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Prince Zahn
2013-03-28, 08:24 PM
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Okay, before you decide to judge me for this I will note it is very obvious to me that the idea of abusing mind-affecting effects on one's own party (be it as player or DM) is often frowned upon and viewed as poor roleplay/narrative. Though for the most part I am not opposed to this claim, this thread stands here to discuss where does the limit REALLY stand on manipulating the party with mind-affecting effects, and from a DM's pespective, tips for proper narration that intricately subtle situations made by use of certain illusion and enchantment-like abilities require.
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Hi there, Playground!:smallsmile:

I posted this thread because I'm torn over a certain situation: accompanying this adventure I DM for is an NPC who needs to (subtly!) gain the trust of the team before I can do certain things in the group.

The only twist in this situation is that the NPC in question is an Telepath, after thinking on his character there is no compelling reason as to why he would actively refrain from using subtle mind-influencing abilities on the party to get on their good side, (especially as they don't have proof he even has them)other than it would be poor narrative to blatantly railroad the group into doing exactly what he wants.:smallannoyed:

I'm not saying he is the villain, he doesn't have to be as a mind-controller, But it would be pathetic to just decree "I won't enchant you guys because my storyteller/god told me not to,"

So I ask this: if I wanted to, say, get my party to fall to the influence of such manipulation ( such as, say, Charm person?) with as little obviousness as I could, how should I go about that? Is there a way for me to do something like that so it would be narratively acceptable, in the case of charm-based effects, what tools do I have as a DM to make it as subtle, yet potent as possible?:smallconfused:
And lastly, and this is pure curiosity, is there any way to do this as a player on my fellow party, or must I acquire their conscious cooperation before it is considered an acceptable act?

Oh, and PLEASE refrain from suggesting the practice of mentalism, NLP and/or witchcraft for the sake of decency, though. thank you and I would love to hear any tips and/or suggestions.:smallsmile:

Tengu_temp
2013-03-28, 08:32 PM
If you know what kind of NPCs your players like, then describe and play the telepath as exactly this kind of NPC. In reality he could be a completely different character, but his powers make the PCs see him as someone they can like and trust.

As for PCs using such abilities on other PCs, doing so is generally an act of PVP. Unless your group agreed that PVP is accepted and can happen at any point, doing so is usually in poor tone.

W3bDragon
2013-03-28, 09:33 PM
So I ask this: if I wanted to, say, get my party to fall to the influence of such manipulation ( such as, say, Charm person?) with as little obviousness as I could, how should I go about that? Is there a way for me to do something like that so it would be narratively acceptable, in the case of charm-based effects, what tools do I have as a DM to make it as subtle, yet potent as possible?:smallconfused:

This highly depends on the maturity of your players and their faith in you as a DM. If they are mature players and won't automatically assume that a charm on them means the DM is out to get them, then this can work just fine. If not, then you might as well forget it.

Mechanically, I suspect that the NPC would be hesitant to charm everyone because every Charm cast has a possibility of a passed save, which could lead to him being caught. As such, I would just have the Telepath pick the PC least likely to have good mental fortitude and charm him only. Then I'd take the player aside and explain to him that he's under the effects of a Charm Person cast by the NPC. I'd ask him to do his best to make sure the other players don't realize it. If I feel it would motivate the player, I'd promise him bonus xp if he pulls this off in a convincing manner.

Lastly, I'd try to speed the story to the point where the charm is discovered or passed so as not to put too much pressure on the charmed PC.

On a separate note, there are many things that are considered taboos in tabletop gaming. However there are times when most of them, in the correct doses, can and should be used.

Prince Zahn
2013-03-29, 05:22 AM
If you know what kind of NPCs your players like, then describe and play the telepath as exactly this kind of NPC. In reality he could be a completely different character, but his powers make the PCs see him as someone they can like and trust.

As for PCs using such abilities on other PCs, doing so is generally an act of PVP. Unless your group agreed that PVP is accepted and can happen at any point, doing so is usually in poor tone.
That is pretty good advice, I'll try that.
Telepath aside, One thing I am curious about too is any tips on unknowingly affecting the party with similar affects, even compulsion-based (like suggestion, aversion, crushing despair, for example, do I just tell the player that these powerful notions run through his head, or is a more subtle approach needed?


This highly depends on the maturity of your players and their faith in you as a DM. If they are mature players and won't automatically assume that a charm on them means the DM is out to get them, then this can work just fine. If not, then you might as well forget it.
Mhmm, I'd like to believe they DON'T see me as a (pardon my language) arrogant and vindictive pr**k, And, while I'm at it, I'd also like to believe they are mature enough not to flip the gaming table when all is revealed.
I think I'm good:smallsmile:

Mechanically, I suspect that the NPC would be hesitant to charm everyone because every Charm cast has a possibility of a passed save, which could lead to him being caught. As such, I would just have the Telepath pick the PC least likely to have good mental fortitude and charm him only. Then I'd take the player aside and explain to him that he's under the effects of a Charm Person cast by the NPC. I'd ask him to do his best to make sure the other players don't realize it. If I feel it would motivate the player, I'd promise him bonus xp if he pulls this off in a convincing manner.

Lastly, I'd try to speed the story to the point where the charm is discovered or passed so as not to put too much pressure on the charmed PC.
Interesting advice, I may consider this as a plan B, but of course I'm not sure exactly how I will actually go about this yet, With the tips I get here I'll think of something for our next session.


On a separate note, there are many things that are considered taboos in tabletop gaming. However there are times when most of them, in the correct doses, can and should be used. Which is precisely what I'm wondering, at what point does having all that they believe is true in my world wrapped around my finger considered too far? When is manipulating how their characters think and act (even if as a result of a spell) turn to darker shades of gray?

Anyone else got advice, examples? or even someone just to tell me if I'm crazy or not?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

Kol Korran
2013-03-29, 08:00 AM
I don't really see the problem. All parties I've played with (not many, but still) never had a problem with the DM using mind influencing powers on party members. sure, some didn't like it, but they accepted it as part of adventuring just you have a chance to get killed, cursed, tricked by none magic and so on. problems would rise if:
- there was no way to save/ counter the enchantment
- or if the interpretation of the enchantment was abused way beyond it's intent. charm person is an example of that: it makes the subject treat the caster like a good friend. but even good friends don't go off an risk their lives for you, or give you their most treasured items, or willingly betray their other friends, or tell highgly important secrets they have sworn to guard and so on. (BTW, this is one of the reasons I like the Giant's diplomacy rules so much, they make a reasonable mechanic to judging these kind of spells)

however, even if you follow these guidelines, there may be problems: first- most enchantments have will saves, so you can fail, and they have limited durations, which mean you have to cast the spell over and over, which again mean possibility of failure. and lastly- I think some grant an extra save (or a bonus) if you try have the subject do something against their usual personality and such.

as was mentioned, since you need to roll a save you can't much hide the spell being cast (i know you can roll for them, but for that you need a very high level of trust from your players, since most will call "DM Fiat/ fudging" in this case, and will want to make the roll themselves). I due think you need to have to take the player aside and tell them they are charmed. mature players might dislike this for a moment, but then take it as a cool twist and a roleplay challenge. I suggest targeting the PLAYER that is most likely to cooperate and appreciate such a thing. (hopefully he'll also have a will save, but not necessarily)

I can't however stress the need to be quite diplomatic, decaitful and cunning with or without the mind influencing spells- they are not complete mind control (at least most of them, like charm person) and require quite a bit of extra manipulation to have them work. magic is easily found out, and is easily countered, and then your villain's disguise go down the drain. it's much harder to discover a carefully worded ruse and act, who just has a high bluff attached to it (perhaps with a magical item or two to avoid detection magic).

also, quite importantly- using magic on the party to make them do stuff makes the villain seem to use cheap tricks/ resort to magic to be able to influence the party, and as such the respect for him diminishes. but a villain who actually conned you to do his dirty work for him out of your own free will? why, the bastard! cunning villain! get him! this get a much better emotional response than just "roll a will save". trick the players by actually tricking them, not by telling them" oh, you've been tricked".

didn't mean to sound so critical, mind altering magic is cool, if used properly.

Xeratos
2013-03-29, 10:06 AM
Telepath aside, One thing I am curious about too is any tips on unknowingly affecting the party with similar affects, even compulsion-based (like suggestion, aversion, crushing despair, for example, do I just tell the player that these powerful notions run through his head, or is a more subtle approach needed?

If your NPC has set it up right (and by that, I mean you), the player shouldn't even necessarily know he or she's been charmed. Consider this scenario:

Fred the fighter is trying to help a village woman save her husband from a band of marauding brigands. He breaks into the brigands' fort, slays the evil men, rescues the prisoner, and returns him to his wife.

In reality (so to speak :P), what's actually happened is that he failed his will save, and an evil enchantress has placed him under a compulsion effect to make him think that he's doing this. He conveniently ignores the fact that the brigands happen to be dressed like soldiers, that their fort is a well maintained garrison and not some dump being squatted in, and that the village woman's "husband" is a well dressed nobleman.

As the DM, because your player is charmed, you also conveniently ignore these facts when you're describing what's going on. Depending on the type of compulsion, Fred might get a new will save to snap out of it when he sees details that don't line up with what he expects to find. If he never beats the compulsion, Fred might never find discover he's been manipulated into kidnapping a nobleman.

If at some point in time, Fred does manage to make a will save, you can then tell him all the details that were glossed over while he was compelled. If not, then you've managed to pull a compulsion on your player, in game, without ever telling him he's rolled a will save, let alone that he's failed it. Of course, if you're keeping it that much of a secret, then you'd have to roll the save for him. If he's good enough to split his knowledge from his character's, you could tell him to make a will save, but not let him know the results.

Scow2
2013-03-29, 12:52 PM
If your NPC has set it up right (and by that, I mean you), the player shouldn't even necessarily know he or she's been charmed. Consider this scenario:

Fred the fighter is trying to help a village woman save her husband from a band of marauding brigands. He breaks into the brigands' fort, slays the evil men, rescues the prisoner, and returns him to his wife.

In reality (so to speak :P), what's actually happened is that he failed his will save, and an evil enchantress has placed him under a compulsion effect to make him think that he's doing this. He conveniently ignores the fact that the brigands happen to be dressed like soldiers, that their fort is a well maintained garrison and not some dump being squatted in, and that the village woman's "husband" is a well dressed nobleman.

As the DM, because your player is charmed, you also conveniently ignore these facts when you're describing what's going on. Depending on the type of compulsion, Fred might get a new will save to snap out of it when he sees details that don't line up with what he expects to find. If he never beats the compulsion, Fred might never find discover he's been manipulated into kidnapping a nobleman.

If at some point in time, Fred does manage to make a will save, you can then tell him all the details that were glossed over while he was compelled. If not, then you've managed to pull a compulsion on your player, in game, without ever telling him he's rolled a will save, let alone that he's failed it. Of course, if you're keeping it that much of a secret, then you'd have to roll the save for him. If he's good enough to split his knowledge from his character's, you could tell him to make a will save, but not let him know the results.
Charm person doesn't work that way, at all. It makes the caster your friend. It doesn't change your perception of the rest of the world.

Prince Zahn
2013-03-29, 02:08 PM
Charm person doesn't work that way, at all. It makes the caster your friend. It doesn't change your perception of the rest of the world.

Mechanically we are talking about raising the attitude level. In a sense that means how our fighter values the village woman, how trustworthy our fighter would perceive the village woman should change appropriately.
I'd think it's not your perception of the world, per se, that changes, I agree with you there, but it should make a difference on how he would perceive the others when his "friend" thinks badly of them.

I can see myself taking a more careful approach so as to give them a crooked perception of what's going on, but I think that would require much practice to really be an impressive scandal.

My hat is hungry for your two cents, my friends!

Xeratos
2013-03-29, 02:21 PM
Charm person doesn't work that way, at all. It makes the caster your friend. It doesn't change your perception of the rest of the world.

I realize that charm person doesn't work that way. That's why I didn't say Fred is affected by it. I said he was laid under a compulsion, and described a way in which the player could see the world, conveniently ignoring details that don't mesh up with reality, since the OP specifically asked for "tips on unknowingly affecting the party with similar affects, even compulsion-based," which, I might add, is the snippet that I started my post with, implying that I was addressing specifically that portion of his own post.

Prince Zahn
2013-03-30, 06:16 AM
as was mentioned, since you need to roll a save you can't much hide the spell being cast (i know you can roll for them, but for that you need a very high level of trust from your players, since most will call "DM Fiat/ fudging" in this case, and will want to make the roll themselves). I due think you need to have to take the player aside and tell them they are charmed. mature players might dislike this for a moment, but then take it as a cool twist and a roleplay challenge. I suggest targeting the PLAYER that is most likely to cooperate and appreciate such a thing. (hopefully he'll also have a will save, but not necessarily)I wanted to address this last time, guess I forgot. I see what you mean by "I can't hide the ruse forever" [/paraphrase], these kinds of long-term deceptions under influence can be tricky like that in a fair system.
If I can find a realistic way to pull it off I may do so nonetheless.


also, quite importantly- using magic on the party to make them do stuff makes the villain seem to use cheap tricks/ resort to magic to be able to influence the party, and as such the respect for him diminishes. but a villain who actually conned you to do his dirty work for him out of your own free will? why, the bastard! cunning villain! get him! this get a much better emotional response than just "roll a will save". trick the players by actually tricking them, not by telling them" oh, you've been tricked".

didn't mean to sound so critical, mind altering magic is cool, if used properly.
Not offended - I expect to see the multiple sides of the same hit die.
Anyway, this, I think, Must be my favorite thing said thus far into the discussion, tricking them into false assumptions, the wrong choices, the dangerous paths and the dirty work,:smallamused: and it may even serve as an alternative to simple will saves, as they can still resist with intuition... I think going with real trickery to create an impression of "perversion of free will" seems like something really cool to do.

This is good stuff, fellas, thanks!:smallsmile:

Magenta
2013-03-30, 01:46 PM
So I ask this: if I wanted to, say, get my party to fall to the influence of such manipulation ( such as, say, Charm person?) with as little obviousness as I could, how should I go about that? Is there a way for me to do something like that so it would be narratively acceptable, in the case of charm-based effects, what tools do I have as a DM to make it as subtle, yet potent as possible?:smallconfused:

If it were me I would employ an "unreliable narrator". If, for example, the Telepath wishes for the PC to become hostile towards some third party (and the suitable enchantment spell has been successfully used) then you'd present them to the players in a very unfavorable light.

That way the spell would greatly influence their choices, but without them really knowing that they have been affected. I'm not sure if everyone would appreciate the idea of the DM being an unreliable narrator, but in return this would at least give them an extra chance to see through the deception by adding up the pieces of the puzzle that just doesn't seem to match.

Prince Zahn
2013-03-30, 03:29 PM
If it were me I would employ an "unreliable narrator". If, for example, the Telepath wishes for the PC to become hostile towards some third party (and the suitable enchantment spell has been successfully used) then you'd present them to the players in a very unfavorable light.

That way the spell would greatly influence their choices, but without them really knowing that they have been affected. I'm not sure if everyone would appreciate the idea of the DM being an unreliable narrator, but in return this would at least give them an extra chance to see through the deception by adding up the pieces of the puzzle that just doesn't seem to match.

I'm...not entirely sure what are you trying to say.
Are you suggesting I should fabricate the way the NPC's are shown to them out of proportion to trigger the desirable extreme reactions from the players?