[3.5] Blur vs. Alter Self?

[Unusual Muse]

I'm currently playing a gish, and I'm wondering which AC-boosting strategy would serve me better: Blur or Alter Self. I can get a natural armor of +6 by becoming a troglodyte (which, incidentally, also improves my move speed by 10' because I'm a dwarf). Or I can get the 20% miss chance from Blur. Alter Self also has a much better duration than Blur. Thoughts?

EDIT: I should add, Blur is much more in-keeping with the character concept; he just started taking levels in Knight Phantom. He'll also be using Mirror Image.

[Daftendirekt]

Statistically, AC gets useless at high levels. Miss chances are always good. So, while turning into that troglodyte for 8 natural armor is nice, the 20% chance to miss is statistically better. In actual play experience may vary, though.

[RaggedAngel]

Statistically, AC gets useless at high levels. Miss chances are always good. So, while turning into that troglodyte for 8 natural armor is nice, the 20% chance to miss is statistically better. In actual play experience may vary, though.

I'll add here that turning into a troglodyte has a lot of downsides that Blur doesn't. They're hideous monstrous humanoids with an incredibly offensive stench; they're smelly enough that it's an actual mechanical ability. It depends on your group and party, and Alter Self is a very versatile spell, but I use Blur for combat.

[Gavinfoxx]

The smell of Tren and Troglodytes aren't replicated via Alter Self...

[Daftendirekt]

I'll add here that turning into a troglodyte has a lot of downsides that Blur doesn't. They're hideous monstrous humanoids with an incredibly offensive stench; they're smelly enough that it's an actual mechanical ability.

Does Alter Self actually give you that part of their mechanics, though?

EDIT: ninja-answer'd

[Fyermind]

What are your AC and level? +8 AC means very different things if you already have high AC for your level then if you don't. Also miss chance means less if true seeing is a possibility.

[Bakkan]

Let's analyze!

{table=head] Attacker hits on a... | Normal chance to hit | Chance to hit with blur | Chance to hit with +8 AC
20 | 5% | 4% | 5%
19 | 10% | 8% | 5%
18 | 15% | 12% | 5%
17 | 20% | 16% | 5%
16 | 25% | 20% | 5%
15 | 30% | 24% | 5%
14 | 35% | 28% | 5%
13 | 40% | 32% | 5%
12 | 45% | 36% | 5%
11 | 50% | 40% |10%
10 | 55% | 44% |15%
9 | 60% | 48% | 20%
8 | 65% | 52% | 25%
7 | 70% | 56% | 30%
6 | 75% | 60% | 35%
5 | 80% | 64% | 40%
4 | 85% | 68% | 45%
3 | 90% | 72% | 50%
2 | 95% | 76% | 55%
"1" | 95% | 76% | 60%
"0" | 95% | 76% | 65%
"-1"|95%|76%|70%
"-2"|95%|76%|75%
"-3"|95%|76%|80%
"-4"|95%|76%|85%
"-5"|95%|76%|90%
"-6"|95%|76%|95%
[/table]

In the case of simple attacks, where blur's only effect is a 20% miss chance and alter selfing into a form with +8 AC has no other relevant effects, blur is only better than alter self at stopping hits in the case that the attacker would hit even if the d20 roll showed -3 or in the case that the attaker already needs a 20 to hit. That is, blur is preferable to alter self if the attacker's attack modifier is at least your normal AC+3 or less than your AC-19. I don't know about you, but neither of these cases happen a lot in my games.

However, there are other considerations to be had. The most relevant one for combat is that blur negates sneak attacks, while alter self does not. Obvously, this is a situational benefit, but in the case that it is applicable, that effect of blur is phenomenally important.

[TuggyNE]

Once you get enough slots, why not use both?

[Flickerdart]

At the levels where AC becomes less useful, everyone and their mother learns to see through illusion spells or ignore concealment, both of which defeat blur utterly. By that time you'll probably have a better miss chance available, anyway.

So for sure, alter self.

[Fyermind]

Other considerations are the prevalence of touch attacks which being a trog doesn't help with at all.

Alter self is probably the better bet though. Wait until displacement comes online with third level spells or until Greater blink shows up with fifth level spells.

[tiercel]

Alter self is so good it's ridiculous. As has been pointed out here, using it as merely trog self purely for AC pretty much trumps blur for *general* combat applications, never mind all the other stuff it does. (Notably, see the mini-guidebook 3.5 Forms for Alter Self (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0) (perhaps most notably on the utility end, using alter self as a 2nd level fly spell).

The best reasons to not use alter self are RP (if you really don't want to be a stinky trog) or harmony with an overwhelmed DM (if he finds even this end of the polymorph sequence too much bang for your buck). From a purely mechanical standpoint, though.... it pretty much wins.

[sonofzeal]

Statistically, AC gets useless at high levels.
While a common assumption on these forums, it's.... uh, not actually true. Or at least, it's an overstatement. At high levels, there are still plenty of things swinging against your normal AC, and most of those things have attack bonuses that AC can be relevant against.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/sonofzeal/ACbyLevel.png

"Good" AC is a 75% wiff rate, "Decent" is a 50% wiff rate, and "poor" is a 25% wiff rate.

Monster attack bonuses were taken from MM1, and only includes monsters with melee-based abilities or tactics. This includes "hybrid" sorts who have both melee and magical offensive ability, but excludes any who are obviously intended to rely purely on supernatural abilities or spells. Thus, it represents a valid cross-section of the types of attack bonuses PCs will see against them coming from by-the-book MM1 monsters.

Note also that this only applies against single even-CR brutes. When fighting a pair of slightly weaker monsters, or a horde of significantly weaker monsters, the values are even better. But, of course, an above-CR boss fight, or one tweaked by the DM with custom gear and/or buff spells, might be significantly more accurate.

Nobody is arguing that AC is a total defence at high level. Anyone is going to want to pick up miss chance eventually, among other special defences. But AC is attainable at relevant numbers without breaking the bank.

[Wings of Peace]

Dwarven Ancestor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3) is probably going to give you the most ac bang for your buck with Alter Self but it'll typically require a feat or special racial trait to pull off.

That +16 ac (after dexterity and size penalties) is very nice especially when considering the gentle level and spell slot requirements.

[Andezzar]

Dwarven Ancestor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3) is probably going to give you the most ac bang for your buck with Alter Self but it'll typically require a feat or special racial trait to pull off.Why would you need a feat or special racial trait to alter yourself into a dwarf ancestor? It's a 5 HD creature, so it should work.

[Aasimar]

This is a good summation of why I prefer pathfinder Alter Self

[Bakkan]

Why would you need a feat or special racial trait to alter yourself into a dwarf ancestor? It's a 5 HD creature, so it should work.

Because the dwarven ancestor is an outsider, so you need to be one as well in order to alter self into one.

[Deophaun]

As the AC benefit of alter self and the miss chance of blur are equally likely to be useless at higher levels, take alter self because you get movement speeds and modes that will remain relevant.

[Zelkon]

Also, mirror image is superior to blur. You make a minimum of two other clones, which gives a 66% miss chance. Alter Self has a bunch of other uses, which is why it's my favorite spell (along with Explosive Runes and Dimension Door).

[Killer Angel]

Alter self is so good it's ridiculous.


Here you are. Alter self is decisely better than blur... you can have a solid boost to AC, and you stack all the other goodies of alter self, depending on the form you choose.
For missing chance, you can pick spells better than blur.

[Glimbur]

Alter Self has ten times the duration of Blur. Depending on how your games go the difference between 1 minute/level and 10 minutes/level might matter.

[hymer]

I don't doubt that Alter Self is the more versatile and for most cases powerful of the two. But as long as I'm not gimping myself compared to the party, I'd go with the conceptually correct spell.
Once you get a permanent source of miss chance, maybe you can switch spells so you don't miss out on a spell known slot?

[ericgrau]

Mathematically each point of AC is always worth some amount more than 5%, until you fall so far behind that foes are hitting you on a 2. Even at level 10 the average foe has around a +16 to hit, not including secondary attacks, so that isn't going to happen. It's fine to say go for miss chance on level 20 builds, but for levels 1-14 AC gets you hit less often even on someone with a sucky AC like a caster.

More importantly, alter self has a longer duration so you can often cast it ahead of time. That's what really trumps all else: action economy.

In fact, I don't think I'd ever cast blur in all the time I play D&D until the end of time. There are better spells for the buffing round, and for any other round I'd be better off attacking. If I get to high level (which is rare) I'd prefer displacement, and I'd prefer about a dozen spells to displacement. At low level you'll get hit less often from casting shield. In fact, get shield. It's not shadow fluff, but even the example spells in the mage knight excerpt aren't illusion spells. If you don't often have time to cast it, as you often won't, put it on scrolls to conserve spell slots.

The fluff for blur is way better, but then why even ask? With mirror image you don't have time to cast it anyway; too many brief buffs when you should be attacking. So you're down to alter self or nothing. As a compromise I'd look for a prettier alter self form that still has some AC.

There's a guide here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871862/3.5Forms_for_Alter_Self
All the high AC forms I found were lizardy but maybe you can find something with moderate AC. A dark stalker (fiend folio) gets +2 AC, 30' speed, +8 hide and +4 move silently in shadows, and a cool look: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50108.jpg (the bigger one)

[Evard]

This is a good summation of why I prefer pathfinder Alter Self

About the only (yes only) thing PF did right was fix the polymorph spells but even then they didn't touch all the other problems sooo yeah there is that.

[Karnith]

About the only (yes only) thing PF did right was fix the polymorph spells but even then they didn't touch all the other problems sooo yeah there is that.
Oh come now, that's not all they did. They also addressed the gulf between mundanes and casters by laying out some nerfs for melee types.

[Evard]

Oh come now, that's not all they did. They also addressed the gulf between mundanes and casters by laying out some nerfs for melee types.

Hot damn I forgot all about those! And here I thought Pathfinder was just an over-glorified homebrew system! I have seen the light!

[Unusual Muse]

Once you get a permanent source of miss chance, maybe you can switch spells so you don't miss out on a spell known slot?

What are ways to get a permanent source of miss chance?

[Karnith]

What are ways to get a permanent source of miss chance?
In core, a minor cloak of displacement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofDisplacementMinor) gives you a 20% miss chance for as long as you wear it. Similarly, gleaming armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/armorAndShields.htm#gleaming) from the SRD grants continuous concealment (much as the blur spell does) when you wear it.

[Daftendirekt]

What are ways to get a permanent source of miss chance?


Cloak of Displacement, permanent 20%.
Cloak of Shadows feature of the Shadowcraft Mage, maxing at 40%.
Shadow Blur feature of the Telflammar Shadowlord, giving you 20% whenever you're in shadow.


Probably others that I can't think of or am not aware of.

[Wings of Peace]

Cloak of Displacement, permanent 20%.
Cloak of Shadows feature of the Shadowcraft Mage, maxing at 40%.
Shadow Blur feature of the Telflammar Shadowlord, giving you 20% whenever you're in shadow.


Probably others that I can't think of or am not aware of.

Ring of Blinking.

[Karnith]

Ring of Blinking.
Well, a ring of blinking has to be re-activated every few rounds, so it's not really a permanent miss chance.

[Gnaeus]

About the only (yes only) thing PF did right was fix the polymorph spells but even then they didn't touch all the other problems sooo yeah there is that.


Oh come now, that's not all they did. They also addressed the gulf between mundanes and casters by laying out some nerfs for melee types.

Disagree with both points.

They nerfed a lot of go to spells as well. I do not find PF games to be any worse balanced than 3.5 games. Not really any better balanced either, but I certainly don't think they made balance worse. (Of course, my general lack of concern about the issue is in the balance thread).

But.

I think that the change to Polymorph is actually the biggest hit in our games to the melee types in the entire system change. Our groups were used to the wizard Polymorphing the high BAB, high HP, feat heavy fighter into some kind of giant beastie so that he could dominate encounters. The polymorph line is now mostly (Target: Self). Polymorph itself is now a level higher, and does not allow you to turn your fighter into any kind of tool using critter with reach (maybe an Ape, but if he has ever seen a druid I doubt the DM is enthusiastic about Apes wielding armor and greatswords). It really isn't worth taking, with no clear winner of a teammate buff taking its place, so it likely is dropped from most wizard's spell lists in favor of an attack or personal spell.

[Jack Zander]

I didn't realize melee got nerfed. They seemed to do immeasurably better in the games I played in.

[Gnaeus]

They generally have a higher optimization floor and a lower optimization ceiling.

[Wings of Peace]

Well, a ring of blinking has to be re-activated every few rounds, so it's not really a permanent miss chance.

Does it? I don't see that in the text.

[Gnaeus]

The ring works as the Blink spell. At CL 7, Blink lasts 7 rounds.

[Karnith]

Does it? I don't see that in the text.
Per the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm)

Activation

Usually, a ring’s ability is activated by a command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or it works continually. Some rings have exceptional activation methods, according to their descriptions.
(Emphasis mine)

Rings of blinking function on command, and replicate the blink spell at CL 7, so you would need to spend a standard action every few rounds to keep the effect going.

[Wings of Peace]

Per the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm)

(Emphasis mine)

Rings of blinking function on command, and replicate the blink spell at CL 7, so you would need to spend a standard action every few rounds to keep the effect going.

I think I'm thinking of the Ring of Greater Blinking then but it's possible I'm just having a radical memory error.

[ericgrau]

It's a common tactic to reactivate the ring every 7 rounds, though if you think about it making noise every 42 seconds is a good way to announce your presence. Fortunately command words are less restrictive than spell verbal components, they can be simple common speech, and I don't think whispering is unreasonable for them. The drawback to whispering to your ring constantly is you look like Gollum. And with bad luck the blinking might expire mid-fight. Most of all it's an expensive item, as is the cloak of minor displacement. I'd put them down as level 15+ items.


Wait until displacement comes online with third level spells or until Greater blink shows up with fifth level spells.
This is a better idea. Displacement is way better than blur. OTOH there are a lot of good 3rd level spells, including haste. I'd set up a buff priority, something like this:


Morning: Greater mage armor (or mage armor if there's no room left), false life, (level 8+) greater magic weapon. Lesser rod(s) of extend spell help(s).
Dungeon: Alter Self, heroism
Buff Rounds:
1: Haste
2: Displacement
3: Scroll of shield.
4: Scroll of protection from evil.

Buff Rounds (swift actions):
1: Bladeweave

Combat:
1: Swift Fly (and close to melee); haste if lots of party melee, displacement if you're the only one who can take hits, otherwise attack
2+: Bladeweave if uncast, otherwise blades of fire; attack
3+: Blades of Fire, attack

Preparing spells: Buff round buffs (but never more than 2) > morning buffs > swift buffs.
Dungeon buffs go with morning buffs in priority but only if you're not out in the wilderness. In the wilderness they're left unprepared. Buff round buffs beyond 2 go on scrolls or they're ignored, because you usually won't have time for them.

Bladeweave and displacement are also thematic, though magic in general isn't a bad fit for a knight phantom IMO. Alternatively there are a lot of good combat spells too, if you want to cast directly at foes instead of stabbing things. But I assumed you wanted to stab.