I think my DM may be giving us a bonus by mistake.

[killem2]

I'm pretty honest when it comes to R.A.W and I think this is a case where I want to speak up, even if it causes some moans at the table, because I am also a DM in my own session with these players and I don't want them to be confused either.

I could be wrong, but that's why I want clarification.


In this session we were all allowed to start at ECL 2. (except one person came in the next session and started as ecl 3).

Anyway, after I helped two others the La +1 race, and the La +2 race.

Well, after some level ups, my dm advises me I might be figuring up these two players stuff wrong.

He is treating the chart in the players handbook that says Character Level, the chart that dictates max skill rank, feat accquisition, and ability scores is including the Level Adjustment.

He said and I quote "What I do is, look at the character level, give those bonuses, subtract the level adjustment from that number to determine where the class level is".

It caught me off gaurd and didn't have any books readily available when he brought it to my attention, but it just doesn't seem to fit with what I THOUGHT I knew.


He's a good guy, he's not going to lash out for me telling him he's wrong, but I do like to be thourough and provide sources.


I am of the understanding that there is Effective Character Level and Character Level. Two different things in d&d and use for different things.


I also thought that a LA +2 level 1 character, starts off as though it was a level 3 character for determining where it starts off with experience.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You are correct. Everything is based off of actual HD/class levels. All LA does is move where you are on the experience/wealth tables.

From the srd:


To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Skills, for example:


Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

Notice skills only say character level while the LA as a special concept, ECL, which only applies in its listed areas.

[Greenish]

Skill ranks and feats only care about your HD.

[pbdr]

Skills, ability bumps, feats etc. are based on hit dice, not on effective character level. You calculate these by based on HD then add any LA to get your ECL.

[Yora]

Skills, Feats, and ability increases are based on HD and HD only. Not class levels, character level, or ECL. Just plain and simple number of HD.

[Douglas]

ECL is used for A) amount of XP gained from challenges and needed to level up, B) amount of equipment you are "supposed" to have, and C) level of party you should be adventuring in. Absolutely everything else uses unadjusted Character Level.

[Yora]

I would stick to saying Hit Dice. Character level tends to get a bit wussy with the PHB using the term synonymous with "the number of class levels in all classes". But racial HD are also included and are never reffered to as levels. HD is clear an unambigious.

But just for clarification: What about racial levels where the character gets HD not at every level? Those still count only HD and not levels for purpose of Skills, Feats, and Ability increases, right?

[ZamielVanWeber]

If you ate talking about monster classes, those follow the normal rules. HD governs skills, feats, and everything else.

[killem2]

Replies from my DM after sending replies of this forum. (he's at work cannot access GITP)

The chart says ECL and the description of ECL on that same page is class level and level adjustments. This shows how hard it is for a PC to level up… It does not say character level. From what I read on the wizards of the coast forms we are doing it right – but they do not go into the max skill points and feats, but refer to the chart in the players handbook.

and

Ok

That last part says it, maximum rank in a class skill is your character level +3 (it does not say class level +3).

I have seen in the books these two terms
Class level – which is your physical classes, be it one class or more then one.
Character Level – which is your class level, Monster HD and Level adjustments.

[Douglas]

I have seen in the books these two terms
Class level – which is your physical classes, be it one class or more then one.
Character Level – which is your class level, Monster HD and Level adjustments.
This is incorrect. The proper definition of terms is as follows:
Class level - the number of levels you have in the single class currently being discussed. Usually used only in the descriptions of class abilities.
Character level - total number of levels you have, including all classes and racial hit dice. Does not include level adjustment. Is exactly equivalent to hit dice, provided you don't have any temporary effects playing around with that like a Bard's Inspire Greatness.
Effective Character Level - character level plus level adjustment. This is the one and only measure that includes level adjustment, and the word "effective" must be present for this term to be the one that is meant.

Edit: rules reference that might be useful here:
A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#levelAdjustmentandEffectiveCha racterLevel)

[killem2]

Another question from my DM and some source:

How do you go about leveling up a character that has a level adjustment of +1, when it comes to feats? Meaning, if a character his level 2 but has an ECL of 3, does he get his level 3 feat or does he have to wait till his levels equal 3?

The Mechanics Of Level Adjustments

This is where I actually address the question that prompted this article in the first place – so heads up, Enquiring GM!

Level Adjustments are defined very poorly in the DMG (page 173). Instead, it dives straight into how to use them, and even then, it isn’t terribly clear. Hence, the question arises in the first place! Wizards Of The Coast do a little better (but only a little better) in their D&D 3.5 Glossary. The easiest way to handle level adjustments without confusion is to treat the level adjustment plus the number of hit dice as levels in “monster”, i.e. treat the character as multiclassing without penalty. For example, A Bugbear (3HD) has a level adjustement of +1, so a 1st-level Bugbear Cleric has levels “Bugbear 3+1 / Cleric 1″ and is a fifth-level character. Note that I indicate the level adjustment seperately after the “+” sign for clarity.

For his three hit dice, plus 1 level adjustment, the character gets everything listed in the monster manual entry under “Bugbear”, plus the ability to take class levels. The first character level that he takes – “Cleric 1″ in my example – shifts all his numbers on table 3-2 of the PHB, “Experience and Level-dependant Benefits” from 4th to 5th level – meaning that he has a maximum of 8 ranks in his class skills, 4 ranks in his cross-class skills, gets no feats or ability increases, and needs another 5,000 XP to progress to Cleric level 2.
When the character does so, he will become a 6th level character, and will gain an additional feat.

http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/level-adjustments-under-the-microscope/

[Steward]

Douglas,

So the way I'm understanding it now is that both the printed level adjustment and the monster's ordinary set of racial hit dice are basically filling up the slots of "class levels"? As in, if your game was starting at level 1, and you wanted to play a Bugbear Cleric level 1, you would basically have to earn four levels (the three hit dice and the 1 level adjustment) before you can start taking actual classes (like cleric)?

And this character would be treated as a 5th level character (with only 1 class level + 4 of the other things)?

[kardar233]

As Douglas said, Level Adjustment is only relevant when giving out XP rewards, balancing party ECL and determining WBL. Things like feats, skill caps and ability score increases are based on your Hit Die. For example, a first-level Bugbear Cleric has 3 HD of Humanoid and 1 level of Cleric (so four Hit Dice total), and therefore gets two feats (one for first HD and one for third HD) and one ability score increase (at fourth HD) and supposedly would be balanced in a party of 5th-level characters.

[Douglas]

Douglas,

So the way I'm understanding it now is that both the printed level adjustment and the monster's ordinary set of racial hit dice are basically filling up the slots of "class levels"? As in, if your game was starting at level 1, and you wanted to play a Bugbear Cleric level 1, you would basically have to earn four levels (the three hit dice and the 1 level adjustment) before you can start taking actual classes (like cleric)?

And this character would be treated as a 5th level character (with only 1 class level + 4 of the other things)?
I take it you are the DM in question?

A bugbear with no class levels or advancement at all has:
Class level 0 (for all classes)
Character Level 3
Effective Character Level 4

He has maximum skill ranks of 6 for bugbear racial class skills and 3 for everything else. He has 2 feats, gained for the 1st and 3rd hit dice. He does not yet have any level-based ability score increases. Even if his race did have 4 or more racial hit dice, level-based ability score increases for racial hit dice are folded into the racial ability score modifiers, so you never get those until you start advancing the creature. He gets to generate his ability scores by whatever method your PCs use instead of being stuck with all 10s and 11s. He has experience and recommended Wealth By Level as if he were level 4, but that's the only thing that takes level adjustment into account.

Add 1 cleric level:
Class Level 1 (cleric)
Character Level 4
Effective Character Level 5
He gains all cleric class features for cleric level 1. His spellcasting, Turn Undead, and domains all operate at level 1.
He gets 2+int skill points (not quadrupled - that happened for one of his bugbear hit dice, and you only get that once) which he can spend with cleric class skill restrictions. His class skill cap is now 7, while cross-class is 3.5.
He gains one hit die, increasing his hp by d8+con. His fortitude and will saves increase by 2.
He increases one ability score of his choice by 1, as per reaching character level 4.
He does not gain a feat (unless one of his domains grants one), as 4 is neither 1 nor a multiple of 3.
He has experience and recommended Wealth By Level as a 5th level character. For everything else, he is 4th level (and only one of those levels is Cleric).

If you played this character in a level 4 party, you should not have the cleric level yet - an ECL 4 bugbear has only his racial stuff, gear, and ability scores, though you are free to select different skills and feats than in the standard Monster Manual block. You would not get the cleric level until the party leveled up to 5.

Playing a bugbear in a party below level 4 is not recommended and will likely require some special adjustments to prevent the bugbear from being substantially more powerful than everyone else until they get enough experience to catch up. Savage Species introduced the concept of a "Monster class", spreading the hit dice, level adjustment, ability score modifiers, and racial abilities over a number of levels equal to the base creature's ECL, allowing you to play a weakened bugbear at level 1 and grow to the race's full power through advancing levels, but unfortunately did not make one for bugbears.

[Karnith]

I think that dropping off a link to Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928) might be useful at this juncture.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To simplify things:

The only thing Level Adjustment affects is how much XP you need to get your next level.

Thus, a character with 3 HD and +1 LA needs experience to hit level 4, but is in all other mechanical ways a 3rd level character.

This additional xp requirement is done as a balancing factor, because races/templates with a Level Adjustment are generally more powerful.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Exp calculations in general. ECL 5 CL 4 is considered level 5 for exp to level and when calculating party exp. They are 4 for everything else.

[killem2]

I take it you are the DM in question?



I don't think it is.

So, our Petal Psion, (ecl 3), level 1 psion, 2 la, needs to still obtain the exp as anyone else would for level 2, but the la just keeps her from ever reaching level 20 (buy off is another subject)

[Jeraa]

I don't think it is.

So, our Petal Psion, (ecl 3), level 1 psion, 2 la, needs to still obtain the exp as anyone else would for level 2, but the la just keeps her from ever reaching level 20 (buy off is another subject)

A level 1 psion character with a level adjustment of +2 is, for the purposes of experience points only, a level 3 character. He has the experience total of a level 3 character (a minimum of 3,000xp), and needs to reach the experience points of a 4th level character (6,000xp total) to level up.

For all other purposes (including skill points, hit points, feats, ability score increases, and class abilities) he is only a level 1 psion.

Level adjustment is a penalty - it delays your skill increases, feats, ability score increases, and class abilities. In exchange, you get to be a member of a more power race then normal.

[DarkSonic1337]

I don't think it is.

So, our Petal Psion, (ecl 3), level 1 psion, 2 la, needs to still obtain the exp as anyone else would for level 2, but the la just keeps her from ever reaching level 20 (buy off is another subject)

Actually, she'd need to obtain exp as a level 3 character, not a level 2 character. So she'd level up when she reached the needed experience for a character without LA to reach level 4.

[killem2]

Would this be accurate for an LA +2 adjusted race?

http://imageshack.us/a/img46/144/99699808.png

[Douglas]

Would this be accurate for an LA +2 adjusted race?

http://imageshack.us/a/img46/144/99699808.png
Yes. And remember that racial hit dice count as part of level for both charts, as if you were multiclassing with racial hit dice as one of your classes.

[killem2]

I am about to pull my hair out guys.


I have tried everything to prove this to my friend. His understanding of Level Adjustment comes from two faults.

1. The Prime source, this blog he reads, doesn't distingish the difference between effective character level and character level.

2. Then there is this.

ME :smallbiggrin:
PG. 172 of the DMG: Use ECL instead of character level when referring to Table 3?2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits in the Player’s Handbook to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL with Table 5?1: Character Wealth by Level to determine starting wealth for a monster character.



HIM :smallcool:
This is what caused most of the confusion, it states to use the ECL and use the table 3-2 “Experience and level dependent benefits” in the PHB to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. This does not state to ignore the benefits or this is just for the exp needed.

I have tried everything I can think of. I have quoted savage speices, monster manual, dmg, phb, I have showed him that savage progression doesn't mean anything here.

I showed him examples of where he is faulty because if CHARACTER level truly = LA + HD + CLASS levels, then where are all the missing feats, skill point ranks, ability score bonuses.

Now here is the next part of the article that I need to show mistakes in:
The easiest way to handle level adjustments without confusion is to treat the level adjustment plus the number of hit dice as levels in “monster”, ie treat the character as multiclassing without penalty. For example, A Bugbear (3HD) has a level adjustement of +1, so a 1st-level Bugbear Cleric has levels “Bugbear 3+1 / Cleric 1″ and is a fifth-level character. Note that I indicate the level adjustment seperately after the “+” sign for clarity.

I can debunk this in one easy example.

If it was true that level adjustments are actually added to character levels, then if you look Frost giant, why does it only have 5 feats listed, when actually it should have seven, because its character level would be boosted to 18, and thus by this article grant the frost giant two more feats over its current five, because it is 14HD creature and a +4 level adjustment.
Going further with this example, why don’t the giants skill points equal the total that would come from being a level 18 character. You can never choose to withhold spending of skill points, you MUST spend them each level, and where it has a jump bonus of +17, it should be +21, which is 18 + 3 = max skill rank, if you are allowing level adjustment to be added to character level as this article states you should.

To which I got back:

I do not have the info to look at here – I do know that there are a lot of creatures that have issues where the points don’t add up.

Now, I have blasted him with tons of info, so maybe he will realize over the weekend.

But are there ANY other things I can do? What do you do about someone who is just assuming rules?

[Jeraa]

From the 3.5 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a):


A player of mine wants to create a minotaur character. The average party level is 15. He says he can just make a 1stlevel barbarian/14th-level fighter minotaur and be equal to the other player characters. I say he can have only a 7th level character (say 1 barbarian level and 6 fighter levels) because of the minotaur’s ECL of 8 (8 minotaur + 1 barbarian + 6 fighter = 15th level). Who’s right?

You’re on the right track. You’ve figured out the right number of class levels the character can have, but a minotaur has 6 racial Hit Dice and a +2 level adjustment. Your example minotaur character does have an ECL of 15 (6 HD, 7 class levels, and a +2 level adjustment), but it is a 13th-level character with skill points, base saves, feats, and ability score increases as a 13th-level character. The minotaur character starts with 15th-level equipment, however, and earns experience as a 15th-level character.

Level adjustment never gives you skill points, feats, ability increases, or anything else. LA only counts for experience and character wealth.

And from the Monster Manual (pages 290-291 in the book):


Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Hit Dice
The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases
A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

It very specifically says the number of feats a monster gets is based on its hit dice, not its ECL (which is equal to class levels + racial hit dice + LA). If feats are based only on hit dice, then so are skills and ability increases.

[only1doug]

I have tried everything I can think of. I have quoted savage speices, monster manual, dmg, phb, I have showed him that savage progression doesn't mean anything here.

But are there ANY other things I can do? What do you do about someone who is just assuming rules?

At a certain point you need to shrug and walk away from the discussion before you lose a friendship over game rules.

Tell your group (other GM) and I disagree on how ECL and LA adjust works, so in his games it will be applied differently from in my games.

[killem2]

At a certain point you need to shrug and walk away from the discussion before you lose a friendship over game rules.

Tell your group (other GM) and I disagree on how ECL and LA adjust works, so in his games it will be applied differently from in my games.

That is probably what I am going to have to do.

My main issue is, we have a group of people, that we both dm, and I forsee us playing for a while, and if we have people who are calculating character one way in one session, I do not want to have to defend the actual rules in this same way everytime some one wants to make a character.

I think I will at least state the problems he and I are having at the d&d session over coming together on these rules.

[KillianHawkeye]

Just tell him that the info in the actual books trumps the crap he reads on some blog! :smallsigh:

[TuggyNE]

Just tell him that the info in the actual books trumps the crap he reads on some blog! :smallsigh:

Basically, this. It's simple primary source logic. :smalltongue: