Rolling for point buy value

[TuggyNE]

So, I don't think I've heard anyone seriously suggest this, but it seems like, with all the enormous variations on stat-rolling procedures, somebody must surely do this.

Specific examples: 5d8+10 for 3.5 point buy (gives a median of 32 or 33 PB, and a minimum of 15); 4d6+6 for PF point buy (gives a median of 20, a min of 10, and a max of 30).

Now, of course, this is likely to have some of the problems of rolling (namely, party imbalance) and some of the problems of point buy (such as feeling inorganic, being tricky to calculate, etc), as well as one or two problems of its own (like leftover points). But practical problems and mathematical inadequacy have never stopped gamers from implementing other crazy rolling systems, so why would they be an obstacle here? :smallbiggrin:

[Feel free to reply with suggestions, ridicule, or more examples suitable for various power levels. :smallamused:]

[Ashtagon]

My favourite, but it requires a spreadsheet...


Pick a target point-buy value.
Assign each ability score a number from one to six.
Assign each ability score a base value of 8 points (zero-point buy equivalent).
Roll 1d6. Add one point to that ability score.
Recalculate the point-buy value.
Repeat steps 4-5 until the total point-buy value meets or exceeds the target point-buy value.
Swap any two ability scores with each other.
Swap any two ability scores with each other again.

[Malimar]

It's occurred to me to do something along the lines of: roll 5 times. 3d6 or 4d6b3 or 1d20 whatever thing you want to use. Then you set the sixth one to whatever number would leave you with the desired point buy. If no such number exists, reroll the fifth one until one does. Then you assign these six numbers to whichever stats you want.

Example: I just rolled 5x3d6 and came up with {9, 11, 9, 14, 14}. If I'm aiming for 3.5e-style 30PB, the last number must be 17.

Has the interesting randomness of rolling, but the party still winds up balanced.

[Kristinn]

I like the randomness of rolling, but it is frustrating to try for example to play a Druid or Wizard without starting 18 Wis/Int.

My solution? Everyone gets one free 18, place wherever you want. Then roll 4d6, drop lowest, in order. Then swap two ability scores (once).

[mcv]

Why would you want to combine the downsides of point buy with the downsides of random stats?

I'd rather go the opposite way: get the steady point buy total, but randomly roll where they get assigned. Choose five stats to roll, and the remaining points go into the sixth stat, or something.

[Keneth]

I really don't see what the downside of point buy is. Everyone is equal, everyone gets the kind of character they want (or close to it), and it's really not that hard to calculate (just use a point buy calculator if it's too tedious to do by hand). Given the option, I never wanna roll a single die at character creation, it just leaves a poor taste in my mouth.

[zlefin]

Why would you want to combine the downsides of point buy with the downsides of random stats?

I'd rather go the opposite way: get the steady point buy total, but randomly roll where they get assigned. Choose five stats to roll, and the remaining points go into the sixth stat, or something.

you might like this table:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Point_Buy,_Generate_Random

[mcv]

I really don't see what the downside of point buy is. Everyone is equal, everyone gets the kind of character they want (or close to it), and it's really not that hard to calculate (just use a point buy calculator if it's too tedious to do by hand). Given the option, I never wanna roll a single die at character creation, it just leaves a poor taste in my mouth.

Tastes differ, though. Balance is definitely the big advantage of point buy (which is what you throw away by deciding the number of points randomly). But having interesting, unexpected stats, unusual weaknesses and strengths, adds a layer of interestingness to characters that a lot of people value.

Every fighter having sky high Str and dumping mental stats gets boring. Compare Roy of OOTS with his high mental stats. Wouldn't it be interesting to play a fighter like that once? But you won't, because you'll be less effective for it, because everybody else does optimize their stats. Randomness means less optimization and more unexpected and therefore interesting results. Some people like that.

Also, less decisions means faster character creation.

[Trunamer]

So, I don't think I've heard anyone seriously suggest this, but it seems like, with all the enormous variations on stat-rolling procedures, somebody must surely do this.
Congratulations, you have clearly and succinctly combined the worst aspects of point buy and rolling while simultaneously excluding the best parts. This is quite possibly the Lamed King of all terribad house rules. :smallwink:

[Amphetryon]

It's occurred to me to do something along the lines of: roll 5 times. 3d6 or 4d6b3 or 1d20 whatever thing you want to use. Then you set the sixth one to whatever number would leave you with the desired point buy. If no such number exists, reroll the fifth one until one does. Then you assign these six numbers to whichever stats you want.

Example: I just rolled 5x3d6 and came up with {9, 11, 9, 14, 14}. If I'm aiming for 3.5e-style 30PB, the last number must be 17.

Has the interesting randomness of rolling, but the party still winds up balanced.
That's. . . a pretty nifty idea, Malimar. :smallsmile:

[Keneth]

But having interesting, unexpected stats, unusual weaknesses and strengths, adds a layer of interestingness to characters that a lot of people value.

Also, less decisions means faster character creation.

You don't need forced randomness to create unique characters. The inclination to optimize is, of course, stronger when using point buy, but the simple fact is, if you can't make a gimped character without rolling random stats, it's likely you don't want to play one in the first place. Plus, nothing sucks more than when the other guy gets the equivalent of 50 point buy, and you get about 20. Sure, there's usually re-rolls, but then what's the point of rolling in the first place?

Also, why rush the character creation process? If you're really in that much of a hurry, it's faster to use standard arrays.

[TuggyNE]

These various alternate suggestions for similar things are definitely interesting (and probably more sensible than my initial proposition).


Why would you want to combine the downsides of point buy with the downsides of random stats?

Ah, but that's the key: I don't! :smallbiggrin: But I can't imagine that no one has ever tried it, so … consider this an exercise in determining the limits of human ingenuity and foolishness combined.


Congratulations, you have clearly and succinctly combined the worst aspects of point buy and rolling while simultaneously excluding the best parts. This is quite possibly the Lamed King of all terribad house rules. :smallwink:

Why thank you! I think. Although… there are a fair number of houserules I've heard of that are even worse. (All Wizards/Clerics/Druids cast spontaneously, for example.)

[ddude987]

As a DM I alway allow my players a 42pb because why the hell not? I'm sure there is massive abuse with that but we don't op usually. My usual DM however enjoys rolling and allows re-rolls. Also we are allowed to assign any number rolled to any stat. I can't imagine rolling per stat... then you would be forced into certain classes or suffer a lot.

[Barsoom]

My favourite, but it requires a spreadsheet...


Pick a target point-buy value.
Assign each ability score a number from one to six.
Assign each ability score a base value of 8 points (zero-point buy equivalent).
Roll 1d6. Add one point to that ability score.
Recalculate the point-buy value.
Repeat steps 4-5 until the total point-buy value meets or exceeds the target point-buy value.
Swap any two ability scores with each other.
Swap any two ability scores with each other again.
An interesting method, but aren't you very likely to end up with all your abilities in the 12-15 range, without a single exceptional one?

[Techwarrior]

I actually had a DM once who had us roll the dice for starting gold, add 5 and that was our point buy total.

Like so:

Rangers, Fighters, Paladins 6d4+5
Clerics, Monks, Rogues 5d4+5
Bards, Barbarians 4d4+5
Wizards, Sorcerers 3d4+5
Druids 2d4+5

[Ashtagon]

An interesting method, but aren't you very likely to end up with all your abilities in the 12-15 range, without a single exceptional one?

I ran a spreadsheet on the method and did a few dozen iterations. The spread was actually quite wide, and even with the "standard" 3.5e point buy, I rolled the occasional 19 or 20 for some stats. There were even a couple of characters who had an 8 in their stats. Most results created very playable characters with a highest score in the 16-18 range.

Randomness is actually quite uneven on the small scale of the number of rolls required to generate a character. This would be easier to explain with a diagram, but as a thought experiment, imagine rolling 1d100 twice and plot an X on a graph to represent that result, then repeating that 50 more times. If you DON'T end up with a concentration of X's somewhere, then I'd be rather surprised. Randomness rarely means "smoothly distributed".

[mcv]

You don't need forced randomness to create unique characters. The inclination to optimize is, of course, stronger when using point buy, but the simple fact is, if you can't make a gimped character without rolling random stats, it's likely you don't want to play one in the first place.
Of course anyone can intentionally gimp his own character, and of course almost nobody is actually going to do that. And yet lots of people lament the fact that most fighters look the same, most wizards look the same, etc.

The real issue is that you and many other people consider any non-optimized character gimped in the first place. A fighter with Str 15 is only gimped if every other fighter in the realm has Str 18. A wizard with Int 16 is only gimped when all other wizards have Int 18. But an Int 16 wizard is perfectly playable. He can still cast spells and do all that wizardly stuff.

There are lots of people who do appreciate the randomness and unpredictability of die rolling. Some even consider unpredictable weird stuff the entire point of roleplaying.


Plus, nothing sucks more than when the other guy gets the equivalent of 50 point buy, and you get about 20.
Exactly. That is the big downside of random rolling. And that is why I propose a way to roll randomly that avoids that problem.


Also, why rush the character creation process? If you're really in that much of a hurry, it's faster to use standard arrays.
Then you still get the same old boringness as everybody else. Why not play a unique character with the same effort?

I'm not saying that you have to roll randomly, I'm just saying there are very valid reasons for doing so. Your style of play is not the only one. For much of the history of D&D, people did roll randomly, and lots of people still do. Do you think they've never heard of point buy? They have, and they feel it's not good enough.

[Keneth]

I'm not saying that you have to roll randomly, I'm just saying there are very valid reasons for doing so.

And yet, you haven't given me a single one, other than "some people like that". Some people also like eating scorpions, but that doesn't mean it's a good way to get your daily protein intake. :smallbiggrin:

[nobodez]

I actually had a DM once who had us roll the dice for starting gold, add 5 and that was our point buy total.

Like so:

Rangers, Fighters, Paladins 6d4+5
Clerics, Monks, Rogues 5d4+5
Bards, Barbarians 4d4+5
Wizards, Sorcerers 3d4+5
Druids 2d4+5

This seems wrong on many levels (though, if you're using the old pre-PH2 polymorph rules it would work better for druids, otherwise they're just screwed).

6d4 averages to 15, plus 5 is 20 (min 11, max 29)
5d4 averages to 12.5, plus 5 is 17.5 (min 10, max 25)
4d4 averages to 10, plus 5 is 15 (min 9, max 21)
3d4 averages to 7.5, plus 5 is 12.5 (min 8, max 17)
2d4 averages to 5, plus 5 is 10 (min 7, max 13)

So, your druid has a max that is only barely above the minimum of the Fighters/Paladins/Rangers and barely above the average for Clerics/Monks/Rogues. Seems like you'd never have anything but Fighters/Ranger/Paladins and Clerics/Monks/Rogues.

[Gnome Alone]

PB's so boring it makes me want to cry. And I hate how odd numbers get screwed. A 17 costs way more than a 16, but mechanically? Mostly the same. But 17 is an interesting stat - say I'm a 17 INT wizard; I'm not the smartest guy you've ever met, but close.

[Gnome Alone]

So if I roll a 17 or a 13 or whatever, I'm more jazzed about finding a place for that specific roll than I am if I have my stats as a soup and have to be all, "Well, I guess I can't have 11 WIS cuz I want 14 CON." BoRING, boRING, it's for you!

[Lonely Tylenol]

This seems wrong on many levels (though, if you're using the old pre-PH2 polymorph rules it would work better for druids, otherwise they're just screwed).

6d4 averages to 15, plus 5 is 20 (min 11, max 29)
5d4 averages to 12.5, plus 5 is 17.5 (min 10, max 25)
4d4 averages to 10, plus 5 is 15 (min 9, max 21)
3d4 averages to 7.5, plus 5 is 12.5 (min 8, max 17)
2d4 averages to 5, plus 5 is 10 (min 7, max 13)

So, your druid has a max that is only barely above the minimum of the Fighters/Paladins/Rangers and barely above the average for Clerics/Monks/Rogues. Seems like you'd never have anything but Fighters/Ranger/Paladins and Clerics/Monks/Rogues.

Quite the opposite: a 10 point buy gives me a 16 in my casting stat, which makes me more powerful than a fighter at all levels. Wild Shape changes my STR, DEX and CON scores (but not my bonus HP from CON), so I don't need to have stellar physical scores in the first place, although 10PB gives me 14 WIS and 12 CON if I'm at low levels and hit points are a legitimate issue.

On the other side of that coin, Paladins, Rangers, Fighters, Rogues and Monks are all SAD, and a 17.5PB doesn't even get you a +2 modifier on three stats the cheapest possible way. If you want a decent STR, DEX, and CON--and I mean "decent", and not "good"--then you have an 8 in all your mental scores. If you are a Paladin, and also need a decent WIS and CHA, or a Ranger or Monk, who also needs a decent WIS... Well... Tough buggies.

If you added 15 to all these values instead of 5, then each class could cover all the essentials without having too many extraneous points--which is to say, a Wizard has his INT score with maybe a few points in DEX or CON, and the Monk has good STR, CON, and at least serviceable WIS and DEX. As it stands, though, this particular system punishes mundanes the most.

[TuggyNE]

I don't think I gave this more than a vague allusion in the OP, but one thing you could reasonably do with this to deal with leftover point buy values is combine it with a houserule to fold in level-up ability score increases. That is, have level-ups (either every fourth, or just every level for higher granularity) add to your point buy pool and simultaneously allow you to spend those new points. You probably want to have them add 3 or 4 for each time you'd have previously added to an 18 or whatever, which is why increasing the pool by 1 every level works out OK.

Of course, since you can do that just as well without the initial randomness…. :smallcool:


PB's so boring it makes me want to cry. And I hate how odd numbers get screwed. A 17 costs way more than a 16, but mechanically? Mostly the same. But 17 is an interesting stat - say I'm a 17 INT wizard; I'm not the smartest guy you've ever met, but close.

Well, for that you want PF's point buy; odd numbers cost the same to increase as the previous even number, but each new even number costs more. (As opposed to 3.5's, where increases happen on the odd numbers.)

Still not ideal, perhaps, but it's a lot more sane.

[Gnome Alone]

I was mainly responding to Keneth's request for a valid reason, but couldn't say so b/c of my phone's accursed character limit.

What I really prefer over straight rolling is that "roll 3 stats, subtract one of them each from 27, 25, 23" method.

[Keneth]

I was mainly responding to Keneth's request for a valid reason, but couldn't say so b/c of my phone's accursed character limit.

So your idea for a valid reason is you like odds better than evens? :smallconfused:

Like I said, I completely understand that some people like rolling, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no mechanical upside to rolling. Randomness is a personal preference.

[mcv]

And yet, you haven't given me a single one, other than "some people like that".
Is enjoyment not a valid reason when you're playing a game?



6d4 averages to 15, plus 5 is 20 (min 11, max 29)
5d4 averages to 12.5, plus 5 is 17.5 (min 10, max 25)
4d4 averages to 10, plus 5 is 15 (min 9, max 21)
3d4 averages to 7.5, plus 5 is 12.5 (min 8, max 17)
2d4 averages to 5, plus 5 is 10 (min 7, max 13)

So, your druid has a max that is only barely above the minimum of the Fighters/Paladins/Rangers and barely above the average for Clerics/Monks/Rogues. Seems like you'd never have anything but Fighters/Ranger/Paladins and Clerics/Monks/Rogues.
At least is makes for a nice reversal of the usual tiers. I can see this working.

[Keneth]

Is enjoyment not a valid reason when you're playing a game?

I couldn't tell you. Joy might be beyond the scope of emotions I am capable of experiencing. If you're saying randomness in character creation results in your enjoyment of the actual game, I guess I can accept that. But if someone asks me why they would want to roll their stats as opposed to using point buy, saying "because you might like it" isn't really a good selling point.

A devil and a demon get trapped by a conjurer's summons. Since there's nothing better to do, the devil asks the demon why he enjoys mindless slaughter so much. The demon explains at length how wanton destruction is a cathartic experience for him, but while the devil can certainly understand the desire to kill for fun, he simply can't see why all that energy isn't focused toward efficiency.

[mcv]

I couldn't tell you. Joy might be beyond the scope of emotions I am capable of experiencing. If you're saying randomness in character creation results in your enjoyment of the actual game, I guess I can accept that. But if someone asks me why they would want to roll their stats as opposed to using point buy, saying "because you might like it" isn't really a good selling point.

Wow. I admit I was expecting a discussion about how different people like different things. I wasn't really expecting the value of fun itself being questioned on a game forum.

So, why do you play RPGs actually?

[Keneth]

I wasn't really expecting the value of fun itself being questioned on a game forum.

It's not that I don't understand that you find it fun. And I can appreciate what that means for you, even if I can't quite grasp the concept. I just can't seem to understand why you find it fun if there's no upside to it. You gain nothing by rolling.


So, why do you play RPGs actually?

They occupy my mind. It's one of the few things that never get boring for me.

[Gnome Alone]

So your idea for a valid reason is you like odds better than evens?
Yes.
Well, I like the possibility of having odds without having to screw myself over on PURPOSE for them. The chance of randomly screwing myself? Fine.

[mcv]

It's not that I don't understand that you find it fun. And I can appreciate what that means for you, even if I can't quite grasp the concept. I just can't seem to understand why you find it fun if there's no upside to it. You gain nothing by rolling.
You do gain something by rolling: you gain unpredictability. You have to adapt to what you get. Instead of the same predictable super-optimized build that everybody else has, you get something unique, with unexpected strengths and weaknesses.

It's not how I usually play, but so many people swear by it, that I'm sure they must be on to something. And Traveller's character generation system is easily the most fun one I've ever seen, and it relies on a mixture of choice and randomness to get you something unique.


They occupy my mind. It's one of the few things that never get boring for me.
Books don't work?

[Keneth]

You do gain something by rolling: you gain unpredictability.

Yeah, but that's one of the downsides, not a good thing. What this actually does, is absolve you from making a conscious decision to play a unique character, even though you really want to. If the only way for you to do that, is to force yourself, then the real problem lies inside your head. Introducing chaos to offset your irrationality really isn't a sane way of resolving this issue.

(Please try not to take this as me saying you're insane. I'm merely trying to point out the silliness of the human condition.)


Books don't work?

Books are a static, linear, one way narrative. Which is not to say I don't love reading books, I do, but they lack the complexity and nuances of tabletop roleplaying.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I always preferred rolling, partially for the challenge, partially for the variety, and partially just for the excitement.

One thing I've considered is having people compute the point-buy total after their roll, and getting free feats or other benefits if they did particularly poorly; keeps the random aspect, but no one gets utterly screwed.

Also, I generally feel like rolling systems make the MAD characters more playable.

Also, it's fun to have non-optimized aspects to characters; if someone is building a character out of point buy, they'll usually feel rather obligated to focus all of their limited points on the stats they need most - so, you won't get dashing and charismatic fighters, wizards that could arm-wrestle orangutangs, acrobatic clerics or other sorts of weird and flavourful, but very non-optimized, builds.