1Thunder1
2013-03-28, 09:21 AM
Hello, this is my first post so I hope this is the right place. It is mainly an optimization/build question but I am also thinking it could fall into homebrew at the end.
I am currently playing a game using the Pathfinder system, the DM has allowed most 3.5 material. The only books that I can remember him banning were, Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic. He has also allowed some homebrew material, including this hexblade variant (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hexblade,_Variant_(3.5e_Class)) and feats (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Hex_Feats).
Using 3.0 + 3.5e + PF material
#1 What is the coolest stuff you can do involving a Full Caster Oracle (not necessarily strong, since I obviously can't win there). Specifically, which mystery has the best Full Caster/Controller revelations? As an Ancient Lorekeeper the spells don't really matter.
#2 Is the build I have below good enough? Opinions?
#3 Is there anyway possible to defeat someone with +40 on saves against Spells and can impose over a -8 penalty to attack rolls? Specifically a certain Hexblade
#4 Is there any possible way to defeat someone with 40 AC and rediculously high saves (+13 minimum at level 5)? Specifically a certain Monk
#5 Is there any possible way to do both #3 and #4 with the same Oracle build?
#6 What does it do to a game when you allow players to start with ability scores that are through the roof? I mean you can always throw stronger mobs, but what I have found is mobs still can never succeed against our DCs. Hold Person is an insta-kill spell when used at the correct time and the DCs to survive are 20 Will to resist the spell and about 38 Fort to resist the Coup de Grace. This leaves most CR4-6 humanoid mobs without much of a chance.
The Problem:
Okay, I was playing a basic Oracle with using the Lame Curse and Battle Mystery. I also had a barbarian level in there since I didn't expect the game to go very far and it was an easy boost. Now I actually got accused of playing a downright broken character by the other two players, out of session I was told by them that I needed to change by build or they wouldn't play anymore. Their statement went along the lines of "why should we play if you can kill all the mobs yourself". This was all based on the first encounter:
The PCs :
Now we have a small party of three PCs. For simplicity I am going to use their names.
Cort - Hexblade
Thanatos - Monk (Ultimate Monk Build (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)))
Greif - Oracle (Played by me)
First Encounter (If you really want to know):
Location:
Sewer
Small 10' hallway
large room ahead with most of the baddies in it
Team PCs:
Thanatos
Cort
Greif
Conner (Caster NPC)
Ash (Princess NPC)
Team Baddies:
2 Kobolds behind the party
3 Kobolds in front of the party
1 Giant Basilisk in the middle of the hall
Round 1:
Thanatos damages a kobold
Cort gets between the basilisk and princess
Greif uses Sanctuary on the princess
Round 2:
Thanatos damages a kobold
Cort charges the basilisk
Basilisk turns Cort to stone
Kobold damages Greif
Greif crits Kobold back for over 100 damage (kobold dies)
Other Kobold runs
Round 3:
Thanatos KOs a kobold (finally)
Ash teleports Cort out of the way (don't ask, I don't know how either)
Greif charges the Basilisk (Basilisk goes down)
Kobold caster heals the Basilisk
Basilisk turns Greif to stone
Round 4:
Thanatos KOs a kobold
NPCs kill the basilisk and caster
Combat ends Cort and Greif get a blood bath
Note Greif is using power attack while wielding an oversided (Monkey Grip) Mercurial Greatsword (Arms and Equipment Guide 3.0)
So anyway, fealing falsely accused I decided to get them to PvP my character (Out of Session)
I know PvP is a widely inaccurate estimate of a character's value but we considered it close enough and went with it
We did a best out of 3 (knowing that bad rolls can end your day)
Results:
Thanatos vs. Greif
Match 1:
[without buffs]
Thanatos wins initiative
Battle lasts about 3 rounds
Greif cannot bypass Thanatos' AC
Thanatos win unharmed
Match 2:
[with buffs]
Thanatos wins initiative
Battle lasts about 4 rounds
Greif gets stunned and drops his weapon
Draws a shortsword and gets 1 hit on Thanatos before dying
Thanatos win taking only 11 damage
Cort vs. Greif (this battle was modified, we are both level 9)
Match 1:
[without buffs]
Cort wins initiative
Cort's familiar also wins initiative
Cort curses Greif
Cort's familiar hits Greif with a breath weapon
Greif attacks Cort's familiar (hit)
Cort Intimidates Greif (greif cowers [Imperious Command])
Cort's familiar attacks
Greif can't act
Cort's familiar attacks
Greif goes down
Match 2:
[with buffs]
Cort wins initiative
Cort's familiar also wins initiative
Cort curses Greif
Cort's familiar hits Greif with a breath weapon
Cort charges Greif (hit)
Greif attack Cort (misses due to displacement)
Cort uses a full round attack (crit + all hit)
Greif goes down
After that, I almost fealt like they had beforehand. But I just kept on playing since I know that PvP isn't accurate and that we are a team anyway. Or I did up until the point where I was told I was hogging their show by playing another melee character and told to "respec" by the DM. So I just kind of went with it (partly because I like making new characters). Now I got rather curious after that battle, how they had built their characters. Thats when I found out about the hexblade variant and hex feats. I also found out about a couple of Magic of Incarnum feats that had been cleverly rewritten to use monk Ki Pool instead of Incarnum.
and yes I intend to retry our little Pvp matches... unfortunately I do not feel as if I even stand a chance
#6 Anyone have any semi-broken Homebrew feats I might be able to slide by the DM, since it is apparently quite easy
Build:
Ability Scores:
We have been allowed to start with near broken ability scores, as well as a +3 Tome/Manual. I am in about the center when it comes to ability scores.
This was my starting rolls array: 17, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10
then we were allowed to take Advanced Ability Scores (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races#TOC-Ability-Score-Modifier-Quality) and Advanced Charisma (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races#TOC-Ability-Score-Racial-Traits) (twice) from the advanced races guide (pf). The +3 tome just became icing on the cake at that point.
Now we started at level 4 so we got one last stat point:
Strength 16 (14 + 2)
Dexterity 12 (10 + 2)
Constitution 16 (14 + 2)
Intelligence 12 (12)
Wisdom 11 (13 - 2)
Charisma 29 (17 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 1)
This should put us somewhere close to Insane Uber Epic Fantasy
Class Features:
Oracle has a lot of options, so I made a block for it
Curse: Deaf
Mystery: Lore
Archtype: Ancient Lorekeeper
Spell selection from lorekeeper
Touch of Fatigue (2nd)
Nerveskitter (4th)
Invisibility (6th)
Haste (8th)
Confusion (10th)
Dominate Person (12th)
Chain Lightning (14th)
Limited Wish (16th)
Moment of prescience (18th)
Revelations:
Sidestep Secret
Lore Keeper
Feats:
I don't yet have a good grasp on what feats I actually want, since I am really lost as to how I can help the party most. So I have gone and went with the summoning feats for now.
Improved Initiative (Racial)
Skill Focus(Knowledge(Arcana)) (Racial) (yes our races are also broken)
Spell Focus(conjuration) (Flaw) (Yeah we were allowed one of these too)
Augmented Summoning (Level 1)
Superiour Summoning (Level 3)
Knowledge Devotion (Level 5)
Future plans:
Eldritch Heritage feats (Arcane)
The normal Metamagic feats (Extend maybe some others)
Spells:
Level 0:
Detect Magic (1st)
Light (1st)
Read Magic (1st)
Create Water (1st)
Purify Food and Drink (2nd)
Cure Minor Wounds (4th)
Stabalize (6th)
Mending (8th)
Guidance (10th)
Level 1:
Divine Favor (1st)
Bless (1st)
Sanctuary (3rd)
Summon Monster I (5th)
Obscuring Mist (7th)
Level 2:
Summon Monster II (4th)
Hold Person (5th)
Lesser Restoration (7th)
Pilfering Hand (9th)
Align Weapon (11th)
Level 3:
Summon Monster III (6th)
Animate Dead (7th) ??? maybe ??? the DM is acting weird about this
Prayer (9th)
Stone Shape (11th)
Level 4:
Restoration (8th)
Blessing of Fevor (9th)
Summon Monster IV (11th)
Aura of Doom (13th)
Level 5:
Surge of Fortune (10th)
Summon Monster V (11th)
Cleanse (13th)
Air Walk, Communal (15th)
Level 6:
Heal (12th)
Cold Ice Strike (13th)
Summon Monster VI (15th)
Animate Objects (17th)
Level 7:
Ethereal Jaunt (14th)
Waves of Ecstacy (15th)
(17th)
Level 8:
Euphoric Tranquility (16th)
Divine Vessel (17th)
Summon Monster VIII (19th)
Level 9:
Miracle (18th)
Summon Monster IX (19th)
(20th)
Spell selection from lorekeeper
Touch of Fatigue (2nd)
Nerveskitter (4th)
Invisibility (6th)
Haste (8th)
Confusion (10th)
Dominate Person (12th)
Chain Lightning (14th)
Limited Wish (16th)
Moment of prescience (18th)
Edlritch Heritage Feats (Arane) Spell Selection
Teleport (11th)
Disintegrate (15th)
Wish (19th)
Traits:
We can start with two of these, but I have not picked them yet for my characters spellcaster version
Thanks Everyone...
I feel like I probably lost 90% of the people who could answer this halfway through the post
EDIT - Made it 1000x easier to figure out what in the world I am asking
I am currently playing a game using the Pathfinder system, the DM has allowed most 3.5 material. The only books that I can remember him banning were, Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic. He has also allowed some homebrew material, including this hexblade variant (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hexblade,_Variant_(3.5e_Class)) and feats (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Hex_Feats).
Using 3.0 + 3.5e + PF material
#1 What is the coolest stuff you can do involving a Full Caster Oracle (not necessarily strong, since I obviously can't win there). Specifically, which mystery has the best Full Caster/Controller revelations? As an Ancient Lorekeeper the spells don't really matter.
#2 Is the build I have below good enough? Opinions?
#3 Is there anyway possible to defeat someone with +40 on saves against Spells and can impose over a -8 penalty to attack rolls? Specifically a certain Hexblade
#4 Is there any possible way to defeat someone with 40 AC and rediculously high saves (+13 minimum at level 5)? Specifically a certain Monk
#5 Is there any possible way to do both #3 and #4 with the same Oracle build?
#6 What does it do to a game when you allow players to start with ability scores that are through the roof? I mean you can always throw stronger mobs, but what I have found is mobs still can never succeed against our DCs. Hold Person is an insta-kill spell when used at the correct time and the DCs to survive are 20 Will to resist the spell and about 38 Fort to resist the Coup de Grace. This leaves most CR4-6 humanoid mobs without much of a chance.
The Problem:
Okay, I was playing a basic Oracle with using the Lame Curse and Battle Mystery. I also had a barbarian level in there since I didn't expect the game to go very far and it was an easy boost. Now I actually got accused of playing a downright broken character by the other two players, out of session I was told by them that I needed to change by build or they wouldn't play anymore. Their statement went along the lines of "why should we play if you can kill all the mobs yourself". This was all based on the first encounter:
The PCs :
Now we have a small party of three PCs. For simplicity I am going to use their names.
Cort - Hexblade
Thanatos - Monk (Ultimate Monk Build (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)))
Greif - Oracle (Played by me)
First Encounter (If you really want to know):
Location:
Sewer
Small 10' hallway
large room ahead with most of the baddies in it
Team PCs:
Thanatos
Cort
Greif
Conner (Caster NPC)
Ash (Princess NPC)
Team Baddies:
2 Kobolds behind the party
3 Kobolds in front of the party
1 Giant Basilisk in the middle of the hall
Round 1:
Thanatos damages a kobold
Cort gets between the basilisk and princess
Greif uses Sanctuary on the princess
Round 2:
Thanatos damages a kobold
Cort charges the basilisk
Basilisk turns Cort to stone
Kobold damages Greif
Greif crits Kobold back for over 100 damage (kobold dies)
Other Kobold runs
Round 3:
Thanatos KOs a kobold (finally)
Ash teleports Cort out of the way (don't ask, I don't know how either)
Greif charges the Basilisk (Basilisk goes down)
Kobold caster heals the Basilisk
Basilisk turns Greif to stone
Round 4:
Thanatos KOs a kobold
NPCs kill the basilisk and caster
Combat ends Cort and Greif get a blood bath
Note Greif is using power attack while wielding an oversided (Monkey Grip) Mercurial Greatsword (Arms and Equipment Guide 3.0)
So anyway, fealing falsely accused I decided to get them to PvP my character (Out of Session)
I know PvP is a widely inaccurate estimate of a character's value but we considered it close enough and went with it
We did a best out of 3 (knowing that bad rolls can end your day)
Results:
Thanatos vs. Greif
Match 1:
[without buffs]
Thanatos wins initiative
Battle lasts about 3 rounds
Greif cannot bypass Thanatos' AC
Thanatos win unharmed
Match 2:
[with buffs]
Thanatos wins initiative
Battle lasts about 4 rounds
Greif gets stunned and drops his weapon
Draws a shortsword and gets 1 hit on Thanatos before dying
Thanatos win taking only 11 damage
Cort vs. Greif (this battle was modified, we are both level 9)
Match 1:
[without buffs]
Cort wins initiative
Cort's familiar also wins initiative
Cort curses Greif
Cort's familiar hits Greif with a breath weapon
Greif attacks Cort's familiar (hit)
Cort Intimidates Greif (greif cowers [Imperious Command])
Cort's familiar attacks
Greif can't act
Cort's familiar attacks
Greif goes down
Match 2:
[with buffs]
Cort wins initiative
Cort's familiar also wins initiative
Cort curses Greif
Cort's familiar hits Greif with a breath weapon
Cort charges Greif (hit)
Greif attack Cort (misses due to displacement)
Cort uses a full round attack (crit + all hit)
Greif goes down
After that, I almost fealt like they had beforehand. But I just kept on playing since I know that PvP isn't accurate and that we are a team anyway. Or I did up until the point where I was told I was hogging their show by playing another melee character and told to "respec" by the DM. So I just kind of went with it (partly because I like making new characters). Now I got rather curious after that battle, how they had built their characters. Thats when I found out about the hexblade variant and hex feats. I also found out about a couple of Magic of Incarnum feats that had been cleverly rewritten to use monk Ki Pool instead of Incarnum.
and yes I intend to retry our little Pvp matches... unfortunately I do not feel as if I even stand a chance
#6 Anyone have any semi-broken Homebrew feats I might be able to slide by the DM, since it is apparently quite easy
Build:
Ability Scores:
We have been allowed to start with near broken ability scores, as well as a +3 Tome/Manual. I am in about the center when it comes to ability scores.
This was my starting rolls array: 17, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10
then we were allowed to take Advanced Ability Scores (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races#TOC-Ability-Score-Modifier-Quality) and Advanced Charisma (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races#TOC-Ability-Score-Racial-Traits) (twice) from the advanced races guide (pf). The +3 tome just became icing on the cake at that point.
Now we started at level 4 so we got one last stat point:
Strength 16 (14 + 2)
Dexterity 12 (10 + 2)
Constitution 16 (14 + 2)
Intelligence 12 (12)
Wisdom 11 (13 - 2)
Charisma 29 (17 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 1)
This should put us somewhere close to Insane Uber Epic Fantasy
Class Features:
Oracle has a lot of options, so I made a block for it
Curse: Deaf
Mystery: Lore
Archtype: Ancient Lorekeeper
Spell selection from lorekeeper
Touch of Fatigue (2nd)
Nerveskitter (4th)
Invisibility (6th)
Haste (8th)
Confusion (10th)
Dominate Person (12th)
Chain Lightning (14th)
Limited Wish (16th)
Moment of prescience (18th)
Revelations:
Sidestep Secret
Lore Keeper
Feats:
I don't yet have a good grasp on what feats I actually want, since I am really lost as to how I can help the party most. So I have gone and went with the summoning feats for now.
Improved Initiative (Racial)
Skill Focus(Knowledge(Arcana)) (Racial) (yes our races are also broken)
Spell Focus(conjuration) (Flaw) (Yeah we were allowed one of these too)
Augmented Summoning (Level 1)
Superiour Summoning (Level 3)
Knowledge Devotion (Level 5)
Future plans:
Eldritch Heritage feats (Arcane)
The normal Metamagic feats (Extend maybe some others)
Spells:
Level 0:
Detect Magic (1st)
Light (1st)
Read Magic (1st)
Create Water (1st)
Purify Food and Drink (2nd)
Cure Minor Wounds (4th)
Stabalize (6th)
Mending (8th)
Guidance (10th)
Level 1:
Divine Favor (1st)
Bless (1st)
Sanctuary (3rd)
Summon Monster I (5th)
Obscuring Mist (7th)
Level 2:
Summon Monster II (4th)
Hold Person (5th)
Lesser Restoration (7th)
Pilfering Hand (9th)
Align Weapon (11th)
Level 3:
Summon Monster III (6th)
Animate Dead (7th) ??? maybe ??? the DM is acting weird about this
Prayer (9th)
Stone Shape (11th)
Level 4:
Restoration (8th)
Blessing of Fevor (9th)
Summon Monster IV (11th)
Aura of Doom (13th)
Level 5:
Surge of Fortune (10th)
Summon Monster V (11th)
Cleanse (13th)
Air Walk, Communal (15th)
Level 6:
Heal (12th)
Cold Ice Strike (13th)
Summon Monster VI (15th)
Animate Objects (17th)
Level 7:
Ethereal Jaunt (14th)
Waves of Ecstacy (15th)
(17th)
Level 8:
Euphoric Tranquility (16th)
Divine Vessel (17th)
Summon Monster VIII (19th)
Level 9:
Miracle (18th)
Summon Monster IX (19th)
(20th)
Spell selection from lorekeeper
Touch of Fatigue (2nd)
Nerveskitter (4th)
Invisibility (6th)
Haste (8th)
Confusion (10th)
Dominate Person (12th)
Chain Lightning (14th)
Limited Wish (16th)
Moment of prescience (18th)
Edlritch Heritage Feats (Arane) Spell Selection
Teleport (11th)
Disintegrate (15th)
Wish (19th)
Traits:
We can start with two of these, but I have not picked them yet for my characters spellcaster version
Thanks Everyone...
I feel like I probably lost 90% of the people who could answer this halfway through the post
EDIT - Made it 1000x easier to figure out what in the world I am asking