The Spinjitzu Halfling: Can It Be Done?

[Palanan]

I have a player who's got enough XP for sixth level, but he's having a hard time deciding what to take. Right now his character is a dashing, silver-tongued ladies' man, with a TWF build on a feat-rogue chassis and sprinkled with a dash of bard.

He'd like the character to be a deadly master of blades, and I had this great image of the halfling whirling and leaping across a ship's deck crowded with enemies, bounding at targets and making spinning tumble checks in midair. We were thinking warblade, possibly on the bard-blade path; but the particular approach he'd been hoping for doesn't look like it'll work out, and now I have a despondent player.

So. Is there some other way his halfling can be a spinning disc of glittering steel?



The Fine Print: I allow most 3.5 sources, but no psionics or MoI, and random one-level dips make me grumpy. The campaign is set in the Forgotten Realms, although I'll allow Eberron feats if they can be adapted, and I'm generally okay with Dragon material. This offer void where prohibited by RAW.

[Flickerdart]

Snowflake Wardance would synergize well with his Bard side, but I would recommend some levels in Barbarian. Pounce and Whirling Frenzy help immensely with the "ball of swords" concept, and the Barbarian's easy access to Intimidate-based abilities props up his presumably high Charisma score.

[Palanan]

You know, this is the first time I've actually looked closely at Snowflake Wardance. Mechanically it's perfect for the character, who does have a decent charisma...but wow, the silliness of the feat description.

Is there something similar that keys off a different kind of Perform skill? My player can correct me if he feels otherwise, but I have a hard time seeing his character sinking 6 skill points into dance. (Likewise the levels in barbarian won't work well here, although they don't seem essential to the feat itself.)

He has 18 Dex and 14 Cha, so anything that synergizes those two can only help. I like the effect of Snowflake Wardance, just not sure if the player will spring for the dance requirement.

[Kazyan]

If you're okay with minor homebrew, go ahead and change it for him. What does he have Perform ranks in?

Regarding the Barbarian, you could switch Rage with Ferocity. It's a favorite variant of mine--instead of +4 Str and Con, get +4 Str and Dex without that pesky AC nerf. It's available online and in Cityscape.

[Palanan]

Well, he has ranks in Perform (voice), and I'm wondering if he couldn't do a halfling war-chant or something to achieve the same effect.

I certainly don't mind making the change, since Perform (dance), of all things, is just silly.

[Keltaris]

Snowflake Wardance[Frostburn] sounds like it would fit the character, but it only works when fighting with one weapon and one free hand, IIRC.

I also remember seeing a great tumbling dread pirate build on the forums, but I can't seem to find it at the moment...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Keltaris
...but it only works when fighting with one weapon and one free hand, IIRC.

The text from the feat says you can add your Cha bonus "to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand." I read this as excluding two-handed weapons, but not two separate one-handed weapons.

However, his main weapon is a rapier, so that might not work too well.

:smallfrown:

[Laserlight]

I'm the player.

Snowflake wardance: as for the silliness, I proposed the Halfling War Kazoo. I am a 42" tall ladies' man who is attracted to kinky elves. I have no problems with silliness.

But Wardance means using 100% of my one use of Bardic Music per day, to give myself a +2 on attack rolls, +0 on damage, for a whopping 36 seconds, after which I'm fatigued for 10 minutes.
I could instead use that Music to give me and everyone around me, including the ubercharger, +1 hit / +1 damage, for as long as I can sing, with no ill effects when I stop. And not burn a feat to do it.

[Flickerdart]

In that case, barbarian will probably work better for you.

[Darrin]

There's some halfling monk substitution levels in Races of the Wild that add Skirmish damage to unarmed strikes. Maybe add Travel Devotion/Swift Hunter?

[Laserlight]

In that case, barbarian will probably work better for you.

D12 hit die and +10 ft movement are good. I'm almost tempted to take it just for the +10 movement.

But as for Rage...well...it's not quite as useless as Snowflake, but it's still a once-a-day, lasts-a-few-seconds ability. That doesn't make him a "deadly master of blades", that makes him "a regular schmoe who can sometimes make a last ditch effort when desperate". Not to mention, you can't use DEX/INT/CHA based skills while raging.

D&D character design is like trying to get a printer, and realizing that it takes five points in Skill: Marine Biology, plus Feat: Speaks with Molluscs, plus plugging a live squid into your computer, after which you can use it as an inkjet for one page a day.

[Callin]

Why not just take a level of Warblade.

d12 HD +1 BaB +2 Fort +1 Ref (as long as you are not flat footed and you have an Int of at least 12) 4+int mod skill points
3 Maneuvers Known and Readied and 1 Stance at an initiator level of 1+half your other levels. So that means you are not limited to only knowing first level Maneuvers as long as you meet the other prereqs for them And Weapon Aptitude which can allow you to change up your feats that pertain to weapons aka Weapon Focus or Spec. and the like.

The maneuvers can be used once per combat but can be gotten back by using a Swift action followed by an Attack or by using a standard action to do nothing else in the round. So you can technically never run out of them, you just gotta take 1 round to regain them.

[Laserlight]

Why not just take a level of Warblade.

I take it you didn't read the original post?

[Callin]

ya know i read that thing 5 times and didnt see that... went back and read it a few more times LINE BY LINE and still glossed over the fact that yall already coverd that lol.

Well back to the thinking board.

[Laserlight]

ya know i read that thing 5 times and didnt see that... went back and read it a few more times LINE BY LINE and still glossed over the fact that yall already coverd that lol.

Well back to the thinking board.

I've had days like that. :smile:

I may end up with Warblade for lack of anything better. Punishing Stance and Rabid Wolf so I can do some actual damage, instead of just nicking the monsters.
Wall of Blades for a good parry.
For mobility...Sudden Leap would be fun--I could move and still full-attack, which won't terrify anyone above second level but would at least fit the character concept--except that it doesn't actually give me any movement beyond a 5ft step unless I roll a 16 or better. Which gets me 10ft. Awe-inspiring, I know.
No magic items available to boost that, and at the rate we're gaining levels, it'll be about a year and a half before I get the Tiger Claw stance to boost my Jump. I may do it anyway, but the thought of having one of my three maneuvers be useless for a year....

[Palanan]

Since no one else has brought it up, I'll mention Knowledge Devotion, which gives a bonus to attack and damage rolls, all day long. It applies to every attack you make, and the character already has enough ranks in Knowledge (local) that a few more skill points should get him a +2 or +3 more often than not.

With TWF those will add up, more quickly than otherwise, and should work well with warbladery.

[Laserlight]

Since no one else has brought it up, I'll mention Knowledge Devotion, which gives a bonus to attack and damage rolls, all day long. It applies to every attack you make, and the character already has enough ranks in Knowledge (local) that a few more skill points should get him a +2 or +3 more often than not.

With TWF those will add up, more quickly than otherwise, and should work well with warbladery.


My DM advised me that Extra Music would probably be more valuable than Knowledge Devotion. Although if you can persuade my DM to hand out two feats to a deserving halfling, I'll gladly take them both.

[Nightgaun7]

He's Feat Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/ Bardic Sage Bard 1
STR 12
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 14

Feats:
TWF, Combat Reflexes, Deft opportunist, Weapon finesse, Daredevil acrobat

Other abilities:
Trapfinding
Grace (+1 to reflex save)
Insightful strike (+INT mod to damage)

Now first off, he doesn't actually get all that much use out of Swashbuckler, cause he's suffering a bit from MAD. And he wanted lots of skill points at lvl 1, so he went Feat Rogue, which is of limited usefulness, although the free feat is nice. And in addition, Kestrel is trying to do some TWF, which chews up feats and has its own issues. Also he doesn't want to go with White Raven so that limits things a bit on the traditional Bard buffing front. He should have just been a Warblade with high Charisma and Skill Focus (Seduction).

He has no draconic ancestry, so DFI is out. Words of Creation is out cause he's CN. Snowflake Wardance, as mentioned, uses up more Bardic Song than he'd like and only nets +2 from the CHA of 14.

Badge of Valor and/or Vest of Legends would help, so would the Inspirational Boost spell. Which he won't get until he takes a second level in bard. Also Crystal Echoblade.
Song of the Heart feat would be another +1, but I'm not sure what he has in mind for his 6th level.
Song of the White Raven won't be helpful for a while.
Slippers of Battle Dancing are a bit out of our budget at present.
Strongarm Bracers would let him use bigger weapons.

I mentioned a dip into Cleric of Tymora, Travel devotion and Luck domain to him. Charm domain would also be good, +4 Cha.
Swordsage and Setting Sun might have some useful stuff. Maybe, since we're at sea, swap one of the other disciplines for Stone Dragon?
He won't be able to get into Sublime Chord any time soon. Bards make decent Swiftblades, but he'd have to be a way higher level bard. Plus I already called dibs. Same deal with Lyric Thaumaturge. Fochlucan Lyrist is not only a ways off, but a giant pain in the butt to get into.

Honorable Dread Pirate might be possible, but it requires some skills I don't think Kestrel has, Quick Draw, and ownership of a seaworthy ship worth at least 10,000G. Skills are easy enough, but the feat and ship might take a bit longer.
Heartfire Fanner has slightly rough prereq fets but is pretty good, since you take Dragon stuff.
Seeker of the Song
War Chanter is good and only ould require weapon focus, iirc. Lets you put up two songs at once. Stack with Seeker of the Song for added greatness.
Warrior Skald is relatively easy to get into normally, but Kestrel has sort of built himself out of it at this point.

I haven't checked all of these out for 100% compatibility, but it's something. Poor Kestrel just doesn't have a very good build, I'm afraid, at least not in terms of being powerful. He should have gone Bard 4/Warblade X, at the bare minimum.

Of course, if he did, then Kanak would be much less impressive : P

[Flickerdart]

My DM advised me that Extra Music would probably be more valuable than Knowledge Devotion.
KD gives you a minimum of +1/+1 on everything all day, and stacks with IC.
Extra Music lets you give +1/+1 two times per day, and doesn't stack with IC because it's just more IC.

Have you considered retraining to regular Rogue and going Daring Outlaw?

[Laserlight]

He should have just been a Warblade with high Charisma and Skill Focus (Seduction). ....Poor Kestrel just doesn't have a very good build, I'm afraid, at least not in terms of being powerful. He should have gone Bard 4/Warblade X, at the bare minimum.

And taken a halfling-sized greatsword instead of rapier and dagger.

[Laserlight]

Extra Music lets you give +1/+1 two times per day, and doesn't stack with IC because it's just more IC.

Not sure what you're thinkig of; Extra Music gives you four extra uses of Bardic Music per day. Which in my case can mean IC or Healing Hymn.


Have you considered retraining to regular Rogue and going Daring Outlaw?

We looked at Daring Outlaw but Kestrel is a bravo, not a sneak attacker.

Also, retraining is not allowed.

[Nightgaun7]

Incidentally, how much magic does Kestrel want?

[Rukia]

Considering that a skillful swordsman, whether fencer or not, requires excellent footwork I don't think perform dance is that wonky. It actually sort of make sense if you think about it. You don't have to fluff it out in character that you're "dancing", but a swordsman's footwork could be considered a sort of dance as it would require a similar skillset. There is a ton of fluff that doesn't have to be taken literally and the perform requirements is more of a skill tax for that feat.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Laserlight
My DM advised me that Extra Music would probably be more valuable than Knowledge Devotion.

And since then my player has expressed his lack of enthusiasm for Extra Music, thus the renewed mention of Knowledge Devotion.


Originally Posted by Nightgaun7
Honorable Dread Pirate might be possible, but it requires some skills I don't think Kestrel has, Quick Draw, and ownership of a seaworthy ship worth at least 10,000G.

Actually, I discussed this option with a prospective player a while back and agreed to waive Quick Draw, or at least substitute another feat as a requirement. I'd be willing to allow Deft Opportunist or Combat Reflexes to qualify for Dread Pirate.

[Laserlight]

Considering that a skillful swordsman, whether fencer or not, requires excellent footwork I don't think perform dance is that wonky. It actually sort of make sense if you think about it. You don't have to fluff it out in character that you're "dancing", but a swordsman's footwork could be considered a sort of dance as it would require a similar skillset. There is a ton of fluff that doesn't have to be taken literally and the perform requirements is more of a skill tax for that feat.

Having been a sabreur back in the day, I can tell you that fencing footwork isn't the same as dance. Despite that, Kestrel would be a dancer if I had the skill points (or Versatile Performer feat, yet another Thing That Would Be Cool But You Can't Afford It)--chicks like guys who can dance--and I could go along with the fluff. But Snowflake Wardance isn't worth the feat.

[Flickerdart]

Not sure what you're thinkig of; Extra Music gives you four extra uses of Bardic Music per day. Which in my case can mean IC or Healing Hymn.
Ah yes, I was thinking of Extra Rage (which gives +2 uses). My point still stands - Knowledge Devotion actually makes you better, while Extra Music just lets you be more of the same. It costs an action to pop, too. Does your party really need that bonus?

[Nightgaun7]

Does your party really need that bonus?

Need all the help we can get!

[Pickford]

I have a player who's got enough XP for sixth level, but he's having a hard time deciding what to take. Right now his character is a dashing, silver-tongued ladies' man, with a TWF build on a feat-rogue chassis and sprinkled with a dash of bard.

He'd like the character to be a deadly master of blades, and I had this great image of the halfling whirling and leaping across a ship's deck crowded with enemies, bounding at targets and making spinning tumble checks in midair. We were thinking warblade, possibly on the bard-blade path; but the particular approach he'd been hoping for doesn't look like it'll work out, and now I have a despondent player.

So. Is there some other way his halfling can be a spinning disc of glittering steel?

The Fine Print: I allow most 3.5 sources, but no psionics or MoI, and random one-level dips make me grumpy. The campaign is set in the Forgotten Realms, although I'll allow Eberron feats if they can be adapted, and I'm generally okay with Dragon material. This offer void where prohibited by RAW.

The Dervish from Complete Warrior is pretty much what you're describing.

[RFLS]

The Dervish from Complete Warrior is pretty much what you're describing.

Bad prestige class is bad. Bad prereqs are bad. Most importantly, the player has emphasized that he wants nothing to do with Perform (Dance).

[Nightgaun7]

The Dervish from Complete Warrior is pretty much what you're describing.

One downside to the Dervish is the precision damage, and we've fought a lot of enemies with precision immunity, I think. It can be overcome with items, but loot is thin on the ground in our campaign so far.

It also only works with slashing weapons, and requires dodge, mobility, and weapon focus (any slashing weapon).

[Laserlight]

the player has emphasized that he wants nothing to do with Perform (Dance).

I said: "Kestrel would be a dancer if I had the skill points (or Versatile Performer feat)". I just don't want to spend the points and a feat to get something which is, overall, worse than what I already have.

[zeboss]

If you're so dedicated to two weapon fighting you could dip into ranger for the TWF bonus feat tree, but then again you've already spent a feat on TWF, so unless you could convince your DM to let you pick a new one, your second level bonus feat would be useless.

[Pickford]

One downside to the Dervish is the precision damage, and we've fought a lot of enemies with precision immunity, I think. It can be overcome with items, but loot is thin on the ground in our campaign so far.

It also only works with slashing weapons, and requires dodge, mobility, and weapon focus (any slashing weapon).

Well, this may be true, the Dervish also gets Spring Attack for free, can take 10 on tumble checks (something Palanan envisioned the character doing) and by 10th level is capable of doing 10 attacks in a round (a thousand cuts doubles the number of attacks, allows twf (with scimitars as light weapons instead of one-handed), and stacks with haste (though not the stat bonuses)) at +5 attack and +5 damage.

The only drawback for the character, as stated he is a rogue/bard, so he's wearing light armor anyway, is the emphasis on slashing weapons (and extra bonuses directed at scimitars). This could easily be house-ruled for piercing weapons to apply directly to the rapier so the player need not be despondent.

The other, base class alternative for being a swashbuckler is not surprisingly, the swashbuckler.

[Laserlight]

Also he doesn't want to go with White Raven so that limits things a bit on the traditional Bard buffing front.

Doesn't make a difference until I have a combined 8 levels of Bard + Blade, as I recall. Which will be so far in the future that it's not worth worrying about.


Snowflake Wardance, as mentioned, uses up more Bardic Song than he'd like and only nets +2 from the CHA of 14.

Not to mention "is less effective than buffing my friends", "only lasts a few rounds when our combats usually go quite a bit longer" and "leaves me fatigued". Oh, and "costs a feat."


Song of the Heart feat would be another +1, but I'm not sure what he has in mind for his 6th level.

It requires Inspire Competence, which means I need another level or two in Bard.


Strongarm Bracers would let him use bigger weapons.

We have no choice on what magic items we get.


I mentioned a dip into Cleric of Tymora, Travel devotion and Luck domain to him. Charm domain would also be good, +4 Cha.

Noted.


Swordsage and Setting Sun might have some useful stuff. Maybe, since we're at sea, swap one of the other disciplines for Stone Dragon?

The DM has explicitly said no crusaders or swordsages, and refused to allow swapping out their schools into warblade.


Honorable Dread Pirate might be possible, but it requires some skills I don't think Kestrel has, Quick Draw, and ownership of a seaworthy ship worth at least 10,000G. Skills are easy enough, but the feat and ship might take a bit longer.

And is totally the wrong direction for this character. No Sneak Attack dice to stack, and not trying to lead a pirate crew.

[Sith_Happens]

I'd reconsider Warblade, honestly. Sudden Leap and other such moving-around maneuvers + Mithral Tornado/Adamantine Hurricane is basically exactly the concept in the OP.

On an unrelated note, when I read the thread title the first thing I thought of was this:

http://gamingtp.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/spinzakukick03.jpg

[Laserlight]

I'd reconsider Warblade, honestly. Sudden Leap and other such moving-around maneuvers + Mithral Tornado/Adamantine Hurricane is basically exactly the concept in the OP.

Sudden Leap + 4 more skill points means I'd have 10 skill, -6 for base move less than 30ft, so a net +4.
Without a running start, we have DC 10 for me to move 5ft--which is pretty pointless, I could take a 5 foot step anyway--or DC20 for a 10ft jump, which means I need to roll a 16 or better for there to be any point to this.

With a running start....I might as well Charge, right?

Yes, I know there's a TigerClaw stance that will give me +10 to Jump. I need to get at least 4 more levels to get a second stance; that's right around two years of player time. I ain't seeing it.

And yes, Mithril Tornado would fit that concept. It's a WB4 maneuver, which means I need several more levels to take it--again, so far off in the future as to be de facto unattainable.

[Sith_Happens]

Sudden Leap + 4 more skill points means I'd have 10 skill, -6 for base move less than 30ft, so a net +4.
Without a running start, we have DC 10 for me to move 5ft--which is pretty pointless, I could take a 5 foot step anyway--or DC20 for a 10ft jump, which means I need to roll a 16 or better for there to be any point to this.

With a running start....I might as well Charge, right?

Yes, I know there's a TigerClaw stance that will give me +10 to Jump. I need to get at least 4 more levels to get a second stance; that's right around two years of player time. I ain't seeing it.

There's also the Leap of the Heavens feat in PHBII, which negates the DC increase for a standing jump and gives a +4 competence bonus to running jumps.


And yes, Mithril Tornado would fit that concept. It's a WB4 maneuver, which means I need several more levels to take it--again, so far off in the future as to be de facto unattainable.

If by "several" you mean "two," since your five non-Warblade levels give you 2 IL already. Warblade 1 gives you Steel Wind in the meantime, which is the first maneuver of the chain with MT/AH that I didn't mention before because I couldn't remember its name at the time.

Also, what kind of campaign are you playing that you only gain two levels per IRL year?:smallconfused:

[ZeroNumerous]

Unfortunately: With a Feat Rogue 1/Swash 3/Bard 1 build you're not gonna become an expert swordsman. There could have been something to work with if you had went normal Rogue 1/Swash 4 with Daring Outlaw, but as is: There's something nothing to work with.

Any way to turn you into an expert swordsman will have to come literally in the next level, and cannot build on what you already have. The only way to do that is Warblade. That's it.

My suggestion? Allow the player to retrain his bard level(or rogue + swashbuckler levels) to a swashbuckler level(or straight bard levels). Finally, allow the player to trade his feat for sneak attack. Because It's substantially more useful. With standard Rogue 1/Swash 4, you can take Swashbuckler one more level, pick up Daring Outlaw, and buy an item of Steel Wind(spinning to hit more than one guy).

This method would allow the player to become what he wants to be(a master swordsman who can spin around for no reason) and still do what he was doing before(being a roguish type).

[Laserlight]

There's also the Leap of the Heavens feat in PHBII, which negates the DC increase for a standing jump and gives a +4 competence bonus to running jumps.

I've thought about that. I'd still like Extra Music, but I might go for Leap instead.


If by "several" you mean "two," since your five non-Warblade levels give you 2 IL already.

I was thinking it might be advisable to take Iron Heart Surge as my first WB3, since I have a +2 Will Save.


Also, what kind of campaign are you playing that you only gain two levels per IRL year?:smallconfused:

I gather that's unusually slow, which is why I point it out. Partly it's that we're averaging less than one session per two weeks. Partly...for most of the year, I was the only PC in the campaign, and TWF damage of d4+3 and d3+2 does not make for high powered, high xp opponents.

[Laserlight]

My suggestion? Allow the player to retrain his bard level(or rogue + swashbuckler levels) to a swashbuckler level(or straight bard levels). Finally, allow the player to trade his feat for sneak attack. Because It's substantially more useful.

Kestrel is not a sneak attack kind of guy; and for most of the campaign, he's been the only melee type (and, mostly, the only PC at all) in the party. No flanking opportunities.

If I were starting from scratch, I'd probably go Bard 2 / Blade 3, pick significantly different feats, and use a 2H sword instead of a rapier.

Well, no. If I were starting from scratch, I'd say "3.5? Oh hell no. Thanks, but I'll wait for a Champions campaign."

[Sith_Happens]

Well, no. If I were starting from scratch, I'd say "3.5? Oh hell no. Thanks, but I'll wait for a Champions campaign."

In before people recommending M&M.