but that is against the rules. Only one Divine feat may be activated a round.

So to Persist Owl's Insight, you prepare it as an Ocular Spell in a 7th level slot, then use 7 turn attempts to persist it.

[ddude987]

I am tired and confused. Undermaster only needs 7 turn attempts to persist, as it is a personal spell. For some reason I was thinking you would need to DMM Ocular Spell it in addition to DMM Persist, but that is against the rules. Only one Divine feat may be activated a round.

So to Persist Owl's Insight, you prepare it as an Ocular Spell in a 7th level slot, then use 7 turn attempts to persist it.

Thank you. I was quite confused though perhaps not as tired as you.


Deflection bonus? You need access to Scintillating Scales, somehow...

Wondrous Item, Ring that functions like a Wondrous Item, whatever...

That's a great idea! Adding my natural armor to touch would be really helpful.

[Gavinfoxx]

A quote from my post scarcity handbook:

"First, here is a list of ways to get spells into items to cast spells, without the items being depleted in the casting:

1.) Eternal Wands, from Magic Item Compendium. They have a little bit of an extra surcharge on them from the DMG formula, but gives 2/day casting of spells levels 1-3, for anyone who happens to be able to cast any arcane spell at all (like every gnome ever), to use them.

2.) Magical traps using the DMG rules for automatic reset magical traps and stuff. Note that if you want precedent for magical traps that are beneficial, look at the Boon traps in Dungeonscape.

3.) Drow House Insignia sorts of items, first explained in the book Races of Faerun, pg 175. They were updated to be more pricey in Drow of the Underdark. Basically use the DMG rules, but this gives a specific form, 1/day limitation, and certain spell levels, 1-3. The Drow of the Underdark (this is the most recent set of rules for them) ones cost more than the DMG rules for wondrous items that cast spells.

4.) Minor Schema, from the book Magic of Eberron. A way to cast spells lvl 1-6, once a day. Further, these work better for Artificers (the best crafters in D&D), who can apply their class features to this. If An Artificer makes a Schema of Wall of Iron, and he has a Rod of Invisible Spell, he could -- for example -- make Invisible Iron... he can't easily do that with a Magical Trap or anything like that..

5.) Generic wondrous items that cast spells, per the DMG rules for custom magic items. ESPECIALLY go for infinite use, use activated ones once you have the money, (and you will have the money)!

6.) Spell Turrets, from Dungeon Master's Guide II. Those are pretty swank, automatically casting spells on targets in range

7.) Spell clocks, from here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a which automatically cast a spell after a timer goes off, and then resets the timer

8.) A Divine caster, especially one with bonus feats and lots of spell access (like an Archivist) can make Runes via the Runecaster prestige class from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (and Player’s Guide to Faerun), which are not depleted in the casting of their spell. The character would need eight levels of the Runecaster prestige class to do this.

9.) Rings can cast spells. This is basically the same as making a generic wondrous item that can cast a spell, except it is ring slot rather than slotless or any slot other than ring slot."


Also, there are some sections of that handbook that have to do with Druids... it's arguable that Druids might be able to, with spells ALONE, with no cost to them, make +1 gear that stays +1... that's not 100% certain (the rules require some interpretation), but the interpretation that they can do so is definitely valid...

The handbook is here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit


Also, the Ironwood thing is here (without a digression I added that 'some GM's don't let this make permanent magic items, consult your GM', in a later version that I lost...)


It's education time! Gavin talks about wooden armors!

Okay. Per the PHB and the SRD, in the "craft" section, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm:

"A successful Craft check related to woodworking in conjunction with the casting of the ironwood spell enables you to make wooden items that have the strength of steel."

In the Ironwood spell description, it says, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ironwood.htm:

"Effect: An ironwood object weighing up to 5 lb./level"

and

"Using this spell with wood shape or a wood-related Craft check, you can fashion wooden items that function as steel items. Thus, wooden plate armor and wooden swords can be created that are as durable as their normal steel counterparts. These items are freely usable by druids.

Further, if you make only half as much ironwood as the spell would normally allow, any weapon, shield, or suit of armor so created is treated as a magic item with a +1 enhancement bonus."

In the goods and services section, it says, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/...dServices.htm:

"Spell, 6th-level Caster level × 60 gp"

In the Druid section, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm, it says that the minimum character and caster level for a 6th level spell is 11.

In the Special Materials section, it says, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm:

"Darkwood

This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type. To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.

Darkwood has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 5."

In the Armor section, it says, at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm:

"Breastplate .... 200 gp ... 30 lb."
and
"A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal cost for that type of armor or shield."

So, combined, what does this mean?

1. Make a Masterwork Darkwood Breastplate. 200 gp + 150 gp for masterwork + 300 gp for darkwood. If your craft check is high enough to do this yourself, you can shave quite a bit of money off of the price of this.
2. As part of the crafting, pay an 11th level Druid to cast a CL 11 Ironwood on it. This should work on an object up to 55 lbs. Further, since the actual Darkwood breastplate weighs half the normal weight -- 15 lbs instead of 30 -- it invokes the 'half as much ironwood as the spell would normally allow' clause, and the item becomes +1. The cost of spellcasting services of an 11th level Druid casting Ironwood is 11 x 60, or 660 gp.
3. Enjoy your swank new armor! Many DMs rule that the +1 is permanent and won't go away; some GMs rule that the +1 goes away when the Ironwood spell runs out in a few days. Regardless, it is Masterwork Light armor, like Mithral, and is as strong as steel, and doesn't burn like wood, and is as resistant to fire as steel.. see the following..

Now... looking at 3.0e and 3.5e, a Darkwood armor *was* possible. In Dragon Magazine 279 pg 49, Darkwood armor (described as treated with alchemical leaves) has spell failure chance decreased by 5%, max dex bonus increased by +2, armor check penalties decreased by 2, and it is treated as 1 category lighter. This was updated to 3.5e in Eberron Campaign Setting, and given the exact same stats, but called "Darkleaf".

But what are we doing? We are replacing the Alchemical treatment with a magical treatment... and paying 1310 for an armor in a very profound way, likely has the stats almost (but not quite) equivalent to a "+1 Mithral Breastplate", or at least a Mithral Breastplate. The canon alchemically treated Darkwood armors cost, for a +1 version, 3450 gp, in both the 3.0e and the 3.5e version. If the DMs let the Ironwood bit be permanent (Rules as Written isn't clear), this gets you basically the same thing for 1310 gp. Also compare it to a +1 Mithral Breastplate, which costs 5200 gp.

Now, let's look at the OTHER materials.

Per Eberron campaign setting page 126, a like iron, albeit a tad lighter, but made out of wood material is Bronzewood. A +1 Bronzewood Breastplate would cost 5200 gp.

Per Magic of Faerun page 178, a +1 Duskwood Breastplate is 4200 gp. This one is most similar to Mithral of the woods (even more than the Darkleaf), with a Duskwood Breastplate being armor bonus +5, maximum dex bonus +4, armor check penalty -2, arcane spell failure of 20%, and it is light armor.

Coldwood is in Dragon Magazine #357 page 55. A +1 Coldwood Breastplate costs 3200 gp, and a mundane version of this acts exactly like a steel breastplate.

Bluewood is in Unapproachable East page 58. It is an alchemically treated wood. A +1 Bluewood Breastplate costs 1800 gp, and a mundane version acts like a steel breastplate.

Also, Druids can use any of these armors completely without problem... and remember! The Animal Companions of the Druids don't share their oath; they can use metal armor just fine. Get these (generally nonproficient) Mithral Chain Shirt Barding, for +0 ACP, if you have the cash.

[ddude987]

snip

I'll check the handbook out thanks! I just got the Magic Item Compendium and immediately read the adding normal things to wondrous items.

Thoughts on persisting Unearthly Beauty?

[Gavinfoxx]

There are a LOT of useful item handbooks...

If you want a handbook of handbooks, look at this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

Especially useful for druids are the various item handbooks, the handle animal handbooks, of course the Druid Handbook itself, the Scouting handbook, the poison handbook...

[ddude987]

There are a LOT of useful item handbooks...

If you want a handbook of handbooks, look at this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

Especially useful for druids are the various item handbooks, the handle animal handbooks, of course the Druid Handbook itself, the Scouting handbook, the poison handbook...

I use the handbooks index all the time. Though this is going into epic levels so I wasen't sure how much from the handbook would still hold true.