Grappler's in the party

[Toy Killer]

Now, I'm accustomed to making tailor made encounters when they matter.

But I've recently hit a wall with the grapple barbarian in our party. He has a whopping +24 grapple check in an E6 game, and I cant cut a break.

It seems, that since everything revolves around the grapple check in grappling (or an escape artist check, but that is pretty rare), he is either predetermined to win or lose any particular encounter he chooses to hug to death.

At first, I thought this was a case of giving him a little bit of leniency. Some times things really need to be grappled, other times things can't be grappled and he's just going to have to swing his scythe and be happy.

but with the last encounter I had, I presented a druid that was going to be summoning wolves into the encounter and Needed to be stopped to keep it from being a TPK. He gladly stepped up and grappled her, so I had her wild shape into a bear...

The bear couldn't step up to him. It only had a grapple check of +16 and was easily trounced by the barbarian. Now, I figured he was going to win one or two throw against it, but I didn't realize how much an 8 point swing (in hindsight i put it together) really makes.

I'm worried about him getting bored, as charging in and tackling foes definitely works, but I'm getting to a point that I have to flub foes with significantly powerful grapple builds just to keep up with him. which will make it fairly obvious that I'm undoing a lot of his personal optimization. Things he personally put work and effort into being.

But if I don't, he has nearly auto-success in a couple rounds (pin and then CdG, I ruled so that the party wasn't on their own for 6 rounds while he crushed the foe to death.). There are a few means to get out of grapples automatically (freedom of movement, comes to mind) but that just as much undermines his character as anything else.

I can challenge a melee build with a comparable AC to the Attack bonus and give him a mediocre chance of hitting back, forcing the Player to adjust tactics and find a means around. Or a high attack bonus and high damage out put with minimal defense, creating a kiting DPS race. But with grapple, it seems like it all revolves around being pinned or not being pinned and who has the higher +

Is there a means to challenge him, in a grapple, where he wants to be?

[WhatBigTeeth]

Multiple opponents, normal melee speedbumps like flight, invisibility or just difficult terrain, the occasional powerful grappling opponent, the occasional teleporting opponent or spellcasting opponents with feasible immediate action defenses?

[Callin]

anything with a damage aura or the like. spikes covered in poison or even just poison secretion.

[Studoku]

Throwing something 2 size categories larger than him at him would work, but it'd be difficult to find something gargantuan (I'm assuming he is or can become large when necessary) suitable for an E6 game. You could also try something incorporeal or with freedom of movement but, as you've said, that can look like you're trying to invalidate his character.

If the grapple build is that much of a problem, consider revoking your houserules which allow the barbarian to CdG pinned opponents. This way, if you throw multiple enemies at the party, the barbarian has to choose between dedicating all his actions keeping one enemy out of the fight or fighting normally.

[Namfuak]

Something that has swallow whole might feel "natural," as opposed to a creature made specifically for avoiding grapple, and I imagine something simple like a worm could be adjusted to be huge and still be appropriate for E6, since it's only real attack would be biting. Thus, the barbarian has to decide if risking being swallowed is worth grappling the thing, or if he should instead try to get out of the thing's jaws if necessary.

[nedz]

Freedom of Movement is a pretty strong NO to grappling, but that is hard to get in E6.

Having a caster cast Grease on his target, or even the Barbarian himself, should work.

[Vaz]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grapplemancer_(3.5e_Optimized_Build)

Best part; He's a Wizard on top of that.

I've not played EG; but if you're allowed Monsters higher than 6HD, take a Remorhaz. Around 12d6 Damage per turn while swallowed; compared to 6D12+Con? 41 Damage compared to ~57.

Possibly constrictors as well?

[Greenish]

But if I don't, he has nearly auto-success in a couple rounds (pin and then CdG, I ruled so that the party wasn't on their own for 6 rounds while he crushed the foe to death.). There are a few means to get out of grapples automatically (freedom of movement, comes to mind) but that just as much undermines his character as anything else.You can't CdG a pinned creature. :smallconfused:


Is there a means to challenge him, in a grapple, where he wants to be?Yes. Two enemies, preferably with SA. He grapples one, easily, and the other one stab-stab-stabs him.

[JusticeZero]

Out of curiosity, what is he using to get that check, and where exactly is the problem at? My understanding is that while grappling, you are just dishing out damage, not instant death. Locking down one character and doing damage over time to them is... not all that frightening, honestly. real grapplers have the same issue. Once the wrestling champ grabs the thug, the thug is helpless - so his buddies start kicking the wrestler in the face, because they can't really defend against other people. If you're grappling, you lose your dex bonus. So.. your answer really is just to have a bunch of ninja minions of some sort with sneak attack. He grabs the tough boss and takes them down.. sure fine. The minions start going to town on his back. The boss can't do anything but the grappler is getting shredded really bad. That's pretty balanced to me.
The Grapple rules are right here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) Allowable actions are: "damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check" (does basic unarmed attack damage, which for most people is 1d3), "use your opponent’s weapon against him", "move the grapple" and as a freebie, "prevent a pinned opponent from speaking". Nowhere in there is CdG listed; the grapple-ee is not helpless. Where is the CdG coming from?

[Vaz]

It's a houserule. It's even stated as such in his post. To quicken things up for the party.

[MirddinEmris]

While grappling, character is flat-footed, so you can use one big creature, who enter the grapple with barbarian by his own initiative (and maybe use some armor spikes and similar effects) and then a couple of rogues enter the field and start dishing damage to flat-footed barbarian.

[Greenish]

It's a houserule. It's even stated as such in his post. To quicken things up for the party.Hmm, it wasn't very clearly stated, so I assumed I'd misread it, since that's just silly. A fighter can beat things to death with a sword, but you don't grant him a free CdG to make things go faster for the party.

[JusticeZero]

Right; the "speed" comes from the fact that if the only thing standing is grappled, everyone can surround it and beat it into paste very quickly.

See, this sort've ruling and the consequences thereof are why I tell people "You're not half as clever as you think you are. Don't mess with stuff casually."

[Toy Killer]

Right, the party is a diplomancer bard, Sorcerer, a 'mostly' pacifist cleric, a long distance ranger and the barbarian.

The ranger can hold his own, the Cleric is capable of not dying in hand to hand, but one third of the party is pretty squishy. They are on a time crunch, out of combat healing is pretty limited, so the cleric drops a couple of buffs when necessary, but largely is a walking apothecary. against undead, he can turn like nobody's business, but for RP reasons, he isn't really well versed in combat.

The ranger is capable of fighting, but he has to rely on buffs to keep himself in toe-to-toe, given the number of encounters and the survival nature of the campaign, it makes it difficult to keep him buffed up and he is much much more effective when people aren't in his face.

like wise, the bard is able to get into close combat, but is better at providing escape routes (Darkness, grease, and the like on his spells list) when they need to run. Like V once said :vaarsuvius: "Being proficient doesn't mean capable".

So, I had to make a call, the only meat shield in the party is designed to deal 1d6+8 damage a round to the enemy, let him burn his actions on combat hugging his foes. while everyone else slowly backs away and runs without him, or let him drop foes after he's had them for two rounds (the first pinning them, the second, CdG while they're pinned). Seemed legit, and it reinforced the gritty feel of the survival campaign. If something grappled someone else, it immediately puts a clock on them for the rest of the party.

He picked up cleave as his first feat, and I had a scythe drop for him, so he doesn't have to slowly wait zombies to death.

His Grapple Bonus break down: 6 (BAB) + 4 (Improved Grapple) + 4 (Bear totem unnamed bonus while raging) + 2 (extra str bonus while raging) + 2 (Abberant Blood) + 2 (Bull's strength, typical buff from the sorcerer) +4 (Str bonus)

Admittedly, his standard is around +16 out of rage, no buff, but he has taken extra rage for his feat (the party gets one per day of survival).

I guess what it boils down to, is I feared for the party's survival, and made the Barbarian a fifty/fifty death machine. Now, it doesn't work with Undead/oozes/plants/constucts, as I have a hard time imagining someone snapping the neck of a zombie, but still.

The problem remains, either he wins flawlessly, or he loses.

[Piggy Knowles]

You're running into essentially the same problem that Save-or-Dies create. It takes a lot of the fun out of combat, instead reducing much of it to:

1. IMMUNE? (Y/N)
--If Y: Player feels useless and cheated.
--If N: Hurray! Next step!

2. DOES SAVE EXCEED DC? (Y/N)
--If Y: Player feels useless and cheated.
--If N: Enemy goes poof. Fleeting moment of victory followed by a vague feeling of anticlimax.

Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done without revising your houserule. You've essentially created an at-will save or die with an exceptionally high save DC. The multi-turn aspect can act as a balance point, but since the grappler also takes the enemy more or less out of the fight at the same time, it's not that big of a deal.

As discussed, there are a lot of things that can beat this. Freedom of Movement/Heart of Water/Travel domain clerics, undead/plant/construct enemies, incorporeal foes, teleporters, flying enemies, etc. But these are all hard counters, and as you mentioned, using them will completely eliminate the grappler's main schtick. Personally I don't think this is so terrible, since this is the same problem that SoD focused mages face, and E6 offers plenty of opportunities to learn new fighting styles if he gets bored with the current one.

Otherwise, the slightly softer counters of multiple foes, or enemies that can still be effective even while grappled (enemies that can deal decent damage even while grappled, psions and folks with SLAs that can work while grappling with a moderate Concentration check, etc.) is basically all you've got.

[JusticeZero]

Look, it's pretty obvious that your rule is not working balancewise. Running in and going Gracie on one guy only to leave the rest of the enemy to wreak havok is a tactical error. The only way it can be good is that most groups of foes, upon seeing a grapple happen, will start attacking the guy grappling their friend. This would mean the Grappler is holding some aggro at least, but is normally a poor tactic. It's only working now because of your crazy overpowered house rule.

So just revoke the house rule at the start of the session, and start the game as usual.
Then toss a fairly basic encounter at them. If the grappler wants to let the rest of the group get slaughtered for the sake of some wrestling then let them die. Don't do anything special to forestall an obviously easy encounter from knocking the party into the dirt. Let them flee. This encounter, they were fighting some enemy that was just chilling on their turf. If you run away they're fine with that. Hopefully while they're healing up they will go "..you know.. that tactic sucked.. we need to plan this better." Ground and pounding an enemy is a completely viable tactic in a team, but it needs to be done with some setup and finesse and strategy.

Also - did it never occur to you to have three or four grappling enemies grapple and CdG the other party members? This should be a regular threat they face with your current houserule.

Basically, if they don't want to drop the grappling houserule, the next encounter is against orcs with a boss. The grappler goes for the boss - the other orcs tackle and pin the rest of the party. Then when everyone is pinned, ask again "So, any thoughts about whether i should keep that rule about CdG out of a pin?"

[J-H]

Barbarian + grappled enemy - 1 square. Adjacent squares: 8
Possible bonus to grappled target from Aid Another by 8 wolves, summons, level 1 commoners, etc.: 16

[Slipperychicken]

A Riot (DMG2) would give him a run for his money, grapple-wise. +37 to Grapple, CR 8, and is composed of 48 or more angry human Commoners. Other creatures with the Mob template are similarly awesome at Grappling.

[Spuddles]

While grappling, character is flat-footed, so you can use one big creature, who enter the grapple with barbarian by his own initiative (and maybe use some armor spikes and similar effects) and then a couple of rogues enter the field and start dishing damage to flat-footed barbarian.

Yep. He will stop grappling real quick after he takes 5d6 sneak attack to the kidneys a few times.

[Shaynythyryas]

IIRC, a grapple check needs a succeeded touched attack first, and there are a few ways to give a char insane touch AC : high dex, 2lvl wilder dip (+1 lvl battledance dip if you want, but that's subject to discussion), high deflection...
Also, don't underestimate the possiblity to greatly optimize an escape artist check.

[MirddinEmris]

Yes, skill boosting is easy, so Escape Artist is a good idea (don't forget about couple interesting tricks from Complete Scoundrel, one let you escape grapple as swift action and another let you attack after grapple treating your target flat-footed). A rogue character, oiled from head to toe, and with great checks on EA will make a nice adversary to your barbarian.

P.S. But you have got to spot yourself from donning masks on them and shout luchador moves in fight))

[Gwendol]

The houserule is more than just a little strange. There are some grapple related feats in Oriental Adventures that I recommend you take a close look at: choke hold and earth's embrace. Both of them offer a more balanced way for resolving grapples.

[Aran Thule]

His Grapple Bonus break down: 6 (BAB) + 4 (Improved Grapple) + 4 (Bear totem unnamed bonus while raging) + 2 (extra str bonus while raging) + 2 (Abberant Blood) + 2 (Bull's strength, typical buff from the sorcerer) +4 (Str bonus)


Looking at this i think the easiest solution is simply to remove the house rule.
From the break down you posted it seems that +6 of the bonus comes from his raging.
How many times can he rage and how long does it last?
So they rage and grapple to start a fight, (assuming 16 con would give 8 rounds raging time i think) they then have 7 rounds to finish off the combat before the rage runs out and they loose 7 points on their grapple attack.

It might slow things down but it will make things more interesting as they have to race against the clock before their main fighter weakens.

As others have mentioned the grippers defences are weak while grappling so multiple foes would be effective, also consider having more encounters before allowing a rest or have a group attack while the Barb is still fatigued.

[Menzath]

heart of water is a 3rd level spell, it can give freedom of movement. that should significantly hinder him.
And when that fails.. fog cloud or something of the same sort. hard to touch what you cannot see. I think illusionary wall is to high level, but maybe something similiar.

[Magesmiley]

One other option I haven't seen mentioned is terrain. If the grappler can't reach his opponent, it makes a big difference. Have some fun with mixing up the terrain and making it difficult for the barbarian to reach his/her foe.

Another tactic is to toss a couple of ranks of cannon fodder in front of the primary target, which have to be overcome before the main target can be grappled.

[Mnemnosyne]

My suggestion would be to simply admit the house rule with the coup de graces was a mistake, tell the player you're rescinding that rule, and that if he wants to he can make any changes to his character for free, since he presumably built the character with the expectation that rule would be in effect. Allow him to rebuild his character if he wants, then proceed with the real rules.

[Urpriest]

I think I missed something. What was the problem with just using multiple enemies? The guy has to think tactically about who to grapple, while the rest of the party goes after the rest of the fight, or the guy decides not to grapple because he's better off trying to use Cleave or the like. I mean, you should be using multiple enemies anyway...

[Toy Killer]

Thank you all for your input.

I will talk to the Barb about revoking the CdG house rule. The character wasn't made with CdGing in mind, but simply sped up the combat so he could be dynamic and help the party as the meat shield. I may give him a feat to help make up for it; As it stands, either the opponents were weak enough to die after a few rounds or they were as good as dead anyway.

I whole heatedly hate the 30x30 room + Monster encounter, and make good use of multi-level terrain, but two of my players are new. So for now, it's mostly level with some debris here and there.

The party does involve multiple combatants, typically, but the last encounter was a Devil with a druid for his 'Animal Companion'. I expected the druid to be able to go toe to toe with the Grappler and was very wrong (Those few buffs from rage and Bulls strength was a huge swing I should have but wasn't prepared for), but she was going to summon more mobs as the encounter progressed and was never given the opportunity. I was hesitant to start the encounter with mobs already summoned, as the area was full of innocents, and one of my players, who is newer to Role playing games, would have dropped a fireball as his first reaction to seeing numerous foes.

Grease, Heart of Water and Escape artist will be used from time to time, just to break up monotony and force the player to push his comfort zones on occasion.

I've been meaning to get a need for the Mob template in action, and a herd of Zombies being grappled is just too good to let up...

[JusticeZero]

It isn't your job to protect the party from their own mistakes. If the wizard tosses a fireball stupidly, let the consequences happen all out. You might try "Are you sure? You'll hit all these guys.." first, but if he goes for it anyways, let the smoking bodies pile up. Friendly fire isn't. Likewise, if the grappler locks down an enemy and leaves the minions to wreak havok on the support, let the screams of his support members ring in his ears.

Also, i'm sure that people will be happy to get rid of the CdG rule the moment enemies decide to open by grappling the other characters who arent grappling specialists.

[Toy Killer]

It isn't your job to protect the party from their own mistakes. If the wizard tosses a fireball stupidly, let the consequences happen all out.

Of course, (In fact, it didn't change much of the out come, he still intentionally lit one on fire anyway. long story, featured below) but it is my job to allow a story to unfold. I don't have to protect the PCs, and I can let them die, and I intend to, but thematically, while the two of my players are still getting their feet wet and the plot is starting to interweave between them, killing them off for poor playing mechanically (rather then realistically) encourages them to peel away from the hand outs on their own world, and pour back into their character sheets.

D&D is the engine I use to regulate combat, but the engine is part of a larger structure. I am more focused on the story behind the fight then the fight itself. The players know their place in my world, and their story they are telling together. I am not new to the concept of DMing, nor how to manage combat, just simply one aspect that didn't come up often. It was put, (Brilliantly, I might add, by Piggy Knowles) that it was akin to Save or Dies in the party. However, the Grapple Barb didn't have spell slots or other limiters.

I will revoke it, but I wouldn't be against him taking martial study (?) for Crushing Weight of the Mountain, in it's place. The question was how to challenge a Save or Die. The answer turned out to be that I wasn't going to. But weather he kills them in two turns or seven is only mildly important compared to the fact that he has an irrevocable edge as soon as he get his arms around a foe.

I can challenge that, If the foe has time to survive to utilize the tools against the Death-Hug barbarian.

-=-=-=-

So, The party encounters a man that is slowly turning into a wax candle (I have a thread about candle minions elsewhere, but it was in prelude to this encounter). Finding out he was a follower of Palor, and the cleric of the Palor's healing was useless against the transformation they went to investigate the source. The victim was able to tell them that they were skewered with wicks and they slowly turn into wax, fire would melt them horrifically and painfully.

They found him in an old church of Palor, with a handful of survivors slowly turning into wax. The Cleric ran to swing against the Candle Man, the Barbarian grappled his Druid, Bard played some tasty rifts, Candle Man blew out the lights (Gust of Wind) and retreated. The area was pitch black with a Deeper Darkness spell (And the cleric didn't have Day light prepared). Barbarian was already in grapple, didn't need to see. The cleric has a potion of Ebon Eyes, just needed to pull it out. The Ranger gleefully threw an action point down for Blind Fighting, running in to close the gap (On his initive order, he couldn't charge on the basis that he was running blind in the dark through uneven terrain). The bard is outside, rocking out. No body needed to see that wasn't able too.

Sorcerer takes it upon himself to light 'Just one' of the innocents on fire to see if it would illuminate in the darkness.

Now, this is a classic example of thinking things like a video game, not a story. He was right, it did work. But the point was the Candle Man forcing them into a situation to decide if they would risk someone's well being to be able to protect them. He was supposed to force a hard choice on the players. But the sorcerer wanted to see if it would work.

They successfully drove him off (Candle Man is going to be an ongoing villian for them), finding a scroll of Wax To Flesh with 'Where's your Bird?' scribbled across it (The Ranger is pretty upset about losing his animal companion in his back story). They used it on the 4 year old girl Sorcerer decided to light up, and took her with them as the rest of the people riled in anger at the parties decision. I fully expect her, Monica, actually, to have repercussions later in the story.

[Greenish]

I will talk to the Barb about revoking the CdG house rule. The character wasn't made with CdGing in mind, but simply sped up the combat so he could be dynamic and help the party as the meat shield. I may give him a feat to help make up for it; As it stands, either the opponents were weak enough to die after a few rounds or they were as good as dead anyway.Actions are the most valuable currency of the combat, and you just gave them away? :smallamused:

[JusticeZero]

By your own description the problem is not the "inevitability of the barbarian winning" that is the problem. It is the way you powered up that barbarian in an attempt to protect the rest of the party from the consequences of the barbarian misusing that ability when it is tactically foolish to do so and taking himself out of the fight. And you powered up the barbarian in a way that ensures a near TPK against many enemies, because some monsters WILL grapple the cleric, sorcerer, etc while the barbarian is otherwise occupied, and with your CdG rule, those characters will die too fast to save.

[Toy Killer]

It seems, that since everything revolves around the grapple check in grappling (or an escape artist check, but that is pretty rare), he is either predetermined to win or lose any particular encounter he chooses to hug to death.

At first, I thought this was a case of giving him a little bit of leniency. Some times things really need to be grappled, other times things can't be grappled and he's just going to have to swing his scythe and be happy.

I'm worried about him getting bored

There are a few means to get out of grapples automatically (freedom of movement, comes to mind) but that just as much undermines his character as anything else.

But with grapple, it seems like it all revolves around being pinned or not being pinned and who has the higher +

Is there a means to challenge him, in a grapple, where he wants to be?

Emphasis mine; admittedly I removed a lot of the original post but left the core complaints I presented to the Forum for clerity.


By your own description the problem is not the "inevitability of the barbarian winning" that is the problem.

By my own Description, His ability to kill things quickly wasn't the problem. Chances already were if they were locked in grapple with him, they were dead in due time.

The difference is weather or not it took 2 rounds or 7. I do want the party to survive, with the characters they want to play. I even allowed a Diplomancer in a post apocalypse game. I can challenge them, all of them, the do/do not aspect of grappling is what I was looking for a remedy for.


But if I don't, he has nearly auto-success in a couple rounds (pin and then CdG, I ruled so that the party wasn't on their own for 6 rounds while he crushed the foe to death.). There are a few means to get out of grapples automatically (freedom of movement, comes to mind) but that just as much undermines his character as anything else.

I get that this seems like the complaint, but the Meat of the matter was the win/lose based on what grapple modifier the monster has.

[Greenish]

By my own Description, His ability to kill things quickly wasn't the problem. Chances already were if they were locked in grapple with him, they were dead in due time.

The difference is weather or not it took 2 rounds or 7.:smallconfused:

[Toy Killer]

I do want the party to survive, with the characters they want to play.

:smallamused:

If it takes him 7 rounds to kill one enemy, while the party is dealing with the other 5 (or whatever) either I have to play him against his own build by having him attacked, threaten to kill the party (who have a tough time taking damage) or force him to decide to drop what he's doing to do something he didn't want to play.

House ruling the CdG fixes that problem.

Even with the CdG in effect, he still either wins or loses based on who has the higher +. Now (without the CdG) he just has other problems keeping him from playing what he wanted to play in the first place.

[JusticeZero]

If it takes him 7 rounds to kill one enemy, while the party is dealing with the other 5 (or whatever) either I have to play him against his own build by having him attacked, threaten to kill the party (who have a tough time taking damage) or force him to decide to drop what he's doing to do something he didn't want to play.Except that what you just said is exactly why his grappling is not unbalanced. He can still grapple, but he needs to set it up better to deal with those tactical problems. Once again, it is not your job to make the game work for whatever goofy thing they want to do. If I want to become a Master of Pillow Fighting, I need to find some way to actually make that tactically and mechanically work against reasonably intelligent enemies. I cant just expect to pout at the GM and make everything deathly allergic to goose feathers.
House ruling the CdG fixes that problem.At the cost of making him a freaking GOD OF WRESTLY WWF DEATH that you then feel the need to come here to try to find ways of dealing with.

And also making you have to dumb down the encounters so that minions don't use a completely reasonable attack that normally would help shut down pesky support characters without slaughtering them - except now, it would slaughter them because they would get CdG'ed.

That isn't a fix. You have outclevered yourself by far.
Even with the CdG in effect, he still either wins or loses based on who has the higher +. But as noted, it ties him up for quite awhile - which means that it's not an overpowered tactic. And it's still perfectly valid for a lot of enemies, once the rest of the party can work out some better tactical planning to set it up.

[Quietus]

How's his Will save? An occasional solution could be to throw Calm Emotions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm) at him, which would take him out of his rage while the caster concentrates. That drops the big Ragebonus to grapple out of the picture, at least temporarily.

[Sith_Happens]

Seconding "no more coup-de-gras on pin." Seconding it hard. That house rule is the entirety of your problem.

[Gwendol]

Did you take a look at the feats I mentioned? They should give you an idea or two how to balance the grappling, while still not making it a niche tactic.

[Toy Killer]

He can still grapple, but he needs to set it up better to deal with those tactical problems. Once again, it is not your job to make the game work for whatever goofy thing they want to do.

This seems to be the core of our disagreement. I'm considering it two different DMing styles. For the same reason I wouldn't throw Dungeons full of traps in a party with no means of detecting traps, just because any reasonable dungeon lord would, doesn't mean it will be fun for the players.

I'm not against using traps, and quite frankly, it would make for some interesting encounters. If I had a player that wanted to be a trapsmith extraordinaire, I will gladly throw extra into the mix, so he has value to the party.

Furthermore, I could defeat him by throwing down a monster with a +30 grapple mod. It's not impossible, hell a huge zombie would be able to with enough Str and natural grab.

But then he feels useless, not challenged. I might as well have thrown a flying monster against him with eye beams. that's not a challengeing the player, that's holding my player under a magnifying glass saying 'Ha ha! I'm the DM!'.

Ignore the Coup De Grace, I am vetoing it anyway.

Challenging the player is putting them into situations where they need to use their abilities in new ways. An Archer having to duck and weave in cover to attack a spell caster with a poor concentration, laying down BC spells over the party. That's challenging the player. He could have a wind wall and make the Archer useless, why not? It's totally viable, and a smart spellcaster would if he can! I could throw a high AC monster into an encounter, forcing him to rely on single shots rather then volleys, challenging him to push out of his comfortable boundaries. Having the AC so high even his single shots can't be used? He might as well have taken Skill Focus: Basketweaving, it doesn't change anything.

Grappling is different from archery though. It only works close range, and it revolves around a single score both the monster and the character have. who ever has the highest may not always win the check, but a couple bonuses higher and the game is set.

I don't want to punish his concept through the party, nor do I want alienate his build as being useless because he never gets to use it without endangering the party.


How's his Will save? An occasional solution could be to throw Calm Emotions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm) at him, which would take him out of his rage while the caster concentrates. That drops the big Ragebonus to grapple out of the picture, at least temporarily.

This is perfect, actually, I had a boss concept who was based on substance abuse but couldn't figure a way to instill lethargy in the party. Calm Emotions and some addicts to wrestle him down, maybe with a general Str or Dex hampering aura. Works for me.


Did you take a look at the feats I mentioned? They should give you an idea or two how to balance the grappling, while still not making it a niche tactic.

I did, I'm sorry I left it out of my general statement. I ran Earth's Embrace by him before as a good feat for grapplers, but I don't remember why he didn't want it (I only implimented the house rule shortly after the first game, so it wasn't that he didn't need it).

I plan on using Choke Hold on a devil that can out grapple him, though that will be much later.

[Vaz]

A level 3 Wizard can get exactly the same result as this Barbarian in a rage, AND you can still cast Calm emotion on him.

Or, go Polymorph>Remorhaz, Improved Grapple, Swallow whole, jobs a good'un, boss.

[Slipperychicken]

This is perfect, actually, I had a boss concept who was based on substance abuse but couldn't figure a way to instill lethargy in the party. Calm Emotions and some addicts to wrestle him down, maybe with a general Str or Dex hampering aura. Works for me.


A number of spells apply the Exhausted and Fatigued conditions. The first E6-friendly one which comes to mind is Ray of Exhaustion (save/Exhaust, Fatigue on successful save).

Also, the Grapple-Barbarian is kind of a one-trick pony. He ought to have something else going for him, like melee damage. That way, you could challenge both aspects of his combat ability.

[Krobar]

Give a bad guy Close Quarters Fighting and make him awesome at punching.

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/close-quarters-fighting--365/


Benefit
You gain an attack of opportunity whenever an enemy attempts to grapple you, even if the enemy has a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack. If you deal damage with this attack, the enemy fails to start the grapple unless it has the Improved Grapple feat or a special ability such as improved grab. If the enemy has such an ability, you may add the damage you deal as a bonus on your opposed check to resist being grappled. This feat does not give you extra attacks of opportunity during a round or allow you to make an attack of opportunity when you would be denied one for being surprised, helpless, or in a similar situation. For example, an ogre attempts to grapple Tordek. Tordek gains an attack of opportunity, hits, and causes damage. Since the ogre does not have any sort of grappling special ability or feat, it fails to start a grapple. Then an ankheg--a creature with the improved grab special ability--attempts to grapple Tordek. He takes an attack of opportunity, hits, and deals 10 points of damage to the creature. Tordek then adds +10 to his opposed check to resist being grappled.


You end up with the classic grappler vs. puncher match, and the puncher will have a very strong chance of shutting down his grapple attempts if you've built him right.

[Kristinn]

I just want to chime in with a quick agreement to revoking the house rule. Grappling is a powerful mechanic to disable a single foe. Disable. Not kill outright. Killing outright is overpowered.

This you can very easily demonstrate to the party. by having them encounter, lets say, a group of primitive, non-tool using barbarian ogres, who proceed to successfully grapple every single member of the adventuring group (with the possible exception of the barbarian).

Before next round plays out, have a calm discussion with your players, as to whether they are comfortable with the grappling rules, as you've house ruled them.

[Sith_Happens]

Ignore the Coup De Grace, I am vetoing it anyway.

Challenging the player is putting them into situations where they need to use their abilities in new ways.

Now that the CdG rule is gone he will in fact have to "use his abilities in new ways." The old way being two-round-killing everything one by one, the new way being that whenever there's more than one enemy he needs to think about which one he wants to grab and how long he wants to keep it up and basically give the others free reign.

[Toy Killer]

Now that the CdG rule is gone he will in fact have to "use his abilities in new ways." The old way being two-round-killing everything one by one, the new way being that whenever there's more than one enemy he needs to think about which one he wants to grab and how long he wants to keep it up and basically give the others free reign.

Seriously, for the hundredth time, The CdG hasn't been the problem.

In the 7-10 encounter's we've had, He's used it thrice mid combat. Granted, I don't want any party member to die until after Gate's head so combats haven't been strenuous. A handful of like numbered mobs getting people used to the combat system.

a couple he didn't even have an opportunity to use grappling in the first place.

It's just the fact that if he says he's grappling, he knows he's golden. It's A done deal, he's legit. If he didn't have a means to grapple the foe (flying or just simply a superior grappler, like a Remorhaz) he just nickles and dimes away.

I agree with the fact that if I intend to make grappling dynamic in any sense, I have to allot for longer durations then 2. I got it. I agree.

Now it's a matter of targeting How he gets the grapple score, rather then going through grapple mechanics. I can roll with that.

[JusticeZero]

the grappler being golden IF there's no minions to peel him off and IF the enemy has no touch attacks or magic backup tricks is a lot of "if".

[Slipperychicken]

the grappler being golden IF there's no minions to peel him off and IF the enemy has no touch attacks or magic backup tricks is a lot of "if".

It's just another reason "solo boss"-encounters don't work in 3.5.

[Darrin]

Some things I would try against the ubergrappler:

Illusions. Barbs tend to have low Will saves.

Invisibility. Particularly on a summoner.

Huge creatures should have a comparable grapple bonus. Rhemoraz, tendriculos, monstrous scorpion should be a decent match.

A couple gelatinous cubes with acidborn sharks inside. Try grappling that!

Actually any ooze could be an interesting encounter.

Swarms. Cranium rats look really creepy.

Fang golem. Any other creature that explodes on death.

Shadows. Any incorporeal undead, actually.

[Sith_Happens]

the grappler being golden IF there's no minions to peel him off and IF the enemy has no touch attacks or magic backup tricks is a lot of "if".

This is basically what I'm trying to say. As long he has to use his grappling abilities tactically it's okay to let them work the vast majority of the time.

[ArcturusV]

Well, since you're house ruling stuff anyway? Go with a logical sort of thing. Give enemies you don't want Grapple Killed ("PILEDRIVER! PILEDRIVER! PILEDRIVER!") a simple dagger. Rule that because of the close quarters, not being able to dodge because you're Grappling and locked up, etc, the Dagger does significantly more damage with a simple 10+Armor Worn AC. I do mean significantly more, like 4d4 with x5 crits.

Suddenly it adds a new tactical dimension. If he wants to go around piledriving and suplexing enemies to death he needs to think, check that he's not going to get shived trying to do it, maybe disarm them or disable them in such a way they can't do it.

I mean the dagger thing won't really slow down his Grapple Unto Death train of doom... but it does mean for that one turn between "You grabbed me" and "you pinned and CdGed me" that he is probably in real danger.