Four arms + Two twohanders = A confused DM/Player!

[gurgleflep]

Hey, something of an odd question: if a race has four arms, could they use two two-handed weapons? I know they'd have to use the two-weapon fighting or multi-weapon feats, but would something like this be allowed?
Lets just say a medium sized barbarian of no particular race has 4 - 6 arms and two or three greataxes, each dealing d12 damage... That's quite a bit of damage, and it seems pretty unreasonable. I know you're all pretty handy when it comes to this kind of thing, so please help me out.
Thank you all!

[Snowbluff]

It's not unreasonable. 2 longswords would deal 1d8 each as opposed to 1d12, making the longswords better. The benefit from Str would be the same as well, IIRC.

[Greenish]

Yes, you could. With TWF/MWF, the penalties would be -4/-4(/-4), and couldn't by RAW be reduced by Oversized TWF (since that only applies to one-handed weapons).

Also, figure out the effort that goes into getting the extra arms, and the penalties from fighting with multiple weapons, and realize that a single weapon is still probably better.

[Snowbluff]

Yes, you could. With TWF/MWF, the penalties would be -4/-4(/-4), and couldn't by RAW be reduced by Oversized TWF (since that only applies to one-handed weapons). Would people stop suggesting OTWF? It's not a mandatory feat. It's marginally better than weapon focus


Also, figure out the effort that goes into getting the extra arms, and the penalties from fighting with multiple weapons, and realize that a single weapon is still probably better.
It's a cakewalk ,since MWF pulls far ahead over TWF and TH with different bonuses. Iaijutsu focus, SA, Duskblade Channel, etc.

Heck, you can have it for 1 LA.

[Greenish]

Would people stop suggesting OTWF? It's not a mandatory feat. It's marginally better than weapon focusIt's pretty decent. +2 Hit, I'd take that.


It's a cakewalk ,since MWF pulls far ahead over TWF and TH with different bonuses. Iaijutsu focus, SA, Duskblade Channel, etc.Meh, you can stack bonuses all you want, standard charging's so easy the damage goes to +yes with less effort.


Heck, you can have it for 1 LA.I'm aware of diopsids, yes. They're very nice, yes. Still not unreasonable.

[Snowbluff]

It's pretty decent. +2 Hit, I'd take that....that doesn't focus when you make a single attack.


Meh, you can stack bonuses all you want, standard charging's so easy the damage goes to +yes with less effort. Glass cannon. Bad terrain. Lower to-hit (power attack versus other options more viable for more attacks).

Uberchargers are a TO experiment that function poorly against savvy GM, and a single TO level dip gives you the same build with Perfect MWF.

MWF has very little cost over TWF, but carries a much larger benefit. Classes that stack benefits also tend to have better things like skill points or spells.

At the very least, MWF = TH in usability. It essentially fixes everything wrong with TWF by being ridiculous in comparison.

[gurgleflep]

It's not unreasonable. 2 longswords would deal 1d8 each as opposed to 1d12, making the longswords better. The benefit from Str would be the same as well, IIRC.

Wouldn't it be 3d12 because it's 3 greataxes?


Yes, you could. With TWF/MWF, the penalties would be -4/-4(/-4), and couldn't by RAW be reduced by Oversized TWF (since that only applies to one-handed weapons).

Also, figure out the effort that goes into getting the extra arms, and the penalties from fighting with multiple weapons, and realize that a single weapon is still probably better.

What's Oversized TWF, and where can I find it?

[Siosilvar]

Wouldn't it be 3d12 because it's 3 greataxes?

Well, yes, but 6 longswords would be 6d8 which is more average damage, since the chance to hit is the same with a longsword or greataxe. X% chance of landing (1d8 + 1/2 Str)) + X% chance of landing (1d8 + 1/2 Str) is greater than X% chance of landing (1d12 + Str).

[gurgleflep]

Well, yes, but 6 longswords would be 6d8 which is more average damage, since the chance to hit is the same with a longsword or greataxe. X% chance of landing (1d8 + 1/2 Str)) + X% chance of landing (1d8 + 1/2 Str) is greater than X% chance of landing (1d12 + Str).

I like this idea better than three greataxes. More damage!
Can you imagine how epic of a whirlwind this would be?

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, when you add Sneak Attack, Iaijutsu, poisons, procced weapon effects, on-chance feats, on-critical effects...




What's Oversized TWF, and where can I find it?

Treats your weapons as light for determining TWF penalties (effectively +2 to hit). Arguably worse than Weapon Focus (which is bad) because it doesn't work when you are not TWF, and it doesn't qualify you for a bunch of other things (Weapon Focus is old enough to find itself a frequent feat tax). On the other hand it's +1 over Weapon Focus.

Complete Adventurer.

[Greenish]

Uberchargers are a TO experiment that function poorly against savvy GM, and a single TO level dip gives you the same build with Perfect MWF.I'm not talking TO. I'm just saying, single two-hander has much lower opportunity cost. That you can squeeze X amount of damage from MWF is quite irrelevant, since you can squeeze X amount of damage from most everything.


At the very least, MWF = TH in usability. It essentially fixes everything wrong with TWF by being ridiculous in comparison.Like the mobility problems or the cost of the weapons or the feat cost or piercing DR or weaker bonus attacks or limited weapon selection?

The point is that no, wielding two two-handers or multiweapon fighting isn't overpowered compared to wielding a single two-hander, with similar investment.

[Gwendol]

Note that with many arms you may be better off swinging less weapons and using more arms on each weapon since you get to add 1/2 STR to damage for each arm (not pair) holding the weapon.

[Aran Thule]

I have definate memories of the Thri Kreen having four arms which they often used with their unique double weapons.
I dont have the books to hand but i think the info on them was in the psionics handbook and they were a player race in dark sun.

[Greenish]

I have definate memories of the Thri Kreen having four arms which they often used with their unique double weapons.
I dont have the books to hand but i think the info on them was in the psionics handbook and they were a player race in dark sun.Yes, thri-kreen are probably the simplest way to do multi-weapon fighting. EPH has the psionic, 2 RHD, +2 LA version, and Shining South has the 2 RHD, +1 LA non-psionic one.

Other than that, the already mentioned diopsid (+1 LA, Dragon Magazine Compendium) can't do true multi-weapon fighting, but is tailor-made for dual-wielding two-handed weapons. Girallon's Blessing (SC) is a 3rd level cleric spell with nice long duration that grants you an extra pair of arms (which explicitly have opposable thumbs). Girallon Arms (MoI) soulmeld bound to totem chakra (requires two levels of totemist) grants you four claw attacks, but whether you gain extra arms is not specified.

[Snowbluff]

I'm not talking TO. I'm just saying, single two-hander has much lower opportunity cost. That you can squeeze X amount of damage from MWF is quite irrelevant, since you can squeeze X amount of damage from most everything.It's not just a damage issue. MWF facilitates other uses as well. It's not for the T4 and below.


Like the mobility problems or
Lion Spirit Totem, Travel Devotion, ToB maneuvers, Teleportation... This hasn't been a legitimate complaint for any of the 3 styles in some time.

the cost of the weapons or the feat costHasn't been a problem since Wizards.


or piercing DR or weaker bonus attacks or limited weapon selection?Insectile Elf Eternal Blade. :smalltongue:

Or you can pack for different weapon types. Ifyou know hat campaign you are doing ,you can get around DR though a bunch of other ways.

[Darrin]

I'm aware of diopsids, yes. They're very nice, yes. Still not unreasonable.

Hmm. If you throw Dragonborn of Bahumat on a Diopsid, do they keep the extra arms?


I like this idea better than three greataxes. More damage!
Can you imagine how epic of a whirlwind this would be?

If by "whirlwind" you mean Whirlwind Attack, having three greataxes and/or six arms would do diddley squat for you. Whirlwind Attack doesn't care how many arms/weapons you have, you get one attack per target within reach. You're much better off getting LONGER arms rather than MORE arms.


It's not just a damage issue. MWF facilitates other uses as well. It's not for the T4 and below.


Huh? What other uses? Or do you mean, "I can wield a greatsword and a shield and still have a hand free to cast timestop."



Lion Spirit Totem, Travel Devotion, ToB maneuvers, Teleportation... This hasn't been a legitimate complaint for any of the 3 styles in some time.


These same abilities help a two-hander just as much, if not more so, than MWF/TWFing. On top of that, a MWF/TWFer has to invest considerably more resources into his combat style than a two-hander, which means he generally has less to invest investing resources into extra movement than the two-hander.



Hasn't been a problem since Wizards.


Most sane DMs do not allow the wizards to engage in "infinite money" tricks. Most games assume that loot will be divided somewhat evenly, and no player will have considerably more resources than any other player.



Insectile Elf Eternal Blade. :smalltongue:


Savage Species p. 122: "Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain
no additional attacks."

The LA +2 is also problematic on a PrC that requires BAB +10, assuming you want to get Island in Time pre-epic.



Or you can pack for different weapon types. Ifyou know hat campaign you are doing ,you can get around DR though a bunch of other ways.

A MWFer trying to do the Golfbag thing would have to buy four times the weapons. A two-hander mostly gets around DR by just doing MOAR damage, while a MWFer may have to hit three additional times and buff his damage four times as much to get the same results.

[Snowbluff]

Huh? What other uses? Or do you mean, "I can wield a greatsword and a shield and still have a hand free to cast timestop." It's for applying poisons and debuffs. TH is the undisputed king of damage, but more attacks means more saves/poisons/debuffs. Most of the classes that can do these things (Factotum, Rogue, Duskblade to a degree) are not able to make good use of power attack without things like rage.




These same abilities help a two-hander just as much, if not more so, than MWF/TWFing. On top of that, a MWF/TWFer has to invest considerably more resources into his combat style than a two-hander, which means he generally has less to invest investing resources into extra movement than the two-hander.
I said all three styles.

Not considerably more, just different. MWF is 3 feats, mirroring Power Attack and selected additions (Shock Trooper, for example).



Most sane DMs do not allow the wizards to engage in "infinite money" tricks. Most games assume that loot will be divided somewhat evenly, and no player will have considerably more resources than any other player. GMW and other buffs. When was the last time you added enhancment past +1? I usually grab extra abilities instead of pluses.


Savage Species p. 122: "Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain
no additional attacks."

The LA +2 is also problematic on a PrC that requires BAB +10, assuming you want to get Island in Time pre-epic.

Why would they gain extra attacks? Of course they have no claw or the like. Humans don't have 2 attack, one for each hand. You have to wield a weapon to get one. Either way, I've tried finding a precedent for an attack section that refers to anything other than natural attacks.

The 2 LA is harsh, but DR becomes a bigger issue by the time EB comes online.


A MWFer trying to do the Golfbag thing would have to buy four times the weapons. A two-hander mostly gets around DR by just doing MOAR damage, while a MWFer may have to hit three additional times and buff his damage four times as much to get the same results.
Not a damage issue. Like I said, you can have things like GMW to back you up. I think sticking to metalline or just not spending the extra GP to enhance your cold iron (/etc) weapons. These are things I would do with TH to save money as well.

It's too bad MWF Duskblade works only so late. At ECL 15 you have a MWF you can save tons of money on car insurance weapon bonuses and potentially deal some good debuffs on a full attack.

[gurgleflep]

If by "whirlwind" you mean Whirlwind Attack, having three greataxes and/or six arms would do diddley squat for you. Whirlwind Attack doesn't care how many arms/weapons you have, you get one attack per target within reach. You're much better off getting LONGER arms rather than MORE arms.

Not the attack, just... visually it'd be awesome.
Longer arms, you say? You're just aiding me in my destructiveness even further!

[Snowbluff]

Not the attack, just... visually it'd be awesome.
Longer arms, you say? You're just aiding me in my destructiveness even further!

Willing Deformity: Tall and Inhuman Reach give 5 ft. each, but that's not a feat investment a TWF/MWF should be able to make.

Size enhancements are your best bet. Like taking a spell or template to become large.

[Darius Kane]

DMG2 has a +2 LA template Aberrant Limbs. It gives a second, usable pair of arms and the MWFing feat. Arguably it's NPC only, tho.

[gurgleflep]

Willing Deformity: Tall and Inhuman Reach give 5 ft. each, but that's not a feat investment a TWF/MWF should be able to make.

Size enhancements are your best bet. Like taking a spell or template to become large.

Why shouldn't they be able to make that feat investment?


DMG2 has a +2 LA template Aberrant Limbs. It gives a second, usable pair of arms and the MWFing feat. Arguably it's NPC only, tho.

Out of curiosity, why's it NPC only?

[Snowbluff]

Why shouldn't they be able to make that feat investment? It's 2 feats per 5 feet of reach. MWF will usually spent 3 of their feats already. Normally you'll only have 7 feats (before flaws and classes), so another 2 is really costly.


Out of curiosity, why's it NPC only?

The argument seems to be that it shows up in a chart for NPC options. They would take that like the "Cohort only" LA.

[Darius Kane]

Out of curiosity, why's it NPC only?
Well, the rules say it's for NPCs. Personally I don't care about such distinctions.

[ericgrau]

With all the attack roll penalties, LA and -5 secondary attacks, a +2 is about 20% more hits and therefore 20% more damage on full attacks. For only 1 feat that is nice. Note I'm counting the % increase in hits, not the % of attacks, so the less often you hit the more your damage goes up. A +1 never ever ever translates into 5% more damage; it's always more than that.

Your single attacks aren't benefitting but even if half of your attacks are single attacks, a good majority of your damage comes from your full attacks. So the average might be something like 15% more damage.

The old "flurry of misses" syndrome is common on builds with several attacks and those builds especially should not underestimate attack bonus. This is more of an issue of widespread lack of understanding than attack bonus actually being minor.

If the OP has decided against THF, then the trick with a huge number of attacks to pull ahead of THF is to get a large number of per hit effects (barring shocktrooper). I like spell storing weapons, for example, but a variety of classes have their own add-ons. Unfortunately that means you want light off-hand weapons for more hits. Perhaps you could ask the DM for a custom OMWF feat. But even before you get that feat it will be painful but not be the end of the world to be around 15% less effective. If you can squeeze in 4 fighter levels then melee weapon mastery likewise helps.

[Gnome Alone]

If I had four arms and used every single one of them for holding weapons, I think I'd have some kind of crisis of conscience sooner or later.

"What is Psychic Insect Samurai Gorflax doing with his life? Can he not use even one pincer to heal?"