[PF] [CotCT] Need Help Building a Fun Replacement Character

[nobodez]

Okay, so it's been a while since I was active here, but I figured that this would be the best place to get advice (hopefully I'm not wrong).

My Curse of the Crimson Throne character just died last session, and I've got a month to build a new one.

My GM let me roll my stats, and then let me add to them with five point buy points (I know, it's kind of broken, but hey, them's the breaks).

So, here's the stats I rolled:

11 Str
16 Dex
15 Con
14 Int
12 Wis
16 Cha

I only have the Core Rulebook and Advanced Player's Guide available to make the character.

I'd like some advice on a fun character that would either be a good non-cleric spellcaster (since my mother is playing the cleric), or a good non-ranged combatant (since the archery ranger survived the combat that killed most of the rest of the party).

Oh, and while the character is only 1st level, I'd like to have a plan on where to take them.

[nobodez]

Okay, since I know people are reading this thread, but not commenting, I'll post my first idea.

Urban Ranger (headed for Urban Ranger 3/Poisoner Rogue 4/Master Spy 10)
Human (Favored Class Ranger for te +1 skill point)

Upped Strength to 14 (using 4 points) and Wisdom to 13 (using the last 1).

Feats: TWF, Favored Defense

Favored Enemy: Humans

Traits: Fast-Talker (+1 Bluff, always class skill), World Traveler (+1 Sense Motive, always class skill)

Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Disguise, Perception, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Stealth, Survival (GM gave free rank in Craft or Profession and Knowledge: Local, took Craft: Alchemy)

Weapons: 2 Kukris (this is a bit of fluff, I know I should have taken longsword and short sword, but I wanted some fluff), longbow (will eventually be composite, but that's for latter)

Armor: Studded Leather (could have gone for chain shirt, but again, fluff)

Other Equipment: Arrows (20), Blunt Arrows (20), Explorer's Outfit (free), Belt Pouch, Silk Rope, Thieves' Tools, Courtier's Outfit (fluff, works for a "secret service" type organization before joining party), Jewelry (again, fluff for the "secret service" organization), Average Cost of Living (this takes the last of the 300 Max starting gold).

Fluff: Works for a "secret service" type organization, sent to work with the party after two-thirds (actually 3/5s, but the Summoner never revealed that his humanoid eidolon wasn't real) of the party was killed.

[Keneth]

(since my mother is playing the cleric)

I'm sorry, I can't seem to get past this. You're playing D&D with your mom? I've seen a lot of varied groups, but that's a first. :smallbiggrin:

What kind of advice are you looking for exactly? The build you suggested probably won't be very combat effective, but can be a great social butterfly and general skill monkey. It's also not gonna be very cost efficient, so unless your GM is generous with the loot, having to upgrade two weapons and crafting/buying poison might get somewhat painful in the long run.

And no, taking a longsword and short sword for TWF is a mistake. You should always take two light weapons of the same type, especially on characters with medium BAB progression. Kukris are a good choice.

[Blyte]

I suggest you go summoner and if you feel crazy, you can salvage this into a paladin.

summoner is quite simple to make work.


paladin... go human

take your str to 14 with build points, and 16 with racial bonus.

scimitar + shield + breast plate

feats:
1 fey foundling
1 power attack
3 extra lay hands
5 greater mercy
7 extra lay hands
9 improved critical

try to get the gear that makes you as survivable as possible, and of course the thing that gives you +2d6 lay hands/burst heals. best, armor, shield, prot ring, and res cloak you can get of course...

here's the gimmic, shoot for a vicious scimitar, then use your 5th level pally ability to make it flaming and/or holy when you can. the vicious will give you that cheap damage boost you need to keep monsters from just ignoring you. you *should* have enough self heals to keep you up and then some even with doing harm to yourself. keep a masterwork scimitar on your hip as well for when you can clearing fodder.

I made a paladin like this with more optimal stats, and I went with a great sword and more offensive route.. he is working quite well for the friend I made him for. My sorcerer still ends up pulling aggro off him, but he is at least enough of a contender in the damage category, that monsters can't totally ignore him. I think going the tank route with your pally and focusing on self preservation early on is a better route. once you get a boat load of swift 5d6+10 heals, you might opt to switch over to a great sword as well.

[nobodez]

I'm sorry, I can't seem to get past this. You're playing D&D with your mom? I've seen a lot of varied groups, but that's a first. :smallbiggrin:

What kind of advice are you looking for exactly? The build you suggested probably won't be very combat effective, but can be a great social butterfly and general skill monkey. It's also not gonna be very cost efficient, so unless your GM is generous with the loot, having to upgrade two weapons and crafting/buying poison might get somewhat painful in the long run.

And no, taking a longsword and short sword for TWF is a mistake. You should always take two light weapons of the same type, especially on characters with medium BAB progression. Kukris are a good choice.

Well, considering that the first D&D game I ran was a two person game for my mom and dad, it's about par for the course (I've been the youngest player in every home game I've played or GMed outside of college).

As for the build, yeah, it was going to be a social build. My main in the previous campaign was a cleric with a three level fighter dip for armor training, while his cohort was a wizard/fighter 1/Eldritch Knight. So I wanted to play a more skill-focused character.

As for upgradng the weapons, it shouldn't be a problem, as we'll have a cleric with a potential for CMA&A (and I can take Leadership for a crafting buddy as well). As for the poison, Master Alchemist is in the plan, so making poison shouldn't be that difficult.

[nobodez]

I suggest you go summoner and if you feel crazy, you can salvage this into a paladin.

summoner is quite simple to make work.


paladin... go human

take your str to 14 with build points, and 16 with racial bonus.

scimitar + shield + breast plate

feats:
1 fey foundling
1 power attack
3 extra lay hands
5 greater mercy
7 extra lay hands
9 improved critical

try to get the gear that makes you as survivable as possible, and of course the thing that gives you +2d6 lay hands/burst heals. best, armor, shield, prot ring, and res cloak you can get of course...

here's the gimmic, shoot for a vicious scimitar, then use your 5th level pally ability to make it flaming and/or holy when you can. the vicious will give you that cheap damage boost you need to keep monsters from just ignoring you. you *should* have enough self heals to keep you up and then some even with doing harm to yourself. keep a masterwork scimitar on your hip as well for when you can clearing fodder.

I made a paladin like this with more optimal stats, and I went with a great sword and more offensive route.. he is working quite well for the friend I made him for. My sorcerer still ends up pulling aggro off him, but he is at least enough of a contender in the damage category, that monsters can't totally ignore him. I think going the tank route with your pally and focusing on self preservation early on is a better route. once you get a boat load of swift 5d6+10 heals, you might opt to switch over to a great sword as well.

I was thinking Summoner again, but that'd be a waste of great physical stats.

As for the paladin build, Fey Foundling is from Inner Sea World Guide, so I'd have to find something else (though Fast Healer is too feat heavy).

Looks interesting though, so I'll build it up tonight to see how it feels.

[avr]

Maybe it's just me, but with those stats (and an urge to play a skill-focused character) I'd go for a ninja rather than a ranger of any sort. You can then use your extra stat points to get some 18s rather than spreading them around into mediocrity.

[nobodez]

Maybe it's just me, but with those stats (and an urge to play a skill-focused character) I'd go for a ninja rather than a ranger of any sort. You can then use your extra stat points to get some 18s rather than spreading them around into mediocrity.

Again, it becomes a problem of what classes are available. I only have the Core 11 and the APG 5, no Ninja (or anything else from UC or UM) is right out.

That being said, any suggestions on how to build a nice combat rogue?

[Keneth]

Well, considering that the first D&D game I ran was a two person game for my mom and dad, it's about par for the course (I've been the youngest player in every home game I've played or GMed outside of college).

That's interesting. People who have such comfortable relationships with their parents are far and few between. I see occasional siblings or cousins, and I even know a friend who played D&D with his 90 year old grandmother, but yeah, this is definitely the first time I've heard an adult person say they play D&D with their parents. Good for you, I guess. :smallsmile:


Master Alchemist is in the plan, so making poison shouldn't be that difficult.

Master Alchemist significantly shortens the time required to craft poisons, but it's the ridiculous price of poison that generally turns people away from it. Paying hundreds or even thousands of gold pieces for an effect that can fail with a single saving throw, and Fortitude at that, is just preposterous. In my games, every "dose" of poison (i.e. every vial) counts for 10 uses, and even then some of the more expensive ones aren't really worth it.

[nobodez]

That's interesting. People who have such comfortable relationships with their parents are far and few between. I see occasional siblings or cousins, and I even know a friend who played D&D with his 90 year old grandmother, but yeah, this is definitely the first time I've heard an adult person say they play D&D with their parents. Good for you, I guess. :smallsmile:

Actually, outside of two years at Uni and Living Greyhawk (which my mom was actually a Triad member here for a while), I'm the youngest person I play with.


Master Alchemist significantly shortens the time required to craft poisons, but it's the ridiculous price of poison that generally turns people away from it. Paying hundreds or even thousands of gold pieces for an effect that can fail with a single saving throw, and Fortitude at that, is just preposterous. In my games, every "dose" of poison (i.e. every vial) counts for 10 uses, and even then some of the more expensive ones aren't really worth it.

Yeah, I was thinking of taking a fourth level in ranger early just to get a snake so I can milk the poison (though the Druid has a scorpion, so that might work too). I'm almost tempted to pick up a wand of minor creation just so it's not a problem (too bad psionics aren't core in Pathfinder, or I'd take a Shaper dip for Ectoplsmic Creation).

[avr]

Again, it becomes a problem of what classes are available. I only have the Core 11 and the APG 5, no Ninja (or anything else from UC or UM) is right out.

That being said, any suggestions on how to build a nice combat rogue?

The scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) archetype (APG) has a couple more means of getting sneak attack, which is better than the uncanny dodge it replaces IMO. If you take this archetype you'll feel encouraged to take a dip in something which gets martial weapon proficiency to make full use of the charge/skirmish bonus, or to also take the skulking slayer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc/skulking-slayer-rogue-half-orc) archetype (also APG) for the same reason. The two archetypes I mention are compatible, though skulking slayer isn't compatible with poisoner.

[nobodez]

The scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) archetype (APG) has a couple more means of getting sneak attack, which is better than the uncanny dodge it replaces IMO. If you take this archetype you'll feel encouraged to take a dip in something which gets martial weapon proficiency to make full use of the charge/skirmish bonus, or to also take the skulking slayer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc/skulking-slayer-rogue-half-orc) archetype (also APG) for the same reason. The two archetypes I mention are compatible, though skulking slayer isn't compatible with poisoner.

Won't be going Skulking Slayer, since it's ARG not APg, but good advice on the scout. Though Scout works best with a 2HW build with Vital Strike.

[avr]

Misread the source on the skulking slayer, sorry. But yes, the 2HW (or mounted lance, even) is why I mentioned a dip in a martial weapon proficiency class.

[nobodez]

Misread the source on the skulking slayer, sorry. But yes, the 2HW (or mounted lance, even) is why I mentioned a dip in a martial weapon proficiency class.

Well, a Scout/Swashbuckler Rogue would work just as well, and not require a dip in another class.

Also Gang Up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gang-up-combat), Outflank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/outflank-combat-teamwork), and Paired Opportunists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/paired-opportunists-combat-teamwork) along, of course, with Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-reflexes-combat) and the Opportunist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/opportunist-ex) advanced talent might be a nice "Flanking Conga Line of Death" chain.

With that many Teamwork feats, a 3-level dip into Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) might not be out of the question for Solo Tactics (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor#TOC-Solo-Tactics-Ex-)

[WeeFreeMen]

Have any interest in an Indiana Jones type character? Archaeologist/Adventurer with alot of Survival/Knowledge ranks. Specialized in Whips and the like.
Good for disarming/tripping.
Also fun to manipulate your environment with the whip and swing around.

Other "fun" ideas that come to mind.
A Pirate, with Rapier and Pistol build. Not optimal, but full of fluff. Bonus points for at some point using a harpoon.

So far we know your party is made up of a
Ranger, Bow spec'd
Cleric (Presumably heal-bot)

Anyone else? So we can add some diversity and fill roles.
*Also, its awesome that you and your mom play together.

[Xerxus]

Knife Master Rogue. Halfling.

[nobodez]

Have any interest in an Indiana Jones type character? Archaeologist/Adventurer with alot of Survival/Knowledge ranks. Specialized in Whips and the like.
Good for disarming/tripping.
Also fun to manipulate your environment with the whip and swing around.

Other "fun" ideas that come to mind.
A Pirate, with Rapier and Pistol build. Not optimal, but full of fluff. Bonus points for at some point using a harpoon.

So far we know your party is made up of a
Ranger, Bow spec'd
Cleric (Presumably heal-bot)

Anyone else? So we can add some diversity and fill roles.
*Also, its awesome that you and your mom play together.

Unfortunatly, again, limited to CRB and APG, so no guns allowed.

Where's Archaeologist/Adventurer actually put you, as in what class?

Well, I also mentioned the Vermin Druid (which might get me a back end into UM as a source, I asked the GM last night when I realized).

[WeeFreeMen]

I would say Lore-Warden Fighter, all Int-skills become class skills. Meaning, all knowledge.

As for the Whip specialty, it kind of hurts without Black-Snake from Super Genius Games, however; you can still get by. Just specialize in Trip/Disarm, don't worry about damage. You could also go for some rouge levels and get Disable device and SA.

If at all possible, I would attempt to talk to your GM about allowing SGG's Blacksnake archtype. It would open up a lot of options.

--
On the part about Guns. You can do Rapier/Swordbreaker Dagger or Rapier/Hand-Crossbow or Harpoon.

Guns aren't necessary.

[nobodez]

Okay, trying to build the 2HW Rogue/Inquisitor, but I need some help.

Does the Ancestral Arms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf#TOC-Alternate-Racial-Traits) Alternate Racial Trait allow you to bypass the normal +1 BAB restriction on Exotic Weapon Proficiency? I really don't want to have to build a full Elf to get the Elven Curve Blade, but I'm willing to if that's the only way.

[avr]

It's explicitly a bonus feat which bypasses requisites (see also; creatures with zero BAB & Weapon Finesse), so you're fine there.

[Waker]

Okay, trying to build the 2HW Rogue/Inquisitor, but I need some help.

Does the Ancestral Arms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf#TOC-Alternate-Racial-Traits) Alternate Racial Trait allow you to bypass the normal +1 BAB restriction on Exotic Weapon Proficiency? I really don't want to have to build a full Elf to get the Elven Curve Blade, but I'm willing to if that's the only way.

I see no reason why it wouldn't. It says they receive the feat at level 1, end sentence.
Anyways, I can't give much advice on the topic since I haven't spent a ton of time looking at the classes recently. You might want to look at the Thug archetype for Rogues. Inquisitor I would suggest the Destruction Judgment.
Alternatively if you are looking for a competent combatant with skills and magic, look at the Arcane Duelist Bard.

[nobodez]

It's explicitly a bonus feat which bypasses requisites (see also; creatures with zero BAB & Weapon Finesse), so you're fine there.


I see no reason why it wouldn't. It says they receive the feat at level 1, end sentence.
Anyways, I can't give much advice on the topic since I haven't spent a ton of time looking at the classes recently. You might want to look at the Thug archetype for Rogues. Inquisitor I would suggest the Destruction Judgment.
Alternatively if you are looking for a competent combatant with skills and magic, look at the Arcane Duelist Bard.

Thanks, both of you.

As for the Thug, well, I've never used Intimidate before, so I just sort of breezed over that.

Actually, the Inquisitor was just to get Solo Tactics (and the Acid Splash spell for unlimited ranged sneak attacks, but that's secondary), since I can't depend on my fellows to grab the Teamwork Feats and going for an AoO/Charge/Opportunist build seems like fun (though due to the Inquisitor Opportunist won't hit until 14th level, but that's not that much different than 11th, and the teamwork feats grant many more AoOs).

Actually, Arcane Duelist looks like fun too, I think I'll build one of those, see if the stats and full build look as fan as glancing over the Archetype does.

[nobodez]

Well, I have three builds fully stated out with backstories (Ranger/Rogue/Master Spy, Arcane Duelist Bard, and Archer Paladin), and one more stated but with a gestating background (Rogue/Inquisitor).

Thanks a bunch, all of you that have helped me come up with things.