Manyfanged Dagger

[Morphie]

So, there's this weapon on Serpent Kingdoms that is a dagger +1 and it deals x4 damage on any hit and x5 on a critical hit. I've seen many people in forums using it as a weapon property whose cost is 30.000 (since the dagger+1 costs 2.302gp). But wouldn't it be balanced to see it's ability as a +3 enhancement, since a +4 weapon is 32.000 + mw cost?

As a DM, I would straight up rule the whole thing out. The whole book stinks of cheese. But would there be a way to fix this?

[Diarmuid]

The problem with calling it a +4 weapon property is that you would still need a minimum +1 weapon to add that property to.

[Person_Man]

I would only allow it as a unique dagger (that you had to quest for, and not make). Allowing it as a weapon property provides massive damage for a very low cost if you allowed it to be used on a weapon that can be used with Power Attack.

[Averis Vol]

I would only allow it as a unique dagger (that you had to quest for, and not make). Allowing it as a weapon property provides massive damage for a very low cost if you allowed it to be used on a weapon that can be used with Power Attack.

Seconded, the only time it has been legitimately allowed by our group was during an ancestral rights quest for our troglodyte rogue; and man, he worked his ass of for it.

[Morphie]

I would only allow it as a unique dagger (that you had to quest for, and not make). Allowing it as a weapon property provides massive damage for a very low cost if you allowed it to be used on a weapon that can be used with Power Attack.

I agree with this, but if I were to increase its enhancement bonus, how much would it cost, an extra 6.000 (from +1 to +2) or 18.000 (from +4 to +5)?

[Vaz]

"Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor; major creation, Price 32,302 gp; Weight 1 lb."

Um, that's how much it costs.

A Masterwork dagger is 302gp. That makes it 32000gp. 32K gp is a +4 weapon, and as it's a +1 weapon anyway, that makes it a +3 ability.

Note that it modifies the weapon damage, NOT the overall damage. So a dagger deals 4d3, rather than d3, and 5d3 on a 19-29 rather than 2d3. It does not mean your +2d6 Sneak attack now deals +8d6.

By the time your able to afford it, you're going to want to be able to far and above that level of damage, and the magic weapons abilities are better used for more than just pure damage. On a greatsword, its +21 damage on each strike, fair enough; so +82 a turn. However, typical uberchargers by level 8 is already dealing 150-250 damage minimum. While by level 10, you can afford it, there's usually better things out there than JUST pure damage, which is a TO exercise (especially as a will save or die/lose instant wins a Barbarian esque.

[Morphie]

Actually the dagger deals 1d4 damage if it's made for medium creatures. The way I read "x4 damage" is 4x the 1d4 +Enhancement+ Str bonus + Weapon Spec. Dmg. x5 if it is a critical hit. Otherwise I think they would have just written "it deals 4d4 + 4 + Str bonus, if any, on a normal hit"
Sneak Attack damage is always added last, so the additional dice don't multiply.

And what about creatures immune to critical hits?

I just can't see any hope for this, how they didn't errata it it's just beyond me...

[Vaz]

I've put my book away now, and I can't be bothered to get it out.

However, it's "the dagger does quadruple damage" on a normal hit. Therefore, it's 4d4+etc, not 4(d4+etc).

Creatures immune to critical hits don't take additional damage from a critical hit, it's fairly simple.

As for how they didn't errata it, why should they? It does exactly what it states on the tin, and only comes into issues when you try to do something with it that it a) by RAW, cannot be done, and b) wasn't intended to be done.

By RAW, it would have no effect either, as it states "the dagger does...", which if applied to your favourite weapon would still have an effect only triggered on a dagger.

[Starbuck_II]

I've put my book away now, and I can't be bothered to get it out.

However, it's "the dagger does quadruple damage" on a normal hit. Therefore, it's 4d4+etc, not 4(d4+etc).

Creatures immune to critical hits don't take additional damage from a critical hit, it's fairly simple.

As for how they didn't errata it, why should they? It does exactly what it states on the tin, and only comes into issues when you try to do something with it that it a) by RAW, cannot be done, and b) wasn't intended to be done.

By RAW, it would have no effect either, as it states "the dagger does...", which if applied to your favourite weapon would still have an effect only triggered on a dagger.
Why not state weapon damage is multiplied by 4? Then it means (1d4)x4 + X.

That solves issue because you always apply str with weapons so if the dagger deals x4 then it must mean (1d4+X) x4.

[Douglas]

There is a general rule right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage) that multiplying damage, for any reason, includes all modifiers in the multiplication. The Manyfanged Dagger would have to be quite specific in order to override that, and it isn't. Therefore modifiers (including enhancement bonus, strength bonus, weapon specialization, power attack, and so on) get quadrupled.

Edit: The exact wording, aside from some fluff description, is

A manyfang dagger thus deals quadruple damage on each successful hit, or quintuple damage on a critical hit.
Not "quadruple base damage", or "quadruple weapon damage", but simply "quadruple damage". As per the general rule, that quadruples everything except bonus dice.

On a side note, even without being able to customize it with a different base weapon or more weapon properties, I think this item is clearly broken, and I would not allow it in my games. The sheer magnitude of damage made possible by quadrupling all static bonuses is ridiculous, far beyond anything else I am aware of for melee that wouldn't just combo with it for even more insanity.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hmmm... Manyfanged Dagger + Diamond Nightmare Strike = Profit?

[Morphie]

Hmmm... Manyfanged Dagger + Diamond Nightmare Strike = Profit?

Or a flying book from the DM. And a giant boulder after.

[Necroticplague]

Hmmm... Manyfanged Dagger + Diamond Nightmare Strike = Profit?

Sadly, no:

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sadly, no:

Not quite as fantastic... but it's still *8 damage (x4 and x4).

[Douglas]

Not quite as fantastic... but it's still *8 damage (x4 and x4).
Just x7. Only the amount above x1 adds.

[herrhauptmann]

Not quite as fantastic... but it's still *8 damage (x4 and x4).
D&D math doesn't work like real math.
Doubling a double is a triple.
Tripling something that was doubled (or doubling a triple) is a quadruple.
Tripling a triple is a quintuple.

[Curmudgeon]

The abuse potential is pretty impressive. Let's say you start with a Whisper Gnome Rogue. A Medium Manyfang Dagger is going to be a 1-handed weapon for you. You'll take a -2 size penalty to attacks, but you're now allowed to use it 2-handed and get double Power Attack ratio; that then gets quadrupled. You'll add the normal, unmultiplied sneak attack dice, but Craven bonus sneak attack damage will also be quadrupled. Add Knowledge Devotion for another static bonus, also quadrupled. Dip into Cleric and pick up Law Devotion and you'll get another static bonus, also quadrupled.

Your Small Rogue with a Manyfang Dagger is going to force a massive damage check on every hit, even if they roll the minimum damage.

[Douglas]

Dip Swordsage and take Shadow Blade to add your dex bonus too. Quadrupled.

[GrimoireM]

Well, if you want to get fancy, use the spell Whirling Blade (Or a wand of it) with the dagger as your focus. You now get to obliterate all enemies in a 60 ft line, for that extra schwing.

Oh, and the other reason you don't allow Manyfanged to be a weapon property is Scorpion Kama. :smallbiggrin:

If you play a Factotum going Iaijutsu Master, consider a wand of the above spell whenever you need to nova for up to 36*(1d6+ Cha Mod) damage on a target out of reach.

[Averis Vol]

The abuse potential is pretty impressive. Let's say you start with a Whisper Gnome Rogue. A Medium Manyfang Dagger is going to be a 1-handed weapon for you. You'll take a -2 size penalty to attacks, but you're now allowed to use it 2-handed and get double Power Attack ratio; that then gets quadrupled. You'll add the normal, unmultiplied sneak attack dice, but Craven bonus sneak attack damage will also be quadrupled. Add Knowledge Devotion for another static bonus, also quadrupled. Dip into Cleric and pick up Law Devotion and you'll get another static bonus, also quadrupled.

Your Small Rogue with a Manyfang Dagger is going to force a massive damage check on every hit, even if they roll the minimum damage.

wouldn't it be relatively a shortsword? because 1d4 is the damage of a small sized one. Daggers start off in the tiny size category for medium creatures, so even if you go one size down it would still be a light weapon, not one handed.

Even so, without power attack, you can pump great damage. if you play by the rules of adding enhancements to existing weapons you can just throw on colliding for a static +5 damage that would get quadrupled. Pair that with insightful strike and shadow hand then boom, an extra......lot of damage.

[Curmudgeon]

wouldn't it be relatively a shortsword?
No.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A dagger and a short sword are both light weapons. Bumping to the next size category up means altering from light to one-handed.

[Averis Vol]

No.
A dagger and a short sword are both light weapons. Bumping to the next size category up means altering from light to one-handed.

huh, very well then.