3.5 pikes and hoplite spears

[hymer]

Dear Playgrounders!
What weapons do you use if and when you want to portray something like the lowly pike of medieval warfare or the lances or spears wielded by Greek hoplites?

[SilverLeaf167]

Based on what I know of those weapons, a longspear seems to be the closest fit.
(I am so gonna get ripped to pieces by the local weaponry geeks :smallbiggrin:)

[hymer]

I hope we can entice some of them to join the conversation, certainly, but I also hope we can keep the violence down to a minimum. :smallsmile: Thanks for the suggestion.

I think longspear suits the pike rather well, in that it's a simple weapon (you don't have to be a professional soldier to be proficient), piercing, has reach, and is wielded with two hands. I believe that's pikey enough, but if someone has better options I'd be happy to hear them.
The hoplite spears are harder to find an equivalent to, though. The dory seems to have been a onehanded piercing reach weapon.

[JusticeZero]

I just use a spear. 1h martial weapon. Stab and board is the normal way to use them, after all. Using a spear with two hands is only for dealing with animals. You can use a dagger with two hands, too, and I don't see it on the 2h weapons list.
As far as pikes, longspear works. The real pikes are 12-18' long, but once you're using a reach weapon, I don't know how much it should affect the stats to make it even longer; a reach out to 15' may or may not make it an exotic weapon. I try not to have pikemen a lot, since apparently nobody has figured out how to actually get a pike formation to work in recreation outside of a parade. Whenever they try, the other side stops outside the pike line, pushes the pike out of the way, walks up and starts braining the pikemen. Maybe the pikemen are actually just in the second line? Makes no sense. There's lots of stuff on dueling with them though. Might have been dealing with a specialized tactic.

[JusticeZero]

Here's how i'd probably build a pikeman, based on what I know:

Give them a REALLY long spear. 1d8 X3 should be fine. These things hit 15' out, so two empty squares in between them and their target. Standard rules for threatened space should work fine. Give these guys Combat Reflexes and they can really turn a charge into a blender. Which is arguably the point. A normal attacker will stop at the threatened space, then work their way in, taking hits from each rank as they go, but as they work their way in, your first rank will drop the pike and draw a battle axe or shortsword, and maybe a buckler, and switch to melee. The pike is only going to be useful for that one round, and it might be parried or whatever on that round. If the attackers are stupid, that's one heck of a round. If it's other pikemen, they'll stop at range and fence a bit, then maybe drop pike and close. The counter to them is to just start Sundering away, which probably looks something like binding the pike up and parrying it down into the ground, then stepping on it. Disarms work too.

[GnomeGninjas]

Dragon Compendium has the Awl Pike. 2 handed with 15 ft. reach.

[LTwerewolf]

I just use a spear. 1h martial weapon. Stab and board is the normal way to use them, after all. Using a spear with two hands is only for dealing with animals. You can use a dagger with two hands, too, and I don't see it on the 2h weapons list.
As far as pikes, longspear works. The real pikes are 12-18' long, but once you're using a reach weapon, I don't know how much it should affect the stats to make it even longer; a reach out to 15' may or may not make it an exotic weapon. I try not to have pikemen a lot, since apparently nobody has figured out how to actually get a pike formation to work in recreation outside of a parade. Whenever they try, the other side stops outside the pike line, pushes the pike out of the way, walks up and starts braining the pikemen. Maybe the pikemen are actually just in the second line? Makes no sense. There's lots of stuff on dueling with them though. Might have been dealing with a specialized tactic.


First line generally used shields and one-handed spears. They also had secondary weapons (such as the xiphos, a short sword used for piercing). Second line used two handed. The front line's job was the phalanx, more to protect everyone than to blend their enemies. The second line was the one doing all the damage.

Good pikemen didn't need too much defending, but there were still generally more than one line of them.

[Fouredged Sword]

Pikes worked really well in the combat situation they where built for - stopping mounted charges.

The segment of combat that saw the pike in massed combat had three distinct units in the field.

Pike units - These units stopped horsemen and formed walls of pointy sticks.

Archers - These are units that are equipped with ranged weapons and shoot the lines of pike to kill them and break a hole for horsemen to punch through

Mounted units - These units did the mopping up and killing of archers. They let the charge of horses trample anything in their path.

Pike countered Mounted
Mounted countered Archers
Archers countered Pike

Now, as things advanced the archery side just kinda took over. First you had the longbow and the use of defensive tactics to fight mounted units with just archers, then the musket and rifle eventually gained enough rate of fire to break apart a charge even without defensive structures. Pike units became obsolete and mounted units couldn't compete. The age of the mounted knight ended and slowly moved into the bloody lines of ranged troops firing at each other from lines that is definitive of the next era of war. Then trenches came into style around the civil war and through world war 1. Then tanks and plains recreated the three pronged war with air/armored/and foot troops in time for world war 2.

[LTwerewolf]

Now, as things advanced the archery side just kinda took over. First you had the longbow and the use of defensive tactics to fight mounted units with just archers, then the musket and rifle eventually gained enough rate of fire to break apart a charge even without defensive structures. Pike units became obsolete and mounted units couldn't compete. The age of the mounted knight ended and slowly moved into the bloody lines of ranged troops firing at each other from lines that is definitive of the next era of war. Then trenches came into style around the civil war and through world war 1. Then tanks and plains recreated the three pronged war with air/armored/and foot troops in time for world war 2.

You're slightly mistaken. Pikes were still used after gunpowder became widely used. When that happened a typical army looked like this: Cannons, pikemen, cavalry, marksmen. Cannons wreaked havoc, so the cavalry's job was to disrupt them as much as possible. This is what the pikemen were still used for.

Cavalry in a form is still used today. It never really went out of style. Now, however, horses aren't used and big mobile thing of metal are. This is why tank divisions were still referred to as cavalry. Even in world war 2, horses were still being used in places like africa. Trenches and guns didn't negate the use of horses. A great example is Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders.

[hymer]

I just use a spear. 1h martial weapon. [...] You can use a dagger with two hands, too, and I don't see it on the 2h weapons list.

There's no such weapon in my PHB, unfortunately. And I'm having some trouble envisaging using a dagger two-handed, though that may well be RAW. (Insert tuggyne's signature here. :smallsmile:)
Thanks for your suggestions on stats for a pike, though I'd have thought they alreay existed somewhere.


Dragon Compendium has the Awl Pike. 2 handed with 15 ft. reach.

Interesting, thanks. Is it martial or exotic?

@ LT & Fouredged: So what weapons would you guys use to simulate A) pikes and B) dorys in 3.5?

[JusticeZero]

There's no such weapon in my PHB, unfortunately.
That's because the PHB is wrong. They were wrong when they changed the stats of a spear from previous editions for whatever reason and they are wrong on all sorts of other annoying points. The 2e stats on a pike iirc, by the way, is a 15' 'martial' (inferred from who knows how to use it) reach weapon that does the same damage as a spear (1d8). A spear in 2e was a 1d8 one handed weapon, set to receive charge.
They are also wrong about slings, which have the same RoF as a bow and range comparable to a longbow. (Atlatls have the same RoF too, but that weapon isn't even in there despite it's ammo being listed - they shoot javelins.) Slings take more training than a bow, though, so shortbows really should be a simple weapon. Bows were popular because it's easier to train an archer than a slinger, the ammo is light, and it penetrates armor. The Greeks preferred slings because of the longer range, it was too hot to have heavy armor, and it's easier to make ammo in the field. There's a fashion component too.
I can only suspect that it was realized that the strength component would make slings mechanically superior for a number of builds because there's no way to really model the ammo weight and penetration advantages, and that that would cramp peoples' Legolas fantasies.

[Greenish]

Interesting, thanks. Is it martial or exotic?Exotic, unfortunately.

[hymer]

@ JC: The PHB may well be wrong, but it's RAW.
This is off-topic and technically belongs in a different forum, hence the spoiler.
If you wanna rant, be my guest. :smallsmile: But that 2nd edition spears do 1d8 damage isn't entirely correct. They do 1d6 vs. medium and smaller, and 1d8 vs. large or larger. And their Speed Factor is 6. The staple longsword is strictly superior in doing 1d8/1d12 damage and having SF 5. The only upside to spears is that they double as throwing weapons.

@ Greenish: Thanks anyway. :smallsmile:

[Spuddles]

You're slightly mistaken. Pikes were still used after gunpowder became widely used. When that happened a typical army looked like this: Cannons, pikemen, cavalry, marksmen. Cannons wreaked havoc, so the cavalry's job was to disrupt them as much as possible. This is what the pikemen were still used for.

Cavalry in a form is still used today. It never really went out of style. Now, however, horses aren't used and big mobile thing of metal are. This is why tank divisions were still referred to as cavalry. Even in world war 2, horses were still being used in places like africa. Trenches and guns didn't negate the use of horses. A great example is Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders.

Cavalry, in the form of fast, mounted units that are used to break enemy formations and route infantry via a charge haven't really been used since the first world war. The horse and rider offer too large a profile and get chewed up by enemy fire. Armor is now the general term used to refer to the units that have replaced cavalry's combat role.

The Polish resistance in WWII successfully used horses to rapidly deploy infantry to the front lines where the men would dismount, approach the enemy in skirmish formation, then retreat to the horses. They were able to operate without supply lines and in more rugged terrain than german armor & mechanized infantry. A better term would be mounted infantry. The Finns, Italians, Greeks, and especially the Soviets all made similar use of mounted infantry in similar conditions- rugged terrain and rapid deployment of infantry.

There were a handful of battles in WWII where a proper cavalry charge was made, but usually as a desperation measure to surprise an entrenched enemy. The poles, early on in the war, would run down infantry units in the open field on horseback. But outside of those cases, horses were used in a mounted infantry role, not cavalry.

[hymer]

Thanks for joining the thread, Spuddles. What would you use to simulate pikes? Or dorys?

[Spuddles]

Warblades with longspears with the stance Lunging Strike. +5 feet on their turn, long spear doubles reach, they get 20 ft reach. Or at least 15. Someone can correct me.

I don't really know my late renaissance very well, but as I understood it, many of those pike regiments, etc., were all well disciplined professional fighting forces, so warblade would be better than using warrior or fighter.

Or they could of course using an awl pike or something. Human fighter 1 has two feats to burn. EWP & combat reflexes for something with 15 feet of reach seems great to me. Awesome fighting units. Again, I feel like fighter is justified for the sort of highly disciplined units that typically made up pike regiments as opposed to a spear regiment. Didn't the Macedonians under Alexander use like 30 foot long pikes, or something crazy like that?

[Solophoenix]

If you want a one handed spear that can also be thrown, just re-skin the Trident...

[Greenish]

Warblades with longspears with the stance Lunging Strike. +5 feet on their turn, long spear doubles reach, they get 20 ft reach. Or at least 15. Someone can correct me.I believe that reach weapons only double base reach, but I'm not certain. The stance is Dancing Blade Form, Iron Heart 5th. Lunging Strike is (rather poor) fighter feat from PHBII which allows you to make a single attack with extra reach as a full round action. PF Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final) works better, but sadly also requires 6 BAB.


I don't really know my late renaissance very well, but as I understood it, many of those pike regiments, etc., were all well disciplined professional fighting forces, so warblade would be better than using warrior or fighter.No offense to disciplined professional fighting forces, but having all the member be Warblade 10+ seems a tad excessive. :smalltongue:


Or they could of course using an awl pike or something. Human fighter 1 has two feats to burn. EWP & combat reflexes for something with 15 feet of reach seems great to me. Awesome fighting units.Hold the Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#holdTheLine) would round it up nicely.


Now, this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbhANeJL_T4) seems to made sense about pike 'tactics' (but in another video he claims everyone should drive on the left side, so take him with a large grain of salt).

[Spuddles]

Oh damn, I had no idea it was that high level. I thought it was a 1st level stance for some reason.

Interesting video, but it seems like BS. I mean how many years of stand in a line and trade volleys with the enemy were there of gunpowder tactics?

[hymer]

I don't really know my late renaissance very well, but as I understood it, many of those pike regiments, etc., were all well disciplined professional fighting forces, so warblade would be better than using warrior or fighter.

Good points, though the fighter bonus feat might be handy in portraying certain things, as you bring forward yourself.
The pike, though, served in a prominent role for something like six centuries, so no need to focus entirely on 1500s. :smallsmile:


Or they could of course using an awl pike or something. Human fighter 1 has two feats to burn. EWP & combat reflexes for something with 15 feet of reach seems great to me. Awesome fighting units. Again, I feel like fighter is justified for the sort of highly disciplined units that typically made up pike regiments as opposed to a spear regiment. Didn't the Macedonians under Alexander use like 30 foot long pikes, or something crazy like that?

I think a human fighter has three feats, actually: A level 1 feat, a human bonus feat and a fighter bonus feat.
Some could be the crack troops and some the conscript rank and file, so there's certainly something to use your ideas for, regardless.
I think 30 feet is a little on the long side. :smallsmile: As far as I know, Alexander's troops had a 18 foot polearm, and some of that must have been behind the guy for counterweight. I think they carried it in two pieces, and only assembled it for drills and battle.


If you want a one handed spear that can also be thrown, just re-skin the Trident...

Thanks! I think JusticeZero would like something like that. :smallsmile:

@ Greenish: Good points, and nice link (listening to him in the background now - I think I know what the pikes were for :smallsmile:). Thanks!

[Pancritic]

For renaissance pikemen or macedonian phalangites, I use longspears. For hoplites or other shield-equipped spearmen, I use shortspears. (Shortspears also double for pilums for roman legionaries.)

Note that these are for simplicity, not for historical accuracy.

I've also houseruled that the Phalanx Fighting (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/phalanx-fighting--2154/) feat can be used with one-handed spears.

[hymer]

Sounds like a decent houserule to me. :smallsmile: Thanks for the answer!

[Vaz]

@hymer, I believe "2 feats to burn" was in reference to the fact that compared to near enough any other race or class combination, you get a further 2 feats above and beyond the typical 1 at first level. Meaning you could take something more relevant to your main build with it as a dip; especially so with a dip into Warblade for Aptitude to allocate said proficiency to any other weapon.

[hymer]

That certainly makes sense, thanks for the clarification. :smallsmile:

[Spuddles]

Thanks Vaz.