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kyoten
2013-03-26, 04:22 PM
Was thinking of running a F/S N themed game. Any suggestions on how to implement this idea with a party of players?

13_CBS
2013-03-26, 07:49 PM
Is there a particular system you're looking for? D&D 3.5/Pathfinder? 4e? Another system entirely?

zabbarot
2013-03-26, 08:31 PM
I ran a game like this on a forum once. I'm really not sure how to implement it as a table top though. On the forum I was able to set permissions so players could keep most their actions secret. We did teams of 2 with one player as the mage and the other as the Servant. One team managed to keep the servants identity secret until the very last scene, where he revealed that he was Blackbeard (as Rider) and summoned the Queen Anne's Revenge to destroy half the city : / It was pretty brilliant.

Is there a tabletop system that is designed to let players keep their actions secret from each other?

kyoten
2013-03-26, 10:15 PM
Using pathfinder rules.

13_CBS
2013-03-27, 07:14 PM
Alright, so it's going to be Pathfinder.

I suspect that the bulk of the crunch work is figuring out how to represent Masters and Servants, and how (or even if!) you want to represent the craaazy tricks Servants can do. I have a couple of ideas for this...

WARNING! POTENTIAL FATE/STAY NIGHT AND FATE/ZERO SPOILERS AHEAD!

(Note: I'm only going to be referencing things I remember from Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero here. I've yet to read/play the other spinoff stuff, like Fate/Extra or whatever.)


Representing Masters and Servants

Two ideas for representing Masters and Servants; the first is the Summoner class from Pathfinder's Advanced Players Guide. If you're not familiar with the class, you can read it up in its respective book, and/or check out Saph's excellent guide here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592). (Long story short; you're a sorcerer with fewer spells known, fewer spells per day, the ability to summon monsters without expending spell slots, and its signature ability: summon a customizable monster called an Eidolon. The fact that Saph uses Fate/Stay Night images in his Handbook was what gave me this idea in the first place...) This fits because most Masters are supposed to be Mages of some sort, but not particularly powerful mages—especially when compared to the hardcore sorcery-users of yore. You might have to do a bit of adjusting, however—in particular, you may need to ban the Summoner's Summon Monster spell-like-ability...though this will depend on how closely you want your game to follow Nasuverse rules (which I'll get to later).

Another option is to simply have each player control two characters at the same time; a Master and a Servant. To emphasize the difference in power between Masters and Servants, you could, for example, have Masters be low-level NPC classes (so only Warriors, Experts, and Adepts), while Servants are all high-level PC classes or even Gestalts. (Does Pathfinder have Gestalt? I'm afraid that I'm far more familiar with D&D 3.5.) Every time a Master gains a level—if Masters will level at all—their Servant goes up a level as well, to continue keeping the power gap between Masters and Servants.

Representing Fate/Stay Night

Another aspect you may need to think about is how much you want your game to represent some of the stuff that happens in Fate/Stay Night. Is it just going to be 7 Summoners duking it out for a big prize? Or do you want your game to have all the nitty-gritty Nasuverse details that show up in Fate/Stay Night, with things like Command Spells, Servant-unique mechanics (the ability to go ethereal, Servants needing a constant supply of Prana, abilities unique to each Servant Class, etc.), the corrupt Holy Grail, etc.? Or something in between? Will there be a referee party like the Church? Is your version of the Holy Grail War going to be kept secret from muggles, or will it be right out in the open? The more things in Fate/Stay Night you want to represent in your game, the more homebrew you'll probably have to do—stuff like Unlimited Blade Works is only really doable with high level spells that your Masters might not have access to, so if you want a player to use stuff like Reality Marbles you'll have to do some homebrewing. You might have to do even more homebrewing (or do a lot of splatbook digging) if your Servants are based off of real-world historical or mythological figures, since a lot of their Noble Phantasms might not exist in Pathfinder (or even D&D 3.5).

Other stuff

I should also point out that, as a game, the Holy Grail War is...kind of unbalanced, as far as I know. For example, Sabers tend to be the most powerful Servant classes, since Servants who qualify to become Sabers must have high stats (Nasuverse stats, not Pathfinder stats) in just about everything; Strength, Agility, Endurance, and at a bit of Mana. Indeed; if I remember my Nasuverse lore correctly, some of the last Servants to stand in all the known Holy Grail Wars were Sabers. So, you may need to balance Saber Servants against the other Servants. There may be other things you need to balance as well—if you decide to have Caster Servants use high-level Pathfinder Arcane/Divine spells, you may need to nerf those as well. And so on and so forth.

Servants

I'm not sure how familiar your group is with Fate/Stay Night and in particular the details of the Holy Grail War, so here are some things to keep in mind when creating Servant characters for each Servant Class:

Saber: Compared to other Servants, Sabers are supposed to be very strong and very fast. Lancers might be a bit faster, Archers might have some better Noble Phantasms, Casters might be better at magic, Assassins might be sneakier, and Berserkers on Mad Enhancement might be stronger, but the Saber class is supposed to have no weaknesses. As with the other Knight classes, Sabers have innate Magic Resistance. Saber Class attributes are: strong stats, Magic Resistance, and Riding.

Archer: Archers have relatively lower stats; they're not as strong as Sabers, and certainly slower than Lancers. They're supposed to make up for it with the large variety of Noble Phantasms they have, plus their unique Class ability—Independent Action, which allows them a degree of freedom and independence other Classes don't have (Archers can last for a relatively long time without a source of prana, for example). Archers are a Knight class, so they, like Lancers and Sabers, have some Magic Resistance. Archer Class attributes are: lots of Noble Phantasms (especially projectile ones), Magic Resistance, Independent Action.

Lancer: Lancers don't have as much Strength as Sabers, and they don't have the equipment flexibility of Archers, but they're fast and they can take a lickin' yet keep on tickin'. Lancers are also a Knight class, so they get Magic Resistance too. Lancer Class attributes are: highest Agility stat, Magic Resistance, Battle Continuation.

Rider: Like Archers, Riders rely on powerful Noble Phantasms to carry them through, and like Archers, their stats are mediocre (though Riders' stats tend to skew more towards Agility, while Archers are more blaanced). They're not as fast as Lancers, but their Noble Phantasms are supposed to be more powerful. Rider Noble Phantasms tend to take the form of some kind of vehicle, and as their Class name suggests they are the best at Riding things. Rider Class attributes are: powerful Noble Phantasms, Riding. (One of my sources claims that Riders also have Magic Resistance, but I'm not sure about this.)

Berserker: As far as I know, the only strict requirement for the Berserker class is that the Heroic Spirit that becomes a Berserker must have gone violently insane at one point in their life. As a result, the “base” stats for Berserkers tend to be rather low—your average Berserker is supposed to be slower and less able to take hits than your average Archer. Berserkers are supposed to compensate for this with their Mad Enhancement Class ability, which makes them stronger and faster (though at a cost of being harder to control, harder to maintain, and losing access to certain Noble Phantasms). Berserker Class attributes are: Mad Enhancement.

Caster: As you'd expect from the Squishy Wizard Class, Casters are physically the weakest but the best at magic. They are kind of gimped by the fact that at least 3 of the other Classes have Magic Resistance, so you may wish to compensate for this somewhat in your game. Casters as a Class have Territory Creation (altering a part of the world so that it somehow gives them an advantage in magic) and Item Creation. Caster Class attributes are: high Mana, Item Creation, Territory Creation.

Assassin: Assassin stats are pretty weaksauce—they're as fast and strong as Riders (so not very) but they usually don't have nearly as powerful a Noble Phantasm, and Riders are better than them in magic, as well. The Knight classes certainly outstrip them in physical stats, too—really, the only class the Assassin could take in a fist fight is a Caster, but then, so can a martial-arts trained normal human. Assassins do make up for it with their class ability, Presence Concealment, and being able to operate somewhat independently of a Master, much like Archers. Assassin Class attributes are: a degree of Independent Action, Presence Concealment.

-----

So, yeah. This ought to give you a head start on your Fate/Stay Night game. Again, depending on how Fate/Stay Night-y you want your game to be, you might have to do some homebrewing for things like Command Spells and Nasuverse-specific magics.

kyoten
2013-03-27, 09:16 PM
Thanks for the swift reply CB! This gives me an idea to start with.

In response to some of your questions:

I would include command seals
It would be known to those in power
Noble phantasms would be implemented somehow.

The-Mage-King
2013-03-27, 10:02 PM
For NP, may I suggest custom Items of Legacy, imported from 3.5? One, minimum, per Servant should work.

You also might consider the PF Mythic rules, currently in playtest (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8voq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Mythic-Adventures-Playtest). Hijack one or two abilities that seem appropriate for a non-gear character, and proceed.

Bear in mind their caster stuff is broken in comparison to the melee stuff.


Command seals, I got nothing.

Replicate a spell of X level, targeting only the Servant, maybe?

An order to "Come to me!" would replicate a Greater Teleport, while "Die." would be something else?

kyoten
2013-03-27, 10:25 PM
Got a reference for Legacy items?

The-Mage-King
2013-03-27, 10:28 PM
Weapons of Legacy, a 3.5 book.


Generally, they aren't worth it.


Ignoring the penalties, and using the framework, though....

zabbarot
2013-03-28, 05:27 AM
It might be a good idea to use the homebrew for converting vancian casting to psychic mechanics. That way you can represent mages giving servants prana with power points.

The Troubadour
2013-03-28, 08:28 AM
Are you REALLY tied to PF as the system? It would be a lot easier to model any of the Fates using a super-heroes system.


I should also point out that, as a game, the Holy Grail War is...kind of unbalanced, as far as I know.

Oh, it's entirely unbalanced. Several Servants "cheat" the class system somehow (Hercules in F/SN is the strongest of all the official Servants - despite being slotted in the worst possible class for him - simply by virtue of the strength of his legend, the Berserker from F/Z has several abilities that explicitly work even while under his Mad Enhancement, etc.), the Caster from F/SN cheats the entire Holy Grail system, and Gilgamesh is basically the greatest cheater of all (one wonders how much stronger he would have been had he been called as a Saber).

kyoten
2013-03-28, 10:21 AM
To ^ yes I am fairly tied to using the PF rules. It is the system the group I would run this with is accustomed to.

What other systems would you suggest though? Out of curiosity.

zabbarot
2013-03-28, 11:00 AM
To be honest the servants can be so varied that I might suggest GURPS or Mutants and Masterminds. Anima would probably be perfect if you can make it through the rulebook. Point buy just makes it easier to keep them roughly balanced and still allow them to be incredibly different from each other.

With my group we came to the conclusion a while back that anytime homebrewing would come us and actually playing we'd just use GURPS >.>

The-Mage-King
2013-03-28, 12:06 PM
Oh, it's entirely unbalanced. Several Servants "cheat" the class system somehow (Hercules in F/SN is the strongest of all the official Servants - despite being slotted in the worst possible class for him - simply by virtue of the strength of his legend, the Berserker from F/Z has several abilities that explicitly work even while under his Mad Enhancement, etc.), the Caster from F/SN cheats the entire Holy Grail system, and Gilgamesh is basically the greatest cheater of all (one wonders how much stronger he would have been had he been called as a Saber).

To quote/paraphrase several folks from other forums...

"Magi are cheating jerks."
"The magic system is set up with all of these rules. The first of which is 'You can break one rule. Choose wisely.'."
"The Einzberns are cheating cheaters who cheat."
"Rin was the only magus in the 4th and 5th Grail Wars who didn't cheat, intentionally or otherwise. And even then it's questionable, because of her Servant."

Does that give you a basic idea of how cheaty the HGWs get? :smalltongue:



Also? Gil would have sucked as a Saber. His fighting style is based around spamming his Owned weapons at people, not Mastering one.

Now, if he had been called without that huge ego... :smalltongue:




With regards to other systems, Exalted seems about right for recreating Servants and their power levels. Just, a bit of a hassle to learn.

Zaydos
2013-03-28, 12:17 PM
Having played in a 3.5 game with this concept (masters were 7th level characters, servants were 20th, you got one of each).

The first thing I have to say is that in a PvP game with limited access to magic where only one character is expected to be a caster you have to worry about high level spells, things like Force Cage can completely automatically shut down most melee characters, no roll, just lose. So you might want to look over the sor/wiz spell list, but be careful because high level 3.P is not balanced around PvP. Of course the DM also waved expensive material components :smallsigh:

The second is that Exalted is probably a better system for it, but it is hard to learn. GURPS could do it, but GURPS could be made to do almost anything.

AmberVael
2013-03-28, 12:23 PM
To ^ yes I am fairly tied to using the PF rules. It is the system the group I would run this with is accustomed to.

What other systems would you suggest though? Out of curiosity.

I've played in several F/SN games (and GM'd two others, one of which is still running), and the system I am most accustomed to using for it is Mutants and Masterminds 2e. It is a really excellent system, and ultimately its mechanics are incredibly similar to 3.5 and Pathfinder, with only a few slight differences (no AoOs, HP is replaced with a toughness save, among others) to in play stuff.

The real difference between the systems is that Mutants and Masterminds uses a very modular and more open character creation system, which works quite well for modeling F/SN style characters. Or just about anything you could picture, really.

Eldariel
2013-03-28, 12:41 PM
Also? Gil would have sucked as a Saber. His fighting style is based around spamming his Owned weapons at people, not Mastering one.

Now, if he had been called without that huge ego... :smalltongue:

I'm not sure. Ea is a pretty potent thingy and definitely his sword (he might not be as good with it as Arturia is with Excalibur for instance, but being the strongest Noble Phantasm by a wide margin can certainly compensate).

Regarding the topic:
It's worth noting that all the Servants use prana to enhance their fighting capabilities (this is outright stated with Saber multiple times for instance even though she's no Magus and Noble Phantasms consume tremendous amounts) so if building them in PF, using only magic-using base classes is probably a good starting point (self-buffy builds for the Knights & Berserker, a true caster combat build for Caster, stealth caster for Assassin and whatever the hell works for each one for Rider).

Knights obviously require magic resistance (FSN Magic Resistance works more like Globe of Invulnerability than Spell Resistance; only attacks of X power level can penetrate, and even those are hindered in power), Caster needs some Crafting capability, Rider probably gets some kind of a Mount and riding capabilities as class features, Berserker just has higher physical base stats. Archer needs Independent Action but that's tied to a function that you'll have to homebrew (maintaining servants with the master's prana) and Assassin's class ability is something akin to Nondetection and/or Mind Blank.


Settings itself is not a problem; the various offshots of the Fate-franchise take place in alternate realities, simulations or whatever so you could just run an alternate reality game or even just move the whole Grail War to another location or whatever. This requires a bit of world creation either way but should be a relatively painless process.

The Troubadour
2013-03-28, 01:48 PM
To ^ yes I am fairly tied to using the PF rules. It is the system the group I would run this with is accustomed to.

What other systems would you suggest though? Out of curiosity.

Well, I always suggest "Blood of Heroes: Special Edition" (which is the current version of the old "DC Heroes" system) first, as it's my favourite super-heroes system; but to a group that's mostly familiar with D&D/PF and the D20 System, Mutants & Masterminds would also work out well, I think.


Also? Gil would have sucked as a Saber. His fighting style is based around spamming his Owned weapons at people, not Mastering one.

True, but I think that's because he was called as an Archer. The Gilgamesh from legends was a superb warrior; I'm thinking a Saber Gilgamesh would have "traded" Gate of Babylon for much higher stats (I'm thinking Hercules-level) and be a beast in melee fighting, particularly when using Ea.

Prime32
2013-03-28, 03:29 PM
The two best systems for this I know of are Mutants & Masterminds as mentioned, or some variant of FATE (Dresden Files RPG is the most accessible version of it, and has a similar Urban Fantasy setting).

FATE in particular lets you handle the number of characters and abilities that are completely invincible unless you exploit loopholes (you can even make up new weakpoints in your enemies' abilities on the spot). That bit where Assassin hits Saber with the undodgable Tsubame Gaeshi, but Saber is able to find an opening because he bent his sword earlier? Totally doable within the rules.

Both games also have systems for fighting without revealing your identity and similar self-imposed handicaps.

The Troubadour
2013-03-31, 02:17 PM
That bit where Assassin hits Saber with the undodgable Tsubame Gaeshi, but Saber is able to find an opening because he bent his sword earlier? Totally doable within the rules.

Technically, that's doable within any rules system; we just call it "rolling the dice". :-)

Prime32
2013-03-31, 06:08 PM
Technically, that's doable within any rules system; we just call it "rolling the dice". :-):smallconfused: The effect of Tsubame Gaeshi is that it automatically hits (by striking from every direction at once), without rolling any dice. You can't dodge it unless you have a power that would enable you to do so, like teleportation. These kinds of absolute abilities are a huge part of the Nasuverse.

The Troubadour
2013-03-31, 07:11 PM
These kinds of absolute abilities are a huge part of the Nasuverse.

Yes, well, "absolute" means different things in comic books and in the Nasuverse. :-) Like how adamantium simply can't be broken, until the villain of the week manages to do so.
But aside from that, what does a dice roll mean? Luck, fate, circumstances generally beyond the characters' control... Right? So imagine if I told you that an antagonist had a special attack with a +20 bonus to hit and dealt triple damage, but then either he rolled a natural "1" or the PC rolled a natural "20" on the Defense roll; how would you describe an attack that should, by all rights, have hit the target, but didn't?
Going back to the specific F/SN example: I could see Assassin's sword getting slightly bent either as a specific consequence of an action declared by Saber or as an inherent mechanic of his weapon, or I could see it as the result of Saber rolling highly enough to defend herself from his attack, despite the humongous bonuses the technique gave him. With most systems, I would go for the latter.

As an aside, even in-universe the Tsubame Gaeshi wasn't so overpowered. It was described as undodgeable, but that's because Assassin took full advantage of his geographic advantages (like the fact that Saber couldn't step outside the stairway because of the temple's innate field). Against someone even faster than her - heck, let's go whole-hog and say someone with Flash-level speed - with an open terrain, would it be so undodgeable?