Help request: Pathfinder Familiar stats

[Crusader2010]

Heya all,

I'm a bit confused at how the stats of a familiar work out, especially in the area of skills and feats. Could anyone help me? I am taking a Trush familiar. I am wondering what it's stats are like at level 1 and 3. At level 7 I am taking a Improved familiar, possibly a Lyrakien. How are it's spell-like abilities influenced?

[Crustypeanut]

Familiars use the normal stats of the base animal except where as follows:


They're Magical Beasts instead of Animals
Their HP is 1/2 (Rounded Down) of their Master's HP. Temporary increases to their master's Hp does not affect the familiar, but things like Toughness do.
The familiar's BAB is equal to the Master's.
Their Base Saves are equal to their Master's Base Saves or their own, whichever is better. All familiar's base saves are normally (Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +0). Which would mean a 1st level Wizard's Familiar would have Base saves of +2 all around. The familiar uses its own stats for increasing the saves beyond that.
The Familiar's HD is equal to it's masters for effects such as spells. It does not gain additional feats or skill points based off it's HD. The familiar has the base feat(s) and skill ranks of the base animal. Your DM may allow you to choose an alternate feat in place of it's normal feat, though.
The Familiar shares ranks in all skills the Master has, though it still uses it's own stats. For example, a 1st level Wizard with 1 rank in Spellcraft would mean that his familiar also has 1 rank in Spellcraft. The Familiar keeps it's ranks in skills it normally has, unless it's master has more ranks (I.E, Fly, Perception, etc)
As for Spell-like Abilities, it's HD would be equivilent of it's masters, not it's own. An improved familiar that normally has, say, 4 HD for the purpose of it's spell-like abilities would instead have it's master's HD if it is higher.
It also gains increased natural armor, intelligence, and certain abilities due to it being a Familiar.


If you can give me your Wizard's HP and Skill Ranks at 1st and 3rd level, I can get you a fully fleshed out set of stats for your Thrush familiar.

[Keneth]

As for Spell-like Abilities, it's HD would be equivilent of it's masters, not it's own. An improved familiar that normally has, say, 4 HD for the purpose of it's spell-like abilities would instead have it's master's HD if it is higher.

This has long been a subject of debate and even the devs aren't sure how it's supposed to work. A familiar's Hit Dice is supposed to increase only for the purposes of effects, but it retains its original Hit Dice for everything else. Whether or not its own abilities constitute what was meant as "effects" in addition to the obvious interpretation is arguable. Sean seems to agree that things like ability DCs are, in fact, affected by this clause and they went out of their way to nerf Silvanshee to prevent its lay on hands ability from advancing as the wizard levels. However no one has actually confirmed that one or the other interpretation is correct, so it should really be brought up with the GM to see what they think of this particular issue. I'm actually kinda angry that this has still not been addressed in an errata, or at the very least in the Animal Archive.

Personally, I think familiar rules are dumb on the whole. Normal familiars are so useless, they're basically a slotless item that you forget about after character creation, and improved familiars are only good for scouting (if you do that), using magic items (if they have hands), and the odd social situation (unless they're also socially inept), which may or may not again result in the familiar nesting in your backpack until someone reminds you it exists. Not that arcane casters need any more power, but the rules as written are inelegant to say the least. It looked like they were on their way to a breakthrough when they made a diabolist's imp companion progress as an animal companion, but those rules were full of holes that were never plugged, and they were never again replicated, not even for their equivalent prestige classes of the other lower planes.

[Crustypeanut]

I never forget about my familiar after creation - heck I had a guy who would sick his Greensting Scorpion at people when he was out of spells. Imagine seeing a cat-sized scorpion crawling towards you? **** scared the crap out of the goblins we were fighting -the scorpion even scored a kill once.

Most, and I do mean most, wizards/witches DO treat their familiars like Varsarvius treated Blackwing - a slotless item you only use occasionally. You don't HAVE to treat them like this, though. It peeves me greatly when people don't use their familiars, even for something as simple as giving them perception checks.

Smart wizards/witches will use their familiars (And improved familiars even moreso) for things as simple as delivering written messages to scouting allies, dropping alchemical weapons on enemies, or even delivering potions to allies who are too distant for whatever odd reason. Improved familiars are even better, especially because most of them can carry more, have special abilities, etc.


Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Personally, I would consider this counting for their spell-like abilities, but I could see how others would rule not. In my campaigns, its how I'd rule it, if theres no definite answer.

[Keneth]

I make great use of my improved familiars as well, giving them armor, stat boost items, evolutions, and whatever else can help them survive. I've even researched a custom spell, based on anthropomorphic animal, that allowed my silvanshee familiar to use wands and other magic stuff. I've never used a normal familiar though. Our party never does any scouting, and standard familiars aren't really good for much else. Unless you have a goat. You can milk a goat. :smallbiggrin:

Still, I'm playing a diabolist right now, and her imp companion is sick. Since he uses animal companion progression, he gets his own feats, skills, hp, ability bonuses, special abilities, etc. The downside is that he loses some basic abilities like damage reduction, fast healing, spell resistance, and gets fewer skill points overall due to animal progression (2+Int). But he's basically a tiny crafting machine and the overall perks of HD progression eventually outweigh all the downsides. With just a little more work, Pathfinder could have had awesome familiars. It saddens me that they chose to ignore this opportunity.

[Crustypeanut]

Thats actually a really neat PrC.. I hadn't looked at it before. Too bad it requires being evil, or I'd have my Cleric of Brigh work towards it! Though he's already getting Eldrich Heritage (Arcane) at 3rd level, and will eventually be building a Clockwork Familiar for himself.

[Crake]

Giving your familiar a holy (or unholy if it's an imp i suppose) bow, a quiver of ehlonna and a variety of bane arrows can help make them useful. That would be 1d4+3+4d6 damage if using the appropriate arrow vs an evil (or good) foe, which is nothing to sneeze at.

[Bhaakon]

You should be careful about making your familiar combat-useful. Most games operate under a sort of unwritten agreement that the familiar won't be targeted in battle, but that tends to go out the window once it's launching arrows or delivering touch attacks. So, in short, don't have your familiar participate in battle unless you've taken some significant steps to help it survive.

[Crustypeanut]

Well you also have to play smart with the familiar - if its a flier with a bow, it can afford to stay at range up in the air, or hidden in a tree.

Even then, I'm sure some DMs wont attack the familiar despite the familiar doing damage. Other DMs... they'd probably attack the familiar even if its not proving to be dangerous.

Why have a familiar if you're not going to use it? Just having it for its Alertness bonus feat and a minor bonus to your character is a complete waste of a really good class feature that rewards creative thinking on the player's part.

[Baroncognito]

Still, I'm playing a diabolist right now, and her imp companion is sick.

You know... if you make an Aasimar Diabolist, you could take the Celestial Servant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/celestial-servant-aasimar) feat and end up with a Celestial Imp.

[Ashtagon]

Well you also have to play smart with the familiar - if its a flier with a bow, it can afford to stay at range up in the air, or hidden in a tree.

Even then, I'm sure some DMs wont attack the familiar despite the familiar doing damage. Other DMs... they'd probably attack the familiar even if its not proving to be dangerous.

Why have a familiar if you're not going to use it? Just having it for its Alertness bonus feat and a minor bonus to your character is a complete waste of a really good class feature that rewards creative thinking on the player's part.

The way I GM, if the familiar launches a spell or weapon at an enemy, the familiar becomes a fair target for the duration of that encounter and any future encounter with enemies who were targeted by the familiar. A familiar who hides under his master's robes (possibly buffing his master and allies) is not a target as long as active PCs or their allied combatants remain.

A familiar caught alone on a spying mission would be an active target if the familiar arouses suspicion. A cat familiar who has some sense will present himself as a common stray cat, thus avoiding suspicion.

The above also applies to paladin mounts that are presenting themselves as non-combatant riding animals, and even apparently mundane mounts that are kitted out for war (they would be perceived as valuable goods in the right market if not obviously extraplanar). It also applies to animal companions that are not obviously dangerous animals (a wolf would always be a target; a dog could present as a domesticated pet). It also applies to hirelings who present themselves as hired bearers and animal handlers, and could even apply to a PC who presents himself as a non-combatant. For humans and other sentients, non-combatant would require that they not be seen attacking, casting attack spells, or casting defensive buffs.

[Crustypeanut]

Makes perfect sense. Its just that the DMs I play with would unlikely target your familiar - though animal companions are fair game no matter what they look like. That being said, most of my group shys away from familiars - most of them don't even play arcane casters. Only one does, beside myself, and his Octopus familiar (In a bucket) never does anything, even when we're in an aquatic environment.

[Keneth]

Giving your familiar a holy (or unholy if it's an imp i suppose) bow, a quiver of ehlonna and a variety of bane arrows can help make them useful. That would be 1d4+3+4d6 damage if using the appropriate arrow vs an evil (or good) foe, which is nothing to sneeze at.

I don't think 19 points of very conditional damage is worth the investment for a familiar. I wouldn't even give that to my imp companion.


You know... if you make an Aasimar Diabolist, you could take the Celestial Servant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/celestial-servant-aasimar) feat and end up with a Celestial Imp.

I'm baffled by the fact that good alignment is not part of the prerequisites. However, while the rules may not care, I'm afraid Asmodeus would personally call shenanigans and smite your ass into oblivion, if you tried that. It's a very good feat though, definitely worth the investment if you're an aasimar.

[Randomatic]

I'm baffled by the fact that good alignment is not part of the prerequisites. However, while the rules may not care, I'm afraid Asmodeus would personally call shenanigans and smite your ass into oblivion, if you tried that. It's a very good feat though, definitely worth the investment if you're an aasimar.

Asmodeus would probably be overjoyed that you managed to sneak one of his minions into the Celestial realms, rather than display anger... and he would probably find that hilarious.

Now the angels would probably take offense if they ever found out.

The Imp keeps it's previous alignment, so it's not likely that it's going to betray it's Infernal loyalties.

[Keneth]

Asmodeus would probably be overjoyed that you managed to sneak one of his minions into the Celestial realms, rather than display anger... and he would probably find that hilarious.

Asmodeus in Pathfinder doesn't really give a damn about the celestial realms. He is the most powerful known entity still in existence (if you don't count the Seal as a conscious entity), and is just waiting patiently for the eventual and inevitable self-destruction of the universe, at which point he'll recreate it again as he pleases. He also demands complete order and enforces it with violent bouts of wrath (which are for show, but no less effective). Celestifying your imp would likely be an insult to his gift, a sore thumb in his elegant design, and I doubt you'd be long for this world after that. Provoking the creator of the universe is not the way to success. :smallbiggrin:

[magwaaf]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/familiar


allof the pf familiars. by that i mean the 2 that give you +4 initiative

[grarrrg]

stop now...seriously...don't even bother...whole mess of crazy ahead...
Why go Full Wizard at all?
Heck, why even use a Caster?
Go Full on Cavalier!
Slap on Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage), nab the Arcane Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline).
BOOM!
A Familiar with Full Bab and 1/2 of d10HD.

And Cavaliers come with a Mount too! Get to level 4, grab the Horse Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horse-master-combat) feat and jump ship!
Now your Mount scales with you regardless of Cavalier levels!

But wait! There's MORE!

Pick a Class that comes with an Animal Companion and stack the Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) feat on the sucker! I like Falconer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/falconer) Ranger for this, as it has Full Bab and keeps close to the "non-caster" theme we got going here.

Well that about wraps thi...NOPE!

Shadowdancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/shadowdancer) for 3 levels, granted, we lose a Bab and our Falcon drops 3 levels worth, but we get to summon a Shadow that has 1/2 our HP and shares our Bab.

FOUR LITTLE FRIENDS!!
Familiar!
Horsey!
Falcon!
Shadow!
Heart!!

...

Ignore that last one...

[Baroncognito]

FOUR LITTLE FRIENDS!!
Familiar!
Horsey!
Falcon!
Shadow!
Tumor!!


Possibly fixed?

... wait, can you get a celestial tumor then?

[Crustypeanut]

stop now...seriously...don't even bother...whole mess of crazy ahead...
Why go Full Wizard at all?
Heck, why even use a Caster?
Go Full on Cavalier!
Slap on Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage), nab the Arcane Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline).
BOOM!
A Familiar with Full Bab and 1/2 of d10HD.

And Cavaliers come with a Mount too! Get to level 4, grab the Horse Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horse-master-combat) feat and jump ship!
Now your Mount scales with you regardless of Cavalier levels!

But wait! There's MORE!

Pick a Class that comes with an Animal Companion and stack the Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) feat on the sucker! I like Falconer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/falconer) Ranger for this, as it has Full Bab and keeps close to the "non-caster" theme we got going here.

Well that about wraps thi...NOPE!

Shadowdancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/shadowdancer) for 3 levels, granted, we lose a Bab and our Falcon drops 3 levels worth, but we get to summon a Shadow that has 1/2 our HP and shares our Bab.

FOUR LITTLE FRIENDS!!
Familiar!
Horsey!
Falcon!
Shadow!
Heart!!

...

Ignore that last one...

Don't forget the barbarian one, rogue one, bard one, gunslinger one, and even the new Cavalier one that lets you get multiple animals.

[grarrrg]

Don't forget the barbarian one, rogue one, bard one, gunslinger one, and even the new Cavalier one that lets you get multiple animals.

Sadly, most of those won't help.

NOTE: I am sure there is an exception or two for the following, but for the most part...

Multiple Familiar-classes all stack to determine the 'special' bonuses (Bab/HP/Skills/etc...just use your stats regardless.
All Animal Companions will stack as 1 Animal Companion.
All Mounts will stack as 1 Mount.

Regarding the Druid/Ranger/Cavalier archetypes that let you have more than 1 Companion, these are not much help, as at higher levels, 1 or at most 2 companions will be MUCH more effective than a horde of level 2's (barring potential UMD shenanigans anyway).

If you can find a Class/PrC that _specifically_ breaks these limits in a _useful_ manner, then go nuts.
Otherwise 4 is roughly the useful limit.

(and yes, you can snag an Eidolon as well, but between needing Summoner levels for a 'useful' Eidolon, and needing levels in something else for a 'useful' Animal Companion, it becomes a wash...)