infinite enemies? is it fair?

[Wookie-ranger]

OK, I had a little debate last night and I need some help.

I like to write settings, but am a bad DM (aka story teller/ fast thinker). luckily a friend of mine is a great DM, but has absolutely no time (or creativity, sorry) to write a good adventure.
So I write the setting, he throws the PCs in it. It is more of a sand box kind of play, but there are definably enough stories the PCs can get mixed up in. But if they want to take on the Lich in the towns cemetery at level 2, it is their funeral, and they know it.

In a campaign I designed (well about 75% of it) the players ended up in the middle of the never-ending war between the abyss and hell; Think: Blood War.
They are right there on the battle field and everything is fighting around them.... they have been told numerous times that there are Devils and Demons all round them, as far as the eye can see.
There also was a way out for them; a portal that could only be used by mortals back to the material plane. It was about 100-150 feet away from them.

This portal was kind of important. It was a BIG part in the campaign and the reason why one of the arch devils had himself transformed himself into a human (mere possession wouldn't do); but once on the other side, the cultists that were to transform him back to his old glorious self just so happened to be dead; killed by the PCs the week before. Resulting in his hatred for the PCs, and a big problem of what to do, bc if he died, he would actually be dead, not just send back to hell, and most of his followers didn't know about his plan and those that did would crave his power (so no help from them).... long story, but basically they could not have missed, or forgotten about the portal.

So they are there, fighting the life long day.... slowly running out of spells/scrolls/charges/etc... waiting for something to happen.
It resulted almost in tpk... one of the PCs got out after all the others were killed with a finger from each to get them back. He teleported out, but did not use the portal...

It was the end of the session and they were pretty annoyed. they said that there should have been an easier way back, something more obvious. That it was not fair that there was an infinite amounts of enemies to fight.

OK, who is right here?
I think I am, it is the Blood War.... if a simple group of adventurers could drive back one side or the other, or even end it for good, then it would have ended centuries ago.

[Golden Ladybug]

I think this is just a case of the Player's not thinking about things properly, or forgetting details (I mean, its not too hard to forget about clarifying things, and I can see a group not thinking to ask if the Portal was still open while they were fighting for their lives).

Fighting against an Infinite Number of Foes in a scenario where it not only makes sense for their to be an Infinite Number of Foes, but would not make sense for their to be a Finite number of foes? Yeah, I think its fair. As long as the PCs where aware of this setting element, of course.

[ImaginaryDragon]

As long as you mentioned the big glowy portal or whatever, then yeah, they're just kinda dumb in this particular instance.

[Keneth]

In an impossible situation where the players themselves are unable to see the given solution, they should be able to make an ability check (usually Int, sometimes Wis) to determine what the prudent course of action should be. After all, their characters almost always know more than they do, and can see things that the players might have trouble accurately imagining.

I agree that the situation was fair and that the characters should not have been able to significantly alter the situation they were in. That said, you should (almost) never create scenarios with only one possible solution and expect the players to see what that solution is (unless it's "kill everything"). It's also up to the DM to remind the players of their options when things are spiraling out of control. Players will oftentimes forget simple things like rolling ability or skill checks in a combat situation.

[Crustypeanut]

Yup.. sounds more like they got caught up in the blood war and forgot that they're not demons and devils.

:smallbiggrin:

[Gotterdammerung]

You didn't do anything wrong per se, but it is the DM's job to tell a good story and to properly explain the world to the group. I see 2 possible mistakes you might of made. There aren't really enough details for me to accurately judge the situation, though.

#1 If the group felt like the golden ticket out of that hell hole was a little vague then it is possible you didn't explain the scenario adequately.

#2 If the golden ticket out was truly too difficult for the party to accomplish without several deaths then you likely built the scenario wrong.


It is just as likely that the party didn't pay attention when you explained things, or the party made bad tactical choices. When designing an outside the box scenario you often catch players by surprise. There is a reliable and predictable amount of subconscious meta-gaming at most tables. I recommend before you run an outside the box challenge, talking to your players about the very real and unusual danger they are about to face. And emphasizing that the CR system has been temporarily replaced with a realistic danger mechanic.

I had to learn this the hard way, and it took me several different tries :smallredface:

For example, I once ran a mod where the players had to take on an orc raiding camp. The whole camp consisted of around 20 regular orcs, 10 orcs with ftr/brb lvls, 2 giants, and one strong cleric of grumsh. They knew these numbers through scouting (they didn't know class lvls but they knew 31 orcs and 2 giants) which is why I was surprised when they decided to just charge into the camp and face them all at once. They were quickly dispatched and very mad at me for some reason. After some talking it came out that they were relying on the CR mechanic to protect them. So they felt safe and justified in their reckless tactics.

I later ran the exact same mod with a different group but prefaced the mod by explaining that traditional CR mechanics will not protect you. Choose your battles wisely, make your own windows for combat, run when the odds are against you, ect, ect...
This time the party easily dispatched the entire orc camp by whittling their forces down through guerrilla tactics.

:smallsmile:So TL;DR make sure your party isn't meta-gaming the CR system before you attempt to step outside that system, otherwise it can be like pulling a chair out from under someone. :smallsmile:

[Forrestfire]

Wow, that's some serious tunnel vision they had there.



Yup.. sounds more like they got caught up in the blood war and forgot that they're not demons and devils.

:smallbiggrin:

Maybe their performance fighting to the death there drew the attention of some powerful fiend(s), and when they get resurrection they'll have new plot hooks/minor powers/opportunities.

Or a pit fiend who really wants them to be on his payroll.

[Killer Angel]

The setting is fairly specific, and the characters may be involved in different fighting scenarios, with different available approaches.
A skirmish? They can wipe the field.
A small battle? They can hide, or they can change the tide of the fight, looking for an alliance.
A full-scale large battle? Yeah, there will be a sufficiently large amount of fiends, that you can consider them basically infinite. You should leave ASAP. Without complaining. :smallamused:

[dysprosium]

I'm also speaking from experience here. Sometimes the players think that they are invincible and can withstand any and all obstacles or enemies.

Then when the going gets too rough they rely on the DM to get them the heck out of there.

But if it was described to me that the Blood War was going on all around me and my party (and especially when our resources were low), I would ask the DM to explain the terrain and layout again to me. Glowy portal = get out of Dodge.

[Keneth]

They were quickly dispatched and very mad at me for some reason. After some talking it came out that they were relying on the CR mechanic to protect them. So they felt safe and justified in their reckless tactics.

Why would any player rely on an arbitrary value that's only there to help the DM create an encounter and reward XP? Every experienced player should know that CR doesn't mean squat and that metagaming is clearly a bad thing, especially when executed poorly. You shouldn't have to point that out, nor should anyone be mad when the result of a dumb tactic isn't what they expected. :smallconfused:

[Andreaz]

Totally fair.

You set up a volcano flooding with lava and a small bridge to safety. They decided to swim in the lava.

[Callin]

"XP CHARGE!!!!!!!!!!!!"

6 hours later and most of the party dead.
"Dude that was way to hard. Tone it down next time"

[Gotterdammerung]

Why would any player rely on an arbitrary value that's only there to help the DM create an encounter and reward XP?
Force of habit. Subconscious cheating. Too used to video games. And many many more reasons.


Every experienced player should know that CR doesn't mean squat and that metagaming is clearly a bad thing, especially when executed poorly. You shouldn't have to point that out, nor should anyone be mad when the result of a dumb tactic isn't what they expected. :smallconfused:

In a perfect world, your right. But if one simple sentence prefacing the beginning of the mod can eliminate all chance of something so small ruining a session, even if the bad taste in their mouth wouldn't have been justified, then why not go ahead and say that sentence? When I D.M. I prioritize entertainment above everything else. Sometimes that means spelling things out or dumbing things down, sometimes it doesn't. Ultimately every GM has to properly judge their gamers and decide what is right for their party, hyper realism complete with harsh consequences can be great, but it can also send certain players running from your table like it is on fire.

[Keneth]

I prefer teaching my players these lessons the lethal way. :smallbiggrin:

[andromax]

As a player, a few years ago I can see myself in their shoes.. a little annoyed and wondering how or why that happened. Sort of blaming the DM or whatever for shoving a too-tough encounter down our throats.

Today.. I understand that rushing headlong into battle isn't always the way to win, and I wouldn't blame anyone but myself for that outcome.

So it just depends on your level of d&d maturity as to whether you think it's fair or not.

[Zerter]

The goal as DM is to make sure your players entertain themselves. I don't know your party, but in my experience it sucks when the risks are not real. If they knew how the game worked and complain anyway, it's probably because they want to manipulate you because they did not find it enjoyable in the shortterm. In the longterm however when they do succeed they will feel more of a reward, so not only were the actions fair, they were also the right thing to do as DM.

[Roog]

So they are there, fighting the life long day.... slowly running out of spells/scrolls/charges/etc... waiting for something to happen.
It resulted almost in tpk... one of the PCs got out after all the others were killed with a finger from each to get them back. He teleported out, but did not use the portal...

It was the end of the session and they were pretty annoyed. they said that there should have been an easier way back, something more obvious.

Obviously there was an easier way back - teleport.

They just chose not to use it as soon as they could have.

The question I would have for the OP, is:
Why would you expect the PCs to hang around and investigate the portal?

[Urpriest]

You seem to be under a pretty significant misunderstanding. The Blood War is a war, not a battle. You can't just walk into the middle of it. You can be in the middle of one battle of the Blood War, but that's rather different: both sides will be pursing objectives, not just mindlessly running at eachother forever.

Basically, I don't see why either the Demons or the Devils present would have had any reason to fight the players, unless the players intentionally provoked them. They have jobs to do and their hated enemies to fight, after all. The players would probably have to survive the crossfire and the occasional demon who breaks ranks to attack the yummy mortals, but not an infinite army.

[chainlink]

OK, who is right here?

Simple. They were meta gaming and paid the price.

In fact if my players actually said they expected the CR system to save them (they very much wouldn't they understand the point of the game but if) I'd kill em all for the audacity.

EDIT: LOL kill the characters...obviously. Just realized how that sounded ha.

[Deophaun]

You seem to be under a pretty significant misunderstanding. The Blood War is a war, not a battle. You can't just walk into the middle of it. You can be in the middle of one battle of the Blood War, but that's rather different: both sides will be pursing objectives, not just mindlessly running at eachother forever.
Well, there was a portal there, which could easily have been the objective. Of course, aware PCs would have realized that whatever was on the other side of that portal would soon be overrun with demons/devils, and they would hate to be in the position of whatever lived over there.

Then they step through, and they're back home.

Basically, I don't see why either the Demons or the Devils present would have had any reason to fight the players, unless the players intentionally provoked them.
Demons and devils have shapechangers galore, and they don't all have true sight. If they don't recognize the players, they're probably on the other side. Of course, if the players are beset by a horde of demons and fight them, the devils might think they're allies. If the characters don't have Knowledge (the planes) to tell the sides apart, they would probably cure the devils of that misconception real quick, to the party's misfortune.

[Menzath]

nah that happens to alot of people, even a few in my group.
As a player I am crazy about rembering terrain (Used to play old skool EQ, no maps).
Point in case we were lvl2 in shackled city fighting the guy in malachite hold and hit cute pet. Our tank/fighter got himself killed.
So on the spot I saw him get to like 5hp, and said this is not looking good, let's retreat. He was like, nah screw yous guys.
The reast of my party was unsure and so decided to follow me out to the room just before him.
I (we had everything drawn on a grid) told the party to start walking to the other end of the hallway and call taunts out to the boss(standerd cocky adventure's style) and I drank a potion of spider climb we happend to have, I sat over a lever for a spiked pit trap with the readied action to sping it when he got to it. And viole, instant win.

And the rest of the party, and the DM were sorta wow'ed by the whole thing.
I was just "well we were hurt and running, if the trap hasn't been put to use yet, well I'll put it to good use. At the least it would have bought us time to retreat."
But we just ended up arrowing him till he gave up in the pit. An we captured him.

[Keneth]

You can be in the middle of one battle of the Blood War, but that's rather different: both sides will be pursing objectives, not just mindlessly running at eachother forever.

Well, the devils are pursuing objectives. The demons' objective is usually "swarm the area and kill everything". :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

At some point you say "OOC - PORTAL, DAMMIT!".

[Mnemnosyne]

You seem to be under a pretty significant misunderstanding. The Blood War is a war, not a battle. You can't just walk into the middle of it. You can be in the middle of one battle of the Blood War, but that's rather different: both sides will be pursing objectives, not just mindlessly running at eachother forever.

Basically, I don't see why either the Demons or the Devils present would have had any reason to fight the players, unless the players intentionally provoked them. They have jobs to do and their hated enemies to fight, after all. The players would probably have to survive the crossfire and the occasional demon who breaks ranks to attack the yummy mortals, but not an infinite army.
Even a single battle in the blood war often involves thousands or tens of thousands on each side. The big ones involve armies of millions. And in a situation like that, anyone not on your side is assumed to be on their side, so both sides would see the characters as potential enemies. Don't forget that both baatezu and tanar'ri use mortals pretty often in their ranks, so the presence of enemy mortals would not be particularly bizarre, nor would it be prudent to ignore them. Even if they're not working for the other side, they could very well be working for another interested party that wants to harm your side's plans, otherwise why would they even be there?

[Erik Vale]

I'm going to have to agree here, they should have known to use the portal. However, it would have been useful to check after the third/forth fight that they still remembered it existed with the as mentioned


"OOC - PORTAL, DAMMIT!".

[Flickerdart]

When you're a thousand gibbering incarnations of pure evil given flesh, taking a moment out of your day to brutally slaughter a couple of chumps who are standing between you and the guys you cane here to fight sounds about par for the course.

[ericgrau]

Here character knowledge > player knowledge, so just tell them.

[Amnestic]

Here character knowledge > player knowledge, so just tell them.

It's a good point - the players may have gotten lost in the fight, but their characters would likely be more than aware of the giant portal thingy (especially if it was so close). A reminder after a fight or two as suggested would be a good plan. The players can't see the enormous glow-y portal, but the characters certainly could.

[Cirrylius]

Simple. They were meta gaming and paid the price.

In fact if my players actually said they expected the CR system to save them (they very much wouldn't they understand the point of the game but if) I'd kill em all for the audacity.

To be fair, there are situations where relying on the the DM to use the CR mechanic as a safe ceiling is totally appropriate. New players often have no idea what to expect out of an encounter. An unfamiliar or accidentally misleading high-CR creature can put a party into a losing situation before they realize that they weren't supposed to be able to take it in the first place, and can't flee 'cause of how heavily the rules tax running away.

In this scenario, though, unless the players had reasonable expectation that something on the battlefield would eventually change, they had no business sticking around for more than a few minutes if there was a clearly labeled "plot point exit" portal a stone's throw away.

...wait. Were they dealing out merry hell to the fiends in general, or laying into the Big Bad?

[KillianHawkeye]

Kinda sounds to me like you expected the players to remember about this portal, and they didn't, and you failed to remind them.

Listen, players don't always remember everything about the game world. They're more focused on their own characters than anything else. And sometimes they get distracted by giant armies and magical treasure and stuff. If there is something that their characters should know about, but it looks like the players aren't considering that or don't even seem aware of it, then it's your duty as the DM to remind them.

[LadyLexi]

I would have ignored the portal. I like to ignore anything that sounds too obvious. But... what was to be gained from starting in a place where escape through a magical portal was the only option? Just start the story at the escape through the portal...

That is the confusing part to me. Be prepared for things to go away from the plan, have more than one path. Don't end up with plots that can only be solved by performing x,y and z and then become exasperated when the players plan out to go with plan W. It may not be planned for, but it can still be a good story.

Failure of a character does not mean the player didn't get it. I play a selfish sorceress, she doesn't rescue the helpless caravan leader because she doesn't want to waste the effort to protect something she won't benefit from. Even if it is where the plot is going, and will lead to more story.

Infinite enemies are perfectly fair, just as long as there is a point to it.

[Flickerdart]

That is the confusing part to me. Be prepared for things to go away from the plan, have more than one path. Don't end up with plots that can only be solved by performing x,y and z and then become exasperated when the players plan out to go with plan W. It may not be planned for, but it can still be a good story.
Except the players didn't go with a plan. They sat down and waited for the DM to spoon-feed them plot.

[Za'hynie Laya]

It appears the PC's forgot or were not queued about their "golden ticket" out-a-there. This mod was not tailored to their CR but was a "status quo" encounter. Page 48 in the DMG, under Tailored Or Status Quo heading gives you the straight-talk about this type of campaign.
In a nutshell: Always inform the players of what they are really up against. (Basically, if they were warned, then it was fair.):belkar:

[Flickerdart]

I think the description of infinite demons in every direction pretty much removes all doubt that the players would have been aware of what they are up against.

[Sylthia]

If the portal was still within 100 or so feet and clearly visible to the party, I would have referenced it somewhat when describing the battle. Maybe something like "As the demon falls to the ground lifeless, you notice an odd flash of light flickering from the portal to your north." Or something like that. Not every party takes diligent notes about everything in the campaign, even though it should be obvious to the character.

I also try not to leave only one solution. There are definite foolish choices. (Long story short: Never make off-color comments to a goddess.) I do try to reward planning in my group, even if it's not the "correct" solution that I had in mind. A good DM should be tough, but fair.