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LordErebus12
2013-03-25, 08:39 PM
I had an idea... What if spellcasting (divine and arcane) were completely pulled from the classes? Non-casters can suddenly cast spells to an extent?

This doesn't mean all magic becomes more powerful, in fact I intend to make it harder to cast spells, overall. It merely opens up more versatility, with its own design issues. Lets face it, though, no system will be perfect, although we should still strive for it.

Edits in DarkOrange

Skill Changes
UMD and Spellcraft merge and hold greater importance and use for casters. Spellcraft is a class skill to all classes, without exception.

The new "Spellcraft" is governed by the chosen magical type's ability. Arcane magic is governed by Intelligence. Nature magic is governed by Wisdom. Divine magic is governed by Charisma.

The ability to cast a spell requires a successful spellcraft check. Without a successful spellcraft check, the spell fails but the spell slot per day is not expended. This is often known as a "fizzled spell". The Spellcraft DC required to cast a spell is 15 + (spell level x 3).

Spell Level|Spellcraft DC
1st|18
2nd|21
3rd|24
4th|27
5th|30
6th|33
7th|36
8th|39
9th|42

Casters cannot take 10 on spellcraft checks to cast spells or to use magical items, unless otherwise allowed through class features, etc.

Creatures cannot use Spellcraft untrained.

Spontaneous and Prepared Spells:
Every caster becomes Spontaneous. Classes such as clerics and wizards no longer need to prepare spells ahead of time.

Racial levels and Casters:
Characters that have racial levels and spellcaster levels do not stack the totals for base attack progression for caster level, spells known or spells per day. For example, a Minotaur with 6 racial levels and 4 levels of wizard is counted as having a +8 Base Attack Bonus (+2 from wizard, +6 from racial) but only has a caster level of 4th and uses the half-base attack bonus progression as if he only had levels in wizard.

Monsters are not changed by these rule changes. Treat caster level, spell-like abilities, etc. as exactly they are stated. Monsters like Rakshasa or Dragons that cast as a sorcerer of such level follows the standard rules, as normal.

Major Class changes: (will be expanded upon below)

Wizards: Wizards treat their spellbooks, wands, rods, or staves as focuses for all spellcasting and are like artificers in many ways. Wizards can read directly from the spellbook without fear of the spell being expended like a scroll would. They have mastered magical item creation.

Clerics: Clerics lose their medium base attack progression to maintain full casting abilities, gaining half progression. Good Clerics gain better healing abilities (or damaging abilities for evil clerics), such as ranged cure (or inflict) spells and a healing over time aura or frightful presence aura. They also gain X+3 domain spells per day, instead of X+1 domain spells per day.

Sorcerers: Sorcerers become masters of using magical items with deadly potency, capable of using their own inner power for the casting of spells through magical items. They can use their own power instead of burn charges with magical items. They also channel their own caster level into the magical items, using either their own or the item's caster level, which ever is higher.

Druids: Druids, sadly, will get a little weaker as far as casting is concerned. Their medium base attack progression limits their ability to cast higher level spells. This is a fair exchange as they have animal companions and wild shaping.

Prestige Class Changes

If the PrC is full-casting, it gets half BAB.
If it's partial-to-half-casting, it gets 3/4.
If it gets less than half or no casting, it gets full BAB.
For Gish classes (such as eldritch knight), add a special 'gish bonus' to all attacks at appropriate levels to bring effective attack bonus to full again.


Choice of Magic Types:
All characters choose either arcane, divine, or nature upon creation.
That character may only manifest that specific magic type, unless another is gained from another source.

Base Attack Progression Tables:
Base attack bonus progression would dictate spells per day, meaning a full Base attack bonus character would have less ability to cast, than a half Base attack bonus character.

{table=head]{colsp=6}Full Base Attack Bonus and Spells Per Day
Level| Attack Bonus | 0| 1st| 2nd | 3rd
1st | +1 |-|-|-|-
2nd | +2 |-|-|-|-
3rd | +3 |-|-|-|-
4th | +4 |0|-|-|-
5th | +5 |0|-|-|-
6th | +6 |1|0|-|-
7th | +7 |1|0|-|-
8th | +8 |1|1|-|-
9th | +9 |1|1|0|-
10th | +10 |1|1|1|-
11th | +11 |1|1|1|-
12th | +12 |1|1|1|0
13th | +13 |1|1|1|1
14th | +14 |2|1|1|1
15th | +15 |2|1|1|1
16th | +16 |2|2|1|1
17th | +17 |2|2|2|1
18th | +18 |3|3|2|1
19th | +19 |3|3|3|2
20th | +20 |3|3|3|3
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=9}3/4th Base Attack Bonus and Spells Per Day
Level| Attack Bonus | 0| 1st| 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th |
6th
1st | +0 |2|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd | +1 |3|0|-|-|-|-|-
3rd | +2 |3|1|-|-|-|-|-
4th | +3 |3|2|0|-|-|-|-
5th | +3 |3|3|1|-|-|-|-
6th | +4 |3|3|2|-|-|-|-
7th | +5 |3|3|2|0|-|-|-
8th | +6 |3|3|3|1|-|-|-
9th | +6 |3|3|3|2|-|-|-
10th | +7 |3|3|3|2|0|-|-
11th | +8 |3|3|3|3|1|-|-
12th | +9 |3|3|3|3|2|-|-
13th | +9 |3|3|3|3|2|0|-
14th | +10 |4|3|3|3|3|1|-
15th | +11 |4|4|3|3|3|2|-
16th | +12 |4|4|4|3|3|2|0
17th | +12 |4|4|4|4|3|3|1
18th | +13 |4|4|4|4|4|3|2
19th | +14 |4|4|4|4|4|4|3
20th | +15 |4|4|4|4|4|4|4
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=12}Half Base Attack Bonus and Spells Per Day
Level| Attack Bonus | 0| 1st| 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th |
6th|
7th|
8th|
9th
1st | +0 |5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd | +1 |6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd | +1 |6|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th | +2 |6|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th | +2 |6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th | +3 |6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th | +3 |6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-
8th | +4 |6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-
9th | +4 |6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-
10th | +5 |6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-
11th | +5 |6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-
12th | +6 |6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-
13th | +6 |6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-
14th | +7 |6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-
15th | +7 |6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-
16th | +8 |6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-
17th | +8 |6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-
18th | +9 |6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
19th | +9 |6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
20th | +10 |6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5
[/table]

Spells and Caster Level:
Add together levels in each type of BAB progression (full, partial, or half) for the purpose of spells-per-day progression. For each progression, count the number of spells per spell-level, and gain the better number for that level. For example, a paladin 7/fighter 3 who gains a single level of cleric would thus have 5/3/1 spells, five 0-level and three 1st-level from one level of cleric, and one 2nd level from the ten levels of paladin and fighter, which have been added together.

Caster Levels and Multiclassing:
Multiclassed characters with full base attack bonus progression have no actual caster level until 4th level. If the character has no caster level and gains one from another class, their totals stack, even though it normally wouldnt. For instance, if a 3rd level fighter gains a level in wizard, the character's caster level would be equal to his class level, not just 1.

LordErebus12
2013-03-25, 08:40 PM
Cleric
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: 1d8

Class Skills
The Cleric's class skills are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana / history / religion / the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (---).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]{colsp=8}Table: The Cleric
Level| Attack Bonus | Fort | Ref | Will |
Good Special|
Evil Special|
Vitality / Pain Pool

1 | +0 |{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+2 | Domains (2), Turn Undead, Vitality Pool | Domains (2), Pain Pool, Rebuke Undead|5
2 | +1 |{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+3 | Cure Wounds (Light)| Inflict Wounds (Light) |10
3 | +1 |{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+3 | Mercy | Cruelty |15
4 | +2 |{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+4 | Protective Barrier|Protective Barrier |20
5 | +2 |{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+4 | Cure Mass Wounds (Light) | Inflict Mass Wounds (Light) |25

6 | +3 |{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+5 |Mercy | Cruelty |30
7 | +3 |{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+5 || |40
8 | +4 |{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+6 | Cure Wounds (Moderate)| Inflict Wounds (Moderate) |50
9 | +4 |{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+6 | Mercy | Cruelty |60
10 | +5 |{colsp=1}
+7|{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+7 |Healing Ray (Close)| Damaging Ray (Close) |70

11 | +5 |{colsp=1}
+7|{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+7 | Cure Mass Wounds (Moderate)| Inflict Mass Wounds (Moderate) |80
12 | +6/+1 |{colsp=1}
+8|{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+8 |Mercy | Cruelty |100
13 | +6/+1 |{colsp=1}
+8|{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+8 | Reflective Barrier| Reflective Barrier|120
14 | +7/+2 |{colsp=1}
+9|{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+9 | Cure Wounds (Serious)| Inflict Wounds (Serious) |140
15 | +7/+2 |{colsp=1}
+9|{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+9 | Healing Ray (Medium)| Damaging Ray (Medium) |160

16 | +8/+3 |{colsp=1}
+10|{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+10 || |200
17 | +8/+3 |{colsp=1}
+10|{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+10 | Cure Mass Wounds (Serious)| Inflict Mass Wounds (Serious) |240
18 | +9/+4 |{colsp=1}
+11|{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+11 || |280
19 | +9/+4 |{colsp=1}
+11|{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+11 | ||320
20 | +10/+5 |{colsp=1}
+12|{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+12 | Healing Ray (Long)| Damaging Ray (Long) |360
[/table]

Class Features
The following are the class features of the Cleric.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, with all types of armor (light, medium, and heavy), and with shields (except tower shields). Wearing armor or shields causes arcane spells to suffer an arcane spell failure. Wearing metal armor or metal shields causes natural spells to automatically fail.

A cleric who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to his deityís weapon as a bonus feat. He also receives the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat as a bonus feat, if the weapon falls into that category.

Aura (Ex):
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deityís alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who donít worship a specific deity but choose the Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells:
A clericís deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected. With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells:
A cleric canít cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deityís (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su):
Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast cure or inflict abilities (see below).

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

Bonus Languages:
A clericís bonus language options include Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal (the languages of good, chaotic evil, and lawful evil outsiders, respectively). These choices are in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of his race.

Vitality Pool:
Beginning at 2nd level, a good cleric can heal extra damage from larger wounds (her own or those of others). Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to the number on the cleric table for her level. A cleric may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once. Using this pool is a free action, declared before rolling dice for healing abilities of the cleric.

Alternatively, a good cleric can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. The good cleric decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.

Pain Pool:
Beginning at 2nd level, an evil cleric can deal extra damage when inflicting wounds with negative energy. Each day she can deal a total number of extra hit points of damage equal to the number on the cleric table for her level. A cleric may choose to divide her extra damage among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once. Using this pool is a free action, declared before rolling dice for damaging abilities of the cleric.

Alternatively, an evil cleric can use any or all of this damaging power to heal damage to undead creatures. The evil cleric decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as healing after successfully touching an undead creature.

Cure Wounds (Light) (Su):
At 2nd level, good clerics can heal wounds with a mere touch. This ability requires a successful touch attack; if successful, the ability deals 1d8 + Caster level positive energy to the target. Positive energy heals hit points of most living creatures and inflicts damage to most undead creatures.

Inflict Wounds (Light) (Su):
At 2nd level, evil clerics can inflict wounds with a mere touch. This ability requires a successful touch attack; if successful, the ability deals 1d8 + Caster level negative energy to the target. Negative energy damages most living creatures and heals wounds of most undead creatures.

Mercy (Su):
At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, a Good cleric can select one mercy. Each mercy adds an effect to the Good cleric's cure wounds and cure mass wounds abilities. Whenever the Good cleric uses cure wounds or cure mass wounds to heal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effects from all of the mercies possessed by the Good cleric. A mercy can remove a condition caused by a curse, disease, or poison without curing the affliction. Such conditions return after 1 hour unless the mercy actually removes the affliction that causes the condition.

At 3rd level, the Good cleric can select from the following initial mercies.

Fatigued: The target is no longer fatigued.
Shaken: The target is no longer shaken.
Sickened: The target is no longer sickened.


At 6th level, a Good cleric adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected.

Dazed: The target is no longer dazed.
Diseased: The Good cleric's lay on hands ability also acts as remove disease, using the Good cleric's level as the caster level.
Staggered: The target is no longer staggered, unless the target is at exactly 0 hit points.


At 9th level, a Good cleric adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected.

Cursed: The Good cleric's cure also acts as remove curse, using the Good cleric's level as the caster level.
Exhausted: The target is no longer exhausted. The Good cleric must have the fatigue mercy before selecting this mercy.
Frightened: The target is no longer frightened. The Good cleric must have the shaken mercy before selecting this mercy.
Nauseated: The target is no longer nauseated. The Good cleric must have the sickened mercy before selecting this mercy.
Poisoned: The Good cleric's lay on hands ability also acts as neutralize poison, using the Good cleric's level as the caster level.


At 12th level, a Good cleric adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected.

Blinded: The target is no longer blinded.
Deafened: The target is no longer deafened.
Paralyzed: The target is no longer paralyzed.
Stunned: The target is no longer stunned.


These abilities are cumulative. For example, a 12th-level Good cleric's cure light wounds ability heals 1d8+12 points of damage and might also cure Fatigued and Exhausted conditions as well as removing diseases and neutralizing poisons. Once a condition or spell effect is chosen, it can't be changed.

Cruelty (Su):
At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, an evil cleric can select one cruelty. Each cruelty adds an effect to the evil clericís inflict wounds and inflict mass wounds abilities. Whenever the evil cleric uses those abilities to deal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effect from one of the cruelties possessed by the evil cleric. This choice is made when the touch is used. The target receives a Fortitude save to avoid this cruelty. If the save is successful, the target takes the damage as normal, but not the effects of the cruelty. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the evil clericís level + the evil clericís Charisma modifier.

At 3rd level, the evil cleric can select from the following initial cruelties.

Fatigued: The target is fatigued.
Shaken: The target is shaken for 1 round per level of the evil cleric.
Sickened: The target is sickened for 1 round per level of the evil cleric.


At 6th level, an evil cleric adds the following cruelties to the list of those that can be selected.

Dazed: The target is dazed for 1 round.
Diseased: The target contracts a disease, as if the evil cleric had cast contagion, using his evil cleric level as his caster level.
Staggered: The target is staggered for 1 round per two levels of the evil cleric.


At 9th level, an evil cleric adds the following cruelties to the list of those that can be selected.

Cursed: The target is cursed, as if the evil cleric had cast bestow curse, using his evil cleric level as his caster level.
Exhausted: The target is exhausted. The evil cleric must have the fatigue cruelty before selecting this cruelty.
Frightened: The target is frightened for 1 round per two levels of the evil cleric. The evil cleric must have the shaken cruelty before selecting this cruelty.
Nauseated: The target is nauseated for 1 round per three levels of the evil cleric. The evil cleric must have the sickened cruelty before selecting this cruelty.
Poisoned: The target is poisoned, as if the evil cleric had cast poison, using the evil clericís level as the caster level.


At 12th level, an evil cleric adds the following cruelties to the list of those that can be selected.

Blinded: The target is blinded for 1 round per level of the evil cleric.
Deafened: The target is deafened for 1 round per level of the evil cleric.
Paralyzed: The target is paralyzed for 1 round.
Stunned: The target is stunned for 1 round per four levels of the evil cleric.


These abilities are not cumulative. For example, a 12th-level evil clericís inflict light wounds ability deals 1d8+12 points of damage and might also cause the target to become fatigued, dazed, poisoned, or diseased. Once a cruelty is chosen, it canít be changed.

Protective Barrier (Su):
At 8th level, clerics can manifest a protective barrier around one target as an immediate action, targeting one creature within 15 ft. The barrier provides DR X / Evil or Good, where X is equal to the clericís caster level (maximum 15). The alignment is the opposite of their chosen energy type for their spells, meaning healing clerics would grant DR X / Evil and damaging clerics would grant DR X / Good. This can be used three plus charisma modifier times per encounter, requiring five minutes rest afterwards to regain the uses.

Cure Wounds (Moderate) (Su):
At 8th level, good clerics can heal wounds with a mere touch. This ability requires a successful touch attack; if successful, the ability deals 3d8 + Caster level positive energy to the target. Positive energy heals hit points of most living creatures and inflicts damage to most undead creatures.

Inflict Wounds (Moderate) (Su):
At 8th level, evil clerics can inflict wounds with a mere touch. This ability requires a successful touch attack; if successful, the ability deals 3d8 + Caster level negative energy to the target. Negative energy damages most living creatures and heals wounds of most undead creatures.

Healing Ray:
At 10th level, a good cleric can alter any melee touch spell, supernatural, or spell-like ability that deals positive energy to single target to be a ray within close range. At 15th level, the range extends to medium range, and increases again to long range at 20th level.

Damaging Ray:
At 10th level, an evil cleric can alter any melee touch spell, supernatural, or spell-like ability that deals negative energy to single target to be a ray within close range. At 15th level, the range extends to medium range, and increases again to long range at 20th level.

Reflective Barrier (Su):
At 13th level, when clerics manifest a protective barrier around one target as an immediate action, the damage prevented by the barrier is reflected back to the source of the damage.

Cure Wounds (Serious) (Su):
At 14th level, good clerics can heal wounds with a mere touch. This ability requires a successful touch attack; if successful, the ability deals 5d8 + Caster level positive energy to the target. Positive energy heals hit points of most living creatures and inflicts damage to most undead creatures.

Inflict Wounds (Serious) (Su):
At 14th level, evil clerics can inflict wounds with a mere touch. This ability requires a successful touch attack; if successful, the ability deals 5d8 + Caster level negative energy to the target. Negative energy damages most living creatures and heals wounds of most undead creatures.




Druid
Druids lose access to 7th - 9th level spells, because of the spell progression to be based on base attack progression. A fair trade for such a strong and versatile class.



Sorcerer
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: 1d6

Class Skills
The Sorcerer's class skills are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (---), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

{table=head]{colsp=7}Table: The Sorcerer
Level| Attack Bonus | Fort | Ref | Will |
Special|
Charge Reserve

1 | +0 |{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+2 |Familiar, Item Affinity (Scroll), Magical Charge Reserve|1
2 | +1 |{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+3 |Item Affinity (Potion) |3
3 | +1 |{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+3 | |6
4 | +2 |{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+4 |Wandstrike |9
5 | +2 |{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+4 |Item Affinity (Wand), Bonus Feat |12

6 | +3 |{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+5 |Metamagic Spell Trigger |15
7 | +3 |{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+5 | |20
8 | +4 |{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+6 |Double Wand Wielder |23
9 | +4 |{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+6 |Item Affinity (Rod) |26
10 | +5 |{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+7 |Bonus Feat |29

11 | +5 |{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+7 |Metamagic Spell Completion | 35
12 | +6/+1 |{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+8 |Item Affinity (Staff) |40
13 | +6/+1 |{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+8 | |45
14 | +7/+2 |{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+9 |Item Affinity (Ring) |50
15 | +7/+2 |{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+9 |Bonus Feat |55

16 | +8/+3 |{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+10 |Extra Rings |60
17 | +8/+3 |{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+10 | |70
18 | +9/+4 |{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+11 |Item Affinity (Artifacts) |80
19 | +9/+4 |{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+11 | |90
20 | +10/+5 |{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+12 |Bonus Feat |100
[/table]

Class Features
The following are the class features of the Sorcerer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Sorcerers are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, heavy mace, light crossbow, light mace, and quarterstaff. Sorcerers are not proficient with armor or shields. Wearing armor or shields causes arcane spells to suffer an arcane miss chance.

Item Affinity:
Magical items are far more potent in a sorcerer's hands. Whenever the sorcerer uses a magical item that he has affinity for, the DC of saving throws against the itemís effect is increased by 2 and the itemís effective caster level is increased by 2. The sorcerer can use magical items with greater potency, using either the item's caster level or his sorcerer's caster level (whichever is higher), changing all the spellís level-dependent effects.

At 1st level, the sorcerer gains affinity with scrolls. At 2nd level, the sorcerer gains affinity with potions, At 5th level, the sorcerer gains affinity with wands, At 9th level, the sorcerer gains affinity with rods, At 12th level, the sorcerer gains affinity with staves, 14th level, the sorcerer gains affinity with rings, and 18th level, the sorcerer gains affinity with artifacts.

Wandstrike:
A sorcerer of 4th level can as a standard action, make a melee touch attack with a wand, expending one charge to deal 1d6 points of damage to the creature struck. The sorcerer applys no extra damage to this attack regardless of its source (including sneak attack, favored enemy, and smite bonuses), but the wand activates as part of the attack.

If the spell cast from the wand is a ray or a targeted spell, the creature struck is the spellís target (with ray spells hitting automatically). If the spell affects an area or creates a spread, you can designate the spellís point of origin at any grid intersection point of the creatureís space (but doing so might put you in the affected area). Spells with an effect that does not cover an area (such as the various summon monster spells) cannot be used with a wandstrike attack.

Bonus Feat:
A Sorcerer gains a bonus feat at 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th). For each of these bonus feats, the sorcerer must choose a metamagic feat or a feat from the following list: Attune Magic Weapon, Brew Potion, Craft Construct (see the Monster Manual, page 303), Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Exceptional Artisan, Extraordinary Artisan, Forge Ring, Legendary Artisan, Scribe Scroll, or Wand Mastery. The sorcerer must meet all requirements for the bonus feats.

Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su):
At 6th level, a sorcerer gains the ability to apply a metamagic feat he knows to a spell trigger item (generally a wand). He must have the appropriate item creation feat for the spell trigger item he is using. Using this ability expends additional charges from the item equal to the number of effective spell levels the metamagic feat would add to a spell.

For example, a sorcerer can quicken a spell cast from a wand by spending 5 charges (4 additional charges), empower the spell by spending 3 charges, or trigger it silently by spending 2 charges. The Still Spell feat confers no benefit when applied to a spell trigger item. A sorcerer cannot use this ability when using a spell trigger item that does not have charges, such as prayer beads.

Double Wand Wielder:
A sorcerer of 8th level can, as a full-round action, wield a wand in each hand (if he has both hands free). One wand is designated as the primary wand and the other is the secondary wand. Each use of the secondary wand expends 2 charges from it instead of 1. The sorcerer is treated as having two weapon fighting with wands, meaning both spells only suffer a -2 penalty to their attack rolls (if any), rather than -5.

Metamagic Spell Completion (Su):
At 11th level, a sorcerer gains the ability to apply a metamagic feat he knows to a spell completion item (generally a scroll). He must have the appropriate item creation feat for the spell completion item he is using. The DC for the Spellcraft check is equal to 20 + (3 ◊ the modified level of the spell).

For example, applying the Empower Spell feat to a scroll of cone of cold, creating a 7th-level effect, has a DC of 20 + (3 ◊ 7), or 41. A sorcerer can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Int modifier.

Extra Rings:
At 16th level, Sorcerers gain the ability to make use of more rings than normal. The sorcerer can wear up to four magic rings, two on each hand, and all function normally.



Wizard
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: 1d4

Class Skills
[I]The Wizard's class skills are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (---).

Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

{table=head]{colsp=7}Table: The Wizard
Level| Attack Bonus | Fort | Ref | Will |
Special|
Craft Reserve

1 | +0 |{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+2 |Wizard Knowledge, The Circle, Scribe Scroll |20
2 | +1 |{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+0|{colsp=1}
+3 |Brew Potion, Lore Mastery |40
3 | +1 |{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+3 |Craft Wondrous Item |60
4 | +2 |{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+4 |Bonus Feat |80
5 | +2 |{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+1|{colsp=1}
+4 |Craft Magical Arms and Armor |100

6 | +3 |{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+5 |Still Mind |150
7 | +3 |{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+5 |Craft Wand |200
8 | +4 |{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+2|{colsp=1}
+6 |Bonus Feat |250
9 | +4 |{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+6 |Craft Rod |300
10 | +5 |{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+7 |Lore Mastery |400

11 | +5 |{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+3|{colsp=1}
+7 | |500
12 | +6/+1 |{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+8 |Craft Staff, Bonus Feat |700
13 | +6/+1 |{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+8 |Skill Mastery |900
14 | +7/+2 |{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+4|{colsp=1}
+9 |Forge Ring |1,200
15 | +7/+2 |{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+9 | Lore Mastery |1,500

16 | +8/+3 |{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+10 |Bonus Feat |2,000
17 | +8/+3 |{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+5|{colsp=1}
+10 | |2,500
18 | +9/+4 |{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+11 |Forge Artifact |3,000
19 | +9/+4 |{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+11 | |4,000
20 | +10/+5 |{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+6|{colsp=1}
+12 |Bonus Feat, Lore Mastery |5,000
[/table]

Class Features
The following are the class features of the Wizard.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, heavy mace, light crossbow, light mace, and quarterstaff. Wizards are not proficient with armor or shields. Wearing armor or shields causes arcane spells to suffer an arcane miss chance.

Spellbooks:
Spellbooks are tomes of dusty magic, filled with a great number of spells. To most wizards starting off, the spellbook is their only focus for spells. After they obtain high enough level to get a wand, rod or staff; the wizard can then use that magical item as a Focus for casting.

When a scroll is written into a spellbook, the pages holding the spell become a permanent at will scroll, rather than a single use item. Each spell requires a number of pages equal to its spell level, with o-level spells filling a page. A new spellbook has 100 blank pages, although some spellbooks have spells written into them.

At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizardsí spellbooks to her own, assuming it is of the same magical type; such as arcane, divine or nature.

Craft Reserve:
A wizard receives a pool of points he can spend instead of experience points when crafting a magic item. Each time the wizard gains a new level, he receives a new craft reserve; leftover points from the previous level do not carry over. If the points are not spent, they are lost. A wizard can also use his craft reserve to supplement the XP cost of the item he is making, taking a portion of the cost from his craft reserve and a portion from his own XP.

Wizard Knowledge:
A wizard can make a special knowledge check with a bonus equal to his wizard level + his Int modifier to detect whether a specific item has a magical aura. The wizard must hold and examine the object for 1 minute. A successful check against DC 15 determines that the object has magical qualities, but does not reveal the specific powers of the item. A wizard cannot take 10 or take 20 on this check. A particular item can be examined in this fashion only one time; if the check fails, the wizard can learn no more about that object.

The Circle:
When magical items are created within a circle of salt or crushed gemstones, everyone within the circle can lend a portion of their energy and power to the item to be enchanted. The Wizard can share the experience costs for creating magical items by one or more creatures that willingly offering their energy to be used. Requirements for creating items are shared, meaning if the wizard has access to only one component, the others can supply that prerequisite for item creation. Once drawn, the circle cannot be broken by someone entering into it or exiting it, or the item's progress is lost and the material components are destroyed. Experience costs of item creation feats can be shared with any number of willing creatures, divided by the number of creatures, with the wizard rounding up to the nearest number, and rounded down to the nearest number for the creatures supplying energy.

Bonus Feat:
A wizard gains every item creation feat as a bonus feat at or near the level at which it becomes available to spellcasters. He gets Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level, Brew Potion at 2nd level, Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level, Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 5th level, Craft Wand at 7th level, Craft Rod at 9th level, Craft Staff at 12th level, and Forge Ring at 14th level.

In addition, a wizard gains a bonus feat at 4th level and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th). For each of these bonus feats, the wizard must choose a metamagic feat or a feat from the following list: Attune Magic Weapon, Craft Construct (see the Monster Manual, page 303), Exceptional Artisan, Extra Rings, Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Wand Mastery.

Lore Mastery:
Upon reaching 2nd level, a wizard gains a +2 bonus to all Decipher Script checks and to all checks of any one Knowledge skill of his choice. Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. At 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the wizard can choose an additional Knowledge skill on which to gain the +2 bonus.

Still Mind (Ex):
Starting at 6th level, a wizard gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment, due to his rigorous focus and intense mental discipline.

Skill Mastery:
At 13th level, a wizard can take 10 when making a Spellcraft check for casting and using magical items, even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so. This ability circumvents the normal rule that a character may not take 10 on a Spellcraft check to use magical items.

Forge Artifact:
Starting at 18th level, a wizard can begin working with the DM to create an artifact of an appropriate form, function and power. The DM must agree to the concept before construction can begin. Once created, another artifact cannot be made until the first is destroyed; the Wizard is only allowed one such artifact.

The creator can always sense the presence and direction of this artifact, as long as the wizard is on the same plane. Within 1 mile, he sense the artifact's exact distance. Within 30 ft., the Wizard can sense to exact location.

LordErebus12
2013-03-25, 08:41 PM
The Arcane
Spellcraft is Intelligence Based.
Spells Known Formula: 2 x (1 + 1/2 HD + Intelligence Modifier)
Armor and Shields cause Arcane spells to suffer arcane spell failure.

The Divine
Spellcraft is Charisma based
Spells known formula: 2 x (1 + 1/2 HD + Charisma Modifier)
Armor and Shields causes no spell failure and they can wear metal armor and metal shields.

The Natural
Spellcraft is Wisdom based
Spells known formula: 2 x (1 + 1/2 HD + Wisdom Modifier)
Metal Armor and Metal Shields cause natural spells to automatically fail.

LordErebus12
2013-03-25, 08:42 PM
Feats, if any

Waker
2013-03-25, 09:20 PM
Seems like an interesting approach. How would you run item creation? Would they automatically produce any items they normally could or would they behave like artificers with restricted lists?
What about mechanics like counterspelling, metamagic and specialization?

LordErebus12
2013-03-25, 09:22 PM
Seems like an interesting approach. How would you run item creation? Would they automatically produce any items they normally could or would they behave like artificers with restricted lists?
What about mechanics like counterspelling, metamagic and specialization?

it would function much as it would now, id imagine.

item creation costs would streamline, i would imagine, since we wouldnt have to deal with different costs based on class.

Empedocles
2013-03-25, 09:31 PM
Run it similarly to Star Wars SAGA, where Use the Force is a skill anybody can take? I like that idea, in its broadest sense - ties into another thread I just made where I thought of refluffing SAGA to fit fantasy campaigns and not just Star Wars...

bobthe6th
2013-03-25, 09:34 PM
I mean, the problem becomes for clerics that the DM has to hand out some free loot... I suggest separating the cleric and the healer. Make Divine properly separated as a subsystem, possibly use it as a way to fold in pact magic or invocations into the system. Healers get a Larger touch of vitality pool, with the added bonus of Though you could honestly just give pepped up versions of the Healers Spell like abilities(many more times per day and all that...). Add in some buff invocations, or something like a free eldrich blast thing...

Now, arcane magic is a proper sub system. I like the idea you outlined, but I posit a problem. Look at the artificer. He does something along the lines you suggest, and is a class that relies on system mastery.

How about a crafting pool for arcane casters, more for the wizard then the sorceror(who gets to treat themselves like a rune staff that they power with item charges?). They use this pool at the start of each day to make some modifications to their items. They can add charges, recreate broken items, or empower existing ones. These points are caught up in the items until used or reclaimed by the caster. After use/reclamation they are unusable until after a rest. So some slight ability to keep using the things they find, but still limited to items.

LordErebus12
2013-03-25, 09:40 PM
I mean, the problem becomes for clerics that the DM has to hand out some free loot... I suggest separating the cleric and the healer. Make Divine properly separated as a subsystem, possibly use it as a way to fold in pact magic or invocations into the system. Healers get a Larger touch of vitality pool, with the added bonus of Though you could honestly just give pepped up versions of the Healers Spell like abilities(many more times per day and all that...). Add in some buff invocations, or something like a free eldrich blast thing...

hard to understand, please clarify



How about a crafting pool for arcane casters, more for the wizard then the sorcerer (who gets to treat themselves like a rune staff that they power with item charges?). They use this pool at the start of each day to make some modifications to their items. They can add charges, recreate broken items, or empower existing ones. These points are caught up in the items until used or reclaimed by the caster. After use/reclamation they are unusable until after a rest. So some slight ability to keep using the things they find, but still limited to items.

good idea

Empedocles
2013-03-25, 09:43 PM
no idea, not my cup of tea. i heavily redid star wars d20 to fit my ideals. not familiar with all that jazz.

If, uh, you go with the ideas you mention in your OP, then it is very much your cup of tea :smallconfused: I wasn't saying you should refluff it...just suggesting that you could look to SAGA for how precisely having magic as an option available to everybody could affect gameplay.

bobthe6th
2013-03-25, 09:49 PM
hard to understand, please clarify

Suggesting that rather then keep arcane and devine magic in the same subsystem, you seperate them. Make the classic "devine" Healbot a suped up healer relying on a modified touch of vitality(Dragon Shaman) and some SLAs for specific things they need to be able to cure. Make an actual cleric class that is either a binder, or a modified invocation class.

This frees up the normal spells to be just arcane... which is much easier on the subsystem.

LordErebus12
2013-03-25, 09:55 PM
Suggesting that rather then keep arcane and devine magic in the same subsystem, you seperate them. Make the classic "devine" Healbot a suped up healer relying on a modified touch of vitality(Dragon Shaman) and some SLAs for specific things they need to be able to cure. Make an actual cleric class that is either a binder, or a modified invocation class.

This frees up the normal spells to be just arcane... which is much easier on the subsystem.

I hate to "make it a feat"

perhaps you have to choose which type of magic you will work with upon creation. just like alignments, classes such as mystic theurge would grant access to both.

i think prestiege classes (such as mystic theurge) that add only an additional spell caster level would become worthless, as it would be based on base attack bonus.

you could simply have a feat for the ability to use both arcane and divine, requiring you to choose a deity/positive force from which to worship/draw power from.

bobthe6th
2013-03-25, 10:32 PM
I mean, there are much better systems for doing divine characters. It never really sat right with me that they were the same as people using their knowledge or inborn talent to change the world. Invocations provide a more "Gift of God" feel, and binding allows for becoming one with a domain.

Though honestly, you could just make touch of vitality a feat. Then you would be free of needing a "Healer" class, and could make the cleric an actual servant of a god without any forced class role. Like a working warlock.

LordErebus12
2013-03-25, 10:42 PM
I mean, there are much better systems for doing divine characters. It never really sat right with me that they were the same as people using their knowledge or inborn talent to change the world. Invocations provide a more "Gift of God" feel, and binding allows for becoming one with a domain.

Though honestly, you could just make touch of vitality a feat. Then you would be free of needing a "Healer" class, and could make the cleric an actual servant of a god without any forced class role. Like a working warlock.

not sure what binding and invocations have to do with healers.
Edit: i meant divine casters, not healers.

Touch of Vitality (Su):
At 6th level, you can heal the wounds of living creatures (your own or those of others) by touch. Each day you can heal a number of points of damage equal to twice your class level ◊ your Charisma bonus. For example, a 7th-level dragon shaman with a Charisma score of 14 (+2 bonus) can heal 28 points of damage. You can choose to divide your healing among multiple recipients, and you donít have to use it all at once. Using your touch of vitality is a standard action. It has no effect on undead.

Beginning at 11th level, you can choose to spend some of the healing bestowed by your touch of vitality to remove other harmful conditions affecting the target.

For every 5 points of your healing ability you expend, you can cure 1 point of ability damage or remove the dazed, fatigued, or sickened condition from one individual.
For every 10 points of your healing ability you expend, you can remove the exhausted, nauseated, poisoned, or stunned condition from one individual.
For every 20 points of your healing ability you expend, you can remove a negative level or the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition from one individual.

You can remove a condition (or more than one condition) and heal damage with the same touch, so long as you expend the required number of points. For example, if you wanted to heal 12 points of damage and remove the blinded and exhausted conditions from a target, you would have to expend 42 points (12 hit points restored plus 20 points for blinded plus 10 points for exhausted).

it could work well that way.

RedWarlock
2013-03-25, 11:08 PM
The main issue with Use The Force as a skill, in my understanding, is that you wind up with over-specialization because that one skill covers EVERYTHING. Boosting that single skill all to hell through whatever means, ability boosts, cicumstance and item buffs, etc, winds up creating hyper-specialized characters.

Now, if you were to, let's say, split it up, either along power-source lines (arcana vs religion vs nature) or along spell-type lines (not as skills, but older d20 star wars used the division of powers between alter/sense/control, or you could go with skills for spell schools like evocation/conjuration/necromancy/etc) it spreads the focus around, creates specialists in particular areas so that one character-type doesn't dominate everything magical.

Way back when in my 3.5+ mods, (which I'm probably going to roll 3/4 of it into the WarCraft stuff) I was dividing up the different skills between power sources and spell schools, so that your caster level for any given spell-effect was determined by one of two or three possible skills for your class.


Under this system, I had four major casting types, that operated in a wheel of interdependency, Arcane (mages), Divine (priests/paladins), Primal (shamans/rangers), and Eldritch (bards/warlocks/dragonbloods).

Each used a different casting system. Mages used a system akin to PF's Words of Power, Divine used something like the Shadowcaster's trio-sets of mysteries (each was basically a mini-domain), Primal used spell points with augmentation like Psionics, and Eldritch used a combo of invocations and auras.


Mystery (primal magic)
Mending (healing, shared between primal and divine)
Theurgy (divine magic)
Necromancy (shared between divine and arcane)
Arcana (arcane magic)
Sorcery (shared between arcane and eldritch (invoking))
Inborn (eldritch magic)
Perform (shared between primal and eldritch)



I'm going to change things up for my WarCraft stuff, but I'm probably going to take my lead from my prior work.

LordErebus12
2013-03-25, 11:14 PM
The main issue with Use The Force as a skill, in my understanding, is that you wind up with over-specialization because that one skill covers EVERYTHING. Boosting that single skill all to hell through whatever means, ability boosts, cicumstance and item buffs, etc, winds up creating hyper-specialized characters.

yeah i dont like that either, nor was it my plan.


Now, if you were to, let's say, split it up, either along power-source lines (arcana vs religion vs nature) or along spell-type lines (not as skills, but older d20 star wars used the division of powers between alter/sense/control, or you could go with skills for spell schools like evocation/conjuration/necromancy/etc) it spreads the focus around, creates specialists in particular areas so that one character-type doesn't dominate everything magical.

Way back when in my 3.5+ mods, (which I'm probably going to roll 3/4 of it into the WarCraft stuff) I was dividing up the different skills between power sources and spell schools, so that your caster level for any given spell-effect was determined by one of two or three possible skills for your class.


this was more my plan, though not entirely.

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 01:36 AM
Base attack bonus tables are added.

Xuldarinar
2013-03-26, 02:27 AM
This actually looks pretty good. I think this would really shine in a magic heavy campaign.

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 03:37 AM
This actually looks pretty good. I think this would really shine in a magic heavy campaign.

dont speak too quickly, lol. casting now requires a check.

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 03:49 AM
okay, i think i got most of the changes down. gonna start working on classes after some sleep.

Xuldarinar
2013-03-26, 04:02 AM
dont speak too quickly, lol. casting now requires a check.

Lets look at that.

15 + (spell level x 3).

So, if I'm not mistaken:
Spell Level|Spellcraft DC
1st|16
2nd|21
3rd|24
4th|27
5th|30
6th|33
7th|36
8th|39
9th|42

So far it seems reasonable. Magic shouldn't come too easily, least not early on. In a magic heavy campaign, more would have access to spells and there would likely be more methods to lowering the DCs. Items and such that give bonuses to spellcraft and to the caster's stat would be more common place, i'd assume at least.

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 04:06 AM
Lets look at that.

15 + (spell level x 3).

So, if I'm not mistaken:
Spell Level|Spellcraft DC
1st|16
2nd|21
3rd|24
4th|27
5th|30
6th|33
7th|36
8th|39
9th|42

So far it seems reasonable. Magic shouldn't come too easily, least not early on. In a magic heavy campaign, more would have access to spells and there would likely be more methods to lowering the DCs. Items and such that give bonuses to spellcraft and to the caster's stat would be more common place, i'd assume at least.

especially since the minimum mental score for 9th is 19 (+4), meaning a basic 20th level Wizard with max ranks in spellcraft would have a +27 to the roll, before buffs and min-maxing.

Waker
2013-03-26, 04:12 AM
Choice of Magic Types:
All characters choose either arcane, divine, or nature upon creation.
That character may only manifest that specific magic type, unless another is gained from another source.
So the only difference between the different magic types is the attribute that determines the benefits? And expanding on that, does this mean we could make Divine Wizards or Arcane Druids?

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 04:20 AM
So the only difference between the different magic types is the attribute that determines the benefits? And expanding on that, does this mean we could make Divine Wizards or Arcane Druids?

YES :smallbiggrin:

although druids are a bit weaker casters.

Xuldarinar
2013-03-26, 04:26 AM
Arcane Druid.. Hmm

Suddenly I'm thinking about Radagast the Brown.

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 04:32 AM
Arcane Druid.. Hmm

Suddenly I'm thinking about Radagast the Brown.

nature wizard... hedgehog familiar...

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 04:40 PM
posted Wizard and Sorcerer.

Gonna start on cleric.

Ziegander
2013-03-26, 05:41 PM
especially since the minimum mental score for 9th is 19 (+4), meaning a basic 20th level Wizard with max ranks in spellcraft would have a +27 to the roll, before buffs and min-maxing.

A 20th level Wizard, assuming Intelligence determines bonus spell slots and save DCs, is going to have Int 30 or higher. With just skill ranks and his ability modifier, that means his bonus to the skill is 33. If he can Take 10 with this skill, then you've added no meaningful restriction. On the other hand, if he can't, then he succeeds on a 9 or higher, giving him a 60% chance to cast his highest level of spells, a 75% chance to cast 8th level, a 90% chance to cast 7th level, and he auto-casts everything else.

Now then, that's before any other bonuses. Magical Aptitude now means +10% chance to cast, as does Aid Another from just about anyone (all you need to hit is DC 10). So now we're up to 80% chance to cast 9th level spells. Skill Focus gives +15% chance to cast bringing it to 95%. All he needs is +1 more to get 100% and I would hardly call this optimizing.

Of course, if you allow magic items to grant bonuses to Spellcraft like they can for other skills, then you're crazy. Because you can get items with bonuses varying from +2 (+10%) all the way to +30 (+150%...).

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 05:49 PM
A 20th level Wizard, assuming Intelligence determines bonus spell slots and save DCs, is going to have Int 30 or higher. With just skill ranks and his ability modifier, that means his bonus to the skill is 33. If he can Take 10 with this skill, then you've added no meaningful restriction. On the other hand, if he can't, then he succeeds on a 9 or higher, giving him a 60% chance to cast his highest level of spells, a 75% chance to cast 8th level, a 90% chance to cast 7th level, and he auto-casts everything else.

Now then, that's before any other bonuses. Magical Aptitude now means +10% chance to cast, as does Aid Another from just about anyone (all you need to hit is DC 10). So now we're up to 80% chance to cast 9th level spells. Skill Focus gives +15% chance to cast bringing it to 95%. All he needs is +1 more to get 100% and I would hardly call this optimizing.

Of course, if you allow magic items to grant bonuses to Spellcraft like they can for other skills, then you're crazy. Because you can get items with bonuses varying from +2 (+10%) all the way to +30 (+150%...).

I see no problem with this. I will make the note that you cannot take 10 on spellcraft checks to cast spells or to use magical items, unless otherwise allowed through class features, etc.

I was going bare minimum required ability scores, without over specializing like you did.

RedWarlock
2013-03-26, 05:53 PM
A 20th level Wizard, assuming Intelligence determines bonus spell slots and save DCs, is going to have Int 30 or higher. With just skill ranks and his ability modifier, that means his bonus to the skill is 33. If he can Take 10 with this skill, then you've added no meaningful restriction. On the other hand, if he can't, then he succeeds on a 9 or higher, giving him a 60% chance to cast his highest level of spells, a 75% chance to cast 8th level, a 90% chance to cast 7th level, and he auto-casts everything else.

Now then, that's before any other bonuses. Magical Aptitude now means +10% chance to cast, as does Aid Another from just about anyone (all you need to hit is DC 10). So now we're up to 80% chance to cast 9th level spells. Skill Focus gives +15% chance to cast bringing it to 95%. All he needs is +1 more to get 100% and I would hardly call this optimizing.

Of course, if you allow magic items to grant bonuses to Spellcraft like they can for other skills, then you're crazy. Because you can get items with bonuses varying from +2 (+10%) all the way to +30 (+150%...).

No, I'd say you're assuming more optimization than you give credit for. That +27 was a strict minimum, based on functional limits (ability score of 10+spell level to learn/cast), so we set the base bar there, distant but doable on a 17-20 roll. Anything higher IS optimized to at least a small degree. If the player wants to optimize it, they can, and can be rewarded, but I don't think taking 10 is included in the assumptions, nor is aid another or items. Those would be optimization strategies, not base play assumptions. (taking them into account for an upper ceiling is advisable, but again, don't assume they're included in the optimization floor.)

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 05:59 PM
No, I'd say you're assuming more optimization than you give credit for. That +27 was a strict minimum, based on functional limits (ability score of 10+spell level to learn/cast), so we set the base bar there, distant but doable on a 17-20 roll. Anything higher IS optimized to at least a small degree. If the player wants to optimize it, they can, and can be rewarded, but I don't think taking 10 is included in the assumptions, nor is aid another or items. Those would be optimization strategies, not base play assumptions. (taking them into account for an upper ceiling is advisable, but again, don't assume they're included in the optimization floor.)

Redwarlock is right, we built it to allow non-optimized characters at least a chance, lol.

LordErebus12
2013-03-26, 11:02 PM
cleric is up, except for its cure mass/inflict mass abilities.

Silvernale
2013-03-26, 11:53 PM
I recommend reading The Black Company d20. It uses skill based magic, with spells that are lesser versions of epic seeds. You learn a spell, like fire manipulation, and at base DC you can do 1d4 fire damage by touch. Then you can "augment" the effect by increasing the DC. The skills work like this:
Magic Use - to cast spells
Ghost Sound - to make minor phantom sounds
Detect Magic - this is no longer a spell
Resistance - used for resisting magic

Oh yeah, casting spells takes HP based on the power of the spell, and this drain is reduced by your magic power.

LordErebus12
2013-03-27, 12:17 AM
I recommend reading The Black Company d20. It uses skill based magic, with spells that are lesser versions of epic seeds. You learn a spell, like fire manipulation, and at base DC you can do 1d4 fire damage by touch. Then you can "augment" the effect by increasing the DC. The skills work like this:
Magic Use - to cast spells
Ghost Sound - to make minor phantom sounds
Detect Magic - this is no longer a spell
Resistance - used for resisting magic

Oh yeah, casting spells takes HP based on the power of the spell, and this drain is reduced by your magic power.

is there an srd?

Silvernale
2013-03-27, 10:51 AM
is there an srd?

I don't know what SRD is

Khatoblepas
2013-03-27, 11:17 AM
This looks interesting, but I have a few questions.

-) How does 0/0 Base attack bonus progression work in this system for spellcasting (Survivor, Warhulk)? A Commoner 1/Survivor 5 could easily have +0 BAB. Does this give them all the spells? Related: Commoners are now full casters.

-) Due to the way you calculate caster level based on base attack bonus, all prestige classes now grant caster levels, with stuff like Eldritch Knight making it worse for a gish to exist, but buffing the likes of Arcane Duelist and Eunuch Warlock to high heavens. Caster classes that previously lost caster levels now have full caster levels, and gish classes that didn't now destroy your casting.

-) How does this work with racial hit die? If it takes it into account, how do you account for, say, the Famine Spirit walking around with 9th level spells?

-) How does it interact with racial spellcasting?

LordErebus12
2013-03-27, 01:34 PM
I don't know what SRD is

System Reference Document, such as d20srd.org or dndsrd.net for 3.5


This looks interesting, but I have a few questions.

-) How does 0/0 Base attack bonus progression work in this system for spellcasting (Survivor, Warhulk)? A Commoner 1/Survivor 5 could easily have +0 BAB. Does this give them all the spells? Related: Commoners are now full casters.

-) Due to the way you calculate caster level based on base attack bonus, all prestige classes now grant caster levels, with stuff like Eldritch Knight making it worse for a gish to exist, but buffing the likes of Arcane Duelist and Eunuch Warlock to high heavens. Caster classes that previously lost caster levels now have full caster levels, and gish classes that didn't now destroy your casting.

-) How does this work with racial hit die? If it takes it into account, how do you account for, say, the Famine Spirit walking around with 9th level spells?

-) How does it interact with racial spellcasting?


Sadly, warhulk would be unable to improve its ability to cast spells, as it would not progress via Base Attack Bonus. Ive never agreed with the Warhulk, feeling it completely broken. Typically, I wouldnt allow it run in a normal game, let alone with this rule variant.

perhaps Prestiege classes do not advance spell progression via base attack...? with levels that grant "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" stacking with the total? Honestly, Prestige classes didn't even come into the equation until you mentioned them, so i dont have any ideas on this.

im not familiar with the famine spirit, so id be a poor judge of how it affects it. i would say that, since spellcraft is required to cast, and cannot be used untrained, that unless a creature has taken ranks, it cannot cast.

not sure...

LordErebus12
2013-03-27, 02:58 PM
This looks interesting, but I have a few questions.

-) Due to the way you calculate caster level based on base attack bonus, all prestige classes now grant caster levels, with stuff like Eldritch Knight making it worse for a gish to exist, but buffing the likes of Arcane Duelist and Eunuch Warlock to high heavens. Caster classes that previously lost caster levels now have full caster levels, and gish classes that didn't now destroy your casting.


I added a section to the first post about PrCs, Redwarlock came up with it.

It might take a little work on the DM/Player part to adjust the PrC slightly to make sense, using the governing rule.

LordErebus12
2013-03-27, 04:21 PM
-) How does it interact with racial spellcasting?

It doesn't. They do not function any differently than normal.

Silvernale
2013-03-27, 09:00 PM
I've only found a 2 page pdf summarizing their magic rules aside from the actual game book. I don't know if it is allowed to post on here.

LordErebus12
2013-03-27, 09:23 PM
I've only found a 2 page pdf summarizing their magic rules aside from the actual game book. I don't know if it is allowed to post on here.

you could send it via a personal message if you want.