Could someone explain counterspelling, please?

[Burpcycle]

Our BBEG is a wizard, and I'm a wizard. I've never had to use counterspelling before and I'm not 100% sure on the details.

[Alaris]

Our BBEG is a wizard, and I'm a wizard. I've never had to use counterspelling before and I'm not 100% sure on the details.

Well, I believe, without any feats, you must declare that you "Ready an action to Counterspell" during your turn.

Then, when the target uses his spell, you Spellcraft it, to determine the spell. If you have the exact spell he has prepared, or Dispel Magic, then you can attempt to Counterspell it.

If you had the exact spell, you will use that spell (costing that Spell Slot), and the spell is automatically counterspelled, meaning nothing will happen.

However, if you only had Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic, then you must make a Caster Level Check against his spell to dispel it.

Feat: There are a few feats that can enhance your ability to Counterspell, such as Improved Counterspell or Reactive Counterspell.

Improved Counterspell: Instead of needing the exact spell, you need a spell of the same school (of one or more spell levels higher).

Reactive Counterspell: You do not need to ready an action to Counterspell. If you choose to counter an opponents spell, you lose your next turn, regardless of if it succeeded or failed.

[Seharvepernfan]

Rev up that PHB. Page 170-171 has the most important bits, page 160 has the ready-action details, Improved Counterspell is on page 95, and then of course Dispel Magic is on page 223. Read all that and you're golden.

The archmage prestige class from the DMG has an optional ability called "mastery of counterspelling".

There are a few non-core things you might be interested in. Magic of Faerun has the "reactive counterspell" feat.

A long time ago, I found a few homebrew ones here on the forum that I like: Counter-Spell [Metamagic]
Prerequisites: 8 ranks in Spellcraft
Benefit: A spell modified by this feat can be cast as a counter as an immediate action. Whenever you succeed on a Spellcraft check to determine that another spellcaster is casting a spell that you can counter with the counter-spell, you may use your counter-spell immediately. You may cast a counter-spell normally on your own turn. Spontaneous casters casting a spell modified by this feat may not act on their next turn except to take a free action.
You may still counterspell as normal. A counter-spell takes up a slot two levels higher than the original spell.

Counter-spell Master [General]
Prerequisites: Improved Counterspelling, Counter-Spell, 12 ranks in Spellcraft
Benefit: When you ready an action to counterspell, you need not select a specific target to counterspell; you may counterspell any target within range.

[Malachei]

The normal (sub-par) way:

Normally, you can ready an action to counterspell. Once you reliably detect spellcasting, you can either counterspell with dispel magic (followed by a successful dispel check), or, after identifying the spell with a spellcraft check, use the exact same spell (haste to counter haste) or its opposite, if it has one (slow to counter haste). This second strategy is successful.

If you have the Improved Counterspell feat, instead of using the exact same spell, you can use any spell from the same school instead, which must be at least one level higher than the spell you want to counter.

The better way:

Have Battlemagic Perception up. Automatically sense spellcasting nearby. Counterspell as a free action, which ends Battlemagic Perception. Cast Battlemagic Perception again.

You can also have a look at the Dispelling and Counterspelling Compilation (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation) (there might be a more recent version).

[kardar233]

If you've got a cleric or other Turn-using divine caster in the party they can get in the counterspelling game too without using their main actions by taking the Divine Defiance (http://dndtools.eu/feats/fiendish-codex-ii-tyrants-of-the-nine-hells--67/divine-defiance--655/) feat.

[Burpcycle]

Thanks, guys. I don't have room for the appropriate feats, and my dispel magic is unlikely to be able to overpower his caster level, so I don't think this will work, but the knowledge that it's not worth pursuing yet is still valuable, so this is still very useful.

[Malachei]

Depending on your level of play and available material, you can also use:


Eyes of the Oracle, which lets you ready an action per round that does not count against your actions. Once you use this action once, the spell ends.
Celerity, which lets you immediately take an action. Because Celerity has an immediate action casting time, it can interrupt other actions. The spell is considered very powerful by most of the people, and broken by some.


In general, dealing damage to the enemy caster during his casting is considered superior to counterspelling. You do so by using Battlemagic Perception, Celerity, or a readied action and a reliable damage spell.

If you're wearing a Ring of Counterspells, it automatically counters a spell, but only if the spell targets you. Because Greater Dispel Magic is a common tactic when wizards fight, having a Greater Ring of Counterspells with Greater Dispel Magic is a good idea. It saves you an action (or the use of your Battlemagic Perception). Note, however, that your enemy could also use Chain Dispel or Reaving Dispel, against which your Ring would not work.

[Malachei]

Thanks, guys. I don't have room for the appropriate feats, and my dispel magic is unlikely to be able to overpower his caster level, so I don't think this will work, but the knowledge that it's not worth pursuing yet is still valuable, so this is still very useful.

Sorry for the double-post.

I'm not sure this is the conclusion I would come to.

You can still rely on brute-force-counterspelling:
As long as you have a reliable damage-dealer, you can disrupt enemy casting perfectly fine (with readied action or Celerity or other tactics).

For classic counterspelling:
As long as you make your Spellcraft check to identify the spell (and you should make that check anyway, it is easy), and have prepared the exact spell, you don't need a dispel check. The enemy's spell is automatically countered. And with Battlemagic Perception or a Ring of Spellbattle, it is a free action for you. No need to ready an action, unless you want to counterspell twice in the first round.

If you make your Spellcraft check and find you don't have the exact spell, you need to use a version of Dispel Magic. There are many ways to boost your dispel check (again, see the Counterspelling Compilation (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation)), so all hope is not lost.

What level is your character? Are you facing the BBEG soon or is that a campaign climax likely to occur only at higher levels?

[Gavinfoxx]

I was going to link to the Counterspelling handbook, but instead I will just +1 that you should read it!

[Jack Zander]

I like using the silence spell to counterspell. Just ready it and when you see them casting, cast silence targeting the ground nearby them. That way they don't get a save, and depending on the terrain, they might not be able to cast the next round very easily either.

[W3bDragon]

I like using the silence spell to counterspell. Just ready it and when you see them casting, cast silence targeting the ground nearby them. That way they don't get a save, and depending on the terrain, they might not be able to cast the next round very easily either.

Though that works, its not as reliable as counterspelling if the enemy caster still has a move action. It would be trivial for an enemy caster to succeed the Spellcraft check required to identify the spell you cast, or succeed the rather obvious Listen check to notice he's been covered in complete silence, and decide to move 30 feet before casting, putting him out of the silence radius.

As for Battlemagic Perception, if Heroes of Battle isn't usable in your game, there is a strictly inferior spell called Duelward in the Complete Arcane I believe, that allows you to counterspell as an immediate action. Nowhere near as good as Battlemagic Perception, but serviceable in a pinch.

[only1doug]

See also: Ring of Spell Battle from MIC (pg 127) 12k gp, always be aware when spells are being cast near you, spellcraft check to identify them, 1/day counter or change target as an imeadiate action.

[Jack Zander]

Though that works, its not as reliable as counterspelling if the enemy caster still has a move action. It would be trivial for an enemy caster to succeed the Spellcraft check required to identify the spell you cast, or succeed the rather obvious Listen check to notice he's been covered in complete silence, and decide to move 30 feet before casting, putting him out of the silence radius.

I don't think he's allowed to do that if you've readied the spell to be cast when he starts casting. You can't just stop casting your spell until you've move and then recast it again. Otherwise you could have all sorts of abuse.

Of course, he's free to move AFTER he fails to cast his spell in a zone of silence.

[CalamaroJoe]

I like using the silence spell to counterspell. Just ready it and when you see them casting, cast silence targeting the ground nearby them. That way they don't get a save, and depending on the terrain, they might not be able to cast the next round very easily either.
This is great! I never thought of it, yet it's simple and quick.

Actually this brings up a problem that I always had with readied actions: if you wait to cast your spell (standard action) until seeing that your foe is doing a certain (standard) action, how comes that you finish before your foe?

[Burpcycle]

Sorry for the double-post.

I'm not sure this is the conclusion I would come to.

You can still rely on brute-force-counterspelling:
As long as you have a reliable damage-dealer, you can disrupt enemy casting perfectly fine (with readied action or Celerity or other tactics).

For classic counterspelling:
As long as you make your Spellcraft check to identify the spell (and you should make that check anyway, it is easy), and have prepared the exact spell, you don't need a dispel check. The enemy's spell is automatically countered. And with Battlemagic Perception or a Ring of Spellbattle, it is a free action for you. No need to ready an action, unless you want to counterspell twice in the first round.

If you make your Spellcraft check and find you don't have the exact spell, you need to use a version of Dispel Magic. There are many ways to boost your dispel check (again, see the Counterspelling Compilation (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation)), so all hope is not lost.

What level is your character? Are you facing the BBEG soon or is that a campaign climax likely to occur only at higher levels?

I am a level 13 wizard, and the BBEG is 15 or 16 (I don't know). I don't know precisely when well be fighting him, but it's likely to be before another level up.

[Malachei]

I like using the silence spell to counterspell. Just ready it and when you see them casting, cast silence targeting the ground nearby them. That way they don't get a save, and depending on the terrain, they might not be able to cast the next round very easily either.

Well, technically you can do this with everything that breaks Line of Effect.

However, as spellcasting requires LOE, this is a general rules loophole, and exploiting it will drastically impact the game, possibly to the extent of an angry DM throwing books or letting rocks fall.

Silencing is, of course, better in that it takes away the option of the enemy buffing himself, as well. But brute-force-counterspelling is probably superior in that it takes away the enemy himself.

[Seharvepernfan]

Actually this brings up a problem that I always had with readied actions: if you wait to cast your spell (standard action) until seeing that your foe is doing a certain (standard) action, how comes that you finish before your foe?

I've wondered this myself. I know that in 2nd edition, people had casting speeds, so it might be an unintentional holdover. However, when you actually counterspell, I think the magic of your spell just kinda flies into the magic of their spell, and I also don't think you're totally finishing the spell when you cast it.

[Acanous]

There's also the Ring of Spell Battle, which doesn't actually counterspell anything, but allows you to change a spell's target.

So you use it like Spell Turning to hit the caster.

[Jack Zander]

Silencing is, of course, better in that it takes away the option of the enemy buffing himself, as well. But brute-force-counterspelling is probably superior in that it takes away the enemy himself.

Brute force is better if you can actually hit the caster, if you can actually damage the caster, and if the caster hasn't cheesed out his concentration. Silence is pretty much guaranteed to work, but if you can ensure a powerful enough hit then of course brute force will be better.

[Malachei]

Brute force is better if you can actually hit the caster, if you can actually damage the caster, and if the caster hasn't cheesed out his concentration. Silence is pretty much guaranteed to work, but if you can ensure a powerful enough hit then of course brute force will be better.

Yes. And if you cannot reliably cause harm to an enemy caster, chances are you are between a rock and a hard place.

Especially because any enemy caster that you'd seriously want (i.e. need) to counterspell against would probably not be very impressed by your BSF friend's pointy stick. Otherwise, the cadter is simply not dangerous enough to warrant counterspelling.

[Kane0]

Our BBEG is a wizard, and I'm a wizard. I've never had to use counterspelling before and I'm not 100% sure on the details.

Usually the procedure is:
1. Prepare an action to counterspell
2. Enemy casts spell
3. You identify spell (and depending on your working of readying you choose whether to counterspell or not)
4. You get your readied action to cast a dispel magic, the same spell that is being cast by the enemy or the opposite spell (light/darkness, bless/bane, etc)

I prefer to have a spell called 'counterspell' which is essentially a targeted dispel magic usable as an immediate action, but thats just me.

[Pickford]

Our BBEG is a wizard, and I'm a wizard. I've never had to use counterspelling before and I'm not 100% sure on the details.

Since no one has mentioned it yet, you might want Duelward from Complete Arcane, let's you get off a counterspell as an immediate action and ups your spellcraft.

edit: doh! That's what I get for not using the find feature.

[Malachei]

Since no one has mentioned it yet, you might want Duelward from Complete Arcane, let's you get off a counterspell as an immediate action and ups your spellcraft.

Mentioned by W3bDragon, 11 posts above.

[Jack Zander]

Yes. And if you cannot reliably cause harm to an enemy caster, chances are you are between a rock and a hard place.

Especially because any enemy caster that you'd seriously want (i.e. need) to counterspell against would probably not be very impressed by your BSF friend's pointy stick. Otherwise, the cadter is simply not dangerous enough to warrant counterspelling.

I agree with the first idea, but I'm not sure I entirely follow the second. It seems like you're agreeing that counter spelling works better than brute force against serious casters, which is what I was saying all along, but not what you were originally arguing for.

[Person_Man]

It's also worth mentioning that anyone can ready any Standard Action, and that if you do so in response to "any enemy casting a spell or manifesting a psionic power, or the last enemy to take any action before the start of my next turn." Or you can make it more specific if you're worried about a certain enemy. But the point is that you can thus disrupt any one enemy's spell fairly easily just by hitting them. (Unless they're somehow capable of making a Concentration check equal to 10 + the damage dealt, which is nearly impossible at mid levels unless they've specifically optimized Concentration). It's particularly worthwhile for anyone with access to strong Standard Actions - all full casters, psionics, binder, Tome of Battle, Greater Manyshot, etc.

So you really shouldn't be using a counterspell action (unless you have Immediate Action counterspell via Battlemagic Perception, Duelward, Celerity, Divine Defiance, etc), because doing so basically wastes an opportunity for you to attack/cast/etc your enemy while still disrupting their spell.

[tiercel]

If you really have overwhelming action economy (the classic lone BBEG), there are worse things than having one party member lock down the BBEG's spellcasting.

As has been mentioned, generally you can do better than the actual Counterspell action. If you can reliably feed the BBEG damage through readied actions, awesome - take away his magic and work on, you know, actually killing him. If the BBEG has enough defenses up that you can't reliably break his spells with direct damage, readied silence is awfully nice (just give the party rogue a wand of silence to UMD; you don't care about the save DC since you aren't casting directly on the BBEG).

Of course, me, I prefer to just cast silence onto a tanglefoot bag, SPLAT. (If he can't just step away from the silenced object, you don't have to keep burning spells to keep his verbal spellcasting shut down.)