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SilverLeaf167
2013-03-26, 02:41 AM
While building a setting, I came to think of how silly I consider the typical division between Devils and Demons, especially as the line between Lawful and Chaotic celestials isn't nearly as well-defined. Now, I know the usual story about the Blood War and stuff, and it makes sense, but I decided to try a different approach. I know it's a cliched one, but... in a different way than the standard fluff. :smallwink:

So, many millennia ago, there was indeed something similar to the Blood War. It was a very even fight, since both Devils and Demons kept being spawned from the pits of their respective planes at a steady rate. However, the Demons somehow figured out how to tap into Hell's spawning pits and divert their power to the Abyss. This warped the Demon's forms and cost them what was left of their sanity, but also made them spawn endlessly and gave the mightiest demons immense power, turning them into Elder Evils (name ideas accepted, this is pretty much a placeholder). The Devils realized that the Blood War was going to end, and it wasn't going to be pretty, so they bailed out. They managed to convince even the Angels that this was a threat to the whole multiverse, and together they also recruited some of the mightiest mages on the Material Plane. The three factions combined managed to seal the gates of the Abyss, locking the Demons inside. However, doing so also required the destruction of Hell's spawning pits (or at least so the Devils were convinced by the two other factions). Now, the Demons are stuck in the Abyss, but their numbers keep growing steadily (they only have their own pits right now), while the Devils are forced to rely on bought and corrupted souls to grow, or rather replenish their numbers. The Angels are pretty pleased with themselves to have reduced the fiendish threat so greatly. The seal wasn't perfect, however, and everyone concerned realized it, but so far it has mostly just been slightly bleeding the Demons' influence into the Underdark, creating Aberrations and some of the "dark" races, which tend to stay in the Underdark and have their own slow methods of recreation rather than

So, anyway, what I'm asking here is
a. what do you think of the story? Any other ideas regarding it?
b. should I modify the Demons mechanically to show their warping effect? I'm looking for something a little Cthulhu-esque, as implied by the name Elder Evil.
c. are most Aberrations pretty much ready to be Demon-Cthulhu-spawn without any modifications? I think they are. Thinking of stuff like Aboleths, Illithids, Carrion Crawlers etc. I also think I might apply the Half-Farspawn template to some creatures to represent the influence.

As a side note, I'm definitely changing Succubi into Devils, it makes more sense that way in the first place.


EDIT: Demons can't be conjured, but Devils will serve pretty much anyone if it furthers their own goals and/or in exchange for souls (if they're summoned instead of called, they don't really require anything obviously). You don't need to be LE to summon Devils, CE or even LG does just fine. Devils might be worried that Good people just want to slay them, though.

hamishspence
2013-03-26, 05:21 AM
However, the Demons somehow figured out how to tap into Hell's spawning pits and divert their power to the Abyss. This warped the Demon's forms and cost them what was left of their sanity, but also made them spawn endlessly and gave the mightiest demons immense power, turning them into Elder Evils (name ideas accepted, this is pretty much a placeholder).

Seems a bit like Fiendish Codex 1's Obyriths, only in reverse. These are warped, Cthulhu-esque demons that created the modern ones.

Fire Lord Pi
2013-03-26, 05:33 AM
I like this idea a lot. I may just use it next time.

Xeratos
2013-03-26, 08:13 AM
It's a cool concept. I do have a few questions.

1. Does this mean that it's more-or-less impossible to meet a demon on the material plane, as they are sealed away in the Abyss?
2. How long ago did this happen, and do present day mortals know of the existence of demons?
3. It is implied that the angels and mortals deceived the devils into destroying their own spawning pits. Was it really necessary, and why can't the devils construct new ones?

Now, on to the next part. If your demons are going to be showing up in your campaigns, then absolutely give them some modifications. There's no point in creating an alternate version of history just to end up with exactly the same monsters. Alter their physical appearances, give them new abilities, perhaps write your own demon far above the balor that acts as some sort of super beast. Perhaps they're extremely rare (like, only 2-4 were created before their process was shut down). You could base an entire campaign around creatures like that.

As for your third question: yeah, with all the tentacles and what not races like aboleth, illithid, etc. display, it kind of seems like that's what inspired them to begin with. If you wanted some sort of common theme between the races to show the Cthulu-Demon influence, you might modify their abilities slightly to be more uniform, but physically at least, they're good to go.

Eldan
2013-03-26, 08:21 AM
You seem to be making the usual mistake of confusing angels and archons.

Also, what do the other celestial powers think of this? I can't see the Archons taking this one lying down. And Primus? I'm pretty certain he'd get involved. What about the General of Gehenna, the Baern and the Oinoloth? This sounds like it would destroy a lot of their more long-term plans.

I would be a bit disappointed that you blame Aboleths and Illithids on the demons. Their backstories are some of the most interesting fluff in D&D.


Also, Succubi as devils: raaaaaaage. They make no sense as devils.

SilverLeaf167
2013-03-26, 08:40 AM
You seem to be making the usual mistake of confusing angels and archons.

Also, what do the other celestial powers think of this? I can't see the Archons taking this one lying down. And Primus? I'm pretty certain he'd get involved. What about the General of Gehenna, the Baern and the Oinoloth? This sounds like it would destroy a lot of their more long-term plans.

I would be a bit disappointed that you blame Aboleths and Illithids on the demons. Their backstories are some of the most interesting fluff in D&D.


Also, Succubi as devils: raaaaaaage. They make no sense as devils.
I'm not confusing anything (I think), I just prefer to sum up the three primary planar groups with those names: Angels, Devils and Demons, not only because they are somewhat more iconic but also because some words just don't translate well into Finnish and I prefer to include as little English in my setting write-ups as humanly possible, especially the ones I intend to share with my players.

Had to look up who Primus even was, I doubt he'll be in this setting, but I do in fact have sort of a pantheistic overdeity though he never really does anything. He just is everything. I'll consider including Yugoloths, if you guys can help me think of a reasonable role to include them in. I've heard of them before but have no idea what they actually do in most settings.

Well, I guess I might not really even know all that much about the aberrations' standard fluff, but something about the things I've read about them have made me feel like they're a little hard to include in anything (can't really explain that feeling, your mileage clearly varies). This is actually a way to get an excuse to easily include them in the main plot, if I decide to make a campaign about a Demon uprising or something, but right now I'm just making a (relatively) complete setting that I can then use for whatever I want.

Can you share your reasoning about the succubi? I think they fit pretty well as Devils, especially in a setting where the Devils' very continued existance is dependant on mortal souls. Seduction, "ultimate pleasure" and stuff like that really seems like something that would mesh pretty well with the usual Faustian pact thing.


EDIT: Forgot to answer these.

1. Does this mean that it's more-or-less impossible to meet a demon on the material plane, as they are sealed away in the Abyss?
2. How long ago did this happen, and do present day mortals know of the existence of demons?
3. It is implied that the angels and mortals deceived the devils into destroying their own spawning pits. Was it really necessary, and why can't the devils construct new ones?
1. Yes, Demons are pretty much never seen. Even a single one somehow getting onto the Material Plane would be a clear mark of an imminent armageddon as Abyss floods over.
2. Most scholars have heard of them as the event is well documented in historical sources. Many of the participant mages were very influential and the sealing itself was quite a show.
3. I haven't decided about the deceiving thing, but in the end they were destroyed anyway. From the multiverse's point of view it's a very good thing that the Devils, now rid of their greatest enemy and distraction, have to focus almost all their attention to survival. Most consider the greatly increased amount of helldamned souls an unfortunate side-effect for the greater good. The pits haven't been rebuilt because they were an inherent trait of the plane that channeled energy from the Sea of Space (space between planes) and formed it into Devils, but after the "channel" got redirected by the Demons (who already had their own as well) it was cut during the sealing process. If the seal ever opens, the Devils might theoretically be able to get their pits back. This is a great subject of Hellish intrigue among the higher-ranking Devils.

Xeratos
2013-03-26, 08:51 AM
I would be a bit disappointed that you blame Aboleths and Illithids on the demons. Their backstories are some of the most interesting fluff in D&D

Maybe, though I personally never saw them as much more than psychic mind-jacking slavers, but either way, if he wanted to use the standard fluff, he wouldn't be writing his own setting with alternate origins and histories.

Eldan
2013-03-26, 08:51 AM
The thing is, however, that Angels are not that major a group in planar politics in the default setting. They are certainly strong, but they are the lackeys of the gods, not a power of their own. And archons and eladrin, who are major powers, can not really be grouped with them.

But, well, you seem to have taken a flying leap off the normal planes. Reading your second comment, it seems you have changed everything and will keep almost nothing intact. Good for you, I like people who get creative, but it seems I can't really comment on it then, if you share nothing in common. Or at least, I can only comment on what you have written, instead of considering the basics and how it interacts with the setting.

As for Succubi: that's your decision, of course. In the default setting, all fiends try to tempt mortals into evil, but different kinds of evil. Devils survive by making mortals lawful. Demons tempt people to chaos. The slaking of one's primal lusts, being in it for the pleasure, the sex, the hedonism, that is the demon's things. Devils are in it for control and oppression through bureaucracy. Ends justfy the means. We did what we had to do. Those are devil phrases. If a devil were to tempt someone in a way the Succubi did, they would feed the demons, their own enemies.

But again, you are writing your own setting. In the beginning I thought you were considering modifying the existing planes, so my answers were relating to that. I'd love to see your cosmology when it is done, then.

Edit: my love for the Illithids, especially, comes from the Illithidiad, the Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon, the tales of Gith, and a bit of Spelljammer lore. Might not be your kind of thing, of course. And the Aboleth, well, the idea of an antediluvian racial memory is just fascinating.

SilverLeaf167
2013-03-26, 09:14 AM
The thing is, however, that Angels are not that major a group in planar politics in the default setting. They are certainly strong, but they are the lackeys of the gods, not a power of their own. And archons and eladrin, who are major powers, can not really be grouped with them.

But, well, you seem to have taken a flying leap off the normal planes. Reading your second comment, it seems you have changed everything and will keep almost nothing intact. Good for you, I like people who get creative, but it seems I can't really comment on it then, if you share nothing in common. Or at least, I can only comment on what you have written, instead of considering the basics and how it interacts with the setting.

As for Succubi: that's your decision, of course. In the default setting, all fiends try to tempt mortals into evil, but different kinds of evil. Devils survive by making mortals lawful. Demons tempt people to chaos. The slaking of one's primal lusts, being in it for the pleasure, the sex, the hedonism, that is the demon's things. Devils are in it for control and oppression through bureaucracy. Ends justfy the means. We did what we had to do. Those are devil phrases. If a devil were to tempt someone in a way the Succubi did, they would feed the demons, their own enemies.

But again, you are writing your own setting. In the beginning I thought you were considering modifying the existing planes, so my answers were relating to that. I'd love to see your cosmology when it is done, then.

Edit: my love for the Illithids, especially, comes from the Illithidiad, the Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon, the tales of Gith, and a bit of Spelljammer lore. Might not be your kind of thing, of course. And the Aboleth, well, the idea of an antediluvian racial memory is just fascinating.

Now I feel bad. :smallamused:

The thing is, I'm not that well-versed in planar role and usually just think there's way too much of it (still sort of do), especially as it usually plays a rather small role in our games. In most of my settings the cosmology has been just a last-moment sort of thing, slapped on after everything else is done so that there's at least something I can pull out if ever necessary. That's another habit of mine I'm intentionally trying to change here. The setting is pretty much in a brainstorm state right now and I'm just writing down ideas I find interesting, so they're pretty malleable.

I hadn't really thought too much about the celestial side, actually, mostly because it usually feels like the more reactive side that just comes down to kick ass and get things back in order when they fall apart, but it felt a little boring. I might put a little more thought into the differences between them for once... the deities in the setting are pretty limited in what they're able/allowed to do on the Material Plane (basically an easy way to explain why they don't always fix everything :smalltongue:) and usually work through mortal proxies. Would something critically interesting be lost if I divided the Celestials into, say, three groups: Archons and Eladrin, both of which want to make the multiverse a big utopia in their own way, and the Angels who are an indirect representation of the Gods (created long ago but left to their own devices) and believe that this gives them the right to do whatever they consider to be right.

Eldan
2013-03-26, 09:44 AM
You'd lose the third celestial power, the guardinals, but even I agree that they are pretty uninteresting.

Now that you brought up gods, I just thought of another thing: what happens to the abyssal divinities? There's all manners of them, after all. Lolth and the Great Mother, Eshebala and Beshaba and even those not specific to D&D like Lu-Yueh of Feng-Tu or Kali the Redeemer. Now, some or all of these might not exist in your setting, but the question still is how they would react and whta would happen to them. Are they imprisoned along with the demon lords? If yes, what happens to their belief? Do they die? Then why aren't there corpses resurrected once they gather belief again? Are they moved to other realms?

SilverLeaf167
2013-03-26, 10:12 AM
You'd lose the third celestial power, the guardinals, but even I agree that they are pretty uninteresting.

Now that you brought up gods, I just thought of another thing: what happens to the abyssal divinities? There's all manners of them, after all. Lolth and the Great Mother, Eshebala and Beshaba and even those not specific to D&D like Lu-Yueh of Feng-Tu or Kali the Redeemer. Now, some or all of these might not exist in your setting, but the question still is how they would react and whta would happen to them. Are they imprisoned along with the demon lords? If yes, what happens to their belief? Do they die? Then why aren't there corpses resurrected once they gather belief again? Are they moved to other realms?
Oh, yeah, I think the same idea that applies to all other gods applies to them too, but I don't think I've mentioned it yet. Since they're supposed to be a little more passive powers in this setting, I felt that the idea of Archons waving good morning to Pelor on their way to work was a little mismatched (no need to tell me how misinformed that whole sentence was :smallwink:). Gods instead exist in their own, typically unreachable planar bubbles outside the normal planes. Very few beings ever enter there, and the gods rarely leave, but they themselves can still affect the rest of the multiverse. Someone like the God of Slaughter was probably pretty pissed about the sealing of Abyss, but it's typically better for gods to patiently expand their influence elsewhere instead of trying to duke it out with each other. The God of War (teehee) also lost a great deal of entertainment when the Blood War ended, but unlike his eponymous game protagonist he couldn't just go on a god-killing spree so he probably caused a war or two between mortals instead.

Speaking of gods, would it matter if I simplified their power levels to Greater Gods, Lesser Gods and Demigods? Those don't matter mechanically if you're not big into god-killing, right? Greater Gods would be grand philosophical and physical concepts, typically dualistic in nature; for example, there's a pair of gods for Life and Death, for Light and Darkness, for Order and Freedom, for War and Slaughter, for Fire and Water (they're supposed to be dualistic, not necessarily opposites of each other). The Lesser Gods have smaller but still remarkable portfolios, like Art, Crafts, Thievery, Fertility and Strength. The Demigods (Divine Rank 0) have really small portfolios and are born when a particular concept becomes popular and common enough: Clothing, Debauchery, Pastries... their possibilities of uselessness are endless, but they don't have much divine powers anyway and are rarely revered. I think Demigods might live in the afterlives... just imagine going to heaven and meeting someone like the friendly neighborhood Demigod of Fluffy Kittens who's more than happy to call some up for you. :smalltongue:


General Disclaimer: I'm not trying to create an universal setting that would optimally please everyone or make a lot of money or anything, just something good for me, my group and whoever turns out to be interested.

Kornaki
2013-03-26, 10:13 AM
If you ever decide you want some demons to hang around, they could just not be on the Abyss when the sealing happens. A small insurgency group planted on the material plane to find a way to open the seal from the other side perhaps.

A lot of demons have ready made mechanics ripe for fluffing. Balors don't have whips, they have tentacles for example. Take the chain devil, fluff him as a demon and instead of chains he has tentacles. Really anything with reach.

Giving all the abberations some sort of fire resistance or fire attack, or something alignment based like unholy word 1/day and DR 5/good would be sufficient to reinforce the connection if you wanted to

Jerthanis
2013-03-26, 10:58 AM
Can you share your reasoning about the succubi? I think they fit pretty well as Devils, especially in a setting where the Devils' very continued existance is dependant on mortal souls. Seduction, "ultimate pleasure" and stuff like that really seems like something that would mesh pretty well with the usual Faustian pact thing.

I'd actually like an answer on this as well. Succubi fit so much better as Devils in my mind that I boggle at the fact that there is so much nerdrage over their swapped position in 4e. The idea of a creature tempting you to your doom by sidling up next to you and pretending she's harmless, engaging in a longterm plan to bring everything you've wrought to ruination by convincing you to engage your darker impulses seems pretty Devilish to me. If they're demons, they seem pretty unique among demons. If they're devils, they seem to fit right in along with the rest to me.

I'm not trying to derail over a contentious issue, but it seems like your conception of the Succubus is pretty similar to mine, and having further elucidation on this matter might help you determine the implications of your changes to the cosmology further.

Eldan
2013-03-26, 11:09 AM
I can see Succubi becoming devils, of course. But their personality would change quite a bit. Sure, pretending to be harmless is a thing for devils. But as written, Succubi are here to tempt people into a kind of "throw it all away and take what you want" behaviour. They are here to tell people that there is no reason for them to ignore their own needs for those of others. That they don't need rules that only hold them back.
A devil would perhaps follow a very similar strategy, but they would use it to get you to fall for different goals. A demon gives you power so you can be the top of the pile, and burn all those who ever scorned you, so your life becomes an empty ruin of misery and hedonism, surrounded by lackeys who praise you because they fear you and those who hollowly fake love to stall your wrath, until someone puts you down for good like the mad beast you are.
A devil gives you power because you need it to realize a goal. You need to clean up this corrupt system. You need to defend your people. You need to claim your birthright. You have to fight and cheat and murder your way to the top, not because you enjoy it. Not because you want the power for its own sake. But because there are things that have to be done, because they are right. Only then will you realize that you became what you fought and though you have achieved nothing, you have to go on, forever, or it will all get worse. Never surrender, never compromise, because this is the face of armageddon and you are now a tiny a cog in a machine greater than worlds.

Both twist you. But in opposite directions.

Personally, I always disliked the idea that chaos can not plan for the long term, can not be subtle and that demons are not really demons if they don't hit things with sticks all day.
That is what annoyed me. There were tons of 4E marketing articles openly insulting planescape people and elaborating on how the lore was horrible. I played long, involved campaigns that involved characters like Graz'zt, Pale Night, Red Shroud and other subtle demons. They can work, and work well.

Jerthanis
2013-03-26, 11:25 AM
Personally, I always disliked the idea that chaos can not plan for the long term, can not be subtle and that demons are not really demons if they don't hit things with sticks all day.

I can see your point, and Succubi do tend to tempt with emotion, passion, or immediate physical rewards rather than the more Devilish power, influence and pride temptations. However, I think the concept that if a Succubi were a Devil, it would simply throw up rules to get in its way is just as reductionist of towards the idea of Law being staid and unyielding as the idea that chaos cannot be subtle or plan for the long term.



That is what annoyed me. There were tons of 4E marketing articles openly insulting planescape people and elaborating on how the lore was horrible. I played long, involved campaigns that involved characters like Graz'zt, Pale Night, Red Shroud and other subtle demons. They can work, and work well.

Fair enough, perhaps my seeing the rage over Succubi flipping over the fence to the other side was just me seeing the tip of the iceberg.

To me, Succubi fit better as devils because to me the devil mission statement can be reduced to: "You can have whatever you want, it'll just cost you..." and the demon mission statement would be more like: "Everyone is lying to you, you CAN have freedom. This is what it looks like."

Urpriest
2013-03-26, 07:35 PM
EDIT: Demons can't be conjured, but Devils will serve pretty much anyone if it furthers their own goals and/or in exchange for souls (if they're summoned instead of called, they don't really require anything obviously). You don't need to be LE to summon Devils, CE or even LG does just fine. Devils might be worried that Good people just want to slay them, though.

I feel like this is a bad idea, mechanically speaking. The Summon Monster lists are built with the expectation that Clerics get access to a certain chunk of the list based on their alignment. Fiddling with that seems unnecessarily risky.

Deffers
2013-03-26, 08:44 PM
Sounds to me like, since they take payment in souls, most good-aligned clerics wouldn't be able to get the gods (or angels, as the case may be) to just shunt off some unfortunates off of Heaven for the sake of getting extra powers (although there might be an interesting plot hook in making some sort of soul exchange happen between Heaven and Hell-- but then suddenly the cosmology becomes more Disgaea than DnD once that happens :smalltongue:).

I dunno. I kind of like the idea of survivor devils that aren't evil for its own sake or for a stupid-ass war anymore, but because now they have to survive and being made of evil, the only way they can do that is to corrupt souls into devils.

They might even make interesting villain protagonists. The whole "will even serve Good people for payment" dealie just kind of helps reinforce that.

Kane0
2013-03-27, 09:23 PM
Don't forget that Succubi aren't the only fiends that can & will offer physical temptation & pleasure to mortals. They are just the posterfiends for it.

Plenty of Devils would do the same kind of thing if it furthered their goals. Spawning half-devils can be a valuable investment when on the Prime.

You don't have to makes Succubi Devils, just let certain Devils do things like Succubi and make Succubi far less common. Erinyes and Pleasure Devils (FC II) both fit the bill pretty well, and plenty of Devils can assume alternate forms.

SilverLeaf167
2013-03-28, 12:10 AM
Don't forget that Succubi aren't the only fiends that can & will offer physical temptation & pleasure to mortals. They are just the posterfiends for it.

Plenty of Devils would do the same kind of thing if it furthered their goals. Spawning half-devils can be a valuable investment when on the Prime.

You don't have to makes Succubi Devils, just let certain Devils do things like Succubi and make Succubi far less common. Erinyes and Pleasure Devils (FC II) both fit the bill pretty well, and plenty of Devils can assume alternate forms.

If I kept them as demons, I'd also get to creep the players out with a morphing Cthulhubus :smallamused:

SilverLeaf167
2013-03-29, 01:24 AM
Okay, about Gods:

I've been thinking a bit about how to make them seem less omnipotent: in a D&D game, the gods being omnipotent makes it hard for one to think of sensible plot hooks that don't just raise the question of "Why don't the gods do it?". So, I think I might make it so that gods can only act through their servants, Outsiders and avatars, in that order, but using the next "tier" is sort-of permission for any other interested gods to use it as well. This is sort of a Mutually Assured Destruction deal between deities: if one of them breaks out the big guns, all others can do so too. So if the God of Freedom sends a whole bunch of celestials to capture some prisoners of War, the God of War then has every right to respond by fortifying their defenses with some fiends, if he so finds them important enough or just doesn't like Freedom. None of the gods definitely want to show up themselves, since they would then be vulnerable to any other gods who would most likely be pissed about the direct intervention.

Another one that might be slightly too extreme is an idea I got while reading through the divine rules. Any deity can only sense places dedicated to them, places where their portfolio is well represented (God of Nature can basically see everywhere in natural areas, for example, giving him a handy benefit) AND places where their name has been spoken lately. This is why most people prefer to use the gods' titles instead, saving their names for prayers or times of true need (though the gods usually don't offer direct and immediate help anyway). And no, these "God of X" things I've been using aren't their titles, just easy ways to refer to them until I think of names. :smalltongue: On the other hand, Clerics and other very devout followers probably keep saying their patron's name very frequently and never ever speak aloud the names of their enemies. This whole system helps alleviate the gods' annoying omniscience, as well as allowing for some rather unique plot hooks: "Find your way into the inner sanctum of the unholy temple during the service and speak our gods' name so he can see what is going on".

Ravens_cry
2013-03-29, 08:27 AM
I had a somewhat similar idea where the Abyss and Hells wasn't demon's and devil's home, it was their prison. The reason they want souls is not so much the value of a soul in itself, but the fact a soul must pierce the barrier imprisoning the fiends, as does summoning them. Which is why a being as old as the universe would be willing to serve a mortal. No matter how degrading the task, it's a temporary reprieve from, literally, Hell, and further weakened the barrier.
Also, the Nine Hells and the Abyss were one plane but separated, rather like the Arcadia.

Mastikator
2013-03-30, 01:56 AM
I once played a game were demons were basically anti-creations. Magic had a "rule of return" kinda thing, anything you did with magic would be canceled out by an opposite effect somewhere else (usually over a large area with unnoticable effect, on crit fails you got the opposite on yourself). For instance if you created fire with magic someone else's camp fire would go out (or a forest fire might get lessened).

When the first beings used magic to create the world demons were created as opposites of the world, they were imprisoned by the first beings, some went into hiding and went to sleep to wait for their chance. Thousands of years passed with the demons either tucked away in another dimension or asleep in the earth. The first beings then left leaving the mortal races to fend for themselves against impossibly powerful beings bent of ending creation.

SilverLeaf167
2013-03-30, 04:15 AM
I'm currently working on the gods and cosmology... On a laptop with no internet, so I can't really post much of it until next week. It's pretty much the basic planes (modified to taste) with some "superficial" ones left out. Can anyone convince me to keep the likes of Ysgard? :smallamused:

Kane0
2013-03-30, 04:30 AM
You may want to check Afro's Planar thread, it can be pretty handy for you.

As for Ysgard, off the top of my head it has the world tree which is like the River Styx, able to transport you along planes, and is one of the few (only?) planes where the locals don't get absorbed into the plane upon death.

Also it's where good vikings (barbarians?) go when they die, what other reason do you need?

SilverLeaf167
2013-03-31, 03:48 AM
Looking at Ysgard... Could a dying character be shifted there and killed by their allies for a free true resurrection? :smalltongue:

Kane0
2013-03-31, 04:05 AM
No, only works for natives to Ysgard (petitioners and Ysgardian outsiders), and it revives them there (presumably in a feast hall).

Others die as normal.