When do Player Character Dragons gain feats?

[drax75]

I know Dragons gain 1 feat every 4 hit dice.

But if that dragon is also a player character does he gain them every 3 instead of every 4?

or does he gain 1 feat ever 4 dragon Hit Dice, and 1 feat for every 3 PC Class hit dice?

I ask because i am trying to make a NPC Shadow Dragon Sorcerer (emissary from Argonnessen) for my Eberron campaign.

But i am trying to figure out if i use a Wyrmling Dragon and then give him sorcerer levels when do i give him feats?

[ddude987]

{scrubbed}

[Karnith]

I know Dragons gain 1 feat every 4 hit dice.
Actually, no, they don't. All creatures, PCs included, gain a feat at their first hit die, plus one at their third hit dice, and more feats at every third HD after that (6, 9, 12, etc.). There is no need to house-rule anything to accomplish what you want to do. Just be sure to keep track of the creature's total HD (racial HD plus class levels) for these purposes.

EDIT: Unless, of course, there's some silly rules about true dragons that stipulate otherwise. I am not aware of any such rule, but I would be very interested to know if one exists.

[ddude987]

Actually, no, they don't. All creatures, PCs included, gain a feat at their first hit die, plus one at their third hit dice, and more feats at every third HD after that (6, 9, 12, etc.). There is no need to house-rule anything to accomplish what you want to do. Just be sure to keep track of the creature's total HD (racial HD plus class levels) for these purposes.

EDIT: Unless, of course, there's some silly rules about true dragons that stipulate otherwise. I am not aware of any such rule, but I would be very interested to know if one exists.

Are the feats gained from dragon racial hit dice treated as racial feats? Or that's something completely different...

Edit: Also I just quickly re-read through the Draconomicon on PC's as dragons. It doesn't say dragons gain feats at a different than normal progression. Every time their total hit dice is a multiple of 3 they gain a feat like a normal character.

[Karnith]

Are the feats gained from dragon racial hit dice treated as racial feats? Or that's something completely different...
Nope, they're not. Feats gained from racial HD are just like feats gained from class levels. Some races, however, have racial bonus feats. Humans, for example, get one free racial bonus feat of their choosing at first level, while elves gain a number of weapon proficiency feats for free. Racial bonus feats will generally be clearly marked as bonus feats (with a super-scripted B next to them) in a monster's stat block. Wolves, for example, get Track as a racial bonus feat.

[ddude987]

Nope, they're not. Feats gained from racial HD are just like feats gained from class levels. Some races, however, have racial bonus feats. Humans, for example, get one free racial bonus feat of their choosing at first level, while elves gain a number of weapon proficiency feats for free. Racial bonus feats will generally be clearly marked as bonus feats (with a super-scripted B next to them) in a monster's stat block. Wolves, for example, get Track as a racial bonus feat.

Thanks. Also I read through the draconomicon, see above post. You were correct about when dragons gain feats.

[Rhynn]

The 1 feat per 4 HD was a 3.0 thing, wasn't it? That got done away with in 3.5 - everyone and everything gets 1 fear per 3 HD.

From the SRD:

All types have a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice.
* As long as a creature has an Intelligence of at least 1, it gains a minimum of 1 skill point per Hit Die.
** Creatures with an Intelligence score of “—” gain no skill points or feats.

[drax75]

Actually, no, they don't. All creatures, PCs included, gain a feat at their first hit die, plus one at their third hit dice, and more feats at every third HD after that (6, 9, 12, etc.). There is no need to house-rule anything to accomplish what you want to do. Just be sure to keep track of the creature's total HD (racial HD plus class levels) for these purposes.

EDIT: Unless, of course, there's some silly rules about true dragons that stipulate otherwise. I am not aware of any such rule, but I would be very interested to know if one exists.

I could have sworn i read that it was 4 but now i cant find it.... I sure feel silly.

So this would mean that not matter what racial Hit Die/Class it would still be a feat every 3 HD correct?

[Fyermind]

In 3.0 different types gained feats at different rates. 3.5 nixed that. Everything gains 1 feat at first level and an extra feat at third level and every three levels there after now.

[tyckspoon]

Are the feats gained from dragon racial hit dice treated as racial feats? Or that's something completely different...

That's different. A racial bonus feat is something a monster has inherently as part of being whatever kind of creature it is. The feats gained from HD are open choices and work exactly the same way as those gained from leveling do for standard PC advancement (they are in fact the same feats- a class level is a means of advancing with a particular kind of hit dice, so for example a 6 HD Dragon/3rd level Sorcerer would have 9 total Hit Dice and 4 feats- 1 at first level, one at 3rd, one at 6th, and the last at 9th, just like a normal Sorcerer 9 would.)

[drax75]

Thanks everyone so another question and then i swear i will stop asking silly questions, how about spell casting?

For example once the NPC hits Juvenile or 13HD he adds spell casting, how do i stack that with my current sorcerer progression?

[Karnith]

Thanks everyone so another question and then i swear i will stop asking silly questions, how about spell casting?

For example once the NPC hits Juvenile or 13HD he adds spell casting, how do i stack that with my current sorcerer progression?
They stack, so you just add the spellcasting levels together. For example, a young brass dragon (sorcerer level 1 from his racial spellcasting) with 5 levels of sorcerer casts spells as a 6th-level sorcerer.

EDIT: Or, in your example, your juvenile shadow dragon will cast spells as though he were a sorcerer one level higher than his class levels would indicate (because he has racial spellcasting equivalent to a first-level sorcerer). So a juvenile shadow dragon sorcerer 1, for example, would cast spells as a second-level sorcerer.

[JBento]

Are the feats gained from dragon racial hit dice treated as racial feats? Or that's something completely different...

Edit: Also I just quickly re-read through the Draconomicon on PC's as dragons. It doesn't say dragons gain feats at a different than normal progression. Every time their total hit dice is a multiple of 3 they gain a feat like a normal character.

I don't know what you mean by "racial feats." If you mean "racial bonus feats," as in, feats they can take without meeting the prerequisites, then no. If you mean feats exclusive to the race (such as a feat tagged [Dragon]), then not necessarily. They can take any feat they qualify for, just like a normal character.

I think many problems arise with WotC's decision of saying that character's get a feat every 3rd level, instead of what actually happens, which is every third HD, but oh well... :smallsigh:

[Deadline]

Thanks everyone so another question and then i swear i will stop asking silly questions, how about spell casting?

For example once the NPC hits Juvenile or 13HD he adds spell casting, how do i stack that with my current sorcerer progression?

You should take note that the Age categories are based on Racial HD, not Class HD. So a Wyrmling Red Dragon (7 RHD) with 6 levels of Sorcerer has a total of 13 HD, but is not considered to be a Young Red Dragon (13 RHD).

[Urpriest]

I think many problems arise with WotC's decision of saying that character's get a feat every 3rd level, instead of what actually happens, which is every third HD, but oh well... :smallsigh:

It's a function of WotC writing the rules with PHB raced-single-classed characters in mind, while the deeper structure of the rules makes HD a more fundamental concept (as I try to illustrate in my Monster Handbook).

[drax75]

It's a function of WotC writing the rules with PHB raced-single-classed characters in mind, while the deeper structure of the rules makes HD a more fundamental concept (as I try to illustrate in my Monster Handbook).

BTW i love your monster handbook, i typically hate playing base races (purely from a flavor perspective.)

Again thank you all so very much for your help with this. I appreciate all your time.

I think i have enough to build that NPC now, i am also going to try a experiment in my game and remove the level adjustment from the dragon and just go with the racial Hit dice, and class hit dice. I am curious how powerful the character will become over the course of the game.

So i will likely use Wyrmling with 4 levels of Sorcerer would be a total of 8 HD. Yes i know still Wyrmling because of racial HD.

I am doing this because i am curious if i can use it as a example to a friend of mine who plays who is also a DM. I am trying to convince him to let me play a dragon. So i do have some ulterior motives.

But again thanks everyone for your input, i am in your debt (bows)

[Urpriest]

BTW i love your monster handbook, i typically hate playing base races (purely from a flavor perspective.)

Again thank you all so very much for your help with this. I appreciate all your time.

I think i have enough to build that NPC now, i am also going to try a experiment in my game and remove the level adjustment from the dragon and just go with the racial Hit dice, and class hit dice. I am curious how powerful the character will become over the course of the game.

So i will likely use Wyrmling with 4 levels of Sorcerer would be a total of 8 HD. Yes i know still Wyrmling because of racial HD.

I am doing this because i am curious if i can use it as a example to a friend of mine who plays who is also a DM. I am trying to convince him to let me play a dragon. So i do have some ulterior motives.

But again thanks everyone for your input, i am in your debt (bows)

Remember, if he's an NPC, level adjustment is irrelevant, and CR will likely give you a lower number than RHD anyway.

If you read my Monster Handbook and still thought Dragons gained feats at every 4th HD, then some of my wording isn't clear enough...part of the point of that handbook was to emphasize that HD work the same for everybody.

[drax75]

Remember, if he's an NPC, level adjustment is irrelevant, and CR will likely give you a lower number than RHD anyway.

If you read my Monster Handbook and still thought Dragons gained feats at every 4th HD, then some of my wording isn't clear enough...part of the point of that handbook was to emphasize that HD work the same for everybody.

No i read it, but i thought i read in the 3.5 MM that it was 1 to 4. I read your manual i think like 1 or 2 weeks ago for the first time and my memory is bad enough as it is haha. I knew i should have gone to it first....