metamagic feats worth it?

[Drackstin]

so im planing on playing in a game thats ether all 3.5 or PF and i can use 3.5 in it.

what i wanted to make was a fleshwraper, and i do have a few feats open.

i would be taking artificer and a dip to get heal in each, but im only taking artificer to 5, is metamagic feats worth it, or should i stick with crafting feats.

what metamagic feats would be useful if i took them?

[Yora]

I am rather fond of Extend spell. Doubling the spells duration can be quite handy, especially for the spells of your second-highest level, where using a higher level slot could be a lot more affordable than two slots of the normal level.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Really open-ended question, so I'm going to leave a handbook link that might give you a starting point: Metamagic and You: A Thesis (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0)

Long story short, some metamagic feats are really good. Especially for a Artificer. Which metamagic feats are really good for your character depends on what you expect to be doing with your spells.

[Drackstin]

i see some good use for some metamagic, but since i am leaving artificer before his abilities to give his metamagic to items i dont know if taking it will be worth it, i plan on taking all the grafting feats, and some other crafting feats, like maybe craft construct, ring, wand, and passably the 25% reduction in crafting time or money.

well i plan on being a kind of mad scientist, so i am thinking a lot of debuffs and spells that cause problems, like paralyze, stun, things like that.

will metamagic benefit me?

[Evard]

Well although it isn't the most optimized but... !lso no clue what a fleshwraper is...

Purify Spell for when you want to screw up the enemy but not your party (err if you guys are good fighting evil or neutral). Couple with Spell Focus (Good) and your +1 metamagic gains a +2 DC (regular spell focus is +1 but good is moar!)

Chain Spell Fell Weaken Magic Missiles are fun.

Or

Chain Spell Baleful Polymorph

But depending on your level and spells then Extend and Persist are awesome metamagics.

Silent and Still are lack luster ... until they become fantastic :p

[Drackstin]

a fleshwraper is a PrC that focuses on grafting, he replaces parts of himself with parts of monsters, and gains benefits from there type, he can also alter his party and familiar.

as a quirk, he is going to brew potions and give them to the group without telling them what they are, just saying "take this, it will make you a sexual tyrannosaurs like me" he has very high CHA

[Grasharm]

knowing 3.5 vs pathfinder is going to be a big difference since you are looking at different numbers of feats. PF gives you a feat every other level vs 3.5s every three levels. Also skills are handled differently so you may want to make sure he is discounting three ranks on entry costs. Also there is the whole trait system in PF that could get you Heal without a dip if you wanted to.

as for feats themselves I'm on the fence. For a spontaneous caster I always liked heighten spell. Though usually it's a dog of a feat and I'm not sure if it applies to artificers but at some point most spontaneous casters are going to want to use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell and this can give you some minor bonuses when you do. If your GM is a stickler for rules and you can't find where it says in your description you CAN cast lower level spells with higher level slots this takes care of the issue before it arises as well. As you are not using a higher level slot you are elevating the spell to that level. It is a subtle difference but depending on GM can make all the difference.

Extend is good. Add in easy metamagic for it and all your infusions last twice as long. except it's not easy metamagic it's the other one that does the same thing thing except you can only apply to a metamagic feat once but it can reduce the +lvl to 0... ahh well it's been a while.

Empower is good but again artificers don't usually toss out spells directly so could be less good but since you need the feat to be able to apply to any wands you make it could still be good.

Finally reach spell is good because most of your spells are touch spells so it gives options. at +2 levels it's a steep cost that I'm against paying. Again time for easy metamagic.

[Drackstin]

those are useful, but the other thing is i have never played a caster class, so i dont know what works ether. i know what i want him to do but untill i get to the game im not sure how he will act and what he will use. mostly im going to play CC i think, but im not sure.

[Urpriest]

Remembering the character, I don't think you should get Metamagic. Your casting will be behind by five levels (unless you're using Fleshwarper to advance infusions, which I don't think was the original plan?), so you won't have a lot of higher level slots to use metamagic on.

[WhatBigTeeth]

i see some good use for some metamagic, but since i am leaving artificer before his abilities to give his metamagic to items i dont know if taking it will be worth it ...
Metamagic spell trigger is available a level before Graft Flesh (well, the same level, but there's no feat slot until 8), and the Metamagic Scroll and Metamagic Item infusions are available regardless of when you prestige class out.

I'd definitely consider grabbing some sort of metamagic to use with your items - Persist if you want to self-buff, Split Ray/Empower/Twin Spell if you want to spam wand effects, and very possibly Ocular or Quicken for anyone else.

[Grasharm]

Okay, first caster and you chose artificer... and you want to do crowd control...

Okay just so you know what your getting into artificer is an excellent class but it's very indirect in the way it does things most of the time. You don't cast a spell. You craft a wand using your reserve of a spell that you want to cast and then use the wand. This means that EVERY spell could be considered on your spell list and at the same time NONE of the spells in the game are on your spell list. Your artificer infusions are aimed around buffing equipment and constructs. If you have a warforged in the group he will love you other wise it's all about giving properties to other peoples gear and using Use magic device to make the magic wands/scrolls/staves you find/make work.

This means for crowd control you need to think well ahead at what spells you want to put on scrolls/wands/staves and make those CC items so when you want to say cast web you have a wand of web ready to do so or when you need it you have the blade barrier scroll ready.

If you want my two cents pound for pound sorcerer is just as good. Also chr, based. Just trade away your familiar for Blood of Siberys(DR351 p79) or better metamagic from phb2.

[Drackstin]

Metamagic spell trigger is available a level before Graft Flesh (well, the same level, but there's no feat slot until 8), and the Metamagic Scroll and Metamagic Item infusions are available regardless of when you prestige class out.

I'd definitely consider grabbing some sort of metamagic to use with your items - Persist if you want to self-buff, Split Ray/Empower/Twin Spell if you want to spam wand effects, and very possibly Ocular or Quicken for anyone else.

if im playing 3.5 i have to jank my way into fleshgrafter, useing my crafting bonus feat for graft flesh (if my DM allows) but i want it at lvl 8.

if its a PF game i am going witch 2/artificer 5/fleashgrafter x, and i will be using the +spell lvls for both artificer and witch, if i can do they. and i dont think i would need metamagic but ill have real spells


Okay, first caster and you chose artificer... and you want to do crowd control...

Okay just so you know what your getting into artificer is an excellent class but it's very indirect in the way it does things most of the time. You don't cast a spell. You craft a wand using your reserve of a spell that you want to cast and then use the wand. This means that EVERY spell could be considered on your spell list and at the same time NONE of the spells in the game are on your spell list. Your artificer infusions are aimed around buffing equipment and constructs. If you have a warforged in the group he will love you other wise it's all about giving properties to other peoples gear and using Use magic device to make the magic wands/scrolls/staves you find/make work.

This means for crowd control you need to think well ahead at what spells you want to put on scrolls/wands/staves and make those CC items so when you want to say cast web you have a wand of web ready to do so or when you need it you have the blade barrier scroll ready.

If you want my two cents pound for pound sorcerer is just as good. Also chr, based. Just trade away your familiar for Blood of Siberys(DR351 p79) or better metamagic from phb2.

the main reason im using artificer is to craft, and i know how they work, and to get into fleshgrafter i need a familiar, so that destroys the build all together.

to the point again, would taking metamagic feats help me at all or should i just keep to all crafting. im not taking artificer high enough to get the ability to add metamagic to items i make so i don't know if its worth it

[Urpriest]

if im playing 3.5 i have to jank my way into fleshgrafter, useing my crafting bonus feat for graft flesh (if my DM allows) but i want it at lvl 8.

if its a PF game i am going witch 2/artificer 5/fleashgrafter x, and i will be using the +spell lvls for both artificer and witch, if i can do they. and i dont think i would need metamagic but ill have real spells


So, splitting them between? That seems really really wasteful. Remember, spells are balanced with a particular level in mind...spells many levels lower than what the game expects you to be able to cast are comparatively worthless.

I didn't get a chance to ask you this in the previous thread, but what exactly is the Artificer for? Yes it gives you a bunch of bonus feats...but Pathfinder gives you lots and lots of feats. It's crafting mechanic is redundant, since in Pathfinder you can already ignore prerequisites with a skill check. So you're left with infusions that you aren't keeping supported, a craft reserve that will do something ambiguous depending on DM rulings, and trapfinding. I guess retain essence could be fun, except that it also is dependent on how your DM rules this whole thing works.

[Drackstin]

So, splitting them between? That seems really really wasteful. Remember, spells are balanced with a particular level in mind...spells many levels lower than what the game expects you to be able to cast are comparatively worthless.

I didn't get a chance to ask you this in the previous thread, but what exactly is the Artificer for? Yes it gives you a bunch of bonus feats...but Pathfinder gives you lots and lots of feats. It's crafting mechanic is redundant, since in Pathfinder you can already ignore prerequisites with a skill check. So you're left with infusions that you aren't keeping supported, a craft reserve that will do something ambiguous depending on DM rulings, and trapfinding. I guess retain essence could be fun, except that it also is dependent on how your DM rules this whole thing works.

i was thinking of leveling both spell levels at once not splinting them up if thats how it works, i never played a caster before and it says +1 spell level to per existing caster levels. as for why, it was kinda just for fluff but i like the idea of being able to make anything i need or the party needs, and you can never have enough feats, i could go witch 7/ fleshwraper x but i would be using alot of feats just to craft. since 5 of my feats will be "Graft something"

since the game is being put together now, i dont know who the M is or what he will let me do. but im hoping i can add the reserves together and make them count for gp.

hope that helps, if not ask more

[Urpriest]

]i was thinking of leveling both spell levels at once not splinting them up if thats how it works[/B], i never played a caster before and it says +1 spell level to per existing caster levels. as for why, it was kinda just for fluff but i like the idea of being able to make anything i need or the party needs, and you can never have enough feats, i could go witch 7/ fleshwraper x but i would be using alot of feats just to craft. since 5 of my feats will be "Graft something"

since the game is being put together now, i dont know who the M is or what he will let me do. but im hoping i can add the reserves together and make them count for gp.

hope that helps, if not ask more

The table says +1 spell level. The prestige class itself says what that means: if you have more than one spellcasting class, you choose which one that level goes to. You don't get both.

Making the reserves count for gp...could potentially be useful. But you'd also want to be able to use Retain Essence on grafts, which you technically can't do since they're not magic items, being nonmagical after they're made. That said, that's something to ask your DM about.

If you can't use Retain Essence, or if it looks like you'll have enough money not to worry about it, I'd definitely skip the Artificer levels. You don't need every single crafting feat out there, or even every grafting feat (since the new-style grafts don't play nice together anyway). Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, maybe Craft Construct or Craft Rod later...you should have room for other stuff.

[Drackstin]

The table says +1 spell level. The prestige class itself says what that means: if you have more than one spellcasting class, you choose which one that level goes to. You don't get both.

Making the reserves count for gp...could potentially be useful. But you'd also want to be able to use Retain Essence on grafts, which you technically can't do since they're not magic items, being nonmagical after they're made. That said, that's something to ask your DM about.

If you can't use Retain Essence, or if it looks like you'll have enough money not to worry about it, I'd definitely skip the Artificer levels. You don't need every single crafting feat out there, or even every grafting feat (since the new-style grafts don't play nice together anyway). Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, maybe Craft Construct or Craft Rod later...you should have room for other stuff.

A lot of this depends on the DM, and i could get the feats myself. at level 7 i would have 5 feats, 1 from human, 4 from level progression. Using the 7th level feat for graft flesh i have 4 to play around with. i could get all the feats artificer gives me, and still stay witch.

i have only played 3.5 so i dont know whats going to happen