[PF] Campaign world kinks

[Silus]

So for like the umpteenth time this year (Or at least in the past 3-5 months), I may be looking at running a PF home game with a homebrewed campaign world. The short of it is as follows:

1. High Magic (theocracies and magocracy are viable and used forms of government, cantrips are rather widely used spells and most anyone can learn to use magic with a bit of practice)

2. Medium tech (Industrial revolution type era. Steam and coal power are just starting to be a thing outside of Dwarf controlled areas, basic blackpowder firearms are commonplace in more tech-friendly locations and more advanced firearms are beginning to be produced)

3. Low Fantasy (Main races are those in the core book (Humans, elves, ect) along with Drow, Centaur, and Orcs. No dragons, misc oozes, magical beasts (there are exceptions) and so on are not a thing, though the lower reaches of the underground are a notable exception to the rule)

4. Planarly Locked (The world has NO access to any of the inner or outer planes beyond the etherial and shadow planes, and those are strictly limited to locations on the prime plane. Also, the Summoner class and most monster summoning spells do not exist at present)

Anyway, upon further thought, I've a few questions for the more experienced world builders out there. After all, last thing I want is things to get too broken one way or the other.

1. I was thinking of making the basic firearms (musket, blunderbuss and flintlock pistol) martial weapons with the Advanced and "other" firearms (dragon pistol for example) to still fall under the "Exotic" category. The basic firearms would have the cost lowered a bit (from 2000g to, say, 1500g) and the Advanced firearms would be 1.5x more costly and they would need to get them specially made. I'm not sure if this a good idea or not and would appreciate feedback on this.

2. Are there any foreseeable consequences with having Divine magic starting to fall out of favor? I was thinking that thousands of years into the past, Divine magic was the ONLY tolerated magic and that the Gods had a more active role in society (miracles were fairly common'ish for example). This however ended and the people turned their attention to arcane magic and tech with the Divine magic users taking up a similar role to the modern day churches and religions. The general plan is to have the Divine magic come back into prominence via a campaign involving "unlocking" the world to the planes.

3. The no Summoner/Summoned Monster abilities/spells/classes. Good idea or bad idea? Again, to be "unlocked" when the world is opened to planar travel (as mentioned in #2).

4. Encounter related question, but how well do you figure a "Run and hide from the alien monstrosity that is stalking the party" kind of thing would go? Outwit the creature, scurry through openings that it cannot get through and try to keep it off the party's trail. I was thinking of doing it in an underground area with a +Size, Advanced, possibly templated Gug.

5. Is there a table for about how much gold a player ought to have by what level? I don't want to dump bags of gold on the players, but at the same time I don't want to screw them on rewards.

6. Are there any game breaking class/race combos I ought to keep an eye out for? I plan on letting most of the Pathfinder books be usable (as long as the races and racial stuff is kept within line with the above restrictions) so, again, not sure what I ought to be on the lookout for.

7. Any creatures I ought to outright avoid? Looking at throwing mostly aberrations and a few choice monsters at the party when they go underground.

8. Ought I avoid templates on the BBEG? Was going to use the Nightmare Creature template (Advanced Bestiary) on a Denizen of Leng with levels in Summoner as the BBEG (Calling things from the dark beyond to assist in unlocking the plane their own way to allow for mass raiding and slave taking, inadvertently ripping the barriers down so that planar rifts eventually tear the world apart. You know, the usual).

[Theprettiestorc]

I would say most of what you have to look out for are the magic classes, truthfully. As far as gamebreaking goes.

Especially summoner, from what I've seen firsthand.

Otherwise, the firearms thing is pretty good - would gunslingers automatically gain proficiency with advanced firearms, or would they, too, need advanced training?

[Silus]

I would say most of what you have to look out for are the magic classes, truthfully. As far as gamebreaking goes.

Especially summoner, from what I've seen firsthand.

Otherwise, the firearms thing is pretty good - would gunslingers automatically gain proficiency with advanced firearms, or would they, too, need advanced training?

I could see them gaining the proficiency off the bat (In one type of firearm), but they'd have to shell out at minimum 6k gold for a revolver (7500 for a rifle and shotgun and 10k for a Pepperbox Rifle and Double Barrel Shotgun), so no advanced firearms right off the bat, though I may very well drop the prices back down to standard, depending on how things go.

And up until the end of the first campaign "arc", Summoners and summoning magic (Summon Monster #, some of Nature's Ally and a few others) will not be available. Think it would be a good idea for a caster (Charisma based casters only really) to, once the class has opened, jump to equal levels in Summoner?

[Theprettiestorc]

Hmm. Well, you said anyone could learn magic...

You may want to homebrew some things. Make a system where there really aren't caster classes(at least, not pure) so that you can impliment the additional spells. Have a Paladin with levels in spells like a Cleric! Have the fighter or such with a few enhancement spells.

It would take some doing for a system like that, though.

[shizukanashi]

I am running a game on these forums that is somewhat similar to your world.

1) That sounds fine. I will say that when designing your own world its often better to go simple, what you have is pretty good, but it sounds like you want something right in between early and commonplace firearms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms) (which seems to be what most people want) why not just do something right in between the two, and keep it simple. I will note for my Campaign I am using "Guns everywhere" as its mostly an Old West setting...I am starting to thing that Commonplace guns would have better fit my objectives though.

2) Other than limiting your players choices, and possibly upsetting your Patheon of Gods I see no issue with limiting Divine Magic. You have a plan to re-implement it too so its really a Moot issue.

3) Pretty much the same thing with limiting Conjuration. Its not really a world shattering issue if I can't make a character that summons, and you have a plan to "unlock" it....again Moot.

4) This actually sounds like an awesome encounter, if you can work out the mechanics! Be sure your players understand that they are supposed to "run and hide" though. Often Players will Meta game without even knowing it and think "Oh the DM would not give us an encounter we can't win." Then you have Leroy Jenkins and a big fat TPK, or have to pull your punches to save the PC's, either of which would turn an epic encounter into a garbage one.

5) Wealth by level chart. table 12-4 and 12-5 page 399.

6) I think Pathfinder helped to curb the balance issues 3.5 had but didn't solve them. Tier 1 is still tier 1 they are just low end tier 1. Tier 3 is still tier 3 its just high end. Summoner's can pretty much solo if played right. All magic is generally pretty powerful, but as far as balance is concerned you as a DM control that. Fight fire with fire.

7) Again Pathfinder guys are old 3.5 guys that left Wizards, creatures are pretty balanced and not even included if they didn't already work in 3.5. I do think there are a few things like Hell Hounds being CR 2 that you can get with a Summon Monster II instead of say a IV but..

8) Templates are awesome.

[Silus]

1) That sounds fine. I will say that when designing your own world its often better to go simple, what you have is pretty good, but it sounds like you want something right in between early and commonplace firearms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms) (which seems to be what most people want) why not just do something right in between the two, and keep it simple. I will note for my Campaign I am using "Guns everywhere" as its mostly an Old West setting...I am starting to thing that Commonplace guns would have better fit my objectives though.

4) This actually sounds like an awesome encounter, if you can work out the mechanics! Be sure your players understand that they are supposed to "run and hide" though. Often Players will Meta game without even knowing it and think "Oh the DM would not give us an encounter we can't win." Then you have Leroy Jenkins and a big fat TPK, or have to pull your punches to save the PC's, either of which would turn an epic encounter into a garbage one.


1. Well I don't really want the players to go buying up like 6 pistols a person or such. I may as well be running D20 Modern in that case. Now having the players pick up firearms as situational weapons, that's all well and good. Anti-armor weapons basically.

4. I was thinking of having the big monster, whatever it may be, tear apart some creature that is known to the players to be very hard to kill (something in the vein of a Purple Worm or something. Snake-like at any rate). Pick it up, tear it apart, start eating it, then, maybe, notice the players.

And then they run.

[Coidzor]

1. I was thinking of making the basic firearms (musket, blunderbuss and flintlock pistol) martial weapons with the Advanced and "other" firearms (dragon pistol for example) to still fall under the "Exotic" category. The basic firearms would have the cost lowered a bit (from 2000g to, say, 1500g) and the Advanced firearms would be 1.5x more costly and they would need to get them specially made. I'm not sure if this a good idea or not and would appreciate feedback on this.

My understanding is that you could halve the costs of most firearms with little incident, so you probably don't need to increase the price of the exotic firearms, especially if you're going to have it be a teched up setting.


2. Are there any foreseeable consequences with having Divine magic starting to fall out of favor? I was thinking that thousands of years into the past, Divine magic was the ONLY tolerated magic and that the Gods had a more active role in society (miracles were fairly common'ish for example). This however ended and the people turned their attention to arcane magic and tech with the Divine magic users taking up a similar role to the modern day churches and religions. The general plan is to have the Divine magic come back into prominence via a campaign involving "unlocking" the world to the planes.

Would you please restate exactly what you mean here?


3. The no Summoner/Summoned Monster abilities/spells/classes. Good idea or bad idea? Again, to be "unlocked" when the world is opened to planar travel (as mentioned in #2).

It's not the end of the world unless someone is dead set on being a summoner.


4. Encounter related question, but how well do you figure a "Run and hide from the alien monstrosity that is stalking the party" kind of thing would go? Outwit the creature, scurry through openings that it cannot get through and try to keep it off the party's trail. I was thinking of doing it in an underground area with a +Size, Advanced, possibly templated Gug.

Typically not very well, since it's difficult to communicate this when you want to do so. At least, not without killing half of the party in what they'll almost certainly feel was a "'rocks fall,' **** move" or at least completely blindsiding them. Or fear-effect railroading them...


5. Is there a table for about how much gold a player ought to have by what level? I don't want to dump bags of gold on the players, but at the same time I don't want to screw them on rewards.

...Pretty sure WBL is still a thing, but I haven't looked at that portion of the rules in PF to confirm what's what.


6. Are there any game breaking class/race combos I ought to keep an eye out for? I plan on letting most of the Pathfinder books be usable (as long as the races and racial stuff is kept within line with the above restrictions) so, again, not sure what I ought to be on the lookout for.

Mostly it's still the same-old, same-old, well-played, well-planned fullcasters can break the game.

[avr]

Exactly how would people turn away from say, Cure Disease spells? Unless there's a better mundane or arcane solution sick people are always going to want divine magic.

If the players won't run, your search and hide will be a straight fight. Unless it obviously moves slower than they do, some players won't even consider running. Some won't anyway. Plan with that in mind.

For WBL: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering#TOC-Table-Character-Wealth-by-Level

The paragon surge trick is the only actual gamebreaker I can think of short of some tricks with summoning (which wizards can do just as well as the summoner class).

PF gives abilities to every casting class which will make a jump to summoner a noticeable shift. So long as they're OK with the shift in flavour losing those abilities would entail, that should be fine tho.

[Silus]

Would you please restate exactly what you mean here?


Well Divine magic still is a thing, but the practitioners of Divine magic are far fewer than those that practice arcane (with the exception of Druids). This is mostly due to the whole planar lock thing and the lack of direct, if any, contact with the deities in question. A town would be lucky to have their own cleric, but would likely have at least two or three people that could cast at least mundane arcane spells for example.

[Coidzor]

Well, healing and healing items might be a bit problematic if divine casters are that rare. Though I suppose it depends on what we're talking about with a town, though. Roughly somewhere between less than 1 in 2000 or less than 1 in 5000.

What sort of level spread are you using?

[avr]

This will make any remaining divine casters more powerful, influential, and able to charge higher than list prices for their spells.

[Silus]

Well, healing and healing items might be a bit problematic if divine casters are that rare. Though I suppose it depends on what we're talking about with a town, though. Roughly somewhere between less than 1 in 2000 or less than 1 in 5000.

What sort of level spread are you using?

Well rare'ish. And the high level divine casters (again, aside from Druids) will likely be found in capitals or major metropolitan centers, whereas a lvl 2-4 cleric would likely be living in a town, with villages having to get their divine magics from a larger settlement.

And I was thinking of starting them at level 1 then taking the first part of the campaign up to ~lvl 10-12, then the second part going until it is finished.

Idea for the second part:
After dropping the Leng creature, it tells the party that they have stopped nothing and only delayed the inevitable. Roll a 1d4+1 and that's how many years until the planar barriers break down and stuff starts going all to hell (literally in some cases). So then it's up to the party to diplomancy their way through the world leaders, trying to gain support, troops and resources for the war, in addition to researching the enemy.

After the time limit is up, a planar bleed starts...somewhere (probably the city they first saw the Leng creature) and starts spewing out battalions of Devils. The objective now is to 1) defend the populated areas, 2) contain the threat, and 3) stop the planar bleed.

I was thinking of making stats for the regiments and turn the thing into a rather elaborate D&D/chess game with the players controlling whatever allied forces they have, and the devils being controlled by myself.

Ideas for the recruitable troops:

Druids: Pack masters, Giant Eagle riders, Support/buffing druids, Treants

Arcane casters: Magus regiments, battle casters, research wizards (Scry enough to unlock summoning for troops, Summoner regiments, and the Dismissal/Banishment spells)

Divine: A single Paladin regiment (Paladin/Cavalier gestalts), healing corps.

Tech users: Dwarven siege engines (cannons mostly), riflemen regiments (mounted and not), airships

Magitech (Affiliated with neither magic or technology): Lifespark Golems (Clockwork mostly)

Racial: Centaur outriders (ranged cavalry), Orc Fiendbinders (morally questionable summoning troops, limited numbers), Drow Fleshcrafters (Alchemists)

[Squirrel_Dude]

4. Planarly Locked (The world has NO access to any of the inner or outer planes beyond the etherial and shadow planes, and those are strictly limited to locations on the prime plane. Also, the Summoner class and most monster summoning spells do not exist at present)
Implications of this rule by RAW:
- Calling spells don't work
- Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster can't be used to call on extra-planar beings like elementals, devils, or angels.
- Teleportation magic doesn't work because it requires access to the astral plane

Other Possible Implications of the Rule:
- Channel Energy wouldn't work because there is no access to the positive or negative energy planes.
*There are larger implications of this in regards the presence of undead (depending on how you define them. If they are negative energy powered constructs, or just magic meats sacks or [theory that impacts that morality of undead here]. )
*Healing spells may not work because they also say you are channeling the energy through you.
- Aasimar/Tieflings/Oreads/etc. wouldn't exist as there are no/few outsiders to crossbreed with humans.
- The dead can not be raised if soul could leave but not return to the material plane
- There are a bunch of souls floating around the material plane


The short it: just be aware how much D&D/PF magic relies on the planes, and make sure magic can still work effectively within your world when they are removed.

[Jeff the Green]

Hmm. Well, you said anyone could learn magic...

You may want to homebrew some things. Make a system where there really aren't caster classes(at least, not pure) so that you can impliment the additional spells. Have a Paladin with levels in spells like a Cleric! Have the fighter or such with a few enhancement spells.

It would take some doing for a system like that, though.

Well, you could start with my Unprotected Casting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235603) skill. I designed it for a world with lots of raw dangerous magic floating around that was easy to tap into but hard to control. So you could buy a spell for 2-7 skill points and use it 1/day, at the cost of some damage and possibly being dazed or disintegrated. As is, it's a panic-button, but you could drop the damage and disintegration without a big problem, which would make high-skill point classes a bit more valuable.

[Gavinfoxx]

You know people in real life, when going to war, carried like three or four pistols on their person?

These people were even armored knights who did this, fighting alongside their more traditionally lance-armed brethren...

[Silus]

Implications of this rule by RAW:
- Calling spells don't work
- Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster can't be used to call on extra-planar beings like elementals, devils, or angels.
- Teleportation magic doesn't work because it requires access to the astral plane

Other Possible Implications of the Rule:
- Channel Energy wouldn't work because there is no access to the positive or negative energy planes.
*There are larger implications of this in regards the presence of undead (depending on how you define them. If they are negative energy powered constructs, or just magic meats sacks or [theory that impacts that morality of undead here]. )
*Healing spells may not work because they also say you are channeling the energy through you.
- Aasimar/Tieflings/Oreads/etc. wouldn't exist as there are no/few outsiders to crossbreed with humans.
- The dead can not be raised if soul could leave but not return to the material plane
- There are a bunch of souls floating around the material plane


The short it: just be aware how much D&D/PF magic relies on the planes, and make sure magic can still work effectively within your world when they are removed.

I suppose there'll be a lot of handwaving going on then =P If it gets brought up I'll just BS something I suppose. It'll all work properly after the first half anyway.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I suppose there'll be a lot of handwaving going on then =P If it gets brought up I'll just BS something I suppose. It'll all work properly after the first half anyway.Off the top of my head, and easier way to handwave it is to say that extended travel in the astral plane is impossible, but travel that lasts less than (let's just say some random number) 6 seconds is possible.

[Coidzor]

That reminds me. Mass-produced, commonplace basic firearms probably should not cost more than masterwork, bespoke weapons as a matter of course.

Even Paizo recommends cutting the cost significantly if you're going with "commonplace" guns.
Commonplace Guns (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/firearms.html): While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

[Silus]

Off the top of my head, and easier way to handwave it is to say that extended travel in the astral plane is impossible, but travel that lasts less than (let's just say some random number) 6 seconds is possible.

*Nods in agreement*

And maybe channeling would work in that it just draws energy from the positive/negative energy planes, and that energy itself is easier to pull through the barriers than sentient creatures. Ditto for souls of the dead.


That reminds me. Mass-produced, commonplace basic firearms probably should not cost more than masterwork, bespoke weapons as a matter of course.

Even Paizo recommends cutting the cost significantly if you're going with "commonplace" guns.

Ooooh, I'm gonna use this =D

[Gavinfoxx]

If people want to be raised, you have to use one of the methods of trapping the soul in some device, so that it is present to be raised? There are a few methods of doing that in PF, without grandfathering in stuff from 3.5e, right?

[Coidzor]

Now that you mention it... Thinaun should definitely be grandfathered in though if no analog exists in PF.

<_<
>_>

Just saying.

[Silus]

If people want to be raised, you have to use one of the methods of trapping the soul in some device, so that it is present to be raised? There are a few methods of doing that in PF, without grandfathering in stuff from 3.5e, right?

Unless we take a combo of Rule 0 and a bit of "the magic works by magic" or something similar.

--

I was also tinkering with the idea that the world was not always planarly locked (back when the gods had more of a hand in things) and that there are a handful of remnants that have survived over the thousand or so years.

1. A Sphinx that guards the only depository of extraplanar knowledge. Think the Library episode from Avatar to get the inspiration.

2. A half-Fey elf (a moderately powerful monarch that rarely, if ever, flexes her power) and a human vampire (LN Magus, the queen's confidant, bodyguard and rumored consort). Idea for them is that they become the PC's patrons for when the world is in danger. Half-fey stuff hidden until barriers come down and last minute aid can be gained (two words: Bandersnatch Chariot)

Those are the only two that I have at the moment though. Thoughts?

[Coidzor]

Seem good so far.

I can't think of anything aside from Golems or Elementals hidden in/powering relics/remnants from a lost Golden Age.

Or like Mr. Pump...

[Silus]

Seem good so far.

I can't think of anything aside from Golems or Elementals hidden in/powering relics/remnants from a lost Golden Age.

Or like Mr. Pump...

I was actually gonna have a magitech city where their whole thing is making golems for various jobs/services. Even a short plot where a golem (a Clockwork Golem similar to Orianna from League of Legends) gains awareness and escapes. Party has to track it down and make a judgement call on what to do with it.

[Coidzor]

I was actually gonna have a magitech city where their whole thing is making golems for various jobs/services. Even a short plot where a golem (a Clockwork Golem similar to Orianna from League of Legends) gains awareness and escapes. Party has to track it down and make a judgement call on what to do with it.

Golems are still made using enslaved elementals/elemental spirits in PF, right?

[Silus]

Golems are still made using enslaved elementals/elemental spirits in PF, right?

Canon, yes, though I'd just rule that it's advanced, specialized magic, like magical robotics or something.

Edit:

Ok, another issue has cropped up.

So the general idea so far is that the PCs will do a few odd jobs, get on their feet, make a name for themselves, yadda yadda yadda. Anyway, they'll eventually attract the attention of royalty. Throughout the campaign, said royalty (a queen) will aid them as best as they can, with them acting as a diplomat on behalf of the players during the second half of the campaign.

Problem is, all I got is the race and name: Queen Ju'Leia (pronounced "Joo-Leia", haven't pinned down the spelling yet), a female Fey Creature Elf. She'll have been in hiding since the barrier went up a thousand or so years before (I don't think fey really age at all anyway), using the Fey Creature's Change Shape ability to hide her Fey nature. Her "badass moment" is late in the war when the Devils start their assault on the Druid's city/tree. She goes to fetch reinforcements and returns with a Rohan sized force of Cold Riders (the Druid's city is in the magic rich north) and leads the charge from the bow of a landbound galleon bristling with cannons and swivel mounted bombards, pulled by a pair of Bandersnatches.

Anyway, short of it is, I need help figuring out what sort of class she'd be should things go south and I find that I need a proper stat-block for her. Her bodyguard would likely mop the floor with the party though (Male Human LN Dread Vampire Magus 15).