[PF] CR of a Gestalt Character from 3.5

[Crustypeanut]

'Ey guys, quick and simple question for ye:

I want to make my BBEG of a campaign I'm working on a Gestalt Character - something unique, as Gestalt characters don't normally exist in this world (Golarion) and he is to represent an age long gone.

What would the CR modification be of a Gestalt Char? Specifically, a Level 20 Class #1 /Class #2?

Normally his CR would be 19 from being Level 20 - add 1 from PC level wealth and stats, perhaps another 1 for being an Advanced of his race (He's been doing experiments on himself) - so currently I have him being a CR 21. Now if I make him a Gestalt, would that be maybe a +1 or 2 CR, or would it be too much of an increase for 7 level 20 characters who started out with 25 point builds and are using Hero Points? (I plan specifically on having 7 PCs for this campaign)

[Darius Kane]

Considering that classes are of varying power (six tiers of power, to be specific), gestalted classes are of even more varying power. Thus it totally depends.

[Crustypeanut]

Well I wouldn't go Wizard or Cleric - even sorcerer and oracle is unlikely.

Honestly I'm thinking something along the lines of Bard, Fighter, or even Rogue.

That, or I might just simply stick with a basic Alchemist - with what I have planned, he's already going to be scary enough.

[Andreaz]

Barring exceptional synergies, all gestalting does is giving you more durability and shoring up weaknesses. Gestalts typically have a step higher bab and hit die, as well as more than one good save (sometimes all three).
Casters change the most with it, as you're adding capacities they'd need to cover with spells. They're far sturdier and can use feats otherwise considered wasteful, hit far more often and can afford to take a hit.
Noncasters specialize more quickly and start to broaden their expertise fields, or add mundane utility (skillmonkeys!).

Of all combinations the one that probably least gains from gestalting is Skillmonkey²
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tl;dr: CR will increase based on how many defenses the target gained through gestalting, plus crazy synergies (factotum+intCaster, for example).
Gestalt is about variety and high, broad competencies.

[Clistenes]

Out of curiosity: Would you allow a gestalt character to multiclass taking levels of a non-gestalted class?

For example, a Paladin-Fighter Gestalt taking a single level of Cleric and then start taking levels as Fist of Raziel, or a Monk-Fighter Gestalt taking a single Cleric level and then taking levels as Sacred Fist...

I personally see as too much powergaming/munchkiny, but what do you think about that?.

[Andreaz]

Multiclassing as a whole is fine. Just avoid taking things that coalesce the two sides so you can "take a third".

[CTrees]

CR does not always equate well to how challenging an encounter will be. For instance, is your PF party going to have an easier time fighting a human Druid1 with a bear animal companion, or two level one kobold warriors? Especially when you start playing with class levels, templates, and action economy, this becomes problematic. Adding gestalt? Even worse. For a simple example (since you indicated single-classing both sides), compare an Fighter20//Monk20 to an Antipaladin20//Synthesist Summoner20. There's no simple formula for actual difficulty. What I'd suggest is to plan the character, and then see how powerful he really seems. Then, adjust accordingly.

[Crustypeanut]

CR does not always equate well to how challenging an encounter will be. For instance, is your PF party going to have an easier time fighting a human Druid1 with a bear animal companion, or two level one kobold warriors? Especially when you start playing with class levels, templates, and action economy, this becomes problematic. Adding gestalt? Even worse. For a simple example (since you indicated single-classing both sides), compare an Fighter20//Monk20 to an Antipaladin20//Synthesist Summoner20. There's no simple formula for actual difficulty. What I'd suggest is to plan the character, and then see how powerful he really seems. Then, adjust accordingly.

Depends. Are those two kobolds hold up in a well fortified cave with traps and lots of alchemical weapons? Is the Druid packing any special equipment, in a terrain where he can take great advantage over the party?

I don't know what the party will be made up of except that there will be 7 Dwarven PCs, made knowing that they will spend an entire year in an isolated valley, exploring the valley so that they can find a spot to build a mining outpost.

And that makes sense.. I don't want to add a class to the Alchemist that'll make him too strong - like levels in Wizard, Witch, or any other primary spellcaster. In fact, I'm already going to be doing something out of the normal - his special Simulacrums, who are Alchemists with various Archtypes, will grant him their Archetype's abilities when they are killed. (Think.. Naruto's Shadow Clones.. except that they are full Level 10 people in their own rights)

So that means, after the PCs eventually kill his X number of simulacrums, he'll be an Alchemist with Archetypes that aren't normally usable together that stack for all of the best purposes - he'll have a Sneak Attack like a Vivisectionist, Bombs like a normal Alchemist, any Discoveries he didn't have that his Simulacrums did have (These are non-standard Simulacrums so they're not lower-level duplicates exactly), Special abilities like the Grenadier's Shaped charge, Alchemical Weapon, etc. Basically he'll be sort of Gestalting with other Alchemist archetypes.

Thats probably what I'll just stick with, as honestly I can't think of any particularly good class I want to gestalt him with that makes sense with his idea anyways.

I'll probably increase his CR by 1-2 in that case. Theres still only so many actions he can do, even if he has a wide range of abilities.

Anyhoo thanks for the info guys.. I'm not used to working with Gestalt Characters, they're a neat idea though.