[3.5] How to deal with hidden enemies?

[Keltaris]

In tonight's gaming session, our 6th level party got ambushed by rogues, and we had some troubles getting rid of our enemy.

Here we are:

Minotaur Lion Totem Barbarian 6
Dwarf Cleric 6
Human Druid 6 with Riding Dog companion
Human Rogue 1/Bard 5

We were on the road, and come the night, we had to camp. We knew there was a strong possibility someone might try to steal from us but we didn't have much in the way of countermeasures, so we kinda winged it.

We lack darkvision and the only one of our party capable of a decent Spot/Listen check is the Druid (+13).

We take watch in turn, and during the dwarf's turn, unnoticed, the half-elven rogues started rummaging in our backpacks. Luckily, the Druid woke up, and they fled.

We tried to chase them but being unable to see in the darkness, they had a great advantage and they managed to reach a forested area, when they hid and started sniping us.

The group was divided as the dwarf and me stayed behind, the Cleric trying to Enthrall them as they fled, and me with him because I didn't want to leave him alone in case they got back.

The Druid and the Barbarian had some troubles locating them but in the end they managed to get all three of them.

How should we deal with this kinda situations?

Thanks.

P.s. We're playing in a Dragonlance campaign, that's why half-elves could see in the dark.

Also, the DM ruled that Low-light vision was not enough to chase them at x4 speed.

These are the books we have to work with: PHB, MMI, DMG and all completes.

[Darrin]

This might help. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040921a) Unless you've optimized for it, Listen checks are usually easier than Spot checks.

[BRC]

First, you have a Dog, it can smell things.

Second: You have multiple casters capable of casting "Light' Spells. You can light up your armor at the very least.

3rd: Unless I'm mistaken, Dwarves have Darkvision.
4th: Not sure how things are in Dragonlance, but in standard 3.5 Minotaurs have both Scent and Darkvision.

[Keltaris]

First, you have a Dog, it can smell things.

Second: You have multiple casters capable of casting "Light' Spells. You can light up your armor at the very least.

3rd: Unless I'm mistaken, Dwarves have Darkvision.
4th: Not sure how things are in Dragonlance, but in standard 3.5 Minotaurs have both Scent and Darkvision.

First) Yes, but the only way for it to pinpoint the exact location of a target is to get within 5 feet. So we could get the direction, but not the exact location.

Question: Could the dog, get the direction with a move action, then use another move to get closer and automatically detect when it's within 5 feet from the target? The DM ruled that it had to do his full move and thus it didn't end in range.

Second) We did, but that lost us a turn, giving the rogues the advantage they used to hide in the forested area.

Third) They do, but he stayed behind in an attempt to enthrall them as they fled (they all passed the save) and was left behind.

Fourth) In Dragonlance they don't even have Low-light. :smallfrown:

[OverdrivePrime]

You've got a bard. Glitterdust is an amazing AoE that you could use to even the odds.

As others have said you have both a dog and a number of avenues to light spells. Light, dancing light, prestidigitation, daylight, alter self to shift into something with darkvision or low light vision...

You also have the ability to cast alarm around your camp.

If you're attacked in the middle of the night by these guys again, have your druid drop a 3rd level spell and spend a round summoning a Giant Owl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owlGiant.htm). And then have someone cast Light on it as it swoops off to dive bomb your foes. Then have your beatsticks run off to jack up any rogues that our owl spots with its superior low light vision.

[Keltaris]

You've got a bard. Glitterdust is an amazing AoE that you could use to even the odds.

As others have said you have both a dog and a number of avenues to light spells. Light, dancing light, prestidigitation, daylight, alter self to shift into something with darkvision or low light vision...

You also have the ability to cast alarm around your camp.

If you're attacked in the middle of the night by these guys again, have your druid drop a 3rd level spell and spend a round summoning a Giant Owl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owlGiant.htm). And then have someone cast Light on it as it swoops off to dive bomb your foes. Then have your beatsticks run off to jack up any rogues that our owl spots with its superior low light vision.

Alarm in not among my spells known unfortunately and while Glitterdust would have been great (I also have a Lesser Sculpting Rod) I never had the chance to use it, as I never had line of sight to their location. (I also don't have Alter Self)

Casting light on a Giant Owl would be a great idea, though, and having Superior Low-light vision the nighttime shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Thanks.

p.s. I've just been told that the DM messed up the rule for sniping and gave only a -10 penalty to hide. This explains why it was so hard to spot them.

[Ashtagon]

Hmm...

Running:

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.

Low-Light Vision:

Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

If the Moon was up (this being Dragonlance, one of them must surely have been up on almost any given night), then you can see as if it were daylight. Which means your GM wasn't playing fair. Even starlight with no moon should be functionally equivalent to a normal person looking around in the minutes just after the sun has set ("twilight" time), which should have been sufficient to run with.

I normally interpret "see where you're going" as "see the space where you will end your turn and all intermediate spaces". This typically means that darkvision is useless for running, and low-light vision depends on the brightness of your light source.

[Keltaris]

I have a question about the shadowy illumination offered by the moonlight (or the starlight):

How far can a human see in the aforementioned conditions? Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm) are provided radiuses for sources of light other than natural ones...

[Gwendol]

Since when are dwarves not able to see in the dark? And he was the one on duty. Seriously, he has the wisdom to have a decent perception roll, your dog has scent, which auto detects within 30' unless they are able to mask their scent somehow, and the dog can track (and has low-light vision).

[Ashtagon]

I have a question about the shadowy illumination offered by the moonlight (or the starlight):

How far can a human see in the aforementioned conditions? Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm) are provided radiuses for sources of light other than natural ones...

Well, my personal experience has been as follows:


Equatorial, no artificial light, no moon or cloud cover, an hour past sunset: I couldn't see my hand in front of my face. Walking was slowly and one step at a time, more by feel than by sight.
Same, but narrow crescent moon: Sufficient to see ground by my feet and maybe 30 feet beyond that. Enough to walk at full speed in familiar areas. Call it shadowy illumination out to 15 feet, and "a shape moved" out to 30 feet.
As above but quarter moon: Can see the horizon clearly. Shadowy illumination out to 300 feet in game terms.


Cloud cover would increase light levels after sunset for an hour or two, as it reflects light from areas that are still receiving direct sunlight. In areas of high artificial light, it'll also reflect man-made light sources.

Rules for torches and lanterns are good for night time use as well as dungeon use.

Starlight provides no useful amount of light for people with unexceptional vision.

-------------------------------------------------------

Warning: dead catgirls ahead. Proceed with caution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight

Human visual perception of illumination levels is logarithmic.

Day time, bright sun: 100,000 lux
Day time, noon, overcast: 10,000 lux
Sunrise/sunset, clear sky: 400 lux
Sunrise/sunset, overcast: 40 lux

All of the above are full illumination in D&D terms, and the 100,000 lux level is sufficient to cause penalties to orcs and drow.

Sunrise/sunset, extreme storm: 1 lux
Full moon, high altitude, equator: 1 lux
Full moon, temperate altitudes/latitudes: 0.25 lux
Quarter moon: 0.01 lux
Starlight with artificial lights in vicinity ("urban airglow"): 0.002 lux

The above provide some measure of shadowy illumination. The last one is rather rare, as it is unusual to have urban lights over the horizon and not also in direct line of sight.

Starlight, no artificial lights: 0.0002 lux

The above is not really suited for any kind of serious travel.

[Person_Man]

Pre-trained Guard dogs are only 25 gp each, plus 5 copper pieces a day to feed. Each of them is entitled to a Spot and Listen check with a +5 bonus, and they have Scent, low light vision, and Track.

Eagles and Hawks have a +16 to Spot and low light vision. Bats have +8 to Listen and Spot plus Blindsense. You can buy them and train them to Guard using Handle Animal. The Druid can also use Wild Empathy to convince animals you encounter to be Friendly, and then train them to Guard.

Buy a dozen or so guard dogs, and buy pet birds and bats as quickly as your party can train them. With 16+ Spot and Listen checks going on, nothing is likely to move into your camp undetected unless its DM fiat.

[Keltaris]

Since when are dwarves not able to see in the dark? And he was the one on duty. Seriously, he has the wisdom to have a decent perception roll, your dog has scent, which auto detects within 30' unless they are able to mask their scent somehow, and the dog can track (and has low-light vision).

The dwarf took Inattentive as his only flaw, so his perception rolls are usually abysmal considering he doesn't have any ranks in Spot/Listen and the dog was sleeping at the moment.

The thing that wasn't considered is that the rogues would have lost the concealment granted by shadowy illumination once within 60 ft from the dwarf.
They were coming up from behind him, but still...

Now that I have a better grasp on the low-light vision and normal vision with moonlight I think next time we'll fare better.

[Gwendol]

The dwarf took Inattentive as his only flaw, so his perception rolls are usually abysmal considering he doesn't have any ranks in Spot/Listen and the dog was sleeping at the moment.

The thing that wasn't considered is that the rogues would have lost the concealment granted by shadowy illumination once within 60 ft from the dwarf.
They were coming up from behind him, but still...

Now that I have a better grasp on the low-light vision and normal vision with moonlight I think next time we'll fare better.

The dog is sleeping, yes, but still breathing I hope? Scent doesn't rely on the beast being awake, it is "always" on.

[Jallorn]

Faerie Fire is a great spell for highlighting enemies. If you've got an invisible enemy: Bam, outline. If you've got hiding enemies: Bam, spotlight. Also, it highlights all creatures and objects within 400 ft + 40 ft/leve, and prevents everything short of magical darkness from providing concealment.

And hey, it's a first level Druid spell. Give everyone who can UMD a wand, and you should be solid.

[Keltaris]

The dog is sleeping, yes, but still breathing I hope? Scent doesn't rely on the beast being awake, it is "always" on.

Good to know.

Very good.

Is that bit about the beast not needing to be awake written somewhere? I don't think it's mentioned anywhere in the SRD. Well, at least not in the scent entry.

[Gwendol]

Scent
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.

I don't think it is explicitly mentioned, but on the other hand the opposite isn't either. I think what's important is the first part of the quoted text above. The ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies. There are no conditions set for this to happen although to detect direction it takes a move action, which requires the creature to be awake. To a creature with scent; the approach of an unfamiliar smell is similar to be awakened by a noise. Your ears don't stop functioning just because you are sleeping, you just don't register "normal" noise.

[ddude987]

I'll be honest and say I didn't read everyone else's posts but here is a solution:
1. You are 6th level, buy everburning torches, they are easily affordable
2. Campfire
3. Casters can cast light.

Instead of trying to solve the seeing in the dark problem by being able to see in the dark, simply turn the light into your favor.

[Keltaris]

I don't think it is explicitly mentioned, but on the other hand the opposite isn't either. I think what's important is the first part of the quoted text above. The ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies. There are no conditions set for this to happen although to detect direction it takes a move action, which requires the creature to be awake. To a creature with scent; the approach of an unfamiliar smell is similar to be awakened by a noise. Your ears don't stop functioning just because you are sleeping, you just don't register "normal" noise.

I'll leave this to the DM.


I'll be honest and say I didn't read everyone else's posts but here is a solution:
1. You are 6th level, buy everburning torches, they are easily affordable
2. Campfire
3. Casters can cast light.

Instead of trying to solve the seeing in the dark problem by being able to see in the dark, simply turn the light into your favor.

Liquid Sunlight is even better. Right now I have one on my Bard but once we get to a shop I'll buy 3-4 more.

[Ashtagon]

If I were your GM and you were lighting up your campsite like a Christmas tree, I'd ask for DC 10 Constitution checks to actually gain any useful sleep.