How to beat a Lich

[Arpegius]

Well the party is made from a Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, and a Wizard-Magaambyan Arcanist we are going to face a powerful Lich so we were thinking on ways to defeat him, we thought of getting a Marut to help us but we still thinking what else would help us, any ideas?:smallconfused:

[Venger]

Well the party is made from a Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, and a Wizard-Magaambyan Arcanist we are going to face a powerful Lich so we were thinking on ways to defeat him, we thought of getting a Marut to help us but we still thinking what else would help us, any ideas?:smallconfused:

what level are you chaps?

I'm assuming 15+ if you can cast greater planar binding to sucker a marut into helping you fight the lich.

since you mentioned a Magaambyan Arcanist, I'm assuming you're playing PF (in which case I might suggest stating so in your thread title so people can give PF-only advice if applicable)

in any event, maruts are terrible backup to fight liches with. his fists of thunder and lightning don't do anything to a lich (immune to electricity and fort saves) and most of his offensive spells (inflict, chain lightning, circle of death) are similarly worthless

without that, you're left with his paltry base damage , and if you're fighting a spellcaster that's eligible for lich (CL 11+) he'll be able to beat the marut to death in short order using some orbs of x, unicorn arrows, hails of stone, etc which should have him in the junkpile in no time since he's only got 112 hit points (for a CR 15 monster!)

since you're playing pf, remember the lich has his cha to HP instead of con (a nonissue unless he's a sorcerer) so won't be as soft as normal undead

since your melee types are going to want to participate too, make sure they're protected from paralysis somehow (freedom of movement, etc) for when they go up to the lich and start bonking him so they aren't paralyzed by his touch

if your wizard is of the summoning bent, he can do way better than a marut if he wants to use planar ally. try something that grapples. unless your DM is cheating, the lich template only works on humanoids (alhoons/dracoliches aside ) so he'll be medium with a poor str, so will suck at grappling. this will take many of his spells offline since it's hard to cast while grappled.

your rogue needs to be able to affect undead somehow, so make sure he's got a greater truedeath crystal. grappled characters lose dex to AC for all characters they're not grappling with, so just get some huge monster with imp grab and a great str to hold the lich down and have the rogue stab him in the face while the rest of you do what you normally do in fights.

what specialty did the fighter pick? does he have a magic bludgeoning weapon so he'll be able to contribute? what's the paladin's normal role in combat?

I'll be able to give some more specific advice with this info, but all the rest stil holds true

[Juntao112]

Well the party is made from a Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, and a Wizard-Magaambyan Arcanist we are going to face a powerful Lich so we were thinking on ways to defeat him, we thought of getting a Marut to help us but we still thinking what else would help us, any ideas?:smallconfused:

What level is the party and what resources do they have access to?

[Arpegius]

thanks it is Pathfinder you`re right and its lvl 14-15, the role of the paladin is an Undead scourge more oriented to melee fighting than healing, the fighter is a twohanded fighter with an Earthbreaker +1 +(Impact)

[Juntao112]

Which character are you?

[Malachei]

Disintegrate, Polymorph Any Object, similar spells that target Fortitude and also work on objects.

And load Greater Dispel Magic, of course, and make sure to locate his Phylactery.

[Arpegius]

Which character are you?
Im the fighter >.<

[zimmerwald1915]

thanks it is Pathfinder
The "Magaambyan Arcanist" kinda gave that away. Speaking of that Magaambyan Arcanist, what's their spell list like?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea... it's the Wizard who will have the relevant tactics at level 15 against magical enemies. Sorry...

[Hyde]

Eh, pathfinder doesn't treat its fighters too badly- beatface a lich is well within their purview.

Anyway, at least rogues can sneak attack undead in PF, so you wont need to worry about special treatment there. Unfortunately, your paladin traded Aura of Justice (which would be tops) for Undead Annihilation. As cool as it sounds, the lich Probably has the will save to ignore it (DC 10+7+8... 25 tops?) it might be worth spamming anyway. In fact, it'd probably be a waste of the entire archetype not to.

For the fighter, I'm gonna have to echo the "Get immune to paralyze and grapple the sonofabitch" line. Or DON'T get immune to paralyze, grapple him, and then make the argument that because you're paralyzed, the lich remains grappled, regardless (this won't work, but it's worth a shot:smallbiggrin:).

Regardless, good luck.

[Juntao112]

For the fighter, I'm gonna have to echo the "Get immune to paralyze and grapple the sonofabitch" line. Or DON'T get immune to paralyze, grapple him, and then make the argument that because you're paralyzed, the lich remains grappled, regardless (this won't work, but it's worth a shot).
"Yeah, I'm stuck in position... with my hands wrapped around his throat."

But make sure the Lich doesn't have a ring of FoM before you grapple him.

[Gavinfoxx]

Pathfinder Fighters are okay at getting big numbers, and mediocre at combat maneuvers. What they can't do is generally manage a significant change in the tactical scope of what is going on and pre-plan useful tactics and combos and stuff... that's mostly the domain of spells.

[Shining Wrath]

Magebane boosts, if they work on any arcane caster like they do in 3.5, will help you annoy a lich.

The Truedeath Crystal is worth having on any melee character, as it allows you to crit an undead (even if you aren't backstabbing you may get lucky) and hey, 1D6 is 1D6. Also Ghost Touch in case he tries to go incorporeal.

For any caster, if you can put silence on them (hard to do to a lich), it messes with their world.

And let me re-emphasize: find the phylactery. If possible, FIRST. Pay whatever gold is required to your friendly local LG temple to have them scry it for you.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. Grapple isn't really a good plan. Probably the only decent contributions you could make is as a Flank Partner for the Rogue, and Readied Disruptions, which you could do at the same time. Just be like a Blue Player. Your entire turn consists of "My turn? Readied action, go." And when you see the lich try to cast anything pile on as much damage as you can to force a failure.

Unless you got a Silver Bullet in your magic item bag.

If you can port over 3rd edition stuff, you might want to look at Ravages just to punish the lich.

[Venger]

Yeah. Grapple isn't really a good plan. Probably the only decent contributions you could make is as a Flank Partner for the Rogue, and Readied Disruptions, which you could do at the same time. Just be like a Blue Player. Your entire turn consists of "My turn? Readied action, go." And when you see the lich try to cast anything pile on as much damage as you can to force a failure.

Unless you got a Silver Bullet in your magic item bag.

If you can port over 3rd edition stuff, you might want to look at Ravages just to punish the lich.

grapple isn't a good plan for the fighter, no, but don't rule it out entirely, that's what summoned monsters are for.

since you have a party of wizard/"cleric"/fighter/rogue, I assume your game isn't as different from the textbook as most of ours are, so the difficulty likely won't be as bad as we think it is

due to this, I don't think a lvl 15 NPC will have a will have a 40k item, even with double standard for items


Disintegrate, Polymorph Any Object, similar spells that target Fortitude and also work on objects.

And load Greater Dispel Magic, of course, and make sure to locate his Phylactery.

liches are immune to polymorph effects.

but nothing bad about disintegrate. that's good no matter what. do PF liches have spell resistance?

beware though: everyone knows to disintegrate undead so shoot a tracer round (read: ping him with scorching ray or something) to see if he has a spell turning effect up and/or available to see if he casts or tries to cast that in subsequent round. the last thing you need is your textbook wizard dying of a fort save because of a lack of a headband of conscious effort

[Acanous]

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/b2b/b50/3a5/resized/uncle-meme-generator-magic-must-defeat-magic-931311.jpg

Your Wizard is going to be doing most of the heavy lifting. If the Rogue has UMD ranks, he can help. Paladin is mostly on heal duty until the illusions and traps have been dealt with and the Lich's defenses are down.

You? Try to help with positioning. Set up flanks, deal with summoned monsters and minions. When the Lich is vulnerable, charge and Power Attack. Keep him threatened.

AFTER the lich is dealt with, you can sunder the Philactery. After the Wizard locates it.

[Malachei]

liches are immune to polymorph effects.

Really? Where in the Pathfinder Lich description does it say that?

(PF Undead are immune to polymorph, unless it also works on objects, which Polymorph Any Object does)



but nothing bad about disintegrate. that's good no matter what. do PF liches have spell resistance?

beware though: everyone knows to disintegrate undead so shoot a tracer round (read: ping him with scorching ray or something) to see if he has a spell turning effect up and/or available to see if he casts or tries to cast that in subsequent round. the last thing

Spell Turning does not apply to Effect spells, which rays are.

[Venger]

Your Wizard is going to be doing most of the heavy lifting. If the Rogue has UMD ranks, he can help. Paladin is mostly on heal duty until the illusions and traps have been dealt with and the Lich's defenses are down.

You? Try to help with positioning. Set up flanks, deal with summoned monsters and minions. When the Lich is vulnerable, charge and Power Attack. Keep him threatened.

while this is of course inevitably true, I assumed the thread was about what he could contribute anyway. your suggestions are good

OP, could you tell us about your build? what did you choose to specialize in?



Really? Where in the Pathfinder Lich description does it say that?

(PF Undead are immune to polymorph, unless it also works on objects, which Polymorph Any Object does)

Spell Turning does not apply to Effect spells, which rays are.

I do not see anything at all about polymorphying (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/lich.html)

as I mentioned earlier, I don't play PF and as a result, don't know all the changes they made to stuff.

undead are normally immune to fort saves unless they work on objects. while PaO would technically work, I wouldn't recommend it for a few reasons:

1) it's very seldom allowed in actual play. OP's DM may well have banned it
2) the DM may be disappointed if his monster goes down to one SoD by the party wizard
3) the rest of the party will certainly be disappointed by not getting to do anything
4) if the DM does fiat that the lich makes his save (or if the lich actually, y'know, makes his save) the wizard has expended an 8th that could well have been used to summon an elder elemental, frost giant, or hezrou (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster#8th-level) to grapple the bejeezus out of the lich while the melee party members kick him in the teeth

rays target one enemy. I'm pretty sure that counts as a targeted spell. is "effect" and "targeted spell" defined someplace? I can't find it under the casting spells section.

[Shining Wrath]

while this is of course inevitably true, I assumed the thread was about what he could contribute anyway. your suggestions are good

OP, could you tell us about your build? what did you choose to specialize in?




I do not see anything at all about polymorphying (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/lich.html)

as I mentioned earlier, I don't play PF and as a result, don't know all the changes they made to stuff.

undead are normally immune to fort saves unless they work on objects. while PaO would technically work, I wouldn't recommend it for a few reasons:

1) it's very seldom allowed in actual play. OP's DM may well have banned it
2) the DM may be disappointed if his monster goes down to one SoD by the party wizard
3) the rest of the party will certainly be disappointed by not getting to do anything
4) if the DM does fiat that the lich makes his save (or if the lich actually, y'know, makes his save) the wizard has expended an 8th that could well have been used to summon an elder elemental, frost giant, or hezrou (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster#8th-level) to grapple the bejeezus out of the lich while the melee party members kick him in the teeth

rays target one enemy. I'm pretty sure that counts as a targeted spell. is "effect" and "targeted spell" defined someplace? I can't find it under the casting spells section.

PF on creature type undead (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html#_undead)


Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

Baleful Polymorph (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/balefulPolymorph.html#_baleful-polymorph) grants a Fortitude save.

[Hyde]

Effect

Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile it can move regardless of the spell’s range.
Ray

Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at.

If a ray spell has a duration, it’s the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.

If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. from the 3.5 SRD. pretty confident PF's is the same. Also, while I haven't represented it very well here, "Ray" is a subhead for "Effect"

[Malachei]

I do not see anything at all about polymorphying (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/lich.html)

Exactly. PAO would work.

(Note that in 3.5, it would bot, because other than PF Liches, 3.5 Liches have explicit Polymorph immunity beyond the "also works on objects" clause of the undead type)


as I mentioned earlier, I don't play PF and as a result, don't know all the changes they made to stuff.

No problem.


1) it's very seldom allowed in actual play. OP's DM may well have banned it

We know little about the houserules of the party.


2) the DM may be disappointed if his monster goes down to one SoD by the party wizard

Now we have to decide whether to disappoint the DM or the players. If the DM dislikes one-shotted monsters, he should think about banning spells that one-shot stuff.


3) the rest of the party will certainly be disappointed by not getting to do anything

Well, we know little about if and when the players in this group are disappointed and if they'd rather be slaughtered by a lich than one-shotting it.


4) if the DM does fiat that the lich makes his save

You mean a DM, and... cheating? :smallbiggrin:



rays target one enemy. I'm pretty sure that counts as a targeted spell. is "effect" and "targeted spell" defined someplace? I can't find it under the casting spells section.

I'm afraid you're wrong. See http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Aiming-a-Spell ... Works the same in 3.5 by the way.

[Venger]

PF on creature type undead (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html#_undead)


Baleful Polymorph (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/balefulPolymorph.html#_baleful-polymorph) grants a Fortitude save.

d8s plus cha, okay

3/4 BA? uhhhh all right
4 skill points/lvl? weird.

it appears as though they lack any resistance to SA/crits at all. I thought that PF undead were merely resistant to SAs rather than being immune. this does mean the rogue will be able to contribute more easily, which is good.

no one was talking about baleful polymorph. we were talking about polymorph any object (since it works on objects). I was under the impression that liches retained their immunity to polymorph spells being used against them offensively, but have found I was incorrect.


from the 3.5 SRD. pretty confident PF's is the same. Also, while I haven't represented it very well here, "Ray" is a subhead for "Effect"

that's very weird. thank for the explanation.


Exactly. PAO would work.

(Note that in 3.5, it would bot, because other than PF Liches, 3.5 Liches have explicit Polymorph immunity beyond the "also works on objects" clause of the undead type)
right, that was my point of confusion



1) We know little about the houserules of the party.

2) Now we have to decide whether to disappoint the DM or the players. If the DM dislikes one-shotted monsters, he should think about banning spells that one-shot stuff.

3)Well, we know little about if and when the players in this group are disappointed and if they'd rather be slaughtered by a lich than one-shotting it.

4)You mean a DM, and... cheating? :smallbiggrin:

1) that's true. this was meant to ask OP if the spell is allowed and/or one of the spells his party wizard has in his spellbook (if that wasn't clear, it could have been worded better)

2) well, personally, I like to come to D&D games to do stuff, not just watch the wizard play. I feel reasonably confident saying that OP's players (and he himself) likely feel the same way. there's a reason that all the wizard guides out there aren't about picking the right spells to win, but are about picking the right spells to help your friends win

3) again, this is something I meant to be a question. how does the party feel?

4) well, I know it would never happen, but wanted to include it for completeness's sake

in all seriousness though, if a dm statted out a final boss like a lich and a player oneshotted it with a SoD, I think that we could expect (even if we didn't agree with it) for him to fake a pass on his save so he can show off the cool powers/spls it has


I'm afraid you're wrong. See http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Aiming-a-Spell ... Works the same in 3.5 by the way.

so I am. spell turning doesn't work on:
AoEs
Rays
"Effects"

it's kind of a crappy spell, then. at least it explains why one doesn't see it more often

[Malachei]

4) well, I know it would never happen, but wanted to include it for completeness's sake

in all seriousness though, if a dm statted out a final boss like a lich and a player oneshotted it with a SoD, I think that we could expect (even if we didn't agree with it) for him to fake a pass on his save so he can show off the cool powers/spls it has

I never pull any punches, either way. If I did, I'd feel to cheat the players by not providing a fair, challenging game.

IMO, DM's who can't stand their monster is one-shotted are too focused on following their screenplay. It's not a problem if your monster doesn't have enough time in the spotlight. You have a new one next adventure.

But once you lose credibility and players' trust, it's very hard to regain it. Besides, as a player, a few of my most satisfying and memorable sessions involved one-shotting monsters.




so I am. spell turning doesn't work on:
AoEs
Rays
"Effects"

it's kind of a crappy spell, then. at least it explains why one doesn't see it more often

Indeed. Plus it turns only 7-10 spell levels. I'd rather carry Ray Deflection. Especially as a Lich :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

I never pull any punches, either way. If I did, I'd feel to cheat the players by not providing a fair, challenging game.

IMO, DM's who can't stand their monster is one-shotted are too focused on following their screenplay. It's not a problem if your monster doesn't have enough time in the spotlight. You have a new one next adventure.

But once you lose credibility and players' trust, it's very hard to regain it. Besides, as a player, a few of my most satisfying and memorable sessions involved one-shotting monsters.

Indeed. Plus it turns only 7-10 spell levels. I'd rather carry Ray Deflection. Especially as a Lich :smallbiggrin:

personally, I don't believe in it either. my philosophy is that if you find that you're falling in love with an NPC or monster so much that you know you'd cheat to give him spotlight time, stop sinking time into him.

yeah, exactly. nothing like slapping that adult blue with a shivering touch, watching him fall for 7d6 and get CDGed by the rogue.

I would too. or if I wanted to, y'know, actually protect myself from pcs, I'd spend a little money on a scroll of greater spell immunity for disintegrate (and whatever else you care about)

or if you really wanted to kick things old-school, a ring of spell-battle. hope the wizard has ray deflection up.

[Malachei]

yeah, exactly. nothing like slapping that adult blue with a shivering touch, watching him fall for 7d6 and get CDGed by the rogue.

Hey, at least there's something the rogue is good for :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, Shivering Touch is banned in my games, of course. As is Ray of Stupidity, by the way.

[Venger]

Hey, at least there's something the rogue is good for :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, Shivering Touch is banned in my games, of course. As is Ray of Stupidity, by the way.
might want to add moon bolt and ego whip to that list, since your goal seems to be "no dealing ability damage on a successful save"

[Malachei]

might want to add moon bolt and ego whip to that list, since your goal seems to be "no dealing ability damage on a successful save"

No. The goal is to avoid winning encounters with low-level spells against a large number of high-CR monsters just because they happen to have one weak stat.

Oh, and both spells I banned do not allow a save.

[Venger]

No. The goal is to avoid winning encounters with low-level spells against a large number of high-CR monsters just because they happen to have one weak stat.

Oh, and both spells I banned do not allow a save.
I am aware of this

in that case, leave moon bolt and ego whip untouched, they are wonderful spells (or powers as is the case with ego whip)

[Malachei]

I would too. or if I wanted to, y'know, actually protect myself from pcs, I'd spend a little money on a scroll of greater spell immunity for disintegrate (and whatever else you care about)

or if you really wanted to kick things old-school, a ring of spell-battle. hope the wizard has ray deflection up.

Nice.

As a lich, in a strict RAW game, I'd actually spend a little money on a bag of holding, put my phylactery inside and rip the bag apart ("All contents are lost forever") ... or add a portable hole ("Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost").

Then I'd grant the PCs a really easy kill just to learn their tactics when I come back to hunt them down 1d10 days later.

[Venger]

Nice.

As a lich, in a strict RAW game, I'd actually spend a little money on a bag of holding, put my phylactery inside and rip the bag apart ("All contents are lost forever") ... or add a portable hole ("Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost").

Then I'd grant the PCs a really easy kill just to learn their tactics when I come back to hunt them down 1d10 days later.

...and then you reveal you were just an astral projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) the whole time

oh god, a strict RAW game. I can't imagine how horrifying that would be

[dascarletm]

This is how my team beat a lich:

You can adapt this to your team, but we had the wizard devote to counterspelling, while the barbarian and other bruisers ran up and grappled it. If it has an item of freedom of movement which the MM stock one doesn't, sunder it. Locked him down to a pin (enlarge person helps this) and smashed him to death. Finding the phylacitary is a different story...

[Eric Tolle]

Everyone should have access to flight and boosts to Will saves. Freedom of Movement would be good too. Go through the spell list of an 18th level mage, and consider the worst he could do- then plan for that.

[The Viscount]

I second the excellent recommendation to seek out and destroy the phylactery before you fight the lich, if possible. If you destroy the phylactery, the lich cannot make another one. If you fight the lich first, you're under the gun while you hunt down its phylactery and ever day could be the day it returns.

[Shining Wrath]

Nice.

As a lich, in a strict RAW game, I'd actually spend a little money on a bag of holding, put my phylactery inside and rip the bag apart ("All contents are lost forever") ... or add a portable hole ("Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost").

Then I'd grant the PCs a really easy kill just to learn their tactics when I come back to hunt them down 1d10 days later.

Hmmm.


An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death. (D20SRD)

If the item in which you have stored your life force is forever lost, I don't think you reappear. Exactly how is your life force making it back to the Prime Material Plane from the extradimensional void?


Everyone should have access to flight and boosts to Will saves. Freedom of Movement would be good too. Go through the spell list of an 18th level mage, and consider the worst he could do- then plan for that.

The worst an 18th level mage can do is very, very bad. You want to plan for ways to not let the lich do those things.

[Malachei]

Hmmm.

If the item in which you have stored your life force is forever lost, I don't think you reappear. Exactly how is your life force making it back to the Prime Material Plane from the extradimensional void?

That's why I've pointed out "in a strict RAW game." Because in the RAW, it says it is forever lost, but nowhere does it say that means it is destroyed. There's also nothing in the rules that says the life force needs to travel across the planes or this would result in any limitation. For that matter, there's also nothing that implicates any way to block the phylactery's effect. We might agree that this might be RAI, but it is not specified in the RAW.

[AWiz_Abroad]

I don't think I can add substance here, but as soon as I saw the title, I had to add this:

Step 1: Get Drumsticks
Step 2: Give Drumsticks to Fighter
Step 3: Fighter Starts playing the lich like a snaredrum
Step 4: ??????
Step 5: Profit.

[Shining Wrath]

That's why I've pointed out "in a strict RAW game." Because in the RAW, it says it is forever lost, but nowhere does it say that means it is destroyed. There's also nothing in the rules that says the life force needs to travel across the planes or this would result in any limitation. For that matter, there's also nothing that implicates any way to block the phylactery's effect. We might agree that this might be RAI, but it is not specified in the RAW.

How can the phylactery be forever lost but not the life force contained within it? How can the lich come back if his life force is forever lost? I don't think RAW allows this.

Anyway, if your idea of fun as a DM is an lich that keeps coming back trying to kill the PCs over and over and over and ... (repeat for infinity) ... and over until he beats the PCs, I may not want to join your table:smallsmile: Unless your lich is an Agrajag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_characters_from_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_ the_Galaxy#Agrajag) type lich played for comic relief.

Plus, liches as a group being geniuses, if this would work they'd ALL do it, and it would be noted in the MM entry. /desperate RAI attempt

[Vaz]

When you lose your keys, are they destroyed? No.

A bag of holding is simply an extradimensional space with only one way in. When that entrance is blocked off, there is no way within. While it is forever lost and cannot be found, that does not mean the phylactery is destroyed.

Hence strict raw = that way lies madness.

[magwaaf]

you have a rogue, this is pathfinder. sneak attack works against undead.

the fighter needs to just keep beating on it like a fighter does to everything. if you cangive him bindsense that'd be good since liches like invisibility.

the wizard... it's a wizard, they can do anything... just don't use lightning.

my group mixes pf with 3.5 so i have armor with soulfire on it from exalted deeds. that helps alot vs liches

[Venger]

When you lose your keys, are they destroyed? No.

A bag of holding is simply an extradimensional space with only one way in. When that entrance is blocked off, there is no way within. While it is forever lost and cannot be found, that does not mean the phylactery is destroyed.

Hence strict raw = that way lies madness.

roll randomly to determine where you respawn.

oh dear.

[LTwerewolf]

roll randomly to determine where you respawn.

oh dear.

I'd assume you respawn near your phylactery, which is inside an extra dimensional space (not really a problem because plane-shifting), with no supply of oxygen (still not a problem, you're undead).

[Shining Wrath]

I'd assume you respawn near your phylactery, which is inside an extra dimensional space (not really a problem because plane-shifting), with no supply of oxygen (still not a problem, you're undead).

An extra-dimensional space with only one entrance, which has been destroyed. If there were a way in, the contents of a destroyed bag of holding would not be lost forever - they'd be lost except for those who can plane shift.

If there's no way to plane shift into the space to recover, e.g., a +5 sword lost because Elan put a portable hole into the bag of holding, then there is no way for a respawning lich to come back out.

Serves him right.

[LTwerewolf]

There's no way to get in, but there's a way to be in. You're not entering, you're being recreated there.

[ericgrau]

In Pathfinder can't casters still cast while grappled? That's the main problem with it I'd see. At NPC WBL a ring of FoM would be impractical.

Make sure your weapon is a magic bludgeoning weapon to overcome his DR, or a high enough +X (I forget how that works in PF). Make sure the cleric paladin has remove paralysis. If he's low on spell slots then get some scrolls. You might want to get an item that grants flight, just in case. Or at least a potion of fly. Maybe have the wizard prepare it but that takes too much time; better if you have it yourself. The wizard should get see invisibility extended or recast to 8+ hours per day and glitterdust in case the bugger tries to conceal himself.

Locate object could be a way to find the phylactery, just in case it isn't warded against detection. Even if it is warded try again a day later when most wards expire. That plus search everywhere and look for plot clues.

[Shining Wrath]

There's no way to get in, but there's a way to be in. You're not entering, you're being recreated there.

I believe, though, that once reincarnated there is no way back OUT - so you're trapped in a bag of holding-sized universe with no exit. No one can come in; no one can get out; and as a lich you cannot die of starvation or asphyxiation or old age. I suppose you could destroy your phylactery, then yourself, using your spells; you'd certainly have enough time for research.

[Malachei]

RAI might imply that:

The phylactery forms the lich at the site of the phylactery
The soul travels from the phylactery to the place where the lich has been killed, or some other place


But both are assumptions. Again, RAW is completely silent on the process and the location of the lich's return. In particular, it is simply specified that the process of returning is not possible when the phylactery has been destroyed. RAW does not specify anything about where the lich reforms and whether it travels from the phylactery. RAW-wise, there's no answers.

The term "lost" is also not specified, and does not necessarily imply that an object is destroyed, or that there is no way out from that location, just that it is "lost", in that its location, which was formerly known, is now not known and cannot be determined ("forever lost").

I'm not arguing that this is the way it should be handled in-game. I'm just saying that a strict RAW game does not specify the limitations one might want to interpret in a RAI context.

[Venger]

In Pathfinder can't casters still cast while grappled? That's the main problem with it I'd see. At NPC WBL a ring of FoM would be impractical.

kinda (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Grappled) similar to 3.5, but the DC will likely be much more difficult against a halfway decent grappler (polar bear, giant octopus, etc) since the DC adds the enemy's CMB onto the check.


Locate object could be a way to find the phylactery, just in case it isn't warded against detection. Even if it is warded try again a day later when most wards expire. That plus search everywhere and look for plot clues.
why wouldn't you protect your phylactery against detection? how easy it is to find a phylactery's just DM fiat. if he throws a lich at you, he'll throw a breadcrumb trail to the phylactery soon if he's a one-off, or you'll find clues over time if he's your end boss.

[Evard]

Magebane boosts, if they work on any arcane caster like they do in 3.5, will help you annoy a lich.

The Truedeath Crystal is worth having on any melee character, as it allows you to crit an undead (even if you aren't backstabbing you may get lucky) and hey, 1D6 is 1D6. Also Ghost Touch in case he tries to go incorporeal.

For any caster, if you can put silence on them (hard to do to a lich), it messes with their world.

And let me re-emphasize: find the phylactery. If possible, FIRST. Pay whatever gold is required to your friendly local LG temple to have them scry it for you.

You never cast silence on an enemy, you cast it on a rock, give said rock to BSF who then charges and stays next to the enemy.

You may have to buff said fighter tho, so he can keep up with the lich (flight/paralysis sucks when you are a fighter)

[Shining Wrath]

You never cast silence on an enemy, you cast it on a rock, give said rock to BSF who then charges and stays next to the enemy.

You may have to buff said fighter tho, so he can keep up with the lich (flight/paralysis sucks when you are a fighter)

Note that I said "PUT" silence on them, rather than "CAST" silence on them. Casting spells which can be resisted on a lich is a path to fail. Will save + spell resistance, if any. And base class almost certainly had good Will.

[Ravenica]

I believe, though, that once reincarnated there is no way back OUT - so you're trapped in a bag of holding-sized universe with no exit. No one can come in; no one can get out; and as a lich you cannot die of starvation or asphyxiation or old age. I suppose you could destroy your phylactery, then yourself, using your spells; you'd certainly have enough time for research.

Except there's no RAW support for no way out. RAW a wish or gate within will get you out, and said lich should be able to cast both, and if he's got half a brain will have stashed a spellbook there too.

Lost forever and no entrance won't affect regeneration as you are already inside (you regenerate from the lifeforce when your old form is destroyed)

and lets face it, lost forever is the perfect place to hide your lifeforce, the main reason you won't see many lich's trying it is that most would be afraid to take the risk.

That being said lost forever is not immune to wish... so even that method does not keep your phylactry 100% safe

edit: Malachei RAW actually does specify where a lich regenerates in pathfinder. "Rejuvenation (Su): When a lich is destroyed, its phylactery (which is generally hidden by the lich in a safe place far from where it chooses to dwell) immediately begins to rebuild the undead spellcaster's body nearby. This process takes 1d10 days—if the body is destroyed before that time passes, the phylactery merely starts the process anew. After this time passes, the lich wakens fully healed (albeit without any gear it left behind on its old body), usually with a burning need for revenge against those who previously destroyed it." The phylactry rebuilds the body nearby. Sentence subject "phylactry rebuilding body" sentence predicate "nearby". The body is rebuilt nearby to the phylactry.

[Evard]

Note that I said "PUT" silence on them, rather than "CAST" silence on them. Casting spells which can be resisted on a lich is a path to fail. Will save + spell resistance, if any. And base class almost certainly had good Will.

Saying PUT it on the lich is the same as saying CASTING it on the lich. You need to be specific or someone may take your advice the wrong way.

I just wanted to make sure the OP knew to PUT/CAST silence on another object/person and have them go up to the lich.

:smallsigh:

[LTwerewolf]

I believe, though, that once reincarnated there is no way back OUT - so you're trapped in a bag of holding-sized universe with no exit. No one can come in; no one can get out; and as a lich you cannot die of starvation or asphyxiation or old age. I suppose you could destroy your phylactery, then yourself, using your spells; you'd certainly have enough time for research.

Why wouldn't there be? A simple gate spell can send you wherever you want to go. You don't have to know where you are in order to do that. Lost doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As long as you exist and can cast spells, and of course can cast gate, you can go wherever. You just have no means of getting back until the next time your body is destroyed.

[Malachei]

I believe, though, that once reincarnated there is no way back OUT - so you're trapped in a bag of holding-sized universe with no exit. No one can come in; no one can get out; and as a lich you cannot die of starvation or asphyxiation or old age. I suppose you could destroy your phylactery, then yourself, using your spells; you'd certainly have enough time for research.

As I said previously, RAW does not specify any limitations on this. "Lost" does not imply "no way out" or "destroyed". Hence, once you're in the space, you can gate or plane shift or wish or whatever yourself home.


edit: Malachei RAW actually does specify where a lich regenerates in pathfinder. "Rejuvenation (Su): When a lich is destroyed, its phylactery (which is generally hidden by the lich in a safe place far from where it chooses to dwell) immediately begins to rebuild the undead spellcaster's body nearby. This process takes 1d10 days—if the body is destroyed before that time passes, the phylactery merely starts the process anew. After this time passes, the lich wakens fully healed (albeit without any gear it left behind on its old body), usually with a burning need for revenge against those who previously destroyed it." The phylactry rebuilds the body nearby. Sentence subject "phylactry rebuilding body" sentence predicate "nearby". The body is rebuilt nearby to the phylactry.

Yes, I was taking this more general and away from the PF referece only, and referring to 3.5 in this case. 3.5 does not specify it, but you're completely right about PF. Thanks for pointing it out!